What is purpose of life ?

[anajmi]

And no I am not dismissing these incidents as trivial, I do not want the guilty to go unpunished, but my beliefs tell me that they won't cause there exists a God, your beliefs lead only to despair, cause in this life these monsters aren't going to be punished and according to you there is no life after death!!

[asif]

Khairan,
You said

"Any physicist will note that the Theory of Gravity is not a Law for exactly this reason: no one can undeniably prove that the next time an apple gets tossed in the air, it will in fact fall to the earth, and science to date can conceive of no way TO prove it. "

Khairan,
You have given some ideas regarding Theory & Law. etc. Though I understand that my post below has nothing to do with your definition of religion /God etc ,I would like to correct some ideas
There is difference between Law & Theory
Theory is constructed on the basis of theorem.(Assuming it is correctly constructed). A theorem itself is derived on the basis of some axioms. Axiom are certain statements which are 'true'. Now once the theory is made( & made correctly) then ideally the theory is not to be challeneged .You can challenge the axioms on which theory is made(that can go wrong) and hence disprove the theory but you cannot directly challenge the theory as it is based on unassaialble 'axioms' . Like eg we have Einstein's Theory of relativity or Hawkins 'Area Theorem'. You cannot challenge Theory of relativity directly .You may question the basis that Speed of Light is not constant . But if you agree that speed of light is a constant then Einstien's theory is based on unassailable mathematics which is undisputable.

But a law is made on the basis of hypotheis & experimentation. A law defines how things are governed on the basis of some formula .It is observed to be always true but there is no guarantee that it cannot be falsified.Like you said Theory of gravity ,It is actualy a Law and not a theory. or we have Laws of Thermodynamics. Zeroth Law of Thermo D says heat flows from high temperature to low temperature till equilibrium is attained. This is a law as it is always observed to be true and has never been violated.Experimentations & observation can disprove a law.

[nausicaa]

Any physicist will note that the Theory of Gravity is not a Law for exactly this reason: no one can undeniably prove that the next time an apple gets tossed in the air, it will in fact fall to the earth, and science to date can conceive of no way TO prove it.</I>

That's because scientists (excepting mathemticians) never talk about PROVING things. They just describe what's observed in nature and make predictions that can be put to test. So if you make a theory and put it to test and it works out you believe in it. If someone comes along and gives a better theory, then you consign the old one to the history books and study the new one. The important thing is that the theory has to be testable.

-N

[asif]

Khairan,

I wrote following in the previous post.
"I say that I am meeting Imam Tayyab evry day and talking to him daily . It is my faith / belief. Will youy accept it ? "

Do you believe me? Do you say that I make sense and what I am saying is true? Can you prove me wrong? Why don't u try ur hands in proving it wrong!!
If you believe me then there is no point in talking to u as you are not capable of using ur mind(I don't mean to offend u as it is just a hypothetical situation) . But if you don't believe it then I need to know the reason why? How can you not believe me without disproving me? That is ur logic ,right?

That is what u said regarding disproving angels ,jinns in Quaran .U want the scienetific community to disprove angels/jins just bcoz they are mentioned in one primitive book? Till then u wil continue to believe in it? Which sane mind will listen to u?

I have no objection to thiest believing in God etc. But the problem comes when they start beleiving it to be true. If u remeber the original arguments occured bcoz u were hellbent on proving that religion & science go together .
Man , science is based on solid reasoning , proofs and not on some shitty belief. That is why they are mutually exclusive at the fundamnetal level.

[nausicaa]

Anajmi,

I never said anything directed at you. Those were Asif's comments.

-N

[anajmi]

I apologize. Please forgive me.

[anajmi]

I redirect my comments to asif.

[anajmi]

asif,

It depends on the kind of person one is talking to or one is hearing from.

No one is going to believe you if you say that you talk to the Imam cause everyone knows the kind of person you are. The same thing said by Syedna is believed by thousands and the same thing if said by a prophet would be believed by millions.

""I have no objection to thiest believing in God etc. But the problem comes when they start beleiving it to be true.""

In the same vein, ""I have no problem in atheists not believing in God, but the problem comes when they start believing that he truly does not exists.""

I don't think many are going to believe you after reading these kinds of sentences from you!!

[Khairan]

> I wrote following in the previous post.
"I say that I am meeting Imam Tayyab evry day and talking to him daily . It is my faith / belief. Will youy accept it ? "

asif,

certainly I would not believe you just because you said it was so. However, you are assuming that any belief in God is inherently unreasonable, therefore anybody who believes in God does so without reason. I will agree that many who are religious accept the traditions of their parents and forefathers unquestioningly. However, what you are claiming is that there is no difference between faith and blind faith. I insist that there is.

Also, you seem to think that I require and somehow believe that there is scientific proof for the existence of God. I think no such thing, though I do think there is a great deal of evidence. I will maintain that the only truly "scientific" standpoint is agnosticism, because all other views incorporate some measure of guess work.

Further, I maintain that it is imperative that there BE an element of faith in religion. It is this element that gives us the opportunity to not be devoid of moral agency. Everything we do is a concerted choice, and no matter where we get our values from, we decide where they come from and what to believe in. Even if you only believe in something because your mommy and daddy told you so, you are still responsible for that choice and the consequences of it.

The Qur'an says that man is simultaneously made in the best of moulds and fallen to become the lowest of the low. It is our choices and our actions that determine which of those we become, and choosing to do good despite our capacity to do ill is what gives a human moral stature.

The whole point of that lengthy tirade was simply this: the element of faith in religion is not a flaw, it is an asset.
If we didn't have religion to fight over, we'd have something else. You think other animals don't fight over such things as land, resources, and sex? We're just more efficient at it, and that is a function of our intelligence, not our relgion. Humans are cruel because we've got imagination, not because we've got God.

To which of course, the natural response is that we've got God because we've got imagination, but I do go on and I think I'll stop for now...

regards

[Khairan]

> The claim that there is no God is easily falsifiable, just show the existence of a God.

nausicaa,

you are correct in saying that the atheistic position can be negated by certain proof of God's existence. However, here's where the issue of proving negatives comes in. I decide that I will conduct the following experiment to prove the existence of God: I will pray to God to turn my cat into an orange talking flamingo named Bob. If my "experiment" works, I can say with more confidence than I could before, though not with absolute certainty, that God does in fact exist. If my experiment fails, however, I have learned nothing except that I did not design an effective experiment for proving the existence of God.

And that's why you can't ever prove a negative: it is always possible that somewhere out there is an experimental paradigm that will falsify the premise in question. This is what makes the atheistic position inherently untenable, at least from a scientific perspective - you can only continually show that it fails to be disproven, and nothing more. And if you choose to withold belief in God until his existence is proven, that makes you an agnostic, not an atheist.

I think I have now entered the realm of bandying about semantics, so I'll try to stop harping on this subject now...

[asif]

Anajmi,
I don't think I made such offensive statements which prompted you to say
"Every body knows what kind of person you are etc".
How do you know? This is what I mean that believers start squirming ,getting childish whenever aspersions are casted.
"Just bcoz you are saying so no one will believe it"
What does this mean? A lie is still a lie ,truth is still a truth, wether spoken by me or Syedna or prophet.Just bcoz millions believe prophet ,thousands believe Syedna or no one believes me ,how does this change truth or lie?

If the number of believers a person has is the quantum of measuring truth/lies then Syedna is definitely speaker of the truth then the reformists.

[anajmi]

Asif,

The only person squirming over here is you.

Everyone knows that you do not believe in God and that you do not believe in anyone who believes in God so it was a pretty straigthforward statement for me to make that if you say that you talk to the Imam in your dreams, nobody is going to believe you.

That God exists is a lie, is your opinion. Can you prove that God does not exist??

I didn't say that the Syedna or the Prophet are speaking the truth, I said that depending upon the type of person you are, more and more people will believe you. The prophet was known never to speak a lie, he was an extremely respected person in Mecca, even then most did not believe him in the beginning. He had to go through 23 years of extreme times to make people believe or understand and you want to pull a statement out of your ass and want people to believe.

Fine Syedna speaks more truth than the reformists and the Sunnis speak more truth than the Shias and the theists speak more truth than the atheists, if we are playing the numbers game then 95% of the people on earth believe in God.

[anajmi]

And when you say "a lie is a lie and truth is truth" kindly point out if you statement of talking to the Imam was a lie or the truth.

[asif]

Anajmi,
Pls go thru my previous posts in this thread, This " talking to Imam " thing was in response to an argument by Khairan.Obviously it is a false statement ,just a supposition .Pls have teh context right before jumping in the fray.

[anajmi]

Exactly my point. You are known to make false statements and then you want people to believe you!!

[asif]

Anajmi,
Lets put an end to this debate here coz its waste of time when talking to u

[nausicaa]

Arguing with Anajmi is like fighting with a pig in shit. You both get dirty and the pig enjoys it.

-N

[asif]

Nausica,
That was put in a very apt way:).
Anajmi,
So it is not just me who felt that way but others also have same complaint. You cannot c reason & then argue like a child without even getting an idea of what u r talking abt.Be mature.& don't forget that terminologies u used for me(like "pulling statements out of ur ass" etc) can be reciprocated to u in an equally fitting manner, just that I don't want to use this public forum for it.

[anajmi]

sure others have a complaint against me. It is obvious isn't it. Have I said anything that is wrong? Nope. Have you or anybody else proved anything that you say to be valid. Nope.

I wouldn't mind being a pig in shit than fuel for a fire which you guys are going to be.

All I am asking is to prove your points. All you intelligent folks can come up with is "Anajmi is 9 years old","Anajmi is a pig"

Tch, Tch. And these are the people who think that their way of life is better.

[anajmi]

This is what atheists normally do, since they cannot rebut the content they start attacking the source. Guess they can't do any better.

[anajmi]

Asif,

just one more question.

I said "And when you say "a lie is a lie and truth is truth" kindly point out if you statement of talking to the Imam was a lie or the truth. "

You said "Anajmi,
Pls go thru my previous posts in this thread, This " talking to Imam " thing was in response to an argument by Khairan.Obviously it is a false statement ,just a supposition .Pls have teh context right before jumping in the fray. "

Then I said "Exactly my point. You are known to make false statements and then you want people to believe you!! "

and then you said "Anajmi,
Lets put an end to this debate here coz its waste of time when talking to u "

Would it have been better for you if I had said something like "Asif you are right, even though you are making a false statement, all muslims should believe you" Would you then have thought that we were having a great argument??

Well, better luck next time. All of you atheists should hope that you do not get into an argument with someone like me, cause otherwise you know what you'll get in your faces!!

[taaweel]

There is only one purpose of life - that is to get freedom from this physical world and attain salvation.

[taaweel]

The only goal of our lives is to reach our original homes in Jannat.
There is a systematic way in which this is done.
Aqa Maula(tus) holds the key.
For the rest, bad luck.

[Muslim First]

.

Taweel, AS

"Aqa Maula(tus) holds the key."

Can you further explain it.

Does he have only key?

Wasalaam

.