Imam Musa al-Kadhim

[Hanif]

Now here is the Bible version of 12 princes from Ishmael, and please note their names do not match the names of your Imams. It is not Genesis 17 but Genesis 25.

Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham:

13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,

14 And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,

15 Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:

16These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.

[Hanif]

He shall conquer the whole world from the east to the west. So long will he remain hidden from the eyes of his followers and friends that the belief in his leadership will remain only in those hearts which have been tested by Allah for faith."



Jabir said: "O Messenger of Allah! Will his followers benefit from his seclusion?" The Prophet said: "Yes! by Him who sent me with prophethood! They will be guided by his light, and benefit from his leadership during his seclusion, just as people benefit from the sun even though it is hidden in the clouds. O Jabir! This is from the hidden secrets of Allah and the treasured knowledge of Allah. So guard it except from the people who deserve to know." (Kifayatul Athar, by al-Khazzaz, p53).

We haven't seen Muslim leader who has conquered from East to West except the Fatimid Imams for a brief period. That too not all the world.

Now, I understand where the story about the sun behind the clouds emerged from. I still maintain everything on earth will perish if the Sun remains behind the clouds for thousands of years. I doubt if the Prophet uttered such words.

Now, to muddle the waters I can say that the 12th Imam of the Bohoras was Mahdi. His name was Muhammad al-Mahdi. His father's name was the same as the Prophet's father's name, i.e. Abdullah, i.e. Radi Abdullah. And he was succeeded by his son AL-Qaim. Now, if all the ahadith we heard are true why can't they be in reference to this Imam Al Mahdi.

This is a historical fact and not from any ahadith.

I went to the site your provided and read it over and over again, and and the more I read the more I came out believing a lot of it was concocted to convince the community. For instance, there were quotes from Juvayni and Ibn Taymim both of whom came many years after the prophet. Neither believed in Imamat.

I have in my possession a copy of what one of your former Sheikh's , with a large following, who has written about how th twelvers have manipulated the facts in favor of al-Kadhim.

I am not here to attack your beliefs. You can believe in what you want . However, one fact is clear, Imam Ismail wass designated the nass. Nass is divine. And Imam Ismaili died in Syria and his tomb is there.

Even if I concede Imam Ismail (the son of great greatgrand daughter of Imam al-Hasan, and a noble woman) died before Imam Jafar as-Sadiq, Musa al-Kazim, the son of a slave woman, can never have become Imam because, nass does not go sideways, it goes from father to son, and hence Muhammad bin Ismail would have been the next Imam.

I do not believe in ahadith, because they go where the wind blows. I cannot base my beliefs on such ahadith. The site you referred me to contains a hadith that states that the Prophet never spoke of 12 Caliphs. I can poke more holes but I do not like to criticise peoples beliefs. Just please do not try to sell your beliefs to us. Some of us do not buy them.

Bohoras who go to your Masjids to learn about their faith, are nuts. How can somebody learn about their faith from a rival faith.

What is wrong in investing money in books and researching the truth.

[humble_servant_us]

I am sorry but i did not understand what you intended to convey in the first 2 posts out of the three.

I have in my possession a copy of what one of your former Sheikh's , with a large following, who has written about how th twelvers have manipulated the facts in favor of al-Kadhim.

This would be intresting to study. It would be good if you can give me the sheikh's name and his book so that i can look into it.

I am not here to attack your beliefs. You can believe in what you want . However, one fact is clear, Imam Ismail wass designated the nass. Nass is divine. And Imam Ismaili died in Syria and his tomb is there.

Even if I concede Imam Ismail (the son of great greatgrand daughter of Imam al-Hasan, and a noble woman) died before Imam Jafar as-Sadiq, Musa al-Kazim, the son of a slave woman, can never have become Imam because, nass does not go sideways, it goes from father to son, and hence Muhammad bin Ismail would have been the next Imam.

If this is the argument which you are presenting for Hz Ismail, the same argument applies for Imam Musa Kadhim(As). He was the son of a Imam, his grave is in Kazmain, and the next Imam was also his son Imam Ali Reza (as). Imamat is still not sideways. By the way being a son of slave woman has nothing to do with Imamat.

The reason why i presented the hadith of 12 caliphs after the prophet(pbuh) because it has been accepted as authentic by both shias and sunnis, so that could be the starting point of discussion. However if you do not agree with the hadith, i would like you to present a hadith from the prophet(pbuh) regarding the Imams of Bohra sects. For understanding point of view it is ok to have this from Bohra books.

I believe in the necessity of Imamat and accept it. To the best of my understanding i have accepted the 12 imams of the shias as the true divinely appointed imams and believe the other line of imams are either self declared or elected by the people. I cannot accept the Bohra Imams just because i was born a Bohra. I am open to understand the imamat of Bohras , i would appreciate if you could present hadith from prophet(pbuh) to support this line.
Shias are presenting hadith from prophet(pbuh) regarding who the 12 imams are. You could debate on this , which is fine. Likewise what do Bohras have from the prophet(pbuh) in support of their line of imams.

Bohoras who go to your Masjids to learn about their faith, are nuts. How can somebody learn about their faith from a rival faith.

There is nothing like a rival faith. Why do you think shias are your rivals. If we are sincere in knowing about Islam we should be ready to listen to all it could be sunnis, shias,wahabis etc. and then it is our intellect which decides what is right or wrong.

[Muslim First]

Hadith of the Twelve Caliphs [A Sunni Perspective]
http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBay ... liphs.html

[Muslim First]

There is nothing like a rival faith. Why do you think shias are your rivals. If we are sincere in knowing about Islam we should be ready to listen to all it could be sunnis, shias,wahabis etc. and then it is our intellect which decides what is right or wrong.

Khabhi Khabhi upni intellect per parda gir jaata he.

[Q 2:7] Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

[Hanif]

I am sorry but i did not understand what you intended to convey in the first 2 posts out of the three

Hanif: In my first post I quoted the Bible. Your site said the 12 princes are mentioned in the Bible.

Now look at the names in the Bible, do they match your Imams’ names? NO!

I have in my possession a copy of what one of your former Sheikh's , with a large following, who has written about how the twelvers have manipulated the facts in favor of al-Kadhim.This would be intresting to study. It would be good if you can give me the sheikh's name and his book so that i can look into it.

Hanif: The name of the Sheikh is Seth Carney. He wrote a treatise: The Paradise of Enlightenment.

A treatise on Ontology, Exoteric and Esoteric Imamah, and Spiritual Practice in Seven Chapters.

It will surprise you or rather shock you that he opens his treatise with the picture of Agha Khan. In fact, I am told, he wanted to convert to Ismailism (Nizarism), together with his followers, but Ismailis refused to let him or others in. Don’t ask me why. Only the Ismailis know. For some reason they do not welcome conversion. Not even for love and marriage.

Hanif:I am not here to attack your beliefs. You can believe in what you want . However, one fact is clear, Imam Ismail was designated the nass. Nass is divine. And Imam Ismaili died in Syria and his tomb is there.

Even if I concede Imam Ismail (the son of great greatgrand daughter of Imam al-Hasan, and a noble woman) died before Imam Jafar as-Sadiq, Musa al-Kazim, the son of a slave woman, can never have become Imam because, nass does not go sideways, it goes from father to son, and hence Muhammad bin Ismail would have been the next Imam

If this is the argument which you are presenting for Hz Ismail, the same argument applies for Imam Musa Kadhim(As). He was the son of a Imam, his grave is in Kazmain, and the next Imam was also his son Imam Ali Reza (as). Imamat is still not sideways. By the way being a son of slave woman has nothing to do with Imamat.

Hanif: My argument is that Musa Kadhim was not designated Nass. Imam Ismail AS was designated Nass. He was very much loved by Imam Jafar As-Sadiq AS and his grandfather, Baqir AS. Historians say Imam Ismail was seen and recognized in Syria. There was a mock funeral so the enemies could not kill him.

Now, consider for a second, Imam Ismail was dead, Imam Jafar As-Sadiq did not designate Nass on Musa Kadhim. He declared himself an Imam after the passing of his father.

Nass is divine. Allah does not designate Nass and withdraw it. And all those accounts you have quoted about Imam Ismail AS being “a bad person” is your fitnah. To this day you create fitnah for the Ismailis and the Bohoras, but in particular the Ismailis who don’t give a damn. Shia Chat is full of it.

The reason why i presented the hadith of 12 caliphs after the prophet(pbuh) because it has been accepted as authentic by both shias and sunnis, so that could be the starting point of discussion

Hanif: I do not think the Sunnis accept the names of the Twelve Caliphs you quoted. In fact nobody does, not even the historians. Only Ithnas do that.

I presented to you the Sunni versions and the 12 caliphs they name are very much different from what you have named from your sources. Just the way, the names in the Bible do not match, neither do they match from the Sunni sources. In fact the same Sunni sources are quoted on your site and please show me wherein they agree with the names of your Imams.

One Sunni source even goes further and says the prophet did not talk of 12 caliphs. It is on your site.

However if you do not agree with the hadith, i would like you to present a hadith from the prophet(pbuh) regarding the Imams of Bohra sects. For understanding point of view it is ok to have this from Bohra books

Hanif: There is no such thing. Bohora books are not accessible. They have a lot of stuff to hide otherwise with all that money they collect, they can create an Institute and open up the study of their faith. Bohoras would not attend your Masjids or Sunni masjids if they were given the religious Taalim. Their leaders do not give access to their stuff to historians and when they do they make sure they show them altered copies .

I believe in the necessity of Imamat and accept it. To the best of my understanding i have accepted the 12 imams of the shias as the true divinely appointed imams and believe the other line of imams are either self declared or elected by the people. I cannot accept the Bohra Imams just because i was born a Bohra. I am open to understand the imamat of Bohras , i would appreciate if you could present hadith from prophet(pbuh) to support this line.

Hanif: Well, I do not believe in the 12 Imams of the twelve’s. Your line came to a halt too soon. I do believe in Fatimid Imams.

The Shia trradition (includes, Ithnas, Bohoras, Ismailis, Zaydis, etc.) is that there should be an Imam on earth amongst his people to guide them till Qiyama.

The only reference we have about Imam al-Mahdi is in Sunni and Twelvers ahadith. The Prophet had said approx. after 300 years Mahdi will rise in the west. His name would be the same as the Prophet’s name, I.e. Muhammad. His father’s name would be the same as that of his (Prophet’s) father’s name, I.e. Abdullah.

Thus this Mahdi was Muhammad al-Mahdi, son of Imam Radhi Abdullah, and he rose in the west.

That Mahdi did go from Middle East to Africa which is in the West and he and his progeny thus ruled Egypt for almost 300 years.

There is nothing like a rival faith. Why do you think shias are your rivals. If we are sincere in knowing about Islam we should be ready to listen to all it could be sunnis, shias,wahabis etc. and then it is our intellect which decides what is right or wrong.

Hanif: Poor choice of words on my part, brother. I should not have called it a rival faith. I apologise.

You are our sister faith. However, Bohoras could not learn anything new from you about Islam or their faith as the lines of Imamat are different. What they have to do is turn to the Fatimid history. Read the orations of their Imams who taught them about Islam. A friend told me that they like to go to Ithnas masjids to hear the Mohoram bayans. I respect Mohorram, but I would definitely not go anywhere outside my own masjid. I don’t even go to my masjid, because I have read about the history of Kerbala and I think it is time for us to move on.

Nowhere in Fatimid history was Mohoram observed. Only out of respect for the Twelvers who observed Mohorram and Ashura, did the Imams state that all businesses should be closed on Ashura out of respect for the Twelvers. But Ismailis were discouraged from attending the Ashura procession.


I think God has given us a biggest gift: Aql! Use your aql and do not rely on Mullahs and Maulavis.

Prophet SAW had said to gain knowledge, even if it means we have to go to China! Gain knowledge. Your brain is the biggest asset you have. Nobody can rob you of that. But do not be puppets! Use your gift to the best of your ability. Allah SWT would be pleased with you.

[Muslim First]

Nass is divine. Allah does not designate Nass and withdraw it. And all those accounts you have quoted about Imam Ismail AS being “a bad person” is your fitnah. To this day you create fitnah for the Ismailis and the Bohoras, but in particular the Ismailis who don’t give a damn. Shia Chat is full of it.

Hanif Bhai
Can you quote Aya of or Hadit telling us concept of Nass?

[humble_servant_us]

Hanif,

I think you have have mis-understood my post. Neither i have said that the names of 12 princes in Bible is same as that of shia imams, nor that of sunni imams is that of shias. I do not know from where you picked it up. Had the names been same, we would not be discussing this today.

We are talking about the number 12, which is same in shias, sunnis and in the Bible.

Hanif: My argument is that Musa Kadhim was not designated Nass. Imam Ismail AS was designated Nass. He was very much loved by Imam Jafar As-Sadiq AS and his grandfather, Baqir AS. Historians say Imam Ismail was seen and recognized in Syria. There was a mock funeral so the enemies could not kill him.
Now, consider for a second, Imam Ismail was dead, Imam Jafar As-Sadiq did not designate Nass on Musa Kadhim. He declared himself an Imam after the passing of his father.
Nass is divine. Allah does not designate Nass and withdraw it. And all those accounts you have quoted about Imam Ismail AS being “a bad person” is your fitnah. To this day you create fitnah for the Ismailis and the Bohoras, but in particular the Ismailis who don’t give a damn. Shia Chat is full of it.

We never call Hz. Ismail a bad person. He was a good person and surely Imam J. Sadiq(As) loved him. But it doesn;t mean he was the Imam. You have been always saying he was designated as the Imam, but unfortunately you have not provided any proof in this support.

Hanif: Well, I do not believe in the 12 Imams of the twelve’s. Your line came to a halt too soon. I do believe in Fatimid Imams.The Shia trradition (includes, Ithnas, Bohoras, Ismailis, Zaydis, etc.) is that there should be an Imam on earth amongst his people to guide them till Qiyama.

A halt means there is no Imam or Imamat has ended .We have a imam who is still alive and living.

The only reference we have about Imam al-Mahdi is in Sunni and Twelvers ahadith. The Prophet had said approx. after 300 years Mahdi will rise in the west. His name would be the same as the Prophet’s name, I.e. Muhammad. His father’s name would be the same as that of his (Prophet’s) father’s name, I.e. Abdullah.

Thus this Mahdi was Muhammad al-Mahdi, son of Imam Radhi Abdullah, and he rose in the west.

That Mahdi did go from Middle East to Africa which is in the West and he and his progeny thus ruled Egypt for almost 300 years.

I am quoting some tradition from the prophet(pbuh) regarding Imam Mahdi(as)
Prophet say:
"The world will not come to an end until a man from my family (ahl al-bayt), who will be called al-Mahdi, emerges to rule upon my community."

Majlisi, Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 51, p. 75, Se also, Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 1, p. 9.

Another tradition reported by Abu al-Hujaf quotes the Prophet saying three times:

"Listen to the good news about the Mahdi! He will rise at the time when people will be faced with severe conflict and the earth will be hit by a violent quake. He will fill the earth with justice and equity as it is filled with injustice and tyranny. He will fill the hearts of his followers with devotion and will spread justice everywhere."

Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 51, p. 74

The Prophet has declared:

The Day of Resurrection will not take place until the True Qa'im rises. This will happen when God permits him to do so. Anyone who follows him will be saved, and anyone who opposes him will perish. O servants of God, keep God in your mind and go towards him even if it happens to be on the ice, for indeed he is the caliph of God, the Exalted and Glorified, and my successor.

Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 51, p. 65; Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 6, p. 382

Was the earth filled with justice and equity during the time of Muhammed al-Mahdi , son of Imam Radhi Abdulla.
Did the world come to an end during the time of Muhammed al-Mahdi , son of Imam Radhi Abdulla.
Did the Day of Resurrection happen during his period.

Surely Muhammed al-Mahdi , son of Imam Radhi Abdulla. is not the AL-Mahdi(As) whom we are discussing.

I think God has given us a biggest gift: Aql! Use your aql and do not rely on Mullahs and Maulavis.
Prophet SAW had said to gain knowledge, even if it means we have to go to China! Gain knowledge. Your brain is the biggest asset you have. Nobody can rob you of that. But do not be puppets! Use your gift to the best of your ability. Allah SWT would be pleased with you.

I absolutely agree with you on this. It is best we use our intellect to decide what to accept and what to reject. With all due respect to your intellect, i leave it to you to follow what ever seems correct to you. I do not want to sell my ideology to you. I have just tried to remove some misunderstanding which you raised for shia faith and try to put some facts as is. Peace.

[Muslim First]

A halt means there is no Imam or Imamat has ended .We have a imam who is still alive and living.

And he is 1100 year old and walking around somewhere in this Dunya.
Is it not ridiculous ?

Can I have his address?

[Hanif]

Nass is divine. Allah does not designate Nass and withdraw it. And all those accounts you have quoted about Imam Ismail AS being “a bad person” is your fitnah. To this day you create fitnah for the Ismailis and the Bohoras, but in particular the Ismailis who don’t give a damn. Shia Chat is full of it.

Hanif Bhai
Can you quote Aya of or Hadit telling us concept of Nass?

MF,

If everything the Shias believe in were to be in the Qur'an then there would not be Shiism. What I am saying to the writer is a belief shared by all Shias, i.e. Twelvers, Bohoras, Ismailis, Zaydis, etc.

[Hanif]

Humble Servant,

If you want to continue this discussion, please send me a PM and we can continue. I think it would be better. If not then I shall end here. I would really like to continue this debate in private, because as you can see no other Bohoras, whose Imams you have challenged are interested in defending their beliefs.

In the meantime read Seth Carney's Book. If you cannot obtain it please let me know and I can arrange to have a chapter by chapter sent to you. I got this from an Ismaili friend who lent it to me to read, but I think he has some chapters on the net. The Sheikh was a good friend of his. He (sheikh) passed away a couple of years ago.

[Muslim First]

Br Hanif

"The doctrine of Imaamat: Apart from Prophets, there are another group of God appointed persons called Imams. These are people who are infallible and have access to a knowledge that is not accessible by ordinary people. The world cannot be empty of an Imam otherwise it will be destroyed. In the Islamic context, these individuals are 12, 21 or 49 people among the descendants of the Holy Prophet who are appointed by no one but God to lead Muslims. Any one who chooses any leader other than these are  misguided and not a complete believer. For twelvers the twelfth (last) of the above Imams is Mahdi and is alive and in occultation (now) for more than 1000 years and will come out of his occultation when God wants".

I have two questions

Question One: Where is the doctrine of IMAMAT in Quran ?
Question Two: How does the current IMAAM lead Shia?

This is a very sound question. Quran  is the book of guidance and we have been told by the Prophet that whenever we felt lost we can consult Quran  and it will never betray us. The above doctrine is not a minor issue, it is very important. It's importance is to the extend that Shia holds that because of not believing in this doctrine, 80% of Muslims are misguided and in fact not true believers. Well, which verses of Quran  have given us this doctrine?

Ask Shia to ONLY give you the verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries. Do this and you will see how helpless the arguments will be.

Now when you ask this from a Shia you receive different sorts of answers (and it is interesting that because the discussion is over the net, usually people cannot co-ordinate among themselves and you will receive responses from Shia that are in contradiction to each other and this in turns shows how baseless are the discussions).

Can you quote Ayas of Quran listing this important requirement that Belief in Imamat is necessary for Muslims?

[Rabeha Solar]

Humble Servant,

If you want to continue this discussion, please send me a PM and we can continue. I think it would be better. If not then I shall end here. I would really like to continue this debate in private, because as you can see no other Bohoras, whose Imams you have challenged are interested in defending their beliefs.

In the meantime read Seth Carney's Book. If you cannot obtain it please let me know and I can arrange to have a chapter by chapter sent to you. I got this from an Ismaili friend who lent it to me to read, but I think he has some chapters on the net. The Sheikh was a good friend of his. He (sheikh) passed away a couple of years ago.

coz there is no point to bang head on solid stone like MF, better do some thing productive rather then wasting time on this moronic guy.

[humble_servant_us]

Hanif
I would be interested in reading the Seth Carney's book. Please do send me links of it if possible.

I do not want to debate to sell my ideas, but I want to present what I have researched. I am still open in learning from you but i think you do not have access to bohra/ismaili literature to substantiate your claims. If you can share something , i will be happy to read it. Till then it would be difficult for our discussion to move forward. However if you are intrested in knowing more about shia islam, i can present it to you because what i understand is that there are lots of mis-understandings about shia islam floating among the masses.

MF
Sometime back i had sent you a lecture link on imamat. Imamat is not only a shia concept , some great sunni scholars have also accepted the importance of imamat in Islam. Re-sending the link for your reference. Like sunnis and shias are unanimous on the number 12, likewise the need of an Imam is also important among shias and sunnis. Its just who the imams are is matter of discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl0mZklt ... CCDF07B936

Hope this lecture answers some of your queries.

[anajmi]

some great sunni scholars have also accepted the importance of imamat in Islam.

If Imamat is so important, then where the hell is the Imam!!!

[aliabbas_aa]

The bohra religion so obviously fraudulent , it does not have an Imam rather a fraudulent representative which each bohra sect has. Alvi , sulemani, dawoodi each have their own fraud daees. Even a fool in this forum who has been since 1 yr should've understood the falsity of bohra religion. Those who have not are certainly either not honest with their own selves and want to enjoy kharas mithas or they are brainwashed to the level of a cow.

[Humsafar]

The bohra religion so obviously fraudulent , it does not have an Imam rather a fraudulent representative which each bohra sect has. Alvi , sulemani, dawoodi each have their own fraud daees. Even a fool in this forum who has been since 1 yr should've understood the falsity of bohra religion. Those who have not are certainly either not honest with their own selves and want to enjoy kharas mithas or they are brainwashed to the level of a cow.

A classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

[Muslim First]

Humble Servant,

If you want to continue this discussion, please send me a PM and we can continue. I think it would be better. If not then I shall end here. I would really like to continue this debate in private, because as you can see no other Bohoras, whose Imams you have challenged are interested in defending their beliefs.

In the meantime read Seth Carney's Book. If you cannot obtain it please let me know and I can arrange to have a chapter by chapter sent to you. I got this from an Ismaili friend who lent it to me to read, but I think he has some chapters on the net. The Sheikh was a good friend of his. He (sheikh) passed away a couple of years ago.

coz there is no point to bang head on solid stone like MF, better do some thing productive rather then wasting time on this moronic guy.

Raheba
Use your brain
This is between Hanif and Humble Servent
Since you directed comment my way, I will repost my response

It is useless to argue with grave worshipping, feet kissing, brainless, idiot slave like you. Nobody is wasting your time. You are wasting your time being on this site without Raza of your Master Bhagwan. So bug off.
Wasalaam

[badrijanab]

Br. Hanif,

You have shared good points. Thanks for increasing knowledge of readers of this thread. Keep the good work up.

Best regards