My apologizes...Khan posted this and I thought it appropriate to have a separate thread for it.
Khan wrote:
The Prophet (PBUH) did read the "taraweeh" for one day and then he did not appear on the next day so that the muslim did not consider it to be an oblifatory prayer.
---The Prophet was performing tahajjud alone in Ramadhan in the mosque. Over the course of two nights people gathered so much, he stopped because he thought the people would think it mandatory. So he said it is better to pray sunnah salat in your home. Every Prophetic hadith in referenced to night prayer uses the word "tahajjud". Tahajjud is the night prayer and is prayed in the home alone. It is actually not recommended to pray it in the mosque.
Khan wrote:
The Companions of the Prophet (PBUH) after his death only made the "taraweeh" by jamaah and that was by the consensus of all the companions (ijtehaad).
---Abu Bakr never prayed taraweeh. And again ijama must be based on Quran and sunnah. Neither support taraweh.
Khan wrote:
Hazrat Ali was also there and he did not stop the prayers when he bacame Caliph. ( if any one has info that he did stop the practice or ever spoke against it, please enlighten us all).
---If you don't know how can you say he did or didn't. Imam Ali never prayed the taraweh. Those that followed him also didn't. But then again he was at war with the majority so called muslims for 3 of the 5 years he was the kaliph.
Khan wrote:
Now these prayers were the ijtehad of the companions of the Prophet (PBUH)
--the first part of ijtehad is to base it on Quran and sunnah. Neither support taraweh.
Khan wrote:
What basis do the boris have for:
a) two rakah prayer for the present and former Dai
---it is not required and is allowed to prayer two rakats for anyone, be they a Dai, your parents, a friend, children, etc.
b) matam after every "farz" namaz
---Imams Zaynul Abidin, Baqir, and Sadiq all recorded this as a mustahab act in remembering Imam Husayn.
c) on the 23 rd night of Ramzan the "gaal lotana" process which I am sure the Prophet (PBUH) never praticed and reading "Hagiz Salat" the traslation of which really surprised. Its a gift to the Lady Fatima etc etc. (All items defying the purpose of praying)
---Actually, as I noted above, to perform salat or dua for someone is a very honorable act and is the sunnah of the Prophet. If the Prophet were alive..I am sure he would be please with his followers sending a duah/salat to him and his family. Do you not agree?
Taraweh
Re: Taraweh
Br Hur,
This is response to your reply to Khan.
Khan said Taraweeh is based on Ijteehad of companions of Prophet.
You said it should be based on Quran or Sunnah.
Well, he has said that Prophet prayed and mainstream Muslims have evidence or history to prove that.
On the other hand you said Prophet did not pray Taraweeh and instead he was praying Tahajud. You have your proofs that he prayed Tahajud and not Taraweeh.
So, what we have is difference of opinion and we do not have consensus.
They say Ali also prayed and never stopped Taraweeh when he was Caliph. You say Ali never prayed rather you say 'he was at war with majority' (I assume majority of Muslims..??!!). To me this is not correct. You mean to say Caliph of Islamic Sultanate was at war with majority of his people who recognizxed him as Caliph at that point in time??? Does not make sense..!!!
BUT again we do not have consensus.
So, we do not have consensus - this does not make Taraweeh wrong.
About the 2 Rakah for Dai (and for that matter for any one) - let me add:
- Did Prophet or Ali ever prayed Washaeeq and/or Thum Washaeeq? Do we have any proof for that.
Do mainstream Shias or Ismailis have this concept of Washaeeq? Only Bohras pray this.
(I will reply for 2 Rakah and Washaeeq in end)
Come to next point:
23 rd night of Ramadan.
Praying is sunnah - Prophet use to pray a lot. 'Gift' of Prayer is also OK.
Above are your contentions - right? and I agree.
AND you said Prophet would be happy if we prayed namaz other than Farz. He would be happy if we prayed for Ahle-Bait. FINE.
Then I conclude all prayers are good and OK. No matter what - Taraweeh or Washaeeq or Gift or for any person - Hadiyah of Prayer is good.
PRAYING IS GOOD.
Come to Matam after every Faraz Namaz.
THAT IS TOTALLY WRONG
You say Imams started it. No Imam has the right to add or delete or change the FARAZ things. ADDING matam after every faraz is an attempt to make it part of Faraz and that is not acceptable. Islam has been completed upon Mohammad. Matam may be good in your eyes, but to make it sort of mandatory after every faraz will eventually make it a part of faraz as many Bid'ats in bohra community. Leave Faraz things as they are.
This is response to your reply to Khan.
Khan said Taraweeh is based on Ijteehad of companions of Prophet.
You said it should be based on Quran or Sunnah.
Well, he has said that Prophet prayed and mainstream Muslims have evidence or history to prove that.
On the other hand you said Prophet did not pray Taraweeh and instead he was praying Tahajud. You have your proofs that he prayed Tahajud and not Taraweeh.
So, what we have is difference of opinion and we do not have consensus.
They say Ali also prayed and never stopped Taraweeh when he was Caliph. You say Ali never prayed rather you say 'he was at war with majority' (I assume majority of Muslims..??!!). To me this is not correct. You mean to say Caliph of Islamic Sultanate was at war with majority of his people who recognizxed him as Caliph at that point in time??? Does not make sense..!!!
BUT again we do not have consensus.
So, we do not have consensus - this does not make Taraweeh wrong.
About the 2 Rakah for Dai (and for that matter for any one) - let me add:
- Did Prophet or Ali ever prayed Washaeeq and/or Thum Washaeeq? Do we have any proof for that.
Do mainstream Shias or Ismailis have this concept of Washaeeq? Only Bohras pray this.
(I will reply for 2 Rakah and Washaeeq in end)
Come to next point:
23 rd night of Ramadan.
Praying is sunnah - Prophet use to pray a lot. 'Gift' of Prayer is also OK.
Above are your contentions - right? and I agree.
AND you said Prophet would be happy if we prayed namaz other than Farz. He would be happy if we prayed for Ahle-Bait. FINE.
Then I conclude all prayers are good and OK. No matter what - Taraweeh or Washaeeq or Gift or for any person - Hadiyah of Prayer is good.
PRAYING IS GOOD.
Come to Matam after every Faraz Namaz.
THAT IS TOTALLY WRONG
You say Imams started it. No Imam has the right to add or delete or change the FARAZ things. ADDING matam after every faraz is an attempt to make it part of Faraz and that is not acceptable. Islam has been completed upon Mohammad. Matam may be good in your eyes, but to make it sort of mandatory after every faraz will eventually make it a part of faraz as many Bid'ats in bohra community. Leave Faraz things as they are.
Re: Taraweh
Dear JC,
Firstly, consensus (ij'ma) is not a shiah supported concept. No person except the Prophet or Imam can make a decision regarding Islam.
-----------------------------------------------
"So, what we have is difference of opinion and we do not have consensus."
--The problem with your analogy is that the proofs the supporters of taraweh use..in fact use the word "tahajjud". They themselves have no proof to stand on. Taraweh is a invented prayer having no bases.
Actually, the main thing that is critically wrong with it, is that it is done as a jam'ah..and not individually. Technically, there is nothing wrong with performing what is termed taraweh. But it the claim that it is Prophetic tradition and that it is in jam'ah that is wrong.
-------------------------------------------------
Your wrote:
"They say Ali also prayed and never stopped Taraweeh when he was Caliph. You say Ali never prayed rather you say 'he was at war with majority' (I assume majority of Muslims..??!!). To me this is not correct. You mean to say Caliph of Islamic Sultanate was at war with majority of his people who recognizxed him as Caliph at that point in time??? Does not make sense..!!!"
--Muwaiyah controlled Syria, Jersulem and Jordan. The Khawrij were a large minority population. The majority meaning about 60% of the muslims. Imam Ali base was Hijaz, Yemen, and what is now southern Iraq.
But to clarify...Imam Ali was put in the kaliph not by the majority...but by the shura council (six people). There was no election or voting ballot.
-------------------------------------------------
"Did Prophet or Ali ever prayed Washaeeq and/or Thum Washaeeq? Do we have any proof for that."
---Yes...tahajjud is 12 rakaats and is equivalent to what is termed washiq. Imamia have many different versions of what the Bohra term washiq.
For example..the coming Eid al'Ghadir..the amal is as follows:
Pray a 2 Raka't Salaat before sunset as follows
-In every Raka't
-Surah Al Fatih'ah once
-Surah Al Ikhlaas 10 times
-Ayat ul Kursi 10 times
-Surah Qadr 10 times
-After the Salaam go into Sajdah
then say 100 times - Al'hamdullah, shukran lillaah.
Then sit and recite the dua'a "Allamumma inni asaloka be anna lakal hamda wahdaka... which can be found in the all dua and ziyarat books.
Then go into Sajdah and recite :
ALHAMDU LILLAH 100 times
SHUKRAN LILLAH 100 times
-------------------------------------------------
"You say Imams started it. No Imam has the right to add or delete or change the FARAZ things."
---Matam is not required...but highly recommended.
Firstly, consensus (ij'ma) is not a shiah supported concept. No person except the Prophet or Imam can make a decision regarding Islam.
-----------------------------------------------
"So, what we have is difference of opinion and we do not have consensus."
--The problem with your analogy is that the proofs the supporters of taraweh use..in fact use the word "tahajjud". They themselves have no proof to stand on. Taraweh is a invented prayer having no bases.
Actually, the main thing that is critically wrong with it, is that it is done as a jam'ah..and not individually. Technically, there is nothing wrong with performing what is termed taraweh. But it the claim that it is Prophetic tradition and that it is in jam'ah that is wrong.
-------------------------------------------------
Your wrote:
"They say Ali also prayed and never stopped Taraweeh when he was Caliph. You say Ali never prayed rather you say 'he was at war with majority' (I assume majority of Muslims..??!!). To me this is not correct. You mean to say Caliph of Islamic Sultanate was at war with majority of his people who recognizxed him as Caliph at that point in time??? Does not make sense..!!!"
--Muwaiyah controlled Syria, Jersulem and Jordan. The Khawrij were a large minority population. The majority meaning about 60% of the muslims. Imam Ali base was Hijaz, Yemen, and what is now southern Iraq.
But to clarify...Imam Ali was put in the kaliph not by the majority...but by the shura council (six people). There was no election or voting ballot.
-------------------------------------------------
"Did Prophet or Ali ever prayed Washaeeq and/or Thum Washaeeq? Do we have any proof for that."
---Yes...tahajjud is 12 rakaats and is equivalent to what is termed washiq. Imamia have many different versions of what the Bohra term washiq.
For example..the coming Eid al'Ghadir..the amal is as follows:
Pray a 2 Raka't Salaat before sunset as follows
-In every Raka't
-Surah Al Fatih'ah once
-Surah Al Ikhlaas 10 times
-Ayat ul Kursi 10 times
-Surah Qadr 10 times
-After the Salaam go into Sajdah
then say 100 times - Al'hamdullah, shukran lillaah.
Then sit and recite the dua'a "Allamumma inni asaloka be anna lakal hamda wahdaka... which can be found in the all dua and ziyarat books.
Then go into Sajdah and recite :
ALHAMDU LILLAH 100 times
SHUKRAN LILLAH 100 times
-------------------------------------------------
"You say Imams started it. No Imam has the right to add or delete or change the FARAZ things."
---Matam is not required...but highly recommended.
Re: Taraweh
Br Hur,
I see that you have been quite active and you write in details. Keep up the good work.
I see that you have been quite active and you write in details. Keep up the good work.
Re: Taraweh
Br. Hur,
Want to reply to ur reply!
So what if Ali was 'selected' by six people - after all he was Khalifa and in those days people accepted him as Khalifa-tul-Muslamoon (and he was Amir-ul-Momeeneen). I cannot accept that he was 'at war with his own people'. Even today say in Saudi Arabia there is monarchy and people accept the legitimacy of the king, however minority doesnot recognize him as legititmate and in some ways king may have grudge against that minority - but no ruler can be termed as 'at war with his own people'. Genocide is something else, ethnic cleansing is something else and even a despot or dictator is something else. Offcourse and offcourse Ali was not like that - so i conclude that he was a Just and Great Leader, and no such leader is at war with any people.
Taraweeh should not be brushed aside - the only issue you seem to have is that it is being prayed in Jama'at. Washayeeq and other rakahs are prayed individually. To me this should not be an issue. Taraweeh is not a mandatory prayer, so end of argument. If people want to pray taraweeh or washayeeq, good for them - with Imam or without. As I said praying is good.
Ijmah you say is not a Shia concept and Imamat is. Well, to me Ijmah seems more logical, rationale and reasonable (and shall I dare to add democratic! - i know Muslims in general tend to agree that there is no concept of democracy in Islam). I tend to agree on Imam as more of a teacher or leader but not as sole authority where all the power rests - it should not be AL-MUTLAK (as Dai-ul-Mutlak) - Al-mutlak comes from Mutlak-ul-Annan which means completely powerful authority. Despotism is not good. Islam has been completed on Prophet Mohammad and there is no question (and need) for any more new guidance from God. Imam has to 'interpret', 'explain', may be 'justify' but he has NOT to make rules. Policies are there, procedures can be laid down by Imam. So we should seek his ruling but that should not be the LAW. Imam can lead the committee (Ijmah) who gives Fatwa. Now once we say Islam has answer for everything, the need is interpretation, but i feel there are some issues (or issues may come up with the passage of time) where there will be no clear cut solution - it is not good to leave the solution to Imam only - he should 'consult' - majority should have a say. Issue like -
a. Organ donation (from dead to alive)
b. Organ transplant (from alive to alive)
c. Following or performing Farz at North Pole where six months are days and six months are nights
d. Same-sex issues
In fact the whole lot of developments - from using of airplanes to going to Moon and Mars!
You have said that 'Matam is highly recommended' - by WHOM, Imam? WHEN
Why this highly recommended thing has surfaced so late? Why it was not so common or popular till Taher Saifuddin's tenure?
Now donot say it was there, but in hiding or donot take excuse under Muslayhat or Taweel. This Purjosh Matam is done by bohras very recently.
Matam is not coming from Quran or Sunnah, so how that can be highly recommended as to perform it after every Farz namaz!!
I believe matam is bid'at. And doing that for one of the greatest leaders in Islam who is the Leader of Martyrs till Qayamah. Matam is not the right way to remember Hussain, if we want to remember him, we should DO and ACT for what he died for, follow hs footsteps, practice what he preached, love him, pray for him - thinking Matam will take us to paradise is absurd.
No one should highly recommend something which is seemed or will be seemed as addition eventually.
OK, what do you say about Ziarats, Rozas, Mazars etc. This concept is very much there not only in Shias but Sunnis too. But it is too strong in bohras. Have you done the Ziarat of Dais in India? Why on earth do we need that??!!! Have you been to Karbala? No, so what??
Ziarat-e-Karbala is compared to Hajj and Umerah and apparently it comes immediately after Haj and Umerah (let me dare to add, to many bohras this ziarat is as good as Haj - Noazebillah). Tons of things come after Haj and Umerah. Haj is once in a lifetime if one can and bohras generally believe of Karabala equivalent. Is there anything about Ziarat in Quran or Sunnah. How may rozas are there of 120,000 prophets which came to earth? Praying to dead, doing sajdas to dead, asking for help of dead and all that is not only unIslamic it is illogical, irrationale and mad. Bohras have tons of Rozas all over India - Burhan and his chamchas have very cleverly made this concept as Investment for themselves - tax-free benefits i guess!! Invest once, incomes keeps on coming from Galas! This is totally absurd. Now they have started investing in Rozas of dead of royal family other than so called Dais.
Thats all my friends! and Br Hur.
Want to reply to ur reply!
So what if Ali was 'selected' by six people - after all he was Khalifa and in those days people accepted him as Khalifa-tul-Muslamoon (and he was Amir-ul-Momeeneen). I cannot accept that he was 'at war with his own people'. Even today say in Saudi Arabia there is monarchy and people accept the legitimacy of the king, however minority doesnot recognize him as legititmate and in some ways king may have grudge against that minority - but no ruler can be termed as 'at war with his own people'. Genocide is something else, ethnic cleansing is something else and even a despot or dictator is something else. Offcourse and offcourse Ali was not like that - so i conclude that he was a Just and Great Leader, and no such leader is at war with any people.
Taraweeh should not be brushed aside - the only issue you seem to have is that it is being prayed in Jama'at. Washayeeq and other rakahs are prayed individually. To me this should not be an issue. Taraweeh is not a mandatory prayer, so end of argument. If people want to pray taraweeh or washayeeq, good for them - with Imam or without. As I said praying is good.
Ijmah you say is not a Shia concept and Imamat is. Well, to me Ijmah seems more logical, rationale and reasonable (and shall I dare to add democratic! - i know Muslims in general tend to agree that there is no concept of democracy in Islam). I tend to agree on Imam as more of a teacher or leader but not as sole authority where all the power rests - it should not be AL-MUTLAK (as Dai-ul-Mutlak) - Al-mutlak comes from Mutlak-ul-Annan which means completely powerful authority. Despotism is not good. Islam has been completed on Prophet Mohammad and there is no question (and need) for any more new guidance from God. Imam has to 'interpret', 'explain', may be 'justify' but he has NOT to make rules. Policies are there, procedures can be laid down by Imam. So we should seek his ruling but that should not be the LAW. Imam can lead the committee (Ijmah) who gives Fatwa. Now once we say Islam has answer for everything, the need is interpretation, but i feel there are some issues (or issues may come up with the passage of time) where there will be no clear cut solution - it is not good to leave the solution to Imam only - he should 'consult' - majority should have a say. Issue like -
a. Organ donation (from dead to alive)
b. Organ transplant (from alive to alive)
c. Following or performing Farz at North Pole where six months are days and six months are nights
d. Same-sex issues
In fact the whole lot of developments - from using of airplanes to going to Moon and Mars!
You have said that 'Matam is highly recommended' - by WHOM, Imam? WHEN
Why this highly recommended thing has surfaced so late? Why it was not so common or popular till Taher Saifuddin's tenure?
Now donot say it was there, but in hiding or donot take excuse under Muslayhat or Taweel. This Purjosh Matam is done by bohras very recently.
Matam is not coming from Quran or Sunnah, so how that can be highly recommended as to perform it after every Farz namaz!!
I believe matam is bid'at. And doing that for one of the greatest leaders in Islam who is the Leader of Martyrs till Qayamah. Matam is not the right way to remember Hussain, if we want to remember him, we should DO and ACT for what he died for, follow hs footsteps, practice what he preached, love him, pray for him - thinking Matam will take us to paradise is absurd.
No one should highly recommend something which is seemed or will be seemed as addition eventually.
OK, what do you say about Ziarats, Rozas, Mazars etc. This concept is very much there not only in Shias but Sunnis too. But it is too strong in bohras. Have you done the Ziarat of Dais in India? Why on earth do we need that??!!! Have you been to Karbala? No, so what??
Ziarat-e-Karbala is compared to Hajj and Umerah and apparently it comes immediately after Haj and Umerah (let me dare to add, to many bohras this ziarat is as good as Haj - Noazebillah). Tons of things come after Haj and Umerah. Haj is once in a lifetime if one can and bohras generally believe of Karabala equivalent. Is there anything about Ziarat in Quran or Sunnah. How may rozas are there of 120,000 prophets which came to earth? Praying to dead, doing sajdas to dead, asking for help of dead and all that is not only unIslamic it is illogical, irrationale and mad. Bohras have tons of Rozas all over India - Burhan and his chamchas have very cleverly made this concept as Investment for themselves - tax-free benefits i guess!! Invest once, incomes keeps on coming from Galas! This is totally absurd. Now they have started investing in Rozas of dead of royal family other than so called Dais.
Thats all my friends! and Br Hur.
Re: Taraweh
Dear JC,
"So what if Ali was 'selected' by six people - after all he was Khalifa and in those days people accepted him as Khalifa-tul-Muslamoon (and he was Amir-ul-Momeeneen)."
---this is part of the problem...the muslims (through massive political campaigning by other would be kaliphs) did not recognize Imam Ali as the kaliph. Remember, Imam Ali was cursed from the mimbar in Syria and Jersulem during his time as kaliph. He was selected by Medinan companions as the kaliph.
--------------------------------------------------"Even today say in Saudi Arabia there is monarchy and people accept the legitimacy of the king, however minority doesnot recognize him as legititmate and in some ways king may have grudge against that minority - but no ruler can be termed as 'at war with his own people'."
---Would did Imam Ali fight in the battle of Jamel..Talha, Zubayr, and Aisha! Would did Imam Ali fight in the battle of Siffin...Muwaiya. Would did he fight in the battle of Nahrwayn...the Kharwij. ALL MUSLIMS.
--------------------------------------------------"Taraweeh should not be brushed aside - the only issue you seem to have is that it is being prayed in Jama'at. Washayeeq and other rakahs are prayed individually. To me this should not be an issue. Taraweeh is not a mandatory prayer, so end of argument. If people want to pray taraweeh or washayeeq, good for them - with Imam or without. As I said praying is good."
---But the problem is you are brushing aside the traditions of the Prophet. The only prayers allowed to be jam'ah by the Prophet were the Fardh, Eids, and Janaza. To add..the Prophet didn't want the tahajjud to become jam'ah...by the fact that he stopped going to the mosque when people began to gather and stated so in hadith.
--------------------------------------------------
"Ijmah you say is not a Shia concept and Imamat is. Well, to me Ijmah seems more logical, rationale and reasonable (and shall I dare to add democratic! - i know Muslims in general tend to agree that there is no concept of democracy in Islam)."
---The only problem with ijma is that it is solely based on the understanding of those referenced and their opinions on the matter. If those referenced are incorrect...then there is a high probably of commiting a wrong action.
--------------------------------------------------
"I tend to agree on Imam as more of a teacher or leader but not as sole authority where all the power rests"
---The issue is not of power. What real power does the hujjah (Dai for bohra) have. Mainly religious in actuality. The only reason we connect it to POWER is because WE don't like it the decision. Its the same POWER our parent had and our feelings when they made us do something we didn't like...we revolted and kick and scream...though in the end it may have better for us.
--------------------------------------------------
"Islam has been completed on Prophet Mohammad and there is no question (and need) for any more new guidance from God."
---so how can you support the idea of an Imam. The Imam GUIDES us...correct? And as a shiah, we believe this guidance is from God.
-------------------------------------------------"Imam has to 'interpret', 'explain', may be 'justify' but he has NOT to make rules."
---Not make new rules...but address issues of modern life to apply the Prophetic rule.
-------------------------------------------------
"Policies are there, procedures can be laid down by Imam. So we should seek his ruling but that should not be the LAW. Imam can lead the committee (Ijmah) who gives Fatwa. Now once we say Islam has answer for everything, the need is interpretation, but i feel there are some issues (or issues may come up with the passage of time) where there will be no clear cut solution - it is not good to leave the solution to Imam only - he should 'consult' - majority should have a say."
---by stating this you have defined what YOU would like the Imam to be. If you take this analogy...would you have defined the role of the Prophet in the same manner. Remember Muhammad ibn Abdullah was first the Imam, then Prophet, then Rasul.
And the path you describe was taken by the sunnis. The have there imams, they have there ijma and fatwas committee, they have everything you describe. And what is the result...they can't make an ijma on something as basic as when Eid, or the new month, or the method of prayer, or a million other things that you say would have been solved. The Imam is guided by God..not man's second guessing. You think Imam Ali needed to consulted any companion for anything??? You think any Imam needed to??? No, because they knew.
You have said that 'Matam is highly recommended' - by WHOM, Imam? WHEN
---By Imam Zaynul Abidin, Imam Baqir and Imam Jafar Sadiq. Imam Zaynul Abidin held majalis of aza after returning from Shams/Karbala.
"Why this highly recommended thing has surfaced so late? Why it was not so common or popular till Taher Saifuddin's tenure?"
---I wouldn't say that it wasn't there...maybe not practiced by everyone. I tell you the same had occured across the shiah world..not just with the bohra. It's all a matter of preception...this is why muslims are saying we are in a age of awakening to Islam.
Let me ask you a question...when was the last Dai that had access to the majority of the bohra population? I will tell you that the teaching of shiah ayatuallah didn't extend beyond their state 50 years ago. Now it is world wide. Now shiah hundreds of zakirin from Pakistan, India, Iran, England, etc. produce new marisaya cassette and cds every year for Ashura.
-------------------------------------------------
"I believe matam is bid'at. And doing that for one of the greatest leaders in Islam who is the Leader of Martyrs till Qayamah. Matam is not the right way to remember Hussain, if we want to remember him, we should DO and ACT for what he died for, follow hs footsteps, practice what he preached, love him, pray for him - thinking Matam will take us to paradise is absurd."
--Why...will performing salat take you to paradise...will fasting or performing Hajj??? Why these RITUALS are the foundation of Islam..yet matam of the leader of martyrs will not??? Imam Jafar Sadiq said mourning for Imam Husayn is equivalent like dua...for you are remembering someone who God loved.
--------------------------------------------------
"No one should highly recommend something which is seemed or will be seemed as addition eventually."
---This is your own view and opinion.
--------------------------------------------------"OK, what do you say about Ziarats, Rozas, Mazars etc. "
---You said alot there. I have done the ziyarats in Middle East and have seen some of the ziyarats in Mumbai. The qabar of the Prophets we know are there and preserved...ziyarats are made of them. The Prophet highly recommended doing ziyarat for people close to us. Hajj is a ritual and a ziyarat...in essense no different that Karbala or Najaf. Ziyarat means to visit.
If you think ziyarat is strong in Bohra...you should see the ziyarats of shiah. People crawl and hands and knee making dua and wasilah for the Imams and Awliyallah.
"So what if Ali was 'selected' by six people - after all he was Khalifa and in those days people accepted him as Khalifa-tul-Muslamoon (and he was Amir-ul-Momeeneen)."
---this is part of the problem...the muslims (through massive political campaigning by other would be kaliphs) did not recognize Imam Ali as the kaliph. Remember, Imam Ali was cursed from the mimbar in Syria and Jersulem during his time as kaliph. He was selected by Medinan companions as the kaliph.
--------------------------------------------------"Even today say in Saudi Arabia there is monarchy and people accept the legitimacy of the king, however minority doesnot recognize him as legititmate and in some ways king may have grudge against that minority - but no ruler can be termed as 'at war with his own people'."
---Would did Imam Ali fight in the battle of Jamel..Talha, Zubayr, and Aisha! Would did Imam Ali fight in the battle of Siffin...Muwaiya. Would did he fight in the battle of Nahrwayn...the Kharwij. ALL MUSLIMS.
--------------------------------------------------"Taraweeh should not be brushed aside - the only issue you seem to have is that it is being prayed in Jama'at. Washayeeq and other rakahs are prayed individually. To me this should not be an issue. Taraweeh is not a mandatory prayer, so end of argument. If people want to pray taraweeh or washayeeq, good for them - with Imam or without. As I said praying is good."
---But the problem is you are brushing aside the traditions of the Prophet. The only prayers allowed to be jam'ah by the Prophet were the Fardh, Eids, and Janaza. To add..the Prophet didn't want the tahajjud to become jam'ah...by the fact that he stopped going to the mosque when people began to gather and stated so in hadith.
--------------------------------------------------
"Ijmah you say is not a Shia concept and Imamat is. Well, to me Ijmah seems more logical, rationale and reasonable (and shall I dare to add democratic! - i know Muslims in general tend to agree that there is no concept of democracy in Islam)."
---The only problem with ijma is that it is solely based on the understanding of those referenced and their opinions on the matter. If those referenced are incorrect...then there is a high probably of commiting a wrong action.
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"I tend to agree on Imam as more of a teacher or leader but not as sole authority where all the power rests"
---The issue is not of power. What real power does the hujjah (Dai for bohra) have. Mainly religious in actuality. The only reason we connect it to POWER is because WE don't like it the decision. Its the same POWER our parent had and our feelings when they made us do something we didn't like...we revolted and kick and scream...though in the end it may have better for us.
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"Islam has been completed on Prophet Mohammad and there is no question (and need) for any more new guidance from God."
---so how can you support the idea of an Imam. The Imam GUIDES us...correct? And as a shiah, we believe this guidance is from God.
-------------------------------------------------"Imam has to 'interpret', 'explain', may be 'justify' but he has NOT to make rules."
---Not make new rules...but address issues of modern life to apply the Prophetic rule.
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"Policies are there, procedures can be laid down by Imam. So we should seek his ruling but that should not be the LAW. Imam can lead the committee (Ijmah) who gives Fatwa. Now once we say Islam has answer for everything, the need is interpretation, but i feel there are some issues (or issues may come up with the passage of time) where there will be no clear cut solution - it is not good to leave the solution to Imam only - he should 'consult' - majority should have a say."
---by stating this you have defined what YOU would like the Imam to be. If you take this analogy...would you have defined the role of the Prophet in the same manner. Remember Muhammad ibn Abdullah was first the Imam, then Prophet, then Rasul.
And the path you describe was taken by the sunnis. The have there imams, they have there ijma and fatwas committee, they have everything you describe. And what is the result...they can't make an ijma on something as basic as when Eid, or the new month, or the method of prayer, or a million other things that you say would have been solved. The Imam is guided by God..not man's second guessing. You think Imam Ali needed to consulted any companion for anything??? You think any Imam needed to??? No, because they knew.
You have said that 'Matam is highly recommended' - by WHOM, Imam? WHEN
---By Imam Zaynul Abidin, Imam Baqir and Imam Jafar Sadiq. Imam Zaynul Abidin held majalis of aza after returning from Shams/Karbala.
"Why this highly recommended thing has surfaced so late? Why it was not so common or popular till Taher Saifuddin's tenure?"
---I wouldn't say that it wasn't there...maybe not practiced by everyone. I tell you the same had occured across the shiah world..not just with the bohra. It's all a matter of preception...this is why muslims are saying we are in a age of awakening to Islam.
Let me ask you a question...when was the last Dai that had access to the majority of the bohra population? I will tell you that the teaching of shiah ayatuallah didn't extend beyond their state 50 years ago. Now it is world wide. Now shiah hundreds of zakirin from Pakistan, India, Iran, England, etc. produce new marisaya cassette and cds every year for Ashura.
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"I believe matam is bid'at. And doing that for one of the greatest leaders in Islam who is the Leader of Martyrs till Qayamah. Matam is not the right way to remember Hussain, if we want to remember him, we should DO and ACT for what he died for, follow hs footsteps, practice what he preached, love him, pray for him - thinking Matam will take us to paradise is absurd."
--Why...will performing salat take you to paradise...will fasting or performing Hajj??? Why these RITUALS are the foundation of Islam..yet matam of the leader of martyrs will not??? Imam Jafar Sadiq said mourning for Imam Husayn is equivalent like dua...for you are remembering someone who God loved.
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"No one should highly recommend something which is seemed or will be seemed as addition eventually."
---This is your own view and opinion.
--------------------------------------------------"OK, what do you say about Ziarats, Rozas, Mazars etc. "
---You said alot there. I have done the ziyarats in Middle East and have seen some of the ziyarats in Mumbai. The qabar of the Prophets we know are there and preserved...ziyarats are made of them. The Prophet highly recommended doing ziyarat for people close to us. Hajj is a ritual and a ziyarat...in essense no different that Karbala or Najaf. Ziyarat means to visit.
If you think ziyarat is strong in Bohra...you should see the ziyarats of shiah. People crawl and hands and knee making dua and wasilah for the Imams and Awliyallah.
Re: Taraweh
Br. Hur,
Good, indeed, very good.
I still have some comments and reservations and I will come up with those very shortly.
Good, indeed, very good.
I still have some comments and reservations and I will come up with those very shortly.
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khan19922001
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Taraweh
Is praying Taraaweeh in congregation considered to be a bid’ah (innovation), because it was not done at the time of the Prophet and the first one who established that was ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him)?
Answer :
Praise be to Allaah.
The view that Taraaweeh prayer is a bid’ah is not valid. Rather we should ask whether it was one of the Sunnahs of ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab, because it was not done at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) but it was done in ‘Umar’s time, or was it one of the Sunnahs of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)?
Some people claim that it was one of the Sunnahs of ‘Umar, and they base that on the fact that ‘Umar “commanded Ubayy ibn Ka’b and Tameem al-Daari to lead the people in praying eleven rak’ahs.” He went out the same night and saw the people praying, and he said, “What a good innovation this is.” This indicates that it had not previously been prescribed…
But this opinion is da’eef (weak), and those who say this are ignoring the reports proven in al-Saheehayn and elsewhere, that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) “led his companions in praying for three nights, and on the third or fourth night he did not lead them, and he said: ‘I am afraid that it may be made obligatory upon you.’” This was narrated by al-Bukhaari (872). According to a version narrated by Muslim, “But I was afraid that prayer at night may be made obligatory upon you, and you would not be able to do it.” (1271). So it is proven that Taraaweeh is part of the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) referred to the reason why he did not persist in it, which was the fear that it might become obligatory; he did not say that it is not prescribed. This fear no longer applied following the death of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), because when he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) died, the revelation ceased and there was no longer any concern that it might become obligatory. Once the fear that it might become obligatory was no longer present, because the revelation had ceased, then the reason for not doing it was also removed, and so it was restored to its position of being Sunnah.
See al-Sharh al-Mumti’ by Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, vol. 4, p. 78.
It was narrated in al-Saheehayn from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) would forgo doing something that he liked to do lest the people do it and it become obligatory upon them. (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1060; Muslim, Salaat al-Musaafireen, 1174).
Al-Nawawi said: This shows how kind he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was and how compassionate towards his ummah.
So there is no basis for saying that Taraaweeh prayer is not part of the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), rather it is part of the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), but he forsook it for fear that it may be made obligatory upon his ummah. When he died, this concern no longer applied. Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him) was distracted by the wars against the apostates and his reign was short, lasting only two years. When the reign of ‘Umar came and the Muslims became secure and victorious, he commanded the people to gather together for Taraaweeh prayers in Ramadaan, as they used to gather with the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). All that ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) did was to go back to that Sunnah and revive it. And Allaah is the Source of strength.
Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com)
Answer :
Praise be to Allaah.
The view that Taraaweeh prayer is a bid’ah is not valid. Rather we should ask whether it was one of the Sunnahs of ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab, because it was not done at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) but it was done in ‘Umar’s time, or was it one of the Sunnahs of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)?
Some people claim that it was one of the Sunnahs of ‘Umar, and they base that on the fact that ‘Umar “commanded Ubayy ibn Ka’b and Tameem al-Daari to lead the people in praying eleven rak’ahs.” He went out the same night and saw the people praying, and he said, “What a good innovation this is.” This indicates that it had not previously been prescribed…
But this opinion is da’eef (weak), and those who say this are ignoring the reports proven in al-Saheehayn and elsewhere, that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) “led his companions in praying for three nights, and on the third or fourth night he did not lead them, and he said: ‘I am afraid that it may be made obligatory upon you.’” This was narrated by al-Bukhaari (872). According to a version narrated by Muslim, “But I was afraid that prayer at night may be made obligatory upon you, and you would not be able to do it.” (1271). So it is proven that Taraaweeh is part of the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) referred to the reason why he did not persist in it, which was the fear that it might become obligatory; he did not say that it is not prescribed. This fear no longer applied following the death of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), because when he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) died, the revelation ceased and there was no longer any concern that it might become obligatory. Once the fear that it might become obligatory was no longer present, because the revelation had ceased, then the reason for not doing it was also removed, and so it was restored to its position of being Sunnah.
See al-Sharh al-Mumti’ by Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, vol. 4, p. 78.
It was narrated in al-Saheehayn from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) would forgo doing something that he liked to do lest the people do it and it become obligatory upon them. (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1060; Muslim, Salaat al-Musaafireen, 1174).
Al-Nawawi said: This shows how kind he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was and how compassionate towards his ummah.
So there is no basis for saying that Taraaweeh prayer is not part of the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), rather it is part of the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), but he forsook it for fear that it may be made obligatory upon his ummah. When he died, this concern no longer applied. Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him) was distracted by the wars against the apostates and his reign was short, lasting only two years. When the reign of ‘Umar came and the Muslims became secure and victorious, he commanded the people to gather together for Taraaweeh prayers in Ramadaan, as they used to gather with the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). All that ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) did was to go back to that Sunnah and revive it. And Allaah is the Source of strength.
Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com)
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khan19922001
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Taraweh
Hur
You said that the Prophet(PBUH) was reading "tahajjud" in the mosque.
In the same para you mentioned that it is better for the tahajjud to be prayed at home rather in the masjud.
So it is better not to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH) !!!
Please clarify
You said that the Prophet(PBUH) was reading "tahajjud" in the mosque.
In the same para you mentioned that it is better for the tahajjud to be prayed at home rather in the masjud.
So it is better not to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH) !!!
Please clarify
Re: Taraweh
Dear Br. Khan,
There are three faults with the statement by the shiekh you quote.
1.) The Prophet didn't lead anyone in prayer. He was praying individually and during the course of the nights other prayed at the same time...but not in jam'ah.
2.) Abu Bakr never practiced what is called taraweh during his kaliphate.
3.) In the hadiths referenced, the word tahajjud is used for "night prayer"..not tarawih. Tahajjud is clearly defined as a individual prayer.
In regards you your statement of the sunnah...the Prophet clearly identifies his intent and reasoning. He prayed in the mosque alone to be alone with Allah. People began to come at the same time. He decided that it was better for them to pray at home to prevent groups of people from gathering at the mosque and taking away from the main purpose of the prayer itself. So he command those who pray it to do so at home.
There are three faults with the statement by the shiekh you quote.
1.) The Prophet didn't lead anyone in prayer. He was praying individually and during the course of the nights other prayed at the same time...but not in jam'ah.
2.) Abu Bakr never practiced what is called taraweh during his kaliphate.
3.) In the hadiths referenced, the word tahajjud is used for "night prayer"..not tarawih. Tahajjud is clearly defined as a individual prayer.
In regards you your statement of the sunnah...the Prophet clearly identifies his intent and reasoning. He prayed in the mosque alone to be alone with Allah. People began to come at the same time. He decided that it was better for them to pray at home to prevent groups of people from gathering at the mosque and taking away from the main purpose of the prayer itself. So he command those who pray it to do so at home.
Re: Taraweh
Dear Hur,
Sorry for delay, i got busy ans was out of town for work.
Some replies:
You mix prayer and matam quoting what is the guarantee namaz will take you to Janat? I never said that. I do not think Namaz will necessarily take you to Janat. Namaz has been made Farz so we have to pray it, its upto God what He gives us in return. On the other hand you all clearly claim matam will take you to Janat - that is absurd.
About Ziarats, that is wrong. Making Mazars is wrong. Why do you quote other Shias as to how do they behave at mazars of their imams? they are doing wrong, two wrongs do not make one right. Making Mazars and Doing Ziarats is bidaa't.
You say muslims are not united and they cannot agree on any single thing as for start of Ramadan or Eid etc. Agreed. You say imamat will solve all this (forget dais..!!) NO, who is Imam where is Imam, Agha Khan, Iranian Imam, any other Pakistani or Indian, or Bohra Imam..??? there is no one Imam, so it is same. Everyone has its own Masjid and Imam.
Sorry for delay, i got busy ans was out of town for work.
Some replies:
You mix prayer and matam quoting what is the guarantee namaz will take you to Janat? I never said that. I do not think Namaz will necessarily take you to Janat. Namaz has been made Farz so we have to pray it, its upto God what He gives us in return. On the other hand you all clearly claim matam will take you to Janat - that is absurd.
About Ziarats, that is wrong. Making Mazars is wrong. Why do you quote other Shias as to how do they behave at mazars of their imams? they are doing wrong, two wrongs do not make one right. Making Mazars and Doing Ziarats is bidaa't.
You say muslims are not united and they cannot agree on any single thing as for start of Ramadan or Eid etc. Agreed. You say imamat will solve all this (forget dais..!!) NO, who is Imam where is Imam, Agha Khan, Iranian Imam, any other Pakistani or Indian, or Bohra Imam..??? there is no one Imam, so it is same. Everyone has its own Masjid and Imam.