"It is a hukm of shariat that one should close ranks within the saf in namaaz. One should pray shoulder to shoulder. This is because as soon as gaps appear within a saf, shaitan moves in to cause disruption. This shaitan is compared to the infants of a goat."
http://www.alvazarat.org/ashara_1425/14 ... am_ref.htm
seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
So, the old man is reading Bukhari. :p
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Actually this is written in Diam ul'Islam via Imam Muhammad Baqir.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Dear hur,
Do you know the reason why some Shaikhs do not pray Imamat Namaaz and choose to pray separately in another room nearby?
I am told that that it is because the Shaykh has a higher 'darajjo' than the Imam leading the prayer with raza.
If that is the case, do we have a Bohra hadith, involving Rasul, Imam or Dai to that effect?
Do you know the reason why some Shaikhs do not pray Imamat Namaaz and choose to pray separately in another room nearby?
I am told that that it is because the Shaykh has a higher 'darajjo' than the Imam leading the prayer with raza.
If that is the case, do we have a Bohra hadith, involving Rasul, Imam or Dai to that effect?
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Porus,
I not sure on specific bohra hadiths. I do know in general the imam leading the salat should be the most poius or knowledgeable of those being led and have raza to do so. It would be impolite and degrade the stature of the other.
As a basis, if the Prophet was not available to lead, the Prophet select someone to lead. In comparision an Imam would never lead a Prophet in salat...nor a Dai lead an Imam in salat.
I not sure on specific bohra hadiths. I do know in general the imam leading the salat should be the most poius or knowledgeable of those being led and have raza to do so. It would be impolite and degrade the stature of the other.
As a basis, if the Prophet was not available to lead, the Prophet select someone to lead. In comparision an Imam would never lead a Prophet in salat...nor a Dai lead an Imam in salat.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
I don't know about piety and knowledge (Allah knows best), but the person leading the prayers, the Imam, is the one with raza.
Why then the Shaikh does not follow this Imam in prayer? Is it that because he is in a higher darajja (more knowledge, more piety, higher title etc), his prayers with the Imam would not be valid and would not be accepted by Allah?
In the limit, if everyone becomes a Shaikh, then there cannot be any Imamat namaaz at all! Right?
Why then the Shaikh does not follow this Imam in prayer? Is it that because he is in a higher darajja (more knowledge, more piety, higher title etc), his prayers with the Imam would not be valid and would not be accepted by Allah?
In the limit, if everyone becomes a Shaikh, then there cannot be any Imamat namaaz at all! Right?
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Porus,
From what I know...what you refer to as darraj is the ranking or level of piety and knowledge of the person. Remember, not all shaikhs are equal in piety and knowledge.
If the shaikh has higher knowledge than the imam of salat..then it would forsake the position of imam in the salat (not the shaikh). The leader of the salat should be the most pious or learned among the jamat praying. You would be breaking sunnah to pray behind him. If the imam of salat is a wali mullah for the jamat...this limits those that would pray behind him.
From what I know...what you refer to as darraj is the ranking or level of piety and knowledge of the person. Remember, not all shaikhs are equal in piety and knowledge.
If the shaikh has higher knowledge than the imam of salat..then it would forsake the position of imam in the salat (not the shaikh). The leader of the salat should be the most pious or learned among the jamat praying. You would be breaking sunnah to pray behind him. If the imam of salat is a wali mullah for the jamat...this limits those that would pray behind him.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Thanks hur for your response. I do not follow it. No one can judge who is the most pious or the most knowledgeable except Allah.
Practically, whoever has the raza leads prayers. It could be an Amil or walimulla.
The question is, under what circumstances, would my prayer be invalid, if I prayed under the leadership of these Raza na Sahebs? When I beome a Shaikh, more pious, more knowledgeable? And who is to judger that?
Frankly hur, I appreciate your attempt to answer my queastion but I do not believe you have the necessary knowledge to answer it. Thank you
Practically, whoever has the raza leads prayers. It could be an Amil or walimulla.
The question is, under what circumstances, would my prayer be invalid, if I prayed under the leadership of these Raza na Sahebs? When I beome a Shaikh, more pious, more knowledgeable? And who is to judger that?
Frankly hur, I appreciate your attempt to answer my queastion but I do not believe you have the necessary knowledge to answer it. Thank you
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Part of the answer your look for is something you've already answered.
As I mentioned, the raza is given to an amil or a walimullah..and they have the raza to lead the salat. If a shaikh with a higher ranking in piety or knowledge is present he would be given the reign to lead salat or pray separate because of the raza.
Your immediate question is on who decides when one is more or less in ranking. Well, from what I know of the bohras...they give specific ranks like NKD, etc that acknowledge this level. This is similar in the Twelver shiahs, but use a different coding of the rankings.
As I mentioned, the raza is given to an amil or a walimullah..and they have the raza to lead the salat. If a shaikh with a higher ranking in piety or knowledge is present he would be given the reign to lead salat or pray separate because of the raza.
Your immediate question is on who decides when one is more or less in ranking. Well, from what I know of the bohras...they give specific ranks like NKD, etc that acknowledge this level. This is similar in the Twelver shiahs, but use a different coding of the rankings.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Whoever has given the most money to buy their patronage appointments, such as Sheikhs, will lead the prayers regardless of the piety or the knowledge acquireds by the person.
For example, we know a real Mulla who has gone to the Bohri Jaamiya for 13 years and who is the WaliMullah must give up being the Imam to lead the prayers to a patronage Sheikh who had spent an enormous amount of money to buy the title (and incidentally do not even know how to recite the "Allahumma Hassin Farji").
These are the so-called performance indicators of the Bohri Imams who lead the prayers.
For example, we know a real Mulla who has gone to the Bohri Jaamiya for 13 years and who is the WaliMullah must give up being the Imam to lead the prayers to a patronage Sheikh who had spent an enormous amount of money to buy the title (and incidentally do not even know how to recite the "Allahumma Hassin Farji").
These are the so-called performance indicators of the Bohri Imams who lead the prayers.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Thank you hur.
To summarize then, a person higher in rank than raza na saheb (amil or walimullah) must not join the imamat prayer because his prayer would be invalid.
The rank is determined by the title bestowed on the person by Sayedna, presumably. It could be NKD etc.
So, we are back to square one. We need to identify a precedent involving a hadith with clear explanation of this practice.
To widen the question a bit, why do Muslims pray imamat namaaz? And what would be the purpose in excluding some from it in any circumstance?
To summarize then, a person higher in rank than raza na saheb (amil or walimullah) must not join the imamat prayer because his prayer would be invalid.
The rank is determined by the title bestowed on the person by Sayedna, presumably. It could be NKD etc.
So, we are back to square one. We need to identify a precedent involving a hadith with clear explanation of this practice.
To widen the question a bit, why do Muslims pray imamat namaaz? And what would be the purpose in excluding some from it in any circumstance?
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khan19922001
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Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Dear Porus
Brother Hur would be very upset if I told him that being a Bohra, I have now started to pray with the mainstream muslims in Saudi Arabia. The reason is simple, there are no Bohra mosques around and I need to educate my children on the importance of congregation prayers and Juma Prayers.
I know that the Bohra's think that only thier mosques are within the hud or something and the mosques of all other muslims do not merit the same respect. I honestly cannot continue to believe this.
On the issue of praying shoulder to shoulder, there is no such concepts in the Bohra mosques, unless the mosque is cowded. In reality everyone spreads out their beatiful white masallah and do not let any one join, the shoulders are definitely not joined. Where as in the mainstream muslims mosques, this is very much the practice. I really did not wnat to join in, but all the comments of Brother Hur, which to me negates the whole concept of congregation prayers, forced me to comment.
Brother Hur would be very upset if I told him that being a Bohra, I have now started to pray with the mainstream muslims in Saudi Arabia. The reason is simple, there are no Bohra mosques around and I need to educate my children on the importance of congregation prayers and Juma Prayers.
I know that the Bohra's think that only thier mosques are within the hud or something and the mosques of all other muslims do not merit the same respect. I honestly cannot continue to believe this.
On the issue of praying shoulder to shoulder, there is no such concepts in the Bohra mosques, unless the mosque is cowded. In reality everyone spreads out their beatiful white masallah and do not let any one join, the shoulders are definitely not joined. Where as in the mainstream muslims mosques, this is very much the practice. I really did not wnat to join in, but all the comments of Brother Hur, which to me negates the whole concept of congregation prayers, forced me to comment.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Br mumineen, that jumaat, with a sheikh who probably cannot recite the "Allahumma Hassin Farji" does not have a monopoly of having such a money made sheikh. In a jamaat I know of, there are a couple of them, + about 5, or probably 6(one looses count on them) mulla title wallas, ofcourse 1 is educated from jamia.And the beauty is there are about 10 families in the jamaat. May be this jamaat should be in Guiness book of records of having most Sheikh/mulla/title holders per member?????Has anybody an experience of such a sheikh sitting on a "gadi" on moulas birthday, and his family/members of the jamaat performing a birthday ceremony(Wadhawa with coconut) as a representative of moula!!!!(this is no hearsay, have experienced this LIVE)
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
A preferred Imam in the sunni mosques is one who is a hafiz.
How many amongst the bohras are hafiz? Does anyone know if a shaikh is a hafiz or if he is just a joke?
Does a bohra know what a hafiz is?
How many amongst the bohras are hafiz? Does anyone know if a shaikh is a hafiz or if he is just a joke?
Does a bohra know what a hafiz is?
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khan19922001
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Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Dear Br. Anjami
This is a personal question and hope that you will not get offended. Are you a Dawoodi Bohra? I am one. But trying to get out, though not very sucessfully.
This is a personal question and hope that you will not get offended. Are you a Dawoodi Bohra? I am one. But trying to get out, though not very sucessfully.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
No, I am not a dawoodi bohra
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Assalamualaikum
I believe the hadith mentioned above regarding shaitan being between gaps in a saf for salat does not refer to shaitan as devil but refers to the evil caused by PREJUDICE i.e. racism/class.
Why would shaitan join a saf? he does not worship Allah and in fact shows disdain for his Creator.
That is why we should stand shoulder to shoulder in salat - to promote unity between the ummah and shun prejudice of any kind.
walaikum salam, mohammed
I believe the hadith mentioned above regarding shaitan being between gaps in a saf for salat does not refer to shaitan as devil but refers to the evil caused by PREJUDICE i.e. racism/class.
Why would shaitan join a saf? he does not worship Allah and in fact shows disdain for his Creator.
That is why we should stand shoulder to shoulder in salat - to promote unity between the ummah and shun prejudice of any kind.
walaikum salam, mohammed
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
racism is a symptom. Shaitan is the cause.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
i agree with you on the unity part, which is one way of looking at it...however if you look at it with a deeper perspective it's talking about how you shouldn't let any distractions or 'evil' come between you and your goal. i presume you weren't present because Syedna Mohammed Burhanudin (tus) did explain further and justify what he said, which i can't do. Anyway, you are supposed to stand the way mentioned above during prayers, just because we aren't squished to one another that doesn't mean we aren't shoulder to shoulder, our masallas are connected and hence we are too.Originally posted by moseeds:
Assalamualaikum
I believe the hadith mentioned above regarding shaitan being between gaps in a saf for salat does not refer to shaitan as devil but refers to the evil caused by PREJUDICE i.e. racism/class.
Why would shaitan join a saf? he does not worship Allah and in fact shows disdain for his Creator.
That is why we should stand shoulder to shoulder in salat - to promote unity between the ummah and shun prejudice of any kind.
walaikum salam, mohammed
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Average Bohra
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Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Dear Wahabi Scientist,
By the way, look forward to your
Last I checked they simply engage in kissy feet ceremony and voluntarily throw $$$...Does a bohra know what a hafiz is?
By the way, look forward to your
comments regarding your brethren committing videotaped beheadings are
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Average moron,
The people committing the beheading are killing an innocent civilian, more like what the Americans are doing in Iraq so they are your brethren more than mine. And I hope all who kill or are responsible for the deaths of innocents will suffer in hell forever, be they your brethren or mine.
The people committing the beheading are killing an innocent civilian, more like what the Americans are doing in Iraq so they are your brethren more than mine. And I hope all who kill or are responsible for the deaths of innocents will suffer in hell forever, be they your brethren or mine.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
However, there is one more possibility, see there are a lot of my brethren who are on cia payroll. Maybe, just maybe, some of them were paid to divert the attention from the abuse!! or may be they weren't even my brethren, maybe they were yours cause after the abuse scandal we know just what your brethren are capable of.
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Apart from all this that has been going on, I would like to re-iterate what our great leader President Bush always says. "The world is a much better place now that Saddam Hussein is gone"
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khan19922001
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Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Dear Tasneem
Again you are saying "our masallah's are connected and so are we" Hello!!!why do you need masallah in the first place. Are your masjids not clean enough. Again if you are on a masallah you will never be close to the person standing next to you as your masallah is a massive piece of cloth.
Bohri's need to learn a lot and namaz is the first thing they should have a look at.
Regards
Again you are saying "our masallah's are connected and so are we" Hello!!!why do you need masallah in the first place. Are your masjids not clean enough. Again if you are on a masallah you will never be close to the person standing next to you as your masallah is a massive piece of cloth.
Bohri's need to learn a lot and namaz is the first thing they should have a look at.
Regards
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khan19922001
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Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Dear Tasneem, Hur, WYP etc
Why are Bohri's fobidden to pray at the non-Bohra mosques or behind a non-Bohri Imam. It is sad that this community is preventing its followers to offer congregational prayers even in Makkah and Madina.
Regards
Why are Bohri's fobidden to pray at the non-Bohra mosques or behind a non-Bohri Imam. It is sad that this community is preventing its followers to offer congregational prayers even in Makkah and Madina.
Regards
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Dear Khan,
If I may interject..I have seen many bohras at non-bohra mosque. They don't pray with the niyyat of jamat because they behind, as all shias do, that you must pray behind the Imam or someone place in the position to represent him.
Regarding musallah, it is sunnah to put a place a cleaned mat for the forehead (at minimum). While most masajids are clean...they are few that can maintain what is called "tahir" clean (equivalent to wudu). It is said that the place of prostration must be "tahir" so that the person touch it doesn't not break his wudu. As we all know, masjid are used for more than just salat. And I can't think of a masajid that washes their carpets or rugs every day.
Regarding closing ranks in the saf of salat, there are two explaination of this. Shoulder to shoulder is refer to being in line with the person next to...not necessarily touching shoulder to shoulder. Actually if you pray shoulder to shoulder..it is very difficult to do ruku and sujud properly...because your arms are not suppose to touch you sides. The closing ranks refer to joining the jamat in pray and completing the safs so there are no spaces between.
If I may interject..I have seen many bohras at non-bohra mosque. They don't pray with the niyyat of jamat because they behind, as all shias do, that you must pray behind the Imam or someone place in the position to represent him.
Regarding musallah, it is sunnah to put a place a cleaned mat for the forehead (at minimum). While most masajids are clean...they are few that can maintain what is called "tahir" clean (equivalent to wudu). It is said that the place of prostration must be "tahir" so that the person touch it doesn't not break his wudu. As we all know, masjid are used for more than just salat. And I can't think of a masajid that washes their carpets or rugs every day.
Regarding closing ranks in the saf of salat, there are two explaination of this. Shoulder to shoulder is refer to being in line with the person next to...not necessarily touching shoulder to shoulder. Actually if you pray shoulder to shoulder..it is very difficult to do ruku and sujud properly...because your arms are not suppose to touch you sides. The closing ranks refer to joining the jamat in pray and completing the safs so there are no spaces between.
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Average Bohra
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Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Khanxxx,
Your concern is misguided.
Israel allows it...why not Saudi Arabia ?
Your concern is misguided.
The more important and significant question is, why are Bohris and all non-Wahabis not allowed to practice their faith the way they see fit in Saudi Arabia ? Why should they be forced to pray at ANY mosque other than their own ?Why are Bohri's fobidden to pray at the non-Bohra mosques or behind a non-Bohri Imam.
Israel allows it...why not Saudi Arabia ?
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khan19922001
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Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Dear Brother Hur
"They don't pray with the niyyat of jamat because they behind, as all shias do, that you must pray behind the Imam or someone place in the position to represent him."
Is there something mistyped in this para as it is not clear. " because they behind"
This is what I was getting at. Why do they make a mockery of the prayers in Makkah and Madina. It is quite obvious what is happening. The Bohra's enter the mosques when the Jamaat is over. In Maghreb, because the time is short, the Bohra's quickly pray the three rakats as soon as the first azan is given and becasue they cannot rush out pretend to pray with the rest of the people. This is what I find very wrong.
To Average Bohra. What Saudi Arabia allows or disallows is the right of its Government. If you don't like it you can leave. I personally think that the policies adopted by the Saudi Government is very rational. By not allowing every minscule sect to create thier own mosques it has prevented disunity in the Muslim Ummah as is very evident in India and Pakistan.
Regards
"They don't pray with the niyyat of jamat because they behind, as all shias do, that you must pray behind the Imam or someone place in the position to represent him."
Is there something mistyped in this para as it is not clear. " because they behind"
This is what I was getting at. Why do they make a mockery of the prayers in Makkah and Madina. It is quite obvious what is happening. The Bohra's enter the mosques when the Jamaat is over. In Maghreb, because the time is short, the Bohra's quickly pray the three rakats as soon as the first azan is given and becasue they cannot rush out pretend to pray with the rest of the people. This is what I find very wrong.
To Average Bohra. What Saudi Arabia allows or disallows is the right of its Government. If you don't like it you can leave. I personally think that the policies adopted by the Saudi Government is very rational. By not allowing every minscule sect to create thier own mosques it has prevented disunity in the Muslim Ummah as is very evident in India and Pakistan.
Regards
Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Dear Khan,
Shiah belief is to pray behind the IMAM in jamat or a appointed representative of the IMAM.
The imam of pray in Makkah and Medinah do not recognize this belief..and thus if someone prays separately they consider it an offense. What is wrong is that Saudi doesn't recognize the belief of other muslim..only their tariqah.
They don't have any right to govern Makkah and Madinah...it is beyond their right. Maybe Jeddah and Riyadh. They have created even more disunity...because they force their take on Islam over every other muslim...as though they are correct and everyone else is wrong. The fact is their beliefs are in the small minority.
So what the bohras do is a compromise...they complete their prayer as per their beliefs and pray with the rest in the intent not to offend. The sad part is that they have to do this in order to practice what they believe!
Shiah belief is to pray behind the IMAM in jamat or a appointed representative of the IMAM.
The imam of pray in Makkah and Medinah do not recognize this belief..and thus if someone prays separately they consider it an offense. What is wrong is that Saudi doesn't recognize the belief of other muslim..only their tariqah.
They don't have any right to govern Makkah and Madinah...it is beyond their right. Maybe Jeddah and Riyadh. They have created even more disunity...because they force their take on Islam over every other muslim...as though they are correct and everyone else is wrong. The fact is their beliefs are in the small minority.
So what the bohras do is a compromise...they complete their prayer as per their beliefs and pray with the rest in the intent not to offend. The sad part is that they have to do this in order to practice what they believe!
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Average Bohra
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Re: seyedna says pray shoulder to shoulder
Khanxx,
My apologies. I didn't realize that being on a "progressive" board, you can still hold the belief that a government should dictate and control religion ( " What Saudi Arabia allows or disallows is the right of its Government )
By not allowing every minscule sect to create thier own mosques it has prevented disunity in the Muslim Ummah
Well that is one way to control religion. Disallow who you don't agree with and we shall all be united {!?}
Wow again...the current state of the Muslim Ummah is now in perspective...and united ain't the first term to come to mind....
Suddenly being an orthodox Dawoodi Bohra doesn't seem bad at all .... I will reconsider.
My apologies. I didn't realize that being on a "progressive" board, you can still hold the belief that a government should dictate and control religion ( " What Saudi Arabia allows or disallows is the right of its Government )
Wow ! Forgive me, but I never saw Saudi Arabia as a symbol of cohesive unity.By not allowing every minscule sect to create thier own mosques it has prevented disunity in the Muslim Ummah
True, and that leaves no room for discussion dialoque, and exchange of ideas. I assume you will no longer post on this board ? I assume that you encourage all muslims to leave all countries that don't enforce a religion and move to a country that **only** allows the practice of one religion..... Your idea will be very popular in the civilized world, especially now.If you don't like it you can leave.
By not allowing every minscule sect to create thier own mosques it has prevented disunity in the Muslim Ummah
Well that is one way to control religion. Disallow who you don't agree with and we shall all be united {!?}
Wow again...the current state of the Muslim Ummah is now in perspective...and united ain't the first term to come to mind....
Suddenly being an orthodox Dawoodi Bohra doesn't seem bad at all .... I will reconsider.