Forum Rules

[anajmi]

With power comes kotharigiri. The Admin is beginning to display his power. Gone are the days when this forum was really free. Coming are the days of evolution when you can only say what the Admin wants you to say. Welcome to the new maalumat.com

[Admin]

We feel that the discussion and name calling over Ismaili/Wahabi issue has gone on forever. When we try to control it and keep it sane and sensible we are accused of misusing our power. So let's put the whole issue to a vote. Let members decide what they want.

[znanwalla]

Dear Admin,

Najmi and his friends love to speak from both ends of their mouth ! Freedom without honour is not freedom ! It becomes an abuse - it may also become libellous or tort and so if that occurs, would you assume total responsibility as owners of this group? if so then please state so clearly here and now as many of the members using their nom de plumes will disappear into thin air leaving the Admin holding the sticky end - do make sure that they all provide you with their information and you know who they are and are willing to accept liability, if ever the time comes for them to assume such liability....

How can any of you say that Najmi and party represent the Wahabbis or the Sunnis? Or that the opponents represent the Ismailis at large? No they don't !....So why would anyone, including the Admin, want to accept anyone giving such an incorrect impression of Ismailis v/s Wahabbis? or are they and You trying to say that the Wahaabis love all the other Shi'as except the ismailis Or are they saying that they have the authority to represent their respective communities?....

People are offering their own individual views and grinding their own stone due to personal wounds and so frankly why would the Admin want to allow their site to become a platform for abuse and slander?.....even Mir Bose was brought to his knees - I am sure you all know that by now ! .....

If Maherally is still barking it is only because of the generosity of the Imam but what if the Imamat decides to act? then will the Admin or all the members here who have voted, be willing to carry also the legal and moral responsibiltiy as empowerment and accountability goes hand in hand ? if so then please state and declare this too - I do know some of the owners and then do what you like....infact the Wahabbis think all the Sh'ias are Kufrs...so? It is obvious that the intended voting and discussion, titling Ismailis v/s Wahabbis is an exagerration and is totally dishonourable in its intent and the Admin does NOT have to succumb to the antics of miscreants like Najmi and MF and place yourselves, unduly in a vulnerable situation.

So I suggest that you act with prudence and care....many may have mastered the technique of infiltrating instruments of "democracy" but it may, for all you know, just betray a genuflection without any caveat that dsplays a hideous disparity - perhaps an "apartheid ".

Why would you want to allow a Bohra site to become a hurtling place? What if tomorrow all the ismaili sites and there are many do the same towards you in retaliation? how will you then feel? how will you react?

So are you then as the Admin and owners willing to live in an era of manufacturing consent for this tiny coterie of undeserving folks who , to begin with, should NOT even be members of your group?

I am sure you do not want to be a party to any reckless attitude, lithering and trembling because a man like Najmi feels disillusioned that he is not allowed to abuse?...it is up to now Admin...Thanks

zn

[turbocanuck]

W Gone are the days when this forum was really free.

Gone are the days when the Muslimofascists would bully all others with impunity. There are those who would normally be "bystanders" and are now more Pro-active in stemming the Thuggery of the MuslimoFascists.

[Admin]

znanwalla,

Please do not read too much into the title. There are two groups whose approaches can be broadly described as Ismaili and Wahabi. Maybe this characterization is not accurate but let's not split hairs, we all know what and who we are talking about.

As for libelous comments we assume no responsibility. Please read the fourm policy and terms.

We are committed to providing a forum for free discussion. But over the past few months, these two groups have hijacked the discussion - one condemning Wahabis and the other Ismailis, often unprovoked and in posts that are irrelevant to the topic under discussion, and in a language and manner that is vicious and uncivil. This internecine and endless debate only interests a minority of members and has managed to put off a lot of regular members and have caused people like pour to leave - much to our regret.

We have decided put an end to this and are committed to keep discussion free from the agenda of either group. If this is seen as "end of freedom" then so be it.

[znanwalla]

Dear Admin,

Thank you ! I am much obliged to you and I am happy that you have found it worth your while to consider my request positively as such useless sectarian discussions do not enhance the reputation or credibility of any group.

Even in a broader context, the subject "Ismailis v/s Wahabbis" was misconceived, defective and bad in law and certainly against your own ethics and which I am sure you have now recognized it also.

Human wisdom is summed up in two words..."wait and hope" ! You may be dealing with creatures of emotion and so there is one factor that can make a difference and that factor is attitude. It is not easy to change the inevitable and the damage has already been done. You can still prevent future occurrences.

Words are things and a small drop of ink, falling like a dew upon a thought, produces that which makes thousands, perhaps millions think and so it may just be a matter of perception how we each take this to be.

In law defamation is regarded as an act of damaging the reputation of another by means of false and caluminous communications and that is what I saw happening though your rules stipulate otherwise. Mistakes do happen !I do not find even a "defence" of fair comment existing here as this entails the application of certain criteria and freedom of speech without honour is not freedom, if you will.Truth can be the only defence and having a disclaimer may or may not be sufficient either as it ultimately boils down to "intent" as well as "committal".

Free speech is legitimately subjected to reasonable restrictions and within groups such as yours, the balance cannot be allowed to tilt in favour of any group or individuals holding an agenda or sectarian agonies or personal wounds and want to simply grind their own stone...riding on your back and which is unfair, to say the least.....once again thank you and best regards...zn

[Admin]

znanwalla,

Spare us your lecture and stop making veiled threats to us. There are "creatures of emotions" on both sides so stop being so self-righteous. And remember, participation on this forum is a privilege, not a right.

[znanwalla]

Dear Admin,
I am certainly complaining to you that it is unfair to allow your forum to attack Ismailis.....and if you have a bone to pick with us and then say so openly.....Yes! creatures of emotion are on both sides and I never said anything is one sided but people also have a right to defend when attacked ...even the prophet defended...that is Jihad....why are you allowing Mf and party to abuse the Ismaili Imam and the community? are they in control or are you in control? I am only asking for you to be fair and just.zn

[Admin]

znanwalla,
Let's be clear about one thing. We're not allowing anybody to attack anybody. Each side is giving back as good as it gets. So let's not play the martyr. If you ask us, you are not actually defending your faith, by responding to "attacks" you are simply inviting more "attack". About abuse and insult we are very explicit that we won't allow it - especially against religious heads and leaders. We try to delete them wherever we find it. If anything escapes our notice please alert us.

[Danish]

I voted NO, for obvious reasons.

[znanwalla]

Thank you ! even I voted a big NO ! such discussions have no educational value !..zn

[Admin]

We deleted some posts to protect a member's identity.

[Muslim First]

such discussions have no educational value !..zn

It is up to you to decide if you are here to learn about us and educate about you. Posts like discovery of Panjatann Paak stone tablet does not help you to educate us.

May your Maula guide you to Islam
May Allah guide your Maula to true Islam

[Africawala0000]

Admin

We deleted some posts to protect a member's identity.

How did that member's identity lend into the lap of another member? Is the perpetrator member of Admin? Or is Admin in bed with the perpetrator?

Legally a member of the Admin should not be harassing and abusing people in the forum. He then becomes antagonist and not a part of Admin.

Africawala0000

[znanwalla]

MF.....MAY YOUR MULLAS AND MUFTIS GUIDE YOU CORRECTLY !

Frankly there is nothing you guys can teach us about Islam...neither are we interested to "teach" you as this is not our responsibility either !....Your pillars of faith without ADL and Imamat is incomplete ! Your text of the Quran too is NOT persipicous either - Allah's Book is complete and flawless - Your text is lacking and created for you ! Anyone who disobeys the Prophet also disobeyed Allah !...so what Islam can you ever teach us? There is nothing you have or know of any value to us !

We do not feel inferior at all ! rather it is just the opposite. You are way inferior in all respects..


zn

[anajmi]

How did that member's identity lend into the lap of another member?

That is because the member whose identity was exposed was a graduate from the university of stupidity. These morons can't protect their own identities from themselves and think that they are going to protect the crystal skull of knowledge from the world.

[znanwalla]

najmi, go and fool your folks at home ! It looks like you are this graduate of stupidity !

13."... On the day when the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women will say unto those who believe: Look on us that we may borrow from your light! it will be said: Go back and seek for light! Then there will separate them a wall wherein is a gate, the inner side whereof containeth mercy, while the outer side thereof is toward the doom...". That is your fate !...zn

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

Due to your ignominy, you are unable to appreciate the blessings Allah has sent on this earth to mankind !

You are like spoilt children who have dropped their cookies in the mud and wants it but are unable to have them has they are now sullied ! That is why you are so petty and jealous about those who are firmly clinging to what their Prophet had told them to do !...zn

[Admin]

Admin
How did that member's identity lend into the lap of another member? Is the perpetrator member of Admin? Or is Admin in bed with the perpetrator?
Legally a member of the Admin should not be harassing and abusing people in the forum. He then becomes antagonist and not a part of Admin.

Africawala0000,
You're being paranoid. And it is the same paranoia that led the member in question to unwittingly reveal her own identity. You and she should be thankful to us that we voluntarily deleted those posts to control the damage. Talk of being grateful!!!

[Muslim First]

Adnin

Thanks

Zn's responses bacame much short. Tnx for edit.

Wasalaam

[Africawala0000]

Admin,

Africawala0000,
You're being paranoid. And it is the same paranoia that led the member in question to unwittingly reveal her own identity. You and she should be thankful to us that we voluntarily deleted those posts to control the damage. Talk of being grateful!!!

I am not being paranoid. You are trying hard to cover yourself. Once you spit, you cannot take that spit back. And I do not even believe what you are saying. What should I be grateful to you for? For the abuses that have ben heaped on my Imam and my faith with impunity? For my family member's profession being flaunted on your forum, huh? Should Gulf also be grateful to you for flaunting his ID on your forum by Admin?

The person who revealed my family's personal information could not have gained access to it if he did not have the blessings of the Admin. The post was removed before I could copy it. So now I have no proof. This is no paranoia. It is a fact.

Africawala0000

[znanwalla]

MF..stop acting up like a lap dog ! We don't care if they edit or delete...it will not deter us against you at all....You guys are deluded and love to suppress the truth !When Prophet said "hold fast to my Book" YOU go and compile YOUR own text and call it the Prophet's Book !...does it not tell you that a Book was already existing or did he ask anyone to start compiling pages from different scribes and put them together and call it his Book after many scribes had died already and goats had eaten some parchments ? At what point does a revelation cease to be a revelation? ask yourselves? maybe YOu dont understand what is hearsay v/s revelation. Ask Admin ? they might help you here !...zn

[Danish]

I humbly request admin to totally ban/delete Islamili/Wahabi bashing involved from both ends that has degraded with profane language used and personal attacks all over the forum even after repeated warnings. I shall refrain from further postings until such demeaning effects are taken care of. This hinders the purpose and advancement for ethical discussions and reformation and further deters one from participation out of fear of getting bashed. Although tolerance of critcism and pertinent concerns have been willfully favoured, misusing them by untoward advocations and illwill must be stopped. I would hope that more of Dawoodi Bohra orthodox or mainstream and as well as religious minded personalities take keen part in civil discussions/debate of any nature.

[znanwalla]

I agree ! this forum was created for a certain communal purpose....it is being derailed unduly...there is no need to attck the ismailis or their Imamat ! I am sure once that stops, the forum may become more enjoyable for everyone concerned....we ceratinly do have a lot to contribute in terms of knowledge...zn

[Humsafar]

I'm fully aware that what I'm going to say will act like fresh salt on already raw wounds. Hardly a recipe for winning friends - on either side. Please know I'm no mood to get drawn into a discussion.

First, a general observation. I find it amazing that Ismailies on this board can be so threatened and can become so unhinged by a bunch of freelance wahabis. Where is the solidity, the confidence, the certitude that comes with the knowing that you are on the right path, that your faith is true and perfect and good? Why this touchiness, why this constant need defend your faith as if faith, any faith, needs defending?

Want to make two points about Ismaili-Wahabi discussion.
First, the two groups are talking about two different things and are trying to prove to the other that which the other cannot see. Here's an analogy. You're like people standing on different sides of a mountain. You see different things, a different scenery and believe in the truth of what you see. Which is fine, but if you have to see what is on the other side of the mountain you must take a walk there and see it for yourself. But neither of you has the ability to walk to the other side and see what the other is seeing. Instead, you are engaged in the impossible task of convincing the other that they accept what you're seeing and saying. This is ultimately a dialogue of the blind and, to extend the metaphor, can lead to nothing but an endless blind alley.

Second, both parties - ismailis and wahabis - unfortunately labour under the same dogma albeit of different flavours. Ismailism makes claims to refinement and intellectual evoltution while wahabism swears by purity and pristine values of faith. Both are highly entrenched in their respective theologies and equally intolerant of each other and are prepared to set aside their purity and refinement to abuse each other. But in ultimate analysis, what are they butting their heads about? What are they defending? Nothing more than their version of the story. And, when everything is said and done, it is just a story. Nothing more, nothing less. Wahabis want to end their story with the Prophet but Ismailis want to spice it up, so to speak, with Ali and Imams. Wahabis are stuck with the old dogma and Ismailis with the new. But dogma it is no matter how they slice it, dice it or spice it. The claim of superiority of one over the the other is only marginal and highly misplaced.

[znanwalla]

Dear Humsafar,

The wahabbis consider all Sh'ias as heretics and that includes you too and the Bohras, be they Progressives or not ! the observation which you are making is not somewhat valid as the "attack" is not being made against Shias in general or Imamat itself and that is the crux of the issue here....there is an orchestrated campaign of villification against only the ismaili Imamat and belief !

Is it any of anyone's business what we belief or not believe? People should mind their own business and follow their own path, if you will and let Allah judge at the end of the day for HE will Judge and tell us wherein we all have differed....don't attack our belief or our Imams and then expect us to always remain silent...

What pristine beliefs are you talking of? is there anything pristine or pure about anyone who disobeyed the prophet when disobedience to him was disobedience to Allah? in any case have we asked any of you to follow our Imams? have we come and told any of you that what you are doing is not right ? then what right do you folks have to facilitate and offer this forum to miscreants to embark on this campaign of villification and defamation?

Whilst it may be "asthetically" convenient for you to suggest and offer your views and then say to us you are not in a mood to debate, isn't it abundantly clear that the intent is one of bias when both sides do not receive the same benefit and a level playing field ?

Or are you trying to arbitrarily decide the innocence or guilt of people who have been relentlessly attacked unfairly on this forum?

Amoralsing does not suit you well either. We do not feel threatened by morons from a Pig sty but it is also a sin in islam to offer inequity or accept inequity and so with a bully we will continue to act as a bully and if Admin cancels our membership so be it and we don't care as then we will move as per our contingencies as there do exist other options to us but we will not allow MF and Najmi to malign us freely notwithstanding your rhetoric....

If they mind their own business ! we will do the same ! It is upon the Admin now....sometimes it is easier for you folks to ignore the uncomfortable facts and go along with whatever distortion is currently in vogue and we see right here and find it unbelievable knowing that this is a Bohra site (Shi'a) and this is what makes us cringe also and then your own agenda also becimes clear to us.

Thus the facts that we do find unravelled here in this Bohra site does not support the labels you all so euphemistically attach to yourselves and democracy, freedom and self-determination cannot be forced fed in this way by using people like MF and Najmi to further your cause unless you yourselves have no faith and confidence in what you are doing or pursuing?

And so it is wrong to cower in the shadows and allow unilateralism and false statements to proliferate...such callous disemling will, at some point in time, be no longer acceptable as ultimately nothing is worth the lies being churned out here and against us....this is morally unacceptable and should be to all !

zn

[pardesi]

Brother Humsafar,

I respect your wish to not get drawn into a debate. However, I must respond in general to your post.

Just because we have taken issue with what some of us felt was a violation of their privacy, does not in any way mean that we have come unglued. Each one of us here, including you, are blessed with knowledge that most are not and therefore we engage each other in debates over difference of opinions. Ismailis on this website have not made an issue over theology/beliefs, on the contrary we have always been ridiculed about our beliefs. We welcome discussions over topics of mutual interest but some of our friends do not feel we possess enough knowledge about Islam and feel offended when we have something to say or question them for their understanding of Islam.

I agree with Humsafar that at times the parties are talking about two different things, each one trying to prove their own point and in the end, if there is an end, the subject is derailed to Ismaili Imams and Ismaili faith. Humsafar's analogy about two groups standing on each side of the mountain is a good one but what if one side(Ismailis) has crossed the mountain from the other side(Sunni/Wahhabi) and that the scenery on the "other side" they came from was never going to be allowed to change? That is what we feel about that "other side"(Sunni/Wahhabi). Been there, done that and moved on. On the other hand people on the "other side"(Sunni/Wahhabi), as far as Ismailis are concerned have never been to "this side"(Ismailis) and therefore have no idea what we are talking about. Gazzalli is a perfect example until he crossed that mountain.

Ismailis here are quite capable of taking on the Wahhabis on theology issues should they wish to enter into a sincere debate leaving their slurs about Ismailis and their Imams and their family outside the door just like leaving your shoes outside when you enter into a Prayer hall. On second thought, only Ismailis do that including Bohras. The rest of the Ummah brings their shoes (garbage) with them when they come for Prayers!

We are here to stay and not run, until and unless we are thrown out.

[Aarif]

Want to make two points about Ismaili-Wahabi discussion.
First, the two groups are talking about two different things and are trying to prove to the other that which the other cannot see. Here's an analogy. You're like people standing on different sides of a mountain. You see different things, a different scenery and believe in the truth of what you see.

Humsafar,

Nothing against your post but honestly the above qoute is not well put. I do not think that people following the same religion should have different perspectives to this great a extent. Islam is based on simple five pillars. All muslims follow that. If some do not than they should have the balls to admit it. And we can leave it at that. The problem starts when one tries to spin stories and evade truth about their faith. If Ismailies do not follow five pillers of Islam as other muslims do they need to admit it and move on. They don't have to justify their stand by retaliating negatively and blaming the wrong doings of certain people on all the other followers of Islam... In fact by doing that they are making it clear that they are not muslims. Because how can a wrong doing of one muslim be blamed on another muslim by a person who calls himself a muslim???

Also, if the Ismaili Imam is a desendent of prophet (pbuh) than he obviously cannot be just limited to the Ismailies. It is every muslim's business to find out the truth about this Imam and his preachings about the religion that they are following...

[znanwalla]

Najmi, who told you that Islam is based on just FIVE Pillars ? Not at all ! If you claim so assuredly that you follow the Book of Allah ( which I sincerely doubt but assuming you do) then ..."Verily, Allah commands ‘Adl (fairness, justice, balance, equity), Ihsan (excellence in servitude to Allah, benevolence towards people, graciousness in dealings) and giving to those close to you, while He forbids Fahshaa (lewdness, indecency, licentiousness, immorality), Munkar (bad actions,
undesirable activities, unacceptable behaviour), and Baghy (rebellion, transgressing limits, exploiting or violating others’ rights, abuse of authority or freedom). He admonishes you so that you heed the advice. 16:90...."

Now you folks show lewdness towards all and sundry ! You have never learn what it means to be gracious ! and "giving those close to you" is showing them hatred as opposed to love as muslims are all bound by the common Shahada and are supposedly brothers and sisters unto each other....but then you are forbidden to love them (God knows by whom)?...exploiting and violating other people's rights is your mainstay...so which brand of islam are you talking about? and what Pillars become complete without ADL, even I were to leave out Imamat for now !...

O believers, persistently stand up for Allah as witnesses for Qist, and do
not let the hatred of any people prevent you from being just. Be just; that
is more congruent with God consciousness. Maintain consciousness of Allah;
Allah is well aware of what you do. 5:8

Unless all this does not appear in your text ? Allah is clear in this regard !

zn

[pardesi]

Humsafar,

Nothing against your post but honestly the above qoute is not well put. I do not think that people following the same religion should have different perspectives to this great a extent. Islam is based on simple five pillars. All muslims follow that. If some do not than they should have the balls to admit it. And we can leave it at that.

Which pillars? Islam does not need pillars, in my opinion, it is your faith that you strengthen upon those pillars. If you follow four and leave out the fifth does that weaken Islam or your faith? Rituals dont make religion, religion makes rituals. Some muslims believe in more than five pillars which you might call unnecessary. Here again you have contradicted yourself when you told me you were a Bohra. You are actually a Sunni as only Sunnis believe in only five pillar and only God knows how far they go in observing those pillars. If someone's approach to the pillars of faith is different than yours then you should "leave it at that" also, don't you think?

The problem starts when one tries to spin stories and evade truth about their faith. If Ismailies do not follow five pillers of Islam as other muslims do they need to admit it and move on.

....as other muslims do...? You are starting the same argument again? Spinning stories and evading truth by the Ismailis as just your opinion based on how you have understood it, not the truth! We have said the same things about you. You want us to follow Islam as "other muslims do" - Why? Are you saying that the Sunni path is correct and all the other paths are deviated?

They don't have to justify their stand by retaliating negatively and blaming the wrong doings of certain people on all the other followers of Islam... In fact by doing that they are making it clear that they are not muslims. Because how can a wrong doing of one muslim be blamed on another muslim by a person who calls himself a muslim???

The first sentense in your post above applies to you too. And whos wrong doings are you talking about? These other followers are Sunnis just like you and we bring it to light to show you that following your path has not helped them become better muslims either. And pointing out faults within your own system does not make one a Non Muslim.

Also, if the Ismaili Imam is a desendent of prophet (pbuh) than he obviously cannot be just limited to the Ismailies. It is every muslim's business to find out the truth about this Imam and his preachings about the religion that they are following...

I somewhat agree with your first sentense. But it is "not every muslims business" to judge the Imam and his preachings. If you are a Bohra, how would you judge your Imam who is "ghaib"? And what if you do not agree with this Imam's preaching? It is obvious from your post that if the Imam is from the progeny of Mohammad then there is a genuine need for Imam from the Ahle Bayt, just like all the Shias (including Bohras and YOU) believe. Now if you do not agree with his ways and teachings and there is still a need for the Imam to guide the Ummah, would you nominate someone else and if so, who? You have not understood the concept of Imamat. Imams are not nominated by followers, they are appointed by Allah and therefore you have no right to judge them. You have always confused this Imam with the one in your masjid/madrassa. Heck you have even said that you would analyse? the work of Prophet(s) and Imam(s) before showing them respect, right?

I am open to a sincere and honest discussion over this topic if you have the guts. Leave your trickeries and lying self behind and lets discuss. I am sure it will end up like the last time you started a thread and three posts later walked out.

If you noticed, I preferred to call you a Sunni instead of a Wahhabi so as not to irk some in position of authority.

Pardesi.