Dear All,
I’ve been visiting this website for a few months now and finally registered because I wanted to share something with the members here & raise a few questions which I think any true thinking progressive person should consider. It was great to see that many here can truly see the Dawoodi Bohra Jamat under ‘Aqa Moula’ for what it truly is - A totalitarian, patriarchal, tightly controlled community where absolutely no descent or criticism is tolerated and as long as you keep giving a good chunk of your earnings silently with complete obedience, you will be fine. There was a movement necessary to expose what really goes on under the ‘holy’ guidance of Aqa Moula and the so called royal family and a good amount of that has been achieved here on this website. Kudos to you all who have contributed to the reform movement. However, it was disappointing to see that although people here did start in the right direction, many got rid of one authoritarian dictator but are still clinging on to an ultimate supreme dictator and trying to find the “true” identity of Dawoodi Bohra…and in doing this, diverging midway from a rational and non-superstitious way of life.
Believing in the supernatural powers of Aqa Moula is no more irrational or illogical than believing in the existence of an all powerful cosmic creator who focuses on petty things like in what position you pray, poop, sleep or have sex while millions of children die every month out of starvation or some dreadful disease. There is not a shred of evidence that any such creator exists. To some, it might be very comforting to believe that there is a higher form of justice, someone who is looking after you and will help when you need it…but there is a difference between what you want to be true and what actually is true. Wishful thinking is a common attribute in children but many times this specific attribute persists well into adulthood. To shake oneself out of believing in this adult imaginary friend, one only needs to walk in a children’s hospital to realize that there could be no such god or supreme being. And even if such a god exists, I would any day prefer to burn in hell as opposed to spending an eternity with such a cruel, unethical, morally bankrupt, megalomaniac dictator, whose moral standards are not even at par with any average kind human being.
I know that the people who are reading this are rational thinking persons who have started a very brave movement in the direction of progressivism. But can you truly say that you are being intellectually honest in the search for the truth? Aren’t you simply replacing one kind of dogma with another? You might say that people who blindly follow each and every order from the Jamat without thinking for themselves are brainwashed but then what would you say about yourself? Aren’t you following rules and orders of some earlier self-proclaimed prophet? I was a Dawoodi Bohra too when I was young. Upon asking questions and searching for answers, it was soon obvious to me that the Dawoodi Bohra community under Aqa Moula is nothing short of a money-making racket, selling solutions to gullible people of the imaginary problems they themselves have created. Upon further scrutiny, I found that Islam itself was not that different and was basically a figment of imagination of Mohammad and his alter ego – Allah. And it is pretty much similar in other major monotheistic religions.
I am an Atheist now. One cannot say rationally that his or her religion is the right one and all others are false or fraudulent. Because he/she is coming to that conclusion solely based on blind faith & personal experience & no evidence…which is exactly what all other the religions are doing anyway. I too can say that I believe in Leprechauns or Unicorns & I don’t need evidence because I too have my faith & personal experience…and this will be no different compared to what a believer does. An irrational thought or belief system doesn’t suddenly become justified simply coz a million people believe in it instead of just one. Based on the current available evidence, it is very likely that there is no god of any kind at all. However, if any conclusive evidence turns up tomorrow, I am ready to change my mind on it. But if you flip the argument, what will it take for You to be convinced that there is probably no god? Have you kept any room for the possibility that there might not be a celestial supreme being after all? I hope you sincerely ask this question to yourself and that you’ll not do the same to me what others have done onto you…ignoring the message completely and instead, attacking the messenger...
Regards,
Mustansir
OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
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accountability
- Posts: 1640
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Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
Welcome mustansir. I read your post. well you belong to one school of thought. I have no problem with that, there is logic in it. But at the same time you are creating your own religion, and like other socalled religious contractors you want everyone else to believe in what you are saying.
Two extremes will never meet anywhere. While it is very hard to prove the existence of supreme entity, at the same time it is even harder to deny. The rest is heresay. The soloution does not lie in total denial or complete acceptance. WE may have to find human kind of soloutions. Freedom is the key. What orthodox religeon does is to exploit the fear of unknown. What ethiesm does is to exploit the unknown. I take ethiesm as a religion too, it requires one to believe in non existence.
Two extremes will never meet anywhere. While it is very hard to prove the existence of supreme entity, at the same time it is even harder to deny. The rest is heresay. The soloution does not lie in total denial or complete acceptance. WE may have to find human kind of soloutions. Freedom is the key. What orthodox religeon does is to exploit the fear of unknown. What ethiesm does is to exploit the unknown. I take ethiesm as a religion too, it requires one to believe in non existence.
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
Welcome, Mustasir. I know you mean well but you seem to be mixing up a lot of things here. You must understand that the reformist movement mainly concerns itself with the social issues that plague our community. It's agenda is to bring "social" reforms within the framework of Islam, Fatimid-Tayaabi doctrine and dawoodi bohra tradition. This is the limit and the extent of the space it has allowed itself, anything beyond that is none of its concern. You're suggesting that it should be, and it is based on the assumption that "progress" is a path that goes from religion to atheism. I'd like to argue that that assumption is wrong.
But in any case, the reform movement as it stands now is not going to change its agenda and raison d'etre any time soon. As for questioning god and religion and all that, it is entirely up to an individual. Everybody should do it, not just progressive dawoodi bohras. And while we are at it, why just stop at question god and religion? Why not question atheism, too? Atheism is a position that would not exist without religion. In the end both are just concepts, and Reality transcends them both.
But in any case, the reform movement as it stands now is not going to change its agenda and raison d'etre any time soon. As for questioning god and religion and all that, it is entirely up to an individual. Everybody should do it, not just progressive dawoodi bohras. And while we are at it, why just stop at question god and religion? Why not question atheism, too? Atheism is a position that would not exist without religion. In the end both are just concepts, and Reality transcends them both.
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
One more thing, when you say
what do you mean by "truth" and can you honestly search it "intellectually"?But can you truly say that you are being intellectually honest in the search for the truth?
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Al Zulfiqar
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Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
mustansir, welcome to this board.
you have the right to propose yr views as do the others who come here with all shades of beliefs and faiths.
all thinking people throughout our short human history have struggled with the concept of a divine entity which controls us. all great philosophers, prophets and scientists have at one time or another been forced to confront their 'demons' - their doubts, their difficulty in accepting a benevolent god who would allow so much injustice and pain in this world and let innocents suffer, their insecurities, their disturbed thoughts, the criticism from society and their inner turmoil.
if u have read bertrand russel, upto his death he struggled with the concept of god and his acceptance. that did not make him a despicable human being, on the contrary a more human one. no one here has the right to judge you. for you to expect that the reformists should take on the mandate of reform to its zenith, to expect denial of god itself, is and never will be a desired goal. what you want is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
in any case, pls feel free to raise yr points and express yr views as long as they dont become offensive to others.
you have the right to propose yr views as do the others who come here with all shades of beliefs and faiths.
all thinking people throughout our short human history have struggled with the concept of a divine entity which controls us. all great philosophers, prophets and scientists have at one time or another been forced to confront their 'demons' - their doubts, their difficulty in accepting a benevolent god who would allow so much injustice and pain in this world and let innocents suffer, their insecurities, their disturbed thoughts, the criticism from society and their inner turmoil.
if u have read bertrand russel, upto his death he struggled with the concept of god and his acceptance. that did not make him a despicable human being, on the contrary a more human one. no one here has the right to judge you. for you to expect that the reformists should take on the mandate of reform to its zenith, to expect denial of god itself, is and never will be a desired goal. what you want is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
in any case, pls feel free to raise yr points and express yr views as long as they dont become offensive to others.
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
“If atheism is a religion then not collecting stamps is a hobby…”
To accountability –
Saying that atheism is basically just another religion is a very gross & fundamental mistake. It is like saying there is no difference between day and night. Here is the difference – In most religions, one believes in something supernatural that cannot be proven. However, atheism does not stand for believing that there is no god. It is defined as the absence of belief in the existence of deities. Thus, as an atheist I Do Not believe (absence of belief) there is a god, which is significantly different than saying “I believe there is no god”. It’s not just another “belief” system but it is the absence of belief and consequently not even remotely similar to a religion. Hope the difference is clear.
To Hamsafar & Al Zulfiqar -
As for the site, I didn’t realize that the movement was mainly of a social reform and not in ideas or thought process also…and for that I apologize. I’ve no interest in changing everyone here to an atheist. My goal was to just speak my mind and try to understand how one can say that following Aqa Moula blindly without question is a form of brainwashing and irrational behaviour but if you replace Aqa Moula with Mohammad along with the Quran, then suddenly everything changes. And now it is okay to follow blindly without question. I know that the debate on existence of god has been going on for centuries. But being completely on one side of the argument doesn’t always translate into a negative or unhealthy thing to do. If one side of the argument makes much more sense than the other, then of course I’ll choose that side and not sit on the fence.
To me, the possibility of the existence of god is definitely not as likely as the non-existence god. I am not agnostic about leprechauns, Bigfoot, unicorns or the flying spaghetti monster and I don’t see the reason why we should then be agnostic about god. But of course all this is my opinion and just wanted to see what the opposing arguments were from the perspective of a progressive bohra. It is not that I have thrown away the baby with the bath water but as Dan Barker would say.. “I threw out all the bathwater, and discovered there was no baby there!”
To accountability –
Saying that atheism is basically just another religion is a very gross & fundamental mistake. It is like saying there is no difference between day and night. Here is the difference – In most religions, one believes in something supernatural that cannot be proven. However, atheism does not stand for believing that there is no god. It is defined as the absence of belief in the existence of deities. Thus, as an atheist I Do Not believe (absence of belief) there is a god, which is significantly different than saying “I believe there is no god”. It’s not just another “belief” system but it is the absence of belief and consequently not even remotely similar to a religion. Hope the difference is clear.
To Hamsafar & Al Zulfiqar -
As for the site, I didn’t realize that the movement was mainly of a social reform and not in ideas or thought process also…and for that I apologize. I’ve no interest in changing everyone here to an atheist. My goal was to just speak my mind and try to understand how one can say that following Aqa Moula blindly without question is a form of brainwashing and irrational behaviour but if you replace Aqa Moula with Mohammad along with the Quran, then suddenly everything changes. And now it is okay to follow blindly without question. I know that the debate on existence of god has been going on for centuries. But being completely on one side of the argument doesn’t always translate into a negative or unhealthy thing to do. If one side of the argument makes much more sense than the other, then of course I’ll choose that side and not sit on the fence.
To me, the possibility of the existence of god is definitely not as likely as the non-existence god. I am not agnostic about leprechauns, Bigfoot, unicorns or the flying spaghetti monster and I don’t see the reason why we should then be agnostic about god. But of course all this is my opinion and just wanted to see what the opposing arguments were from the perspective of a progressive bohra. It is not that I have thrown away the baby with the bath water but as Dan Barker would say.. “I threw out all the bathwater, and discovered there was no baby there!”
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
Mustansir,
That is actually not accurate. The existence of God has been proven by many over thousands of years. People either believe in the proof or they do not. If you demand proof that satisifes you queries in your own personal way, then you will have to die to find out the truth. You believe who your parents are because they told you so. Did you ask them for proof? For me, the human being is proof of God, the sun, and the moon is proof of God. The proof that you are looking for, you will get only after you die. But by then it will already be too late.one believes in something supernatural that cannot be proven.
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
Mustansir,
Before you can deny God you must define God. The possibility of existence or non-existence of God is a non-issue. Theism, atheism are just concepts - products of idle intellect. I hope you are not agnostic about the possibility of your own existence. You exist, don't you? What makes your existence possible? What is that animates you? That is the question - and the only question worth investigating. The rest is so much distraction.
Also, as I mentioned earlier, the notion that atheism is an intellectually superior stance vis a vis religion is a fallacy, and reeks of arrogance. Actually the secular idea of "progress" - that history has purpose - is rooted in religion. A hangover from the medieval millenarian tradition. There's much we owe to the age of Enlightenment, at the same time it has much to answer for.
Before you can deny God you must define God. The possibility of existence or non-existence of God is a non-issue. Theism, atheism are just concepts - products of idle intellect. I hope you are not agnostic about the possibility of your own existence. You exist, don't you? What makes your existence possible? What is that animates you? That is the question - and the only question worth investigating. The rest is so much distraction.
Also, as I mentioned earlier, the notion that atheism is an intellectually superior stance vis a vis religion is a fallacy, and reeks of arrogance. Actually the secular idea of "progress" - that history has purpose - is rooted in religion. A hangover from the medieval millenarian tradition. There's much we owe to the age of Enlightenment, at the same time it has much to answer for.
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
More than 90% of the times, the cause of the suffering of the innocents is humans themselves. If God were to prevent humans from being humans then what is the point in creating humans? For other times, the only way to show the good side of a human is during hard times and during injustices and during pain. If there was no suffering, how would we ever get a chance to see who is a good human. Also, if every one on earth were exactly the same, say for eg. with the same amount of money, would the world function? It would come to a complete standstill. It is actually surprising, that great scholars haven't been able to figure this out. If you read Plato's account of Socrates' discussions, you will see how he proves that inequality amongst humans is what makes the world function and makes it a better place to live rather than not.their doubts, their difficulty in accepting a benevolent god who would allow so much injustice and pain in this world and let innocents suffer,
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
"If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to, Then He is Impotent. If He is able, but not willing, Then He is malevolent. If He is both able and willing, Then whence cometh evil? If He is neither able nor willing, Then why call Him God?" - Epicurus
To anajami -
So you are saying that it’s acceptable and even justifiable that young children (many who are just a few months old) are dying needlessly on daily basis either by starvation, excruciating terminal cancers, or some other horrific disease…and this all needs to happen, and the above heaven did watch it with total indifference because the score will be later settled and is necessary for other people to appreciate food and good health? Are you saying that I must watch a child die in front of me out of starvation and only then I will realize the joy of having a good meal? That I need somebody somewhere going through a very excruciating and slow death by a terminal disease so I can appreciate my good health? You can love and worship such a celestial being if you like, I definitely don't..
To anajami -
So you are saying that it’s acceptable and even justifiable that young children (many who are just a few months old) are dying needlessly on daily basis either by starvation, excruciating terminal cancers, or some other horrific disease…and this all needs to happen, and the above heaven did watch it with total indifference because the score will be later settled and is necessary for other people to appreciate food and good health? Are you saying that I must watch a child die in front of me out of starvation and only then I will realize the joy of having a good meal? That I need somebody somewhere going through a very excruciating and slow death by a terminal disease so I can appreciate my good health? You can love and worship such a celestial being if you like, I definitely don't..
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
Am I really saying that? I am saying that if you watch a child die of starvation in front of you, then you are the one who is impotent and not God.Are you saying that I must watch a child die in front of me out of starvation and only then I will realize the joy of having a good meal?
The problem with you is that you do not believe in life after death, so the death of a child with cancer obviously causes more pain to you. For me, I believe that the child is now in a better place where he cannot suffer anymore from cancer.
Not necessarily. I appreciate my good health even when I see someone suffering from a cold. Besides, belief in God gives the one suffering excruciatingly and dying slowly by a terminal disease, hope, which someone like you cannot give that person. That is the reason why a person close to death prefers to see a person of faith and not a disbeliever.That I need somebody somewhere going through a very excruciating and slow death by a terminal disease so I can appreciate my good health?
It doesn't matter if you love and worship God or not. Just because now you don't love him anymore, the pain caused by cancer isn't going to miraculously go away. The only thing that you won't have anymore is hope.
Consider this analogy, I have a difficult exam to go to, I talk to my teacher to give me the answers. The teacher refuses. So I say"If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to, Then He is Impotent. If He is able, but not willing, Then He is malevolent. If He is both able and willing, Then whence cometh evil? If He is neither able nor willing, Then why call Him God?" - Epicurus
If my teacher is willing to give me the answers but unable to, then he is impotent. If he is able but not willing, then he is malevolent. If he is both able and willing, then why do I have to take the exam? If he is neither able nor willing, then why is he my teacher? Sounds kind of stupid doesn't it? Epicurus doesn't sound too smart to me.
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Fatwa Banker
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- Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:01 am
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
If God cannot prevent humans from being humans then what is the point of believing in God and how is he better than a human ? If one believes that death leads you to "a better place" then that person should commit suicide. Otherwise they are merely a lost soul killing time, and people. Why go through the rituals of prayers, reading the Quran, and following Hadiths when a bullet to the head leads to a better place ?If God were to prevent humans from being humans then what is the point in creating humans?
A person close to death prefers to see a doctor, and he can give a rats ass if he is a believer or not.that is the reason why a person close to death prefers to see a person of faith and not a disbeliever.
Arrogance requires that anyone who disbelieves a fairy tale must first define it before they can deny it, especially if it’s a “non issue” and even if there is an "absence of belief".
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
Wow! So you are saying that who cares a child dies a torturous death, at least he/she is going to heaven after it. And I guess according to you, even the 6 million Jews who were systematically exterminated in the Holocaust, women and children including went straight up to the heaven from the gas chambers and mass graves. So did the people who lost their lives in the Rwanda genocide, Nanking massacre, tsunami and all the tragedies that have happened yet, natural or man-made. So it wasn’t that bad after all right? since all of them indeed did get to go to heaven. All is well at the end. So what’s the point of intervening if you get to go to your version of heaven sooner right? I am sure you are almost jumping on your feet to go to your paradise as soon as you can right? Yeah most likely not. It is very easy to disregard these atrocities when it’s not happening onto you or the people you know.The problem with you is that you do not believe in life after death, so the death of a child with cancer obviously causes more pain to you. For me, I believe that the child is now in a better place where he cannot suffer anymore from cancer.
And how do you know that all these victims from the past did go straight to heaven after their painful and unnecessary death? Do you have some special knowledge directly from god which no one else has on this planet? Are you secretly talking to god when no one else is listening? A lot of people talk to their god almost on daily basis. There is nothing new in that. It is when your god talks back to you that there is something unique in there. You have absolutely no way of knowing anything about what happens after death. On what basis you claim to know all this?…based on some ancient “holy” book or teachings of some self-proclaimed prophet? How do you know they were right?...if you are going to say credulously that “I know that my book is The correct one because it says that clearly in that same book”…please do not bother replying.
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
Mustansir,
There is nothing more that I have to say to you.
fart,
Ever heard of suicide bombers???
There is nothing more that I have to say to you.
fart,
If one believes that death leads you to "a better place" then that person should commit suicide.
Ever heard of suicide bombers???
Last edited by anajmi on Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Fatwa Banker
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Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
Yeah, but you ain't dead yet.
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
Well, I have decided to commit suicide by old age. 
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Fatwa Banker
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- Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:01 am
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
Then I wish you a person of faith
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
That one flew straight over my head. Time to go to sleep.
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like_minded
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- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:01 am
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
I think when you subscribe to a religion, you substitute nebulous group-think for focused independent thought, Instead of learning to discern truth on your own, you're told what to believe, This doesn't accelerate your spiritual growth on the contrary it puts the brakes on your continued conscious development, that's why religion is the off-switch of the human mind. If you have the awareness level of a snail, and your thinking is mired in shame and guilt, then subscribing to a religion can help you climb to a higher level of awareness, Your mindset however still remains dysfunctional, you've merely swapped one form of erroneous thinking for another. Leave the mythology behind, and learn to think for yourself. Your intellect is a better instrument of spiritual growth than any religious teachings.
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like_minded
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- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:01 am
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
I am not saying religion doesn't have its uses. Personally I turn to it whenever I want my intelligence insulted.
There are, ofcourse, many sins one can commit in the eyes of religion. Among the greatest is the sin of having an original thought. Religion disapproves of original thought the way Dracula disapproves of Sunlight!
There are, ofcourse, many sins one can commit in the eyes of religion. Among the greatest is the sin of having an original thought. Religion disapproves of original thought the way Dracula disapproves of Sunlight!
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ozmujaheed
- Posts: 889
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Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
Mustansir,...I was driven to Athiesm by illogical Bohta theology..but thanks to Shia Ithnasheri and Wahabi literature I could find a lot of logical beliefs that Islam preaches. I cannot summarise 2 years of deep studies but let me try to heaveliy summarise and if you are intellectual you will follow
To start with do you belive in the 4 universal forces which controls , creates and all matter in the universe.....read about it ..it is scientific and measurable...
Next excluding fatimid mythology try looking up very detailed description of Allah, it is quite different from how Christians have tried to explain their God, or gods in terms of hindus or Bohras stating misleading statements as Arsh ni Kursi, Up in the heaven...
Do you see any correlation ?
Thirdly religion is a representation of law and order which all civilisations created in one form or another...Athiests also live within laws created by man and government. Do we need to be grateful to the creator ...it is part of human behaviour and not being grateful can lead to many evils, pollution, canibalism, chaos. Look around the animal kingdom respect and order is instinct or taught be near life and death misses....we will carry one later if you are happy to chat more.
To start with do you belive in the 4 universal forces which controls , creates and all matter in the universe.....read about it ..it is scientific and measurable...
Next excluding fatimid mythology try looking up very detailed description of Allah, it is quite different from how Christians have tried to explain their God, or gods in terms of hindus or Bohras stating misleading statements as Arsh ni Kursi, Up in the heaven...
Do you see any correlation ?
Thirdly religion is a representation of law and order which all civilisations created in one form or another...Athiests also live within laws created by man and government. Do we need to be grateful to the creator ...it is part of human behaviour and not being grateful can lead to many evils, pollution, canibalism, chaos. Look around the animal kingdom respect and order is instinct or taught be near life and death misses....we will carry one later if you are happy to chat more.
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
Ozmujaheed,
I have a good idea of what the universal forces you are talking about but my knowledge is weak on how Islam is presented in the Wahabi literature. So I will take out some time and look into this subject before continuing this conversation. I will be more than happy to discuss this further with you. Thanks for your insights.
I have a good idea of what the universal forces you are talking about but my knowledge is weak on how Islam is presented in the Wahabi literature. So I will take out some time and look into this subject before continuing this conversation. I will be more than happy to discuss this further with you. Thanks for your insights.
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
Mustansir
Regarding your comments about visiting hospital and seeing children dying, you may find the following article interesting.
Lately AMA and other notable doctors have come to conclusion that providing religious services to terminally ill makes them more comfortable.Some of the hospitals and medical college are including providing religious healing to the sick. It is a faith and there has to be a divine power for these learned doctors and institution to allow these practices in their hospitals
http://www.muw.edu/nursing/tupelo/Spirituality.html
Regarding your comments about visiting hospital and seeing children dying, you may find the following article interesting.
Lately AMA and other notable doctors have come to conclusion that providing religious services to terminally ill makes them more comfortable.Some of the hospitals and medical college are including providing religious healing to the sick. It is a faith and there has to be a divine power for these learned doctors and institution to allow these practices in their hospitals
http://www.muw.edu/nursing/tupelo/Spirituality.html
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
Omabharti,
I did find the article interesting, and I have read a few more of similar ones before. There are definitely a lot of hospitals all over the world who do provide religious and spiritual services to their patients, especially if they are suffering from some kind of terminal illness. One good example where such techniques are regularly used would be the hospitals run by the Salvation Army in North America, especially the ones for long-term care. In such hospitals, the spiritual or religious services are provided by a Minister or a Chaplain either on one on one basis or have weekly Chapel services for patients of Christian denomination and sermons for other major faiths too. I have seen this first hand. And I do agree with the conclusion reached by AMA and the other notable doctors you mentioned. If a patient is religious or spiritual, then providing them with such specific services will definitely give them a lot of Comfort and solace…but it is not going to treat the sickness or the disease. In some cases, there might be a little improvement in their health. However, this is the end limit of such services and it can achieve no more.
You may be familiar with a medical phenomenon called the Placebo effect, in which the intervention used has absolutely no physiological direct effect on the patient by itself but there might be a slight positive improvement, only because of the patient’s personal bias for that intervention and knowing that the intervention is taking place – positive thinking. This is exactly what you see in studies similar to the one above. I am not denying the comfort value religious or spiritual services have but for health care professionals to pass on the responsibility from themselves to some divine creature is grossly irresponsible and that should not happen. It is one thing to say that these services will provide comfort but there is no credibility in the claim that it will actually treat any form of sickness. I am sure we all have heard many anecdotes about self-healing but it is very telling that most of these refer to conditions that can be cured by our innate immune system anyway. Not once you will hear that after a religious service, an amputee suddenly grew his lost limb. Why is that? If a person is treated successfully then many times a believer may give most of the credit to some celestial creature instead of the medical team taking care of the patient. However, if the treatment fails, then does anybody blame god for it? Most likely they will blame themselves for not praying too hard. To be in such a situation is indeed very difficult physically and emotionally. But according to me, hard truth is better than false hope to see the reality as clearly as possible in order to take effective steps to change it.
I am sure a lot of well educated doctors and other professionals do support and even believe in such services but that doesn’t make such interventions any more credible. For that, one would need concrete evidence. If an ill patient wants such a service, a hospital may provide it just to make the patient feel better in a psychological sense. But for health professionals to use religious and spiritual services and claiming it does much more without providing conclusive evidence is I think unethical and a disservice to their profession. If a person is diagnosed with a form of cancer, would you pray for that person and tell him that it is going to heal by itself or would you take him to an oncologist? I think we all will hopefully choose the latter option almost immediately.
I did find the article interesting, and I have read a few more of similar ones before. There are definitely a lot of hospitals all over the world who do provide religious and spiritual services to their patients, especially if they are suffering from some kind of terminal illness. One good example where such techniques are regularly used would be the hospitals run by the Salvation Army in North America, especially the ones for long-term care. In such hospitals, the spiritual or religious services are provided by a Minister or a Chaplain either on one on one basis or have weekly Chapel services for patients of Christian denomination and sermons for other major faiths too. I have seen this first hand. And I do agree with the conclusion reached by AMA and the other notable doctors you mentioned. If a patient is religious or spiritual, then providing them with such specific services will definitely give them a lot of Comfort and solace…but it is not going to treat the sickness or the disease. In some cases, there might be a little improvement in their health. However, this is the end limit of such services and it can achieve no more.
You may be familiar with a medical phenomenon called the Placebo effect, in which the intervention used has absolutely no physiological direct effect on the patient by itself but there might be a slight positive improvement, only because of the patient’s personal bias for that intervention and knowing that the intervention is taking place – positive thinking. This is exactly what you see in studies similar to the one above. I am not denying the comfort value religious or spiritual services have but for health care professionals to pass on the responsibility from themselves to some divine creature is grossly irresponsible and that should not happen. It is one thing to say that these services will provide comfort but there is no credibility in the claim that it will actually treat any form of sickness. I am sure we all have heard many anecdotes about self-healing but it is very telling that most of these refer to conditions that can be cured by our innate immune system anyway. Not once you will hear that after a religious service, an amputee suddenly grew his lost limb. Why is that? If a person is treated successfully then many times a believer may give most of the credit to some celestial creature instead of the medical team taking care of the patient. However, if the treatment fails, then does anybody blame god for it? Most likely they will blame themselves for not praying too hard. To be in such a situation is indeed very difficult physically and emotionally. But according to me, hard truth is better than false hope to see the reality as clearly as possible in order to take effective steps to change it.
I am sure a lot of well educated doctors and other professionals do support and even believe in such services but that doesn’t make such interventions any more credible. For that, one would need concrete evidence. If an ill patient wants such a service, a hospital may provide it just to make the patient feel better in a psychological sense. But for health professionals to use religious and spiritual services and claiming it does much more without providing conclusive evidence is I think unethical and a disservice to their profession. If a person is diagnosed with a form of cancer, would you pray for that person and tell him that it is going to heal by itself or would you take him to an oncologist? I think we all will hopefully choose the latter option almost immediately.
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
Mustansir
Yes I am aware of Placebo effect but here the medical establishments did not and DONOT talk about divine intervention alone but make it an inclusive with other therapy the patient is receiving. This is exactly a reversal specially in USA where majority of health care professional did not believe in healing power of prayers but studies after studies in recent years have made them change their mind and they do believe that believing in some supreme being to heal gives them a very positive attitude towards life. In my work in hospitals, I have seen some positive results of people having faith in supreme being to fight and come out of the life threatening situation and have enjoyed the life. BUT ONLY PRAYERS OR BELIEF ALONE DOES NOT WORK IT IS A COMBINATION OF MEDICAL THERAPY AND POWER OF BELIEF
I am not here to preach and convert you but I do respect your views and try to give other side. I will post Barber's story and 3 questions about existence of God if you have not already read or heard about it.
Yes I am aware of Placebo effect but here the medical establishments did not and DONOT talk about divine intervention alone but make it an inclusive with other therapy the patient is receiving. This is exactly a reversal specially in USA where majority of health care professional did not believe in healing power of prayers but studies after studies in recent years have made them change their mind and they do believe that believing in some supreme being to heal gives them a very positive attitude towards life. In my work in hospitals, I have seen some positive results of people having faith in supreme being to fight and come out of the life threatening situation and have enjoyed the life. BUT ONLY PRAYERS OR BELIEF ALONE DOES NOT WORK IT IS A COMBINATION OF MEDICAL THERAPY AND POWER OF BELIEF
I am not here to preach and convert you but I do respect your views and try to give other side. I will post Barber's story and 3 questions about existence of God if you have not already read or heard about it.
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
Omabharti,
I respect your views too and I am indeed looking for opposing arguments which do question my world view because only by this discourse we can come closer to the truth, so thank you for your time. I know that the article you mentioned was not referring to the benefits of the divine interventions alone. The results were obtained in conjunction with medical treatment but what I was trying to show is that on its own, divine interventions have yet not shown anything more than a placebo effect in any clinical study done on the subject. Current medical treatments on its own however have shown their efficacy with conclusive evidence in clinical trials. There have been studies done where both interventions were used…but the group that received religious services were further divided into two more groups…the first group knew that religious prayers were being done for them but the second group didn’t. The results did show a little improvement in the first group compared to the control group (where no religious services were offered). However, there was no significant difference found in the second group where religious services were performed but the participants were not aware of it.
From my point of view, the only thing such combined intervention studies show is that when specific religious services are offered to patients with corresponding faith, they can develop a more positive attitude & constructive frame of mind, causing less stress and a healthier immune system. But it doesn’t mean by any stretch what a patient believes is true. When we look at a few medical cases where religious services did aid in the treatment, we have to also look at the misses, meaning when the final outcome was not so favourable. Even if we assume that there is some divine intervention in such cases, why is it that it works only in some cases? And why would such divine intervention need any medical support then? It is easy to see a pattern when one focuses only on the hits and forgets the misses. It is somewhat similar when there is plane crash and if all the hundreds of passengers on board are killed except a baby, the media automatically jumps to the headline – “Miracle – Baby survives in a devastating plane crash”. If you see in a more complete realistic way, the headline should actually read “Shocking – God kills 385 people in a plane crash, only saves one!” Since we both are looking at the same study from different angles & come to complete different conclusions, I guess for now we will simply have to agree to disagree…
I respect your views too and I am indeed looking for opposing arguments which do question my world view because only by this discourse we can come closer to the truth, so thank you for your time. I know that the article you mentioned was not referring to the benefits of the divine interventions alone. The results were obtained in conjunction with medical treatment but what I was trying to show is that on its own, divine interventions have yet not shown anything more than a placebo effect in any clinical study done on the subject. Current medical treatments on its own however have shown their efficacy with conclusive evidence in clinical trials. There have been studies done where both interventions were used…but the group that received religious services were further divided into two more groups…the first group knew that religious prayers were being done for them but the second group didn’t. The results did show a little improvement in the first group compared to the control group (where no religious services were offered). However, there was no significant difference found in the second group where religious services were performed but the participants were not aware of it.
From my point of view, the only thing such combined intervention studies show is that when specific religious services are offered to patients with corresponding faith, they can develop a more positive attitude & constructive frame of mind, causing less stress and a healthier immune system. But it doesn’t mean by any stretch what a patient believes is true. When we look at a few medical cases where religious services did aid in the treatment, we have to also look at the misses, meaning when the final outcome was not so favourable. Even if we assume that there is some divine intervention in such cases, why is it that it works only in some cases? And why would such divine intervention need any medical support then? It is easy to see a pattern when one focuses only on the hits and forgets the misses. It is somewhat similar when there is plane crash and if all the hundreds of passengers on board are killed except a baby, the media automatically jumps to the headline – “Miracle – Baby survives in a devastating plane crash”. If you see in a more complete realistic way, the headline should actually read “Shocking – God kills 385 people in a plane crash, only saves one!” Since we both are looking at the same study from different angles & come to complete different conclusions, I guess for now we will simply have to agree to disagree…
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Fatwa Banker
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Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
AMA has also discovered that granting last wishes to the terminally ill such as meeting their favorite athletes or visiting Disneyland makes them more comfortable. It is irresponsible to conclude that such activities infer a divine power any more or less than religious services.omabharti wrote:Lately AMA and other notable doctors have come to conclusion that providing religious services to terminally ill makes them more comfortable.Some of the hospitals and medical college are including providing religious healing to the sick. It is a faith and there has to be a divine power for these learned doctors and institution to allow these practices in their hospitals
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
In the US, there are over 50000 flights landing daily. In 2006 God helped more than 550 million people reach their destinations alive without crashing. The chances of anyone dying in a plane crash are miniscule. God has helped increase the odds of survival in a flight by thousands. And when a crash does happen, it has been shown, without exception, that there was some human error involved. Now the media doesn't report every flight that lands and takes off. Only the one that crashes. So survival in the flight that crashed is a miracle and accurately reported by the media.“Miracle – Baby survives in a devastating plane crash”. If you see in a more complete realistic way, the headline should actually read “Shocking – God kills 385 people in a plane crash, only saves one!”
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
Every crash and every death (well not every) teaches humans to better their lives. For eg. the laws against DUI came into existence because some drunk driver crashed and killed someone. Mustansir would've blamed God instead!!
Re: OPEN LETTER TO PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRAS
It's funny that people should affirm and deny, support and condemn an entity they have no idea about and can't even begin to understand. They don't know what they are talking about and yet are talking their heads off. The level debate is school boyish at best, and childish at worst.