And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the eart

[profastian]

And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the earth, they say, 'we are but reformats'.(Surah Number 2: Al-Baqarah, Verse: 11)

Just browsing through Quranic translation and got this

[anajmi]

Just like the Syedna, his abdes do not shy away from lying and manipulating the words of the Quran.

This is what 02:11 actually says

002.011
YUSUFALI: When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"
PICKTHAL: And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only.
SHAKIR: And when it is said to them, Do not make mischief in the land, they say: We are but peace-makers.

[rania]

Anajmi who are you to call others ' liars ' ?

http://islamawakened.org/quran/2/11/default.htm

Various Translations by different authors on the above mentioned website.Doesn't make any one of them a ' liar ' but a simple explanation is that they interpret it differently.

[rania]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/9730693/Surah ... ranslation


Another Website which uses the word ' reformat '.Doesn't make them a ' liar ' but that the contributor to the above website has interpreted it differently.

[incredible]

yes thats true different translation may have different words but the meaning is same.

in short quraan curses reformists. so do i

[anajmi]

If you look at profastian's post, he says this

And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the earth, they say, 'we are but reformats'.

What are reformats? We are reformists and not reformats. Hence you lie ( )

Anyway, the Quran is referring to people who claim to be peaceful but are not and are responsible for spreading mischief on earth. Syedna and his abdes fit the bill. Consider their history of violence against the reformists and then consider their own corruption and looting from their own abdes. Lying under oath comes naturally to the Syedna. Claiming to be the God on earth etc etc. The list is pretty long.

[rania]

If you look at profastian's post, he says this

And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the earth, they say, 'we are but reformats'.

What are reformats? We are reformists and not reformats. Hence you lie

Anyway, the Quran is referring to people who claim to be peaceful but are not and are responsible for spreading mischief on earth. Syedna and his abdes fit the bill. Consider their history of violence against the reformists and then consider their own corruption and looting from their own abdes. Lying under oath comes naturally to the Syedna. Claiming to be the God on earth etc etc. The list is pretty long.

Where did Profastian even mention ' Reformists ' in the opening post of this thread ?

He posted the exact quote which some authors have interpreted it.Are you going to apologize to him for the false accusations that he lied ?

' Violence ' you say ? I take it you are as vocal regarding the history of violence with the Prophet against Non Muslims.

Lying under oath ? Surely you are lying about it. I call you upon your lies. Come clean on it.

Claiming to be ' God on Earth ' ? Another lie by you.Repeating myself , I call you upon it.You were there at the time of Asghar Ali Engineer debates and you have seen it all on this very forum.Do you really want me to bump up the threads for you ? I assure you it wouldn't be a pleasant experience for you.

[bohri]

Where did Profastian even mention ' Reformists ' in the opening post of this thread ?

He posted the exact quote which some authors have interpreted it.Are you going to apologize to him for the false accusations that he lied ?

' Violence ' you say ? I take it you are as vocal regarding the history of violence with the Prophet against Non Muslims.

Lying under oath ? Surely you are lying about it. I call you upon your lies. Come clean on it.

Claiming to be ' God on Earth ' ? Another lie by you.Repeating myself , I call you upon it.You were there at the time of Asghar Ali Engineer debates and you have seen it all on this very forum.Do you really want me to bump up the threads for you ? I assure you it wouldn't be a pleasant experience for you.

How the slaves come out of their slumber in defence of their master! march on zombies, march on ......

[accountability]

This same ayah was discussed before too on this forum. The symbol you put after ayah's translation if taken litterally amounts to utter disrespect of quran. The other pro administration contributer has done the same thing. It seems that you guys are bent upon distorting, twisting bending and fabricating whatever suits your purpose. In your heart you knew what you are posting and making out of that ayah is not correct, but just to hoodwink you thought it neccesary to follow goebles. 2:11refers to kuffars who were disguising themselves as believers but in their heart they had doubts.

if you want to know about reformists religion below link will help you.
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/news/75/52/No ... di-Bohras/
Noone here is trying to reform the religion, we all believe in dawoodi tayebbi mustaali fatmid doctorine. and we dont have any problem with it. we believe in Dai, and seat of Dai. No body disputes the authenticity of Syedna saheb as Dai. you have also accepted that amils and jamat is corrupt, what is wrong in voicing against these corrupt individuals. what is wrong in reforming the way jamat machinery is run as we all know that it is so constituted to safe gaurd the intrest of syedna saheb's immediate and extended family. How would this fall in the ambit of ayah 2:11. Actually it is vice versa.
In nahaj ul balagha Ali has catergorically declared war against corruption, may it be material or in belief. Syedna qadi noman in daimul islam talks about corruption and equates it to massacre of belief. I hope you will revisit your above post, it is noble and brave to admit mistakes.

[anajmi]

accty,

we all believe in dawoodi tayebbi mustaali fatmid doctorine. and we dont have any problem with it. we believe in Dai, and seat of Dai. No body disputes the authenticity of Syedna saheb as Dai.

Actually, I do not. I dispute the authenticity of this Syedna and this seat of Dai. Every muslim who spreads the word of Allah is a representative of Allah on earth. No one person has a monopoly on it. There are just degrees of how good a representative you are and the Syedna doesn't fall anywhere on the scale. And you don't either because you reject the Quran as the word of the supreme being. Until people are being true to themselves about what they are, they will be lied to by others.

[accountability]

You are not dawoodi bohra anymore. You dont have to believe in syedna, you are right about everyone being the representative of allah.
I have never said that, you cannot show one post. But I do have my own interpretation, and i think i am very much entitled to it.

[anajmi]

accty,

As I said before, unless we are men enough to accept the truth about ourselves, unless we are men enough not to lie to ourselves, we will always be ruled and subjugated by others. And no, you are not entitled to your own interpretation as your interpretation has been shown to be faulty many times. If you still insist on your following your own interpretation, then the Syedna has every right to follow his own interpretation. Who are you to tell him what is right and what is not?

[rania]

accty,

And no, you are not entitled to your own interpretation

Bigot Alert !

Wonder when will Anajmi launch a crusade against the Jews , Catholics , Atheists of the world and tell them they are not entitled their own interpretations of God , Religion and so on !

[rania]

This same ayah was discussed before too on this forum. The symbol you put after ayah's translation if taken litterally amounts to utter disrespect of quran. The other pro administration contributer has done the same thing. It seems that you guys are bent upon distorting, twisting bending and fabricating whatever suits your purpose. In your heart you knew what you are posting and making out of that ayah is not correct, but just to hoodwink you thought it neccesary to follow goebles. 2:11refers to kuffars who were disguising themselves as believers but in their heart they had doubts.

if you want to know about reformists religion below link will help you.
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/news/75/52/No ... di-Bohras/
Noone here is trying to reform the religion, we all believe in dawoodi tayebbi mustaali fatmid doctorine. and we dont have any problem with it. we believe in Dai, and seat of Dai. No body disputes the authenticity of Syedna saheb as Dai. you have also accepted that amils and jamat is corrupt, what is wrong in voicing against these corrupt individuals. what is wrong in reforming the way jamat machinery is run as we all know that it is so constituted to safe gaurd the intrest of syedna saheb's immediate and extended family. How would this fall in the ambit of ayah 2:11. Actually it is vice versa.
In nahaj ul balagha Ali has catergorically declared war against corruption, may it be material or in belief. Syedna qadi noman in daimul islam talks about corruption and equates it to massacre of belief. I hope you will revisit your above post, it is noble and brave to admit mistakes.

Anajmi beat me to it !

I have said on another thread , I hardly see ' Progressive Dawoodi Bohras ' on this forum. Majority of the self proclaimed progressive bohras here freely abuse Syedna , Mock Imam in Seclusion , mock the Matam , make fun of every action of the Bohras !

Most of them here are not even Bohras , just ' bigots ' from other sects who want to antagonize and inflame the situation even more !

We have the likes of Anajmi who say Ismali women are not even true muslims and then claim themselves to be ' Reformists ' . It is a joke really. You can laugh .

[rania]

Every muslim who spreads the word of Allah is a representative of Allah on earth.

The Prophet spread the word of Allah.You talking about him in the same breath as other Muslims ?

If every Muslim is a representative of Allah ( Representative being the key word here ) then what makes Prophet so special amongst the Muslims ?

You could argue that he brought Islam to the followers and for this reason he is special. So what does that makes the Caliphs after him then ?

And then you have a nerve to say the interpretation of others are ' faulty ' and they are not entitled to it !

[guy_sam2005]

Just like the Syedna, his abdes do not shy away from lying and manipulating the words of the Quran.

This is what 02:11 actually says

002.011
YUSUFALI: When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"
PICKTHAL: And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only.
SHAKIR: And when it is said to them, Do not make mischief in the land, they say: We are but peace-makers.

even ur version of explanation means..mischief in name of peace........

[profastian]

If you look at profastian's post, he says this
What are reformats? We are reformists and not reformats. Hence you lie

Anyway, the Quran is referring to people who claim to be peaceful but are not and are responsible for spreading mischief on earth. Syedna and his abdes fit the bill. Consider their history of violence against the reformists and then consider their own corruption and looting from their own abdes. Lying under oath comes naturally to the Syedna. Claiming to be the God on earth etc etc. The list is pretty long.

Where did Profastian even mention ' Reformists ' in the opening post of this thread ?

He posted the exact quote which some authors have interpreted it.Are you going to apologize to him for the false accusations that he lied ?

A classical case of guilty conscious

[S. Insaf]

No reformist till dates has brought any disgrace to the community. No Reformist was made to publicly apologize for creating trouble on Allah’s land and riots that resulted in the deaths of several innocent persons and loss of property.

No reformist has brought disgrace to the community by violating exchange control laws, illegally transferring thousands of Shs. and being expelled from a country within 24 hours.

No Reformist has hit the newspaper head lines as “Imam of Smuggling”, “Holy Terror”, “Chronicle of Cruelty”, “A Law Unto Himself”, “Bohra Head- Darkness at Noon, “Government within Government” “Bohra Mulla’s Goonda Raj”, “Divine Terror” etc.

Decide who is apt for the title "And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the eart"!

Now talking of the social change. Change is always painful, especially in the Dawoodi Bohra Community.
Because it is community of traders who are more concern for their comfort and family life.
Because it is close-knit confined to the four walls of the community.
Because it is a unique community dominated by religious hierarchy which claims to be the sole-interpreter of its faith and traditions.
Because it is an inward-looking community.

Now taking about Reform. The reform is essential in any society as we want it or not, today every society is drastically under-going change due to changing world orders, shrinking universe, politics, blurring economic boundaries. But the vested interests in the Dawoodi Bohra Community, while taking most advantages of modern advancements for selves, are trying to promote the “Master and Slave” mentality of primitive ages in the community.

Change and Reform: The holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh) himself was a great Reformer of his time. In fact every prophet was a reformer of his time. When came to age the Prophet of Islam found an extremely disturbing situation in Mecca, the birth place of Islam. The most powerful and unshakable vested interests had developed in the then Meccan society while the majority supressed. A situation similar to that is prevailing in our Dawoodi Bohra Community today. Qur’an was revealed on the Prophet (pbuh) which condemns those who hoard wealth, silver and gold and do not spend the same among the poor and needy in the way of Allah. Quran warns: “Woe unto every slandering traducer, who has hoarded wealth and counts it, He thinks that his wealth will render him immortal. Nay, verily he will be flung to the Consuming One. Ah, what will convey unto these what the Consuming One! (It is) fire of Allah, kindled, which leaps up over the hearts (of men).” Qur’an thus gave a concept of Zakat and Baitul-Mall for just distribution of wealth among the weaker sections of the society. A vast majority was suffering under exploitation while wealth of the society was concentrated in few hands. Therefore he proposed an alternative social set-up which was just and non-exploitative and opposed to concentration of wealth in few hands.

Initially the Prophet (pbuh) and his handful followers were in minority pitted against the powerful arrogant establishment of Meccan rich. The tiny bands of Muslims could hardly wage an armed struggle against the Kuffars (disbelievers) and they were severely prosecuted and the Kuffar had declared “Baraat” (social Boycott against them to pressurize them to stop challenging their authority. Islam encourages continuous struggle against the powerful (mastakbirun) by the weak (mustad’fin) in the society. Thus the Prophet of Islam (pbuh) goes to the extent of saying that “The best of Jihad is of him who speak a just word before a tyrannical authority”. In Qur’an Zulm (oppression) is condemned in the strongest possible terms. Yet the darbari ulema generally have interpreted the Qur’an saying that “Believes, obey Allah and the Apostle and those in authority among you”, that the believers are required to obey the authority (Ruler, Imam, Dai) even if he is tyrant and wrongdoer. These ulema have overlooked the Qur’an’s actual spirit which exhorts the people to be just and rule justly:
“If you judge, judge between them with equity. Lo! Allah loves the equitable.” Thus Allah makes it clear that his vicegerency is not for unjust and tyrants Rulers, Imam, Dai:-
“And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He sais: Lo I have appointed thee a leader for the mankind. (Abraham) said: And my offspring (will there be leaders from them), He said: My connant includes not the wrongdoers (zalims).” 14
Who are believers (Mumineen) and who are non-believers (Kuffars)? Bohras are made to understand those who consider Syedna as Dai are Mumineen and those who oppose him are Kuffars or Munafiqs. This belief is contrary to Quranic injunctions. The Quran says, “And We sent not unto any township a warner, but its affluent ones declared: Lo! We are disbelievers in that which you bring to us.” 13 and warns these wealthy one “It is not your wealth nor your children that will bring to you near Us, but he who believes and does good (he draws near). 14
Thus it is very clearly indicated in the Quran that the real unbelievers (Kuffar) are those who accumulate riches and perpetuate injustice in the society.

The small group of the Prophet migrated to Ethiopia and Medina. Then the holy Prophet head to fight several wars with his opponents that must have disturbed the so-called “peace” in the then unjust society.

In Medina there were Jews, Pegan Arabs, and Muslim immigrants. The Prophet created a political community in Medina by drawing up an agreement, (a Constitution or Sahifah of Medina) with different warring groups. This “Sahifah” was in fact a revolutionary document for Arabs as it allowed the people of Medina to follow their individual religion and retain their properties. Thus the Sahifah laid down the foundation of the first a community in Medina in which different tribes, people of different religions and other groups were equal partners in the decision making. This contract was rooted in the Arab traditions but remained democratic both in spirit and practice. It reflected the political genius of its author, the Prophet. It was beginning of a cautious and tactful reform.
This is how a Reform movement starts.

[profastian]

No Reformist has hit the newspaper head lines as “Imam of Smuggling”, “Holy Terror”, “Chronicle of Cruelty”, “A Law Unto Himself”, “Bohra Head- Darkness at Noon, “Government within Government” “Bohra Mulla’s Goonda Raj”, “Divine Terror” etc.

Can you give me the newspapers on which these headlines appears. Must be some progressive controlled rag.

[guy_sam2005]

No Reformist has hit the newspaper head lines as “Imam of Smuggling”, “Holy Terror”, “Chronicle of Cruelty”, “A Law Unto Himself”, “Bohra Head- Darkness at Noon, “Government within Government” “Bohra Mulla’s Goonda Raj”, “Divine Terror” etc.

Can you give me the newspapers on which these headlines appears. Must be some progressive controlled rag.

it appears in many papers like
insaf chronicle,times of zuzfikar,najmi today etc..........

[S. Insaf]

You may confirm from the followings:
Bohra Leader Expelled for illegal transfer of Shs. 65000 - Staff Reporter - 15 August 1968 - The Nationlist - Nairobi
Mullaji's Goonda Raj - by Staff Reporter - Jaipur - 24 Nov. 1974- Partpakhs (Hindi)
Darkness at Noon - by Deril D'Mento - 22 April 1979 - Free Press Journal Bombay
Chronicle of Cruelty - by Staff Reporter - 16-31 May 1979 - Today - Bombay/Delhi
The Holy Terror - by Rajni Bakshi - 21-27 August 1983 SUNDAY -Calcutta
A Law Unto Himself - by Ivan Fera - 13-19 November 1983 - Illustrated Weekly of India - Bombay
The Holy Terror Strikes Again - by Nikhil Lakshaman - 12 April 1984 - Illustrated Weekly of India - Bombay
Mllaji's Hawala Connection - Vijaya Venniyoor - 6 Sept. 22 Oct 1984 - Bombay Magazine - Bombay
Dawood Baugh Land Sale Fraud - Staff Reporter - 14 April 1985 - Clarity - Bombay
The Aurocratic Mulla - Burhanuddin - by Staff Reporter 22 Aug. 6 Sept. 1986 Bombay Magazine - Bombay

Scaning these and putting on boad can be done if you are not satisfied.

[incredible]

You may confirm from the followings:
Bohra Leader Expelled for illegal transfer of Shs. 65000 - Staff Reporter - 15 August 1968 - The Nationlist - Nairobi
Mullaji's Goonda Raj - by Staff Reporter - Jaipur - 24 Nov. 1974- Partpakhs (Hindi)
Darkness at Noon - by Deril D'Mento - 22 April 1979 - Free Press Journal Bombay
Chronicle of Cruelty - by Staff Reporter - 16-31 May 1979 - Today - Bombay/Delhi
The Holy Terror - by Rajni Bakshi - 21-27 August 1983 SUNDAY -Calcutta
A Law Unto Himself - by Ivan Fera - 13-19 November 1983 - Illustrated Weekly of India - Bombay
The Holy Terror Strikes Again - by Nikhil Lakshaman - 12 April 1984 - Illustrated Weekly of India - Bombay
Mllaji's Hawala Connection - Vijaya Venniyoor - 6 Sept. 22 Oct 1984 - Bombay Magazine - Bombay
Dawood Baugh Land Sale Fraud - Staff Reporter - 14 April 1985 - Clarity - Bombay
The Aurocratic Mulla - Burhanuddin - by Staff Reporter 22 Aug. 6 Sept. 1986 Bombay Magazine - Bombay

Scaning these and putting on boad can be done if you are not satisfied.

not a single news paper or magazine is known to any one.must be some cheap journalist articles who wrote some crap for pinch of money.no one cares such news papers they are more used to pack paw bhaji and pani puri lolllllll

[profastian]

You may confirm from the followings:
Bohra Leader Expelled for illegal transfer of Shs. 65000 - Staff Reporter - 15 August 1968 - The Nationlist - Nairobi
Mullaji's Goonda Raj - by Staff Reporter - Jaipur - 24 Nov. 1974- Partpakhs (Hindi)
Darkness at Noon - by Deril D'Mento - 22 April 1979 - Free Press Journal Bombay
Chronicle of Cruelty - by Staff Reporter - 16-31 May 1979 - Today - Bombay/Delhi
The Holy Terror - by Rajni Bakshi - 21-27 August 1983 SUNDAY -Calcutta
A Law Unto Himself - by Ivan Fera - 13-19 November 1983 - Illustrated Weekly of India - Bombay
The Holy Terror Strikes Again - by Nikhil Lakshaman - 12 April 1984 - Illustrated Weekly of India - Bombay
Mllaji's Hawala Connection - Vijaya Venniyoor - 6 Sept. 22 Oct 1984 - Bombay Magazine - Bombay
Dawood Baugh Land Sale Fraud - Staff Reporter - 14 April 1985 - Clarity - Bombay
The Aurocratic Mulla - Burhanuddin - by Staff Reporter 22 Aug. 6 Sept. 1986 Bombay Magazine - Bombay

Scaning these and putting on boad can be done if you are not satisfied.

Sure please put the scanned clippings on forum

[guy_sam2005]

You may confirm from the followings:
Bohra Leader Expelled for illegal transfer of Shs. 65000 - Staff Reporter - 15 August 1968 - The Nationlist - Nairobi
Mullaji's Goonda Raj - by Staff Reporter - Jaipur - 24 Nov. 1974- Partpakhs (Hindi)
Darkness at Noon - by Deril D'Mento - 22 April 1979 - Free Press Journal Bombay
Chronicle of Cruelty - by Staff Reporter - 16-31 May 1979 - Today - Bombay/Delhi
The Holy Terror - by Rajni Bakshi - 21-27 August 1983 SUNDAY -Calcutta
A Law Unto Himself - by Ivan Fera - 13-19 November 1983 - Illustrated Weekly of India - Bombay
The Holy Terror Strikes Again - by Nikhil Lakshaman - 12 April 1984 - Illustrated Weekly of India - Bombay
Mllaji's Hawala Connection - Vijaya Venniyoor - 6 Sept. 22 Oct 1984 - Bombay Magazine - Bombay
Dawood Baugh Land Sale Fraud - Staff Reporter - 14 April 1985 - Clarity - Bombay
The Aurocratic Mulla - Burhanuddin - by Staff Reporter 22 Aug. 6 Sept. 1986 Bombay Magazine - Bombay

Scaning these and putting on boad can be done if you are not satisfied.

many bad things were written and said even for prophet..................

[anajmi]

incredible,

If you do not know any of these newspapers then you just confirmed that you are a dumb abde.

[anajmi]

many bad things were written and said even for prophet..................

And many bad things are written and said about the Shaitan as well.

[incredible]

many bad things were written and said even for prophet..................

And many bad things are written and said about the Shaitan as well.

dumb head what kind of stupid comparison is that?

[anajmi]

incredible,

Just because bad things are written about someone doesn't mean that they are not bad. Bad things are written about Shaitan because he is bad. Bad things are written about Saddam because he was bad. Bad things are written about Hitler because he was bad. Bad things are written about Sauron because he is bad. Similarly bad things are written about the Syedna because he is bad.

[S. Insaf]

many bad things were written and said even for prophet..................

Syedna Saheb's establishment launched a world-wide propaganda against Mr. Shashi Bhushan blaming him that he called Syedna "Shaitaan".

But with all these exposure in the media and by two inquiry commissions why there is no reaction from Syedna's side? With all excellent material and legal resources at his command why he has not legally challenged them?
The world-wide agitations and voilent attacks were organised to stop the commissions from functioning but once their reports were made public and media reacted on it for months, there was compelet silence from Syedna Saheb's side. Why?
I know the answer so no need to answer - but do think over it.

[S. Insaf]

If any one of you have real love for Syedna Saheb and the community's prestige you still have time to challenge them. Please do it.