End these Tamashas and the corruption thereof

[S. Insaf]

Now-a-days highly expensive tamashas on the grand scale have become very common in the Dawoodi Bohra Community. Whether it is the happy occasion of Syedna Saheb's birthday or solemn month of Moharram, or normal visit of Syedna Saheb to any town, or his going from Mumbai or coming back to Mumbai, Bohras in large number are called for a sort of family picnic. While publicizing the event in the media there is hardly any mention of Allah or Quran in the month of Ramadan or of great sacrifices of martyrs of Karbala in the month of Moharram or the founder of Jamiyah Saifiyah - Surat, Syedna Abde Ali Saifuddin Saheb on the event of Zikra or welfare concerns of suffering Bohras in his normal visits. Each and every occasion is fully utilized to glorify Sayedna Burhanuddin Saheb.
Question is why does a religious and spiritual person need publicity on such a grand scale and that too so often? Especially if he is a head of a microscopic sect?
Moharram is fast approaching and therefore it is important to dowel on this question.
But before we do that let me reproduce the report that appeared in the TIMES OF INDIA dated 7th Oct. 2010 exposing a shocking story of huge Fund Raising that came to limelight for Mrs. Sonia Gandhi's 'Sadhbhavana' rally at Sewagram in Wardha district. The MPCC president Manikrao Thakre was caught on tape telling a colleague, Satish Chaturvedi, how he had mobilized funds worth Crores of rupees for the success of that grand rally. The party had mobilized Rs 10 lakh from each of the Maharashtra cabinet members. Mr. Thakre disclosed that the Chief Minister Chavan himself paid Rs 2 crore for hiring 2,000 state transport corporation buses to ferry crowds to the rally. More shockingly, the recording showed, the money had to be passed on 'up there' in New Delhi (apparently to party bosses).
After the exposure in media both Chavan and Thakre made an attempt to cover up, saying the issue had been blown out of proportion. CM, Chavan said it was normal practice to mobilize funds from party workers for organizing such big rallies. There is a proper account for this fund.
The opposition parties did not make much hue and cry on such a serious issue because they also organize big scale publicity Tamashs spending crores of rupees in order to win election or remain in power.
Now coming back to grand scale Tamashas in our Dawoodi Bohra Community:
Crores of rupees are spend on Araz to Syedna.
Crores of rupees or millions of dollars are spend on government officials to some how bring them to welcome Syedna Saheb on his arrivals.
25 to 50 thousand Bohras are brought to the far away places and crores are spent on their travel, accommodation and food etc.
Last year for Moharram Vaiz at Marol, Mumbai 38 crores were spent just on erecting a huge decorative shamiana.
Crores are spent on world-over relay transmission, photography and videography.
Crores of rupees are spent on 'Ikram' function of Syedna Saheb at the airport, Takrim, Taqqi, Vadhavni, Najwa, Kadambosi, Salaam for vaiz, Ziyafats, Tasees or Iftitah etc.
After Ashra crores are spent on International Band Competition, Rasm-e-Saifee, Shikar Tafreeh etc.
Lastly crores of rupees are spent on wide press coverage of the event putting up several pages advertisements with coloured photographs of Syedna meeting various political dignitaries. Same material is repeated again and again.
How can so much extravagancy in a microscopic community, where majority is under poverty line and hand to mouth, be justified?
More important question is what is the source of such gigantic collections each time? Why are Amils and Shahzadas so exited and enthusiastic in organizing such events again and again?
The Chief Minister of Maharashtra, Mr. Ashok Chavan said it was normal practice to mobilize funds from party workers for organizing such big rallies. There is a proper account for this fund.
But in the Dawoodi Bohra Community there is no concept of accountability, which is so central in Islam. According to the faith, Syedna Saheb is accountable to Imam only and Imam is not likely to come soon.
It goes without saying that all such Tamashas are organized on unaccounted money which is the major source of corruption.
Such outrageous revelries were unheard in the peaceful and sober Bohra Community. Why were they started? Let's examine it.
Late Syedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb's powers became more outrageous especially in 1962 after getting exemption from "Prevention of Ex-communication Act' as there was no reformist to challenge him then. Realising this failure after three years, in 1965 the Madhyasta Pragati Mandal was formed by late Mr. Noman Contractor and his reformist associates. Syedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb for the first time had to face an organized opposition. I remember he organized "Ali Day" function on very large scale in Bombay. He then organized another huge gathering to celebrate his Golden Jubilee and announced that he is going to build "Golden Jubilee Saifee Technological Institute, greatest in whole of Asia in Bombay. He died in the same year and Burhanuddin Saheb assumed the office in 1965. His younger brother and political advertiser, Yusuf Najmuddin took charge of the affairs of Dawat in his name. Yusuf Najmuddin was ruthless and cruel.
In June 1966 Mulla Abbas Aurangabadi was burnt alive in Karachi in day light by goons of Yusuf Najmuddin. Sympathy for Pragati Mandal reached to the Bohras of Pakistan.
In 1967 Yusuf Najmuddin in the name of Syedna Burhanuddin Saheb forcefully imposed an authoritarian constitution on the East Africa Jamats. A large number of Bohras from East Africa Jamats joined the reformist movement.
In 1968 Syedna Saheb was unceremoniously expelled from Tanzania as he was caught transferring Shs. 65,000 illegally.
In 1972 Syedna Saheb tried to crush down the democratic aspirations of the Bohras of Udaipur which was resented by the majority.
In 1973 when innocent young and old Bohra women were attacked in front of Syedna Saheb and the resentment turned in mass rebellion in Udaipur. In the same year four senior ustads of Jamiya Saifia Surat were thoroughly beaten and one Shaikh Sajjad Husain was killed by the goons of Yusuf Najmuddin. Syedna Saheb spread a terror wave all over the world and unheard atrocities were committed on innocent Bohras.
In 1977 the series of atrocities resulted in the appointment of Justice Nathwani Commission of Inquiry. Syedna Saheb on one hand, organized violent protests against the Commission and on the other hand spread further terror in the community to stop Bohras to appear before the Commission.
In 1980 the Inquiry Commission made its report public. Syedna Saheb who employed all the force and all the political influence at his command to stop the Inquiry commission for functioning could not challenged its most shocking and damaging report. There was an all out condemnation of atrocities committed in the name Syedna his style of functioning.
In the same year 1980, in order to rebuild Syedna Saheb's tarnished image Yusuf Najmuddin for the first time in the Dawoodi Bohra history organised a big Tamasha of show of strength in Egypt in the name of Syedna Saheb's Moharram vaiz in Cairo. For the first time in the Dawoodi Bohra history local vaiz were banned and the Amils were asked to bring as much Bohra to Cairo as possible. A false propaganda was made that Imamuz-Zaman is going to appear in Egypt and it will be big 'Sharaf' to be with your Daiz-Zaman.
After the success of that Tamasha in Cairo, every occasion was turned in to big Tamasha and every act related to Syedna Saheb a 'Sharaf'.
Both the President of Egypt, Anwar Sadat and Yusuf Najmuddin later met with tragic death in Egypt and no one remembers them.
After the historical mass-marriages in Udaipur, central body of reformist, the Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra Community was formed and the reformist Jamats at various places all over the world were registered as "Dawoodi Bohra Jamat", whereas orthodox Bohra Jamats were registered as Anjuman.
The reformed movement now was gaining tremendous momentum with their regular seminars, world conferences and regular write up in the media.
Syedna Saheb was left with no choice but to make his big Tamashas a regular feature.
These often organized Tamashas and the unaccounted money generated thereof have corrupted the Shahzadas. It has corrupted the Amils. So much so that today the corruption has deepened to the level of Jamat Committees and Tanzeem Committees, Burhani women associations etc. Today the entire system of Dawat from top to bottom is stinking in corruption.
It is high time we put a stop to these Tamashas. Let's make a beginning from coming Moharram in the name of our so dear and revered Imam Husain.

[porus]

Excellent reporting brother S. Insaf, and an entirely justified outrage to go along with it!

To pecuniary corruption we must add the corruption of the Bohra soul which does not even recognize the depth of shamelessness to which it has descended.

In all this, what has been lost is the ghairat of ordinary Bohra. To lack ghairatmandi and yet be proud of it is the lot of Bohras. Astounding state of affairs!

[ultofanatic]

Has anyone noticed - there are no postings from abdes for sometime now. In fact there is no opposition of any kind. There is an undisturbed atmosphere on the forum. Where have they all gone?

[Smart]

^
Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
The light of the truth shines forever bright.
How much can the abdes curse? Sooner or later they are tired, then they run away to their dark caves, where the light does not reach.

Kudos to Bro. S. Insaf, for consistently and persistently, putting up facts and figures.

[Al Zulfiqar]

To pecuniary corruption we must add the corruption of the Bohra soul which does not even recognize the depth of shamelessness to which it has descended.

in my opinion, bohras are perhaps the most racist and hypocritical of all human beings. they indulge in systematic hatred of all other muslims, whilst other religions are too disgusting for them even beyond mention. this is regularly drummed into the bohra psyche right from childhood. while they practise this racism discreetly, in public they rush to show solidarity with the other muslims of all hues and colors. one can argue that there are many sects or religions who do the same, eg. the jews, or brahmins etc. but the bohras are taught to cheat and lie too, their religious leadership is setting them a fine example. "jaisa raja, waisi praja". there is only one criteria in our community on which a bohra is judged. MONEY. you have that, u lavish it on the kothari goons, and u can buy titles of shaikh, mkd, nkd, etc. u can hobnob with the pup zaadas, u get frequent audiences with the supreme leader, yr lack of character and integrity is overlooked. u get to be sitting and praying in the front rows, and u become one of the mafia.

where only some 7 decades ago, bohras were admired for their integrity, morality and simplicity, even the gujratis, jains and other business communities looked up to us, our word was considered a promise and the british JP's relied on our fair and neutral opinions to pass judgement, today we are no better or different from any other merchant community.

in only one generation, our leadership has caused our moral downfall and taken us backwards by several decades. where we were looked upon as modern, liberal, sensible voices of reason and moderation, well-adjusted, thoughtful and wise; we now project an image of rigid, orthodox, hardcore fanatic muslims, we stick out as sore thumbs, we are restricted from achieving full integration into the larger soceity, we have become narrow minded, bigoted and intolerant of others. we have become slavish, meek, and fearful. except for a few bohras who have excelled, the rest are content to remain frogs in the well, content to draw relief and succour by blending into the comfort of their 'likes'. a little pond, where we frolic as if we have the run of the ocean.

an entire community reduced to being mere pawns in the hands of the chanakyas of saifee mahal..

[Aarif]

And you guys still believe that one day reformists will be able to establish accountability and remove corruption without removing the Dai. You are trying to reform the epitome of corruption. Expecting accountability from our clergy is like expecting Hitler to fall in love with the jews or expecting a lion to stop hunting deer and start eating grass...

[porus]

dekh tere Burhan kii haalat kyaa ho ga_ii mumin
kitanaa badal gayaa Burhan
kitanaa badal gayaa Burhan) \-2

bhuukho.n ke ghar me.n pheraa na Daale
seTho.n kaa ho mehamaan
kitanaa badal gayaa Burhan\-2

unhii.n kii puujaa Burhan ko pyaarii
jinake ghar lakshmii kii sawaarii
jinakaa dhandhaa chor bazaarii
hamako de.n bhuukh aur bekaarii inako de waradaan
kitanaa badal gayaa Burhan\-2

dekh tere Burhan kii haalat kyaa ho ga_ii mumin
kitanaa badal gayaa Burhan


With apologies to Sahir Ludhianwi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONhVXPh_kvQ&NR=1

[Humsafar]

And you guys still believe that one day reformists will be able to establish accountability and remove corruption without removing the Dai. You are trying to reform the epitome of corruption. Expecting accountability from our clergy is like expecting Hitler to fall in love with the jews or expecting a lion to stop hunting deer and start eating grass...

Aarif, I'm not sure what you mean by removing the Dai. You've to understand that the reformist agenda operates within the Dawoodi Bohra doctrine which includes the Dawat and the Dai. Removing the Dai - the individual or the office - is not a part of the agenda. It is true that both the dai and his administration are corrupt. The question is, is it possible to end the corruption without removing the Dai? The point is moot, and we can debate it endlessly, but that is not option for the reform movement. The movement believes that corruption can be eliminated if enough Bohras demand change. When people stop co-operating the dai and the kothar cannot have their way. Will such a thing come to pass? History tells us that no corrupt leaders and empires do not last forever. The human urge for justice and freedom is innate - it cannot be suppressed for long. So yes, it will come to pass, but when no one can say. As for your proposal of removing the Dai, it's doomed from the start for I don't think any bohra will take a shine to it.

As for your analogies about Hitler and the lion, yes it is possible to reform Hitler because evil is not intrinsic to man's nature. The worst of men when they see the Light have transformed themselves completely. As for the lion, eating grass in not in its nature. It is not designed to eat grass. Corruption is not intrinsic to the Dai - maybe it is deeply embeded into the system but it is not impossible to refrom him or his administration.

Your another tack, which you keep bringing up now and again, about Bohra doctrine being not in accord with the Quran is valid only from the sunni or Wahabi point of view. This has been discussed many times before (and my dear friend anajmi would love to jump into the fray if it started again) but so long as we are talking about the reform movement it would be prudent not to bring in larger doctrinal issues into the discussion.

[Muslim First]

Bohra doctrine being not in accord with the Quran is valid only from the sunni or Wahabi point of view.

Br Humsafar

AS

Care to discuss in this thread?

The Quran Challange
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=5444

Shiasm in Quran
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=5472

[Aarif]

Aarif, I'm not sure what you mean by removing the Dai.

Encouraging bohras in the light of Quran that the post of Dai is not required at all. And please do not tell me that this is a wahabi point of view. Even the shias have no concept of dai.

You've to understand that the reformist agenda operates within the Dawoodi Bohra doctrine which includes the Dawat and the Dai.

As long as the post will remain corruption is inevitable. Do you think the Dai or his successors will have any interest left in running the daily mundane affairs of dawat if the money part is removed? My point is remove corruption and the Dai will automatically disappear like the Imam. So even in that case most probably bohras will be left without a Dai.

Removing the Dai - the individual or the office - is not a part of the agenda.

And that is the basic problem. The Dai is only interested in making money. He is here to run the business of dawat. If you will observe closely the corruption is only increasing by each passing day. The point is that reformists do not want a corrupt Dai and the Dai is not interested in leading an austere life of a Dai. Are you getting the drift?

The movement believes that corruption can be eliminated if enough Bohras demand change.

The "if" in your statement should have been in caps and bold.

When people stop co-operating the dai and the kothar cannot have their way. Will such a thing come to pass? History tells us that no corrupt leaders and empires do not last forever.

This is not an empire. This is a religious organization. The Dai is considered a representative of Allah on earth. As long as Allah will remain the Dai will remain. Now please do not tell me that this is unislamic. Because if you will say so I will call you a wahabi for calling the practices of Dai unislamic in the light of Quran... Now you see the reformists are trapped. They do not want to go by Quran because Quran is only for the sunnis and wahabis. And this is excatly the way abdes think. And in that case there is not much difference between the abdes and reformists..

The human urge for justice and freedom is innate - it cannot be suppressed for long. So yes, it will come to pass, but when no one can say.

The abdes do not think that their Dai is doing any injustice to them. Most of them believe that he has every right to do whatever he is doing.

As for your analogies about Hitler and the lion, yes it is possible to reform Hitler because evil is not intrinsic to man's nature. The worst of men when they see the Light have transformed themselves completely.

The odds of this transformation are very low atleast in this case...

[anajmi]

Your another tack, which you keep bringing up now and again, about Bohra doctrine being not in accord with the Quran is valid only from the sunni or Wahabi point of view.

And to prove his point, Humsafar is now going to show us the validity of the bohra doctrine from the Quran.

[anajmi]

The problem with the reform movement, as I have pointed out many times before and will probably be doing it many more times, is that it is not trying to reform the bohra religion. The bohra religion that both the orthos and the reformists believe in, has nothing to do with Islam. Infact, Humsafar will agree that he doesn't even consider the Quran a book of divine origin. So to ask the reformists to reform bohras as per the Quran would be a moot point.

The smart thing that the Dai has done is that he has created a moving baseline. What does that mean? The Quran, apart from a few ayahs interpreted differently, delivers a very consistent message. So the Dai has labelled himself as Quran-e-natiq. Hence the entire Quran now changes as per the whims and fancies of the Dai. And since the reformists are not against the Dai, as Humsafar keeps reminding us, they have no baseline to use against the practices of the Dai.

The bottom line is that even within reformists, there are probably those who can't wait to go back and start kissing the Dai's feet and thighs. Humsafar might just be one of those.

[Al Zulfiqar]

The smart thing that the Dai has done is that he has created a moving baseline. What does that mean? The Quran, apart from a few ayahs interpreted differently, delivers a very consistent message. So the Dai has labelled himself as Quran-e-natiq. Hence the entire Quran now changes as per the whims and fancies of the Dai.

anajmi, interesting point .... never thought of it like that. smart conclusion.

[Global]

I view the DB comunity as a social club You pay your yearly membership fee and you can take advantage of various facilites like jaman, going on ziayrats etc. Reforming the Abdes seems to be an herculean task. Have you gone to DB masjid recently. Look around. DB have become zombies and now with their dadhis sayas and topis they all look the same. They will play with their mobile phones when the waiz aur majlis is going on and suddenly when "YA Husain " is heard they will start beating the chest and after few minutes return to playing games on their mobile phone. And nobody seems complaining. Seems to me reformist have got a huge task on their hands.

[profastian]

And you guys still believe that one day reformists will be able to establish accountability and remove corruption without removing the Dai. You are trying to reform the epitome of corruption. Expecting accountability from our clergy is like expecting Hitler to fall in love with the jews or expecting a lion to stop hunting deer and start eating grass...

Aarif, I'm not sure what you mean by removing the Dai. You've to understand that the reformist agenda operates within the Dawoodi Bohra doctrine which includes the Dawat and the Dai. Removing the Dai - the individual or the office - is not a part of the agenda. It is true that both the dai and his administration are corrupt. The question is, is it possible to end the corruption without removing the Dai? The point is moot, and we can debate it endlessly, but that is not option for the reform movement. The movement believes that corruption can be eliminated if enough Bohras demand change. When people stop co-operating the dai and the kothar cannot have their way. Will such a thing come to pass? History tells us that no corrupt leaders and empires do not last forever. The human urge for justice and freedom is innate - it cannot be suppressed for long. So yes, it will come to pass, but when no one can say. As for your proposal of removing the Dai, it's doomed from the start for I don't think any bohra will take a shine to it.

As for your analogies about Hitler and the lion, yes it is possible to reform Hitler because evil is not intrinsic to man's nature. The worst of men when they see the Light have transformed themselves completely. As for the lion, eating grass in not in its nature. It is not designed to eat grass. Corruption is not intrinsic to the Dai - maybe it is deeply embeded into the system but it is not impossible to refrom him or his administration.

Your another tack, which you keep bringing up now and again, about Bohra doctrine being not in accord with the Quran is valid only from the sunni or Wahabi point of view. This has been discussed many times before (and my dear friend anajmi would love to jump into the fray if it started again) but so long as we are talking about the reform movement it would be prudent not to bring in larger doctrinal issues into the discussion.

You are one big dumb ass. You believe that the DAI is corrupt and then you also want to "operate within the Dawoodi Bohra doctrine which includes the Dawat and the Dai". Basically what you are saying is dont ask us for wajebaat and any money, besides that everything is ok.

[Humsafar]

Br Humsafar

AS

Care to discuss in this thread?

The Quran Challange
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=5444

Shiasm in Quran
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=5472

Muslim First, this has been discussed umpteen times and and I've nothing new to say on the matter. Thank you.

[Humsafar]

Aarif, when dawoodi bohras are under discussion the Dai and Dawat are a given. If you do no accept this framework, that is fine but please understand that then you're NOT talking about Dawoodi Bohras. When speaking about the light of the Quran - it is not a single white light, it actually throws a whole spectrum of hues through the prism of history. There is no shiaism either in the light of the Quran (as interpreted by the wahabis) so would you want shias also to get rid of the imams? The corruption is not because of the Dai - there have been 50 dais before the last two - and there was no corruption of the level as seen in recent times. Corrupt individuals have corrupted the institution. You insist on throwing out the individuals and the institutions, but then we are not talking about the same thing. I perfectly understand where you are coming from, but your proposal is to change the fundamental character and doctrinal basis of Bohras. If that is achieved then "dawoodi bohras" as an entity would cease to exist and would merge into the larger shia or muslim identity. Of course that would be a good thing from the standpoint of the "light of the Quran" - but then there is no end to changing things from that standpoint. Is there?

[Humsafar]

And to prove his point, Humsafar is now going to show us the validity of the bohra doctrine from the Quran.

No anajmi, I'm not going to do that. For a crude mind and an unevolved consciousness the only way to understand the Quran (or any scripture for that matter) is to take it literally - word for word. Understood thus, much that the muslims do today can be invalidated. But the moment you open Quran to interpretation it can have no fixed meaning.

The problem with the reform movement, as I have pointed out many times before and will probably be doing it many more times, is that it is not trying to reform the bohra religion. The bohra religion that both the orthos and the reformists believe in, has nothing to do with Islam. Infact, Humsafar will agree that he doesn't even consider the Quran a book of divine origin. So to ask the reformists to reform bohras as per the Quran would be a moot point.

Absolutely correct, and this is what most people fail to understand. Whether the Bohras are strictly Islamic (barring recent Dais' excesses) or not is not under discussion and not part of the reform agenda.

The smart thing that the Dai has done is that he has created a moving baseline. What does that mean? The Quran, apart from a few ayahs interpreted differently, delivers a very consistent message. So the Dai has labelled himself as Quran-e-natiq. Hence the entire Quran now changes as per the whims and fancies of the Dai. And since the reformists are not against the Dai, as Humsafar keeps reminding us, they have no baseline to use against the practices of the Dai.

This is part of the "religious corruption" the dais have introduced. No it is not true that the reformists have no baseline to use against the dai - daim ul islam and other bohra books clearly set out the guidelines for the dai's position and actions. But bohras are ignorant of them and have been systematically kept ingorant. As porus has mentioned so many times, bohras do not see themselves with reference to the Quran - their point of reference is the dai and dai alone. How it came to be so has been well documented and much discussed.

The bottom line is that even within reformists, there are probably those who can't wait to go back and start kissing the Dai's feet and thighs. Humsafar might just be one of those.

Not just one, but probably the first in the line!!!! Oh how I'm dying to smooch my maula's thighs!!!!

[Humsafar]

You are one big dumb ass. You believe that the DAI is corrupt and then you also want to "operate within the Dawoodi Bohra doctrine which includes the Dawat and the Dai". Basically what you are saying is dont ask us for wajebaat and any money, besides that everything is ok.

Thank you for your kind words. The dai is an individual and can be corrupt. The dai and dawat is an institution which can be made corrupt. When you understand the difference you'll probably stop being an abde. If you've understood anything by coming to this forum then you should by now know that NO it's not just about "wajebbat and money". But obviously you have understood nothing.

BWT, I'm still waiting for the "tangential" interpretation of the sajada to dai. Your fellow-abde "Aqs" has disappeared ever since this question was to him/her!!!!

[Aarif]

Aarif, when dawoodi bohras are under discussion the Dai and Dawat are a given. If you do no accept this framework, that is fine but please understand that then you're NOT talking about Dawoodi Bohras. When speaking about the light of the Quran - it is not a single white light, it actually throws a whole spectrum of hues through the prism of history. There is no shiaism either in the light of the Quran (as interpreted by the wahabis) so would you want shias also to get rid of the imams? The corruption is not because of the Dai - there have been 50 dais before the last two - and there was no corruption of the level as seen in recent times. Corrupt individuals have corrupted the institution. You insist on throwing out the individuals and the institutions, but then we are not talking about the same thing. I perfectly understand where you are coming from, but your proposal is to change the fundamental character and doctrinal basis of Bohras. If that is achieved then "dawoodi bohras" as an entity would cease to exist and would merge into the larger shia or muslim identity. Of course that would be a good thing from the standpoint of the "light of the Quran" - but then there is no end to changing things from that standpoint. Is there?

Humsafar,

I am getting your point. My suggestion stems from the fact that as per dawoodi bohra belief the Imam is in hiding. So I am not much worried about him. The problem is the corrupt Dai. The reformists are trying to expose the practices that they think are corrupt and should be eliminated for the benefit of the community. The abdes do not concur with this. Even on this very thread Profastian is trying his arse out to defend his Moula. So I don't think the reformists will be able to sell this to the hardcore abdes. Now let's consider the Quran aspect. Even today dawoodi bohras as muslims respect Quran. If the reformists will start propogating the fact that the post of Dai from Quranic standpoint is not mandatory and bohras are not going to go to hell if they stop licking his arse, the chances might improve. The chances of believing in the Quran are more than the chances of believing in the reformists. And yes I agree with you that bohras will not buy this immediately. This is going to take time. But then the reformists have already spent so much time trying out other things. Why not give this a shot as well? We should start by sending mass emails stating the unislamic practices carried out by the Dai whose post is not even defined in Quran. I feel that bohras are worried about their afterlife assuming that the Dai is the one who will take them to heaven. This is pure BS and we need to emphasize on this. Maybe this will ring the bell. Based on my personal experience mainstream bohras perception of reformists is that the reformists are only interested in knowing how the money is spent by the Dai. I have heard typical bohras saying "Aa Muddai apna Dai paase paisaa no hisab mange che". Honestly this democracy and accountability idea is not selling. Its high time we switch gears and try something new.

[Humsafar]

Aarif,
Agreed, let's expose the Dai in the light of the Quran, human rights or any other yardstick we can find (and this forum and the reform movement are doing just that ), but the moment you talk about eliminating the Dai you're moving the discussion outside the dawoodi bohra framework. Bohras need not be told that Dai is not mandatory according to the quran, they know it. For them the legitimacy of the dai is rooted Ismaili doctrine and tradition.And that for them is as sacred as the quran.

Of course, the abdes don't concur - and we know the reasons why.

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

No anajmi, I'm not going to do that.

It was a rhetorical statement. Of course you are not going to do that.

For a crude mind and an unevolved consciousness the only way to understand the Quran (or any scripture for that matter) is to take it literally - word for word. Understood thus, much that the muslims do today can be invalidated.

Am I surprised that you've just delivered the number 1 kothari talking point without even batting an eyelid? It seems like your consciousness is just as evolved as any other kothari expert of the Quran.

daim ul islam and other bohra books clearly set out the guidelines for the dai's position and actions.

Can you give me the chapter where this is covered in daim ul islam?

Now consider the contradictions in your statement.

You are referring to Daim ul Islam to bring reform. What is Daim ul Islam? Pillars of Islam. Isn't that correct? Pillars of ISLAM

And then you say what? -

Whether the Bohras are strictly Islamic (barring recent Dais' excesses) or not is not under discussion and not part of the reform agenda.

What more can I say about this reform movement?

[anajmi]

I want to make a couple of points about this "literal interpretation" excuse that people use to justify their ignorance about what the Quran says. Ofcourse for those that do not believe in the divinity of the Quran, shouldn't even be talking about the metaphorical interpretations of the Quran because then they are shooting themselves, not in the foot, but straight in the head.

When the Quran says "Bow down before your lord", the literal interpretation is ..well... bow down before your lord. No other explanation is needed. However, if someone wants to create a metaphorical interpretation, then that needs to be accompanied by a lot of explanation. For eg. the Dai's interpretation of "bow down before your lord" probably is bow down before the Imam and when the Imam goes into hiding, bow down before the Dai. Of course he will have to give a lot of explanation as to how he came to that conclusion. Obviously he cannot. That is why there is so much secrecy surrounding him. No one is allowed to ask him questions regarding the Quran. Most people with evolved consciousnesses, who talk about these metaphorical interpretations, will run as soon as you confront them, as we saw with Humsafar.

You will always hear - do not interpret the Quran literally. Ofcourse, you will never hear the non-literal interpretation either. People say this not because they know the real meaning behind the ayah, but simply because they cannot digest the most obvious meaning.

There have been times when Humsafar has insisted on literally interpreting the ayahs of the Quran which talk about killing the infidel. Infact he has attacked me saying that I pick and choose what I want to believe from the Quran. What does that tell you about his evolved consciousness?

[ghulam muhammed]

The corruption is not because of the Dai - there have been 50 dais before the last two - and there was no corruption of the level as seen in recent times.

Bohras today number a little over a million and if the e-jamat records are to be believed then they are a little over half a million so naturally during the era of the previous dais the number would have been a few thousand. Moreover there were hardly any wealthy bohras then as compared to the present times which means that there was hardly any scope for extortion and/or corruption. If the bohra population was as big as today and they were as wealthy then probably the story wouldnt have been any different. One cannot rule out this possibility totally.

[Aarif]

but the moment you talk about eliminating the Dai you're moving the discussion outside the dawoodi bohra framework.

Humsafar,

I would again like to repeat the fact that you cannot eliminate corruption without eliminating the Dai. Hence, your strategy of reforming the Dai so that he gives up corruption is not going to work. And I personally feel that the dawoodi bohras will be much better off without the Dai. Let me ask you this question. The reformists in Udaipur are carrying out their daily affairs without the Dai. Are they not doing a good job? The post of Dai was created by the Imam during the time when it was required. Today there is freedom and democracy almost everywhere in the world to practice whatever faith you want to practice. Today the role of Dai is limited to ziafats, kadam boshi, waez etc. Do you think that a Dai is even required in today's world? And I would still like to stick to my point that as long as we will have a Dai corruption will be inevitable.

[Fatwa Banker]

Aarif,

How is the Dai's position unique in that it cannot exist without corruption ? Are you saying just this Dai or any Dai , and why ? Furthermore, you are still arguing that the Dai's position is unnecessary which can be debated (and true), but this is beyond the scope of the reform movement as Humsafar has stated.

Today there is freedom and democracy almost everywhere in the world to practice whatever faith you want to practice.

How then can you not respect the decision of the Bohra community to practice their belief in the Dai ? Furthermore, the "almost" does not cover mostly Muslim countries.
( You know I can't let you get away with that spin ! )

Do you think that a Dai is even required in today's world?

No, not any more than the Quran or the Bible. These are matters of faith, not necessity.

[anajmi]

This is the very first paragraph in the very first chapter of Daim ul Islam

On Faith (Iman)

Jafar b. Muhammad: Faith consists in professing by the tongue, believing with the heart and acting in accordance with its tenets. This and nothing but this is valid.

A few pages later it says

Faith consists in testifying that there is no deity other than Allah alone, that He is without associate, and Muhammad is his servant and messenger; that Heaven and Hell and Resurrection are verities; that the hour of judgment will surely come.

I just want to point out the hypocrisy of reformists like Humsafar. They want to reform the Dai as per Daim ul Islam but what about their own selves? Do they have Iman? Do they believe in Allah? This is the foundation on which the pillars of Islam stand. Do they believe in Heaven and Hell or Resurrection? These reformists themselves reject faith and then want to reform the Dai to follow Daim ul Islam? If these are the kind of people leading the reform movement, I am glad that it isn't going anywhere!!

Unfortunately for Humsafar, he won't be able to use his "literal interpretation" argument with the Daim ul Islam. Or will he?

[S. Insaf]

The very name "Daimul-Islam" means the "Pillars or founding principles of Islam". It has chapter on Iman, Valayat, Business transactions, Oaths and vows, food, Drinks, Medicines, Dress and perfumes, Hunting, Slaughtering animals, Marriage, Divorce, Wills, Inheritance etc. There is no mention of Misaq or Raza in Daimul Islam. When the book is meant to explain and elaborate the principles of Islam, how can it then differ from Quran and Sunna and be different for Ismailis or Dawoodi Bohras?
The Misaq and Raza are much later additions and recently introduced 'Baraat' is absolutely anti-Islam.

[guy_sam2005]

^
Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
The light of the truth shines forever bright.
How much can the abdes curse? Sooner or later they are tired, then they run away to their dark caves, where the light does not reach.

Kudos to Bro. S. Insaf, for consistently and persistently, putting up facts and figures.

facts and figures,,where are they on this site?
all i see is fiction and fantasies

[guy_sam2005]

The very name "Daimul-Islam" means the "Pillars or founding principles of Islam". It has chapter on Iman, Valayat, Business transactions, Oaths and vows, food, Drinks, Medicines, Dress and perfumes, Hunting, Slaughtering animals, Marriage, Divorce, Wills, Inheritance etc. There is no mention of Misaq or Raza in Daimul Islam. When the book is meant to explain and elaborate the principles of Islam, how can it then differ from Quran and Sunna and be different for Ismailis or Dawoodi Bohras?
The Misaq and Raza are much later additions and recently introduced 'Baraat' is absolutely anti-Islam.

oh..meet Mr.insaaf...the person who will decide wat is islam and wat is anti islam...................
does not givin permission for zarih of moulatena fatema come under islam or anti islam for you....