Dear All
I am starting this thread just to understand the differnces between the 12 ers and Dawoodi Bohra's. I just want people like Br. Ali to understand that there are significant differnces between these two comunities. The few differnces I know are as follows:
a) 12 ers, like other Muslims, beleive in sighting the Crescent for the start of the Hijra months. Bohri have a fixed calender used internationally.
b) 12 ers, have a concept of Jumma Prayer and Khutba. Bohri's have no such concpet. Bohri's pray the normal Zuhr prayers on Friday also.
c) As per the site referred by Ali, 12 ers don't curse the first 3 Caliphs. Bohris consider it a must to curse them in all their "majalis"
I am sure there are other differnces also. Bohri consider the 12 ers to be on the wrong path, an indication of which can be found in the Bohra's clergy continuos warning to its masses not to attend the Shia Majalis.
Regards
12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
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khan19922001
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:01 am
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
Khan,
We take the assumption that Imamat is right.
Bohras seem to have mixed Imamat with Daism. Dai constantly says he is not only Dai but Imam has made him sit on his seat too. He implies that he is more than Dai, say Naib Imam and recently all Qasedahs and Marsias etc call him Naib Imam. If we take Imamat as correctly and its generally accepted meaning, there is no concept if Naib Imam. And why Bohras say this - to give more importance to Dais as there were Dais in the days of Imams too, they were Ambassadors of Imams in various parts of world. Today Dai is de facto Imam so he need a title more than a mere Dai.
12ers may be saying there is Noor-e-Khudha in Imams but Bohras say the same for Dais too. That is again to elevate current Dai.
12ers obviously believe in 12 Imams, Bohras in 21. Everybody conveniently forgets that all Imams had more than one son, so there is bound to be problems and divisions amongst the sons as to who is the heir. This started as early as Musa Kazim.
Bohras have lately started saying 'Maula Nee Dua Chay' in response to 'Kaim cho' or even Salams. I believe 12ers still use the Islamic way of greetings.
Bohras have also started saying 'Maula Nee Naimatoo Nau Shukar Ada Karayay' - meaning thereby the Blessings are from Maula and not from God. You can check that when any Khateeb starts Bayan at any Bohra Majlis.
Bohras claim there is are references to Dais in Quran and that Prophet use to call them 'my brothers' facing India.
There are lot others but I would end by saying -
Bohras have made mockery of Faith, IF there is any faith.
To me, all religions are questionable. All so-called 'divine' things are to be challanged and revisited in the light of ground realities, age and time giving due considertion to human wisdom and development. People like Anajmi stick to 'leteral meaning' and have even argued on that. If Islam is so complete, lets discuss the:
1. Economic System of Islam;
2. Politcal System of Islam;
3. Social System of Islam;
4. Legal System of Islam; and
many more.
There are people who would say there is everything, but where that everything is praticed today? In Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, where on earth? If it is not practiced, then what are the reasons for non-practice? If you say people (ie Muslims) do not want to practice real Islam, then the question remains, what is the use of a system which has been discarded by majority for whatever reasons (right or wrong).
Was-Salam
We take the assumption that Imamat is right.
Bohras seem to have mixed Imamat with Daism. Dai constantly says he is not only Dai but Imam has made him sit on his seat too. He implies that he is more than Dai, say Naib Imam and recently all Qasedahs and Marsias etc call him Naib Imam. If we take Imamat as correctly and its generally accepted meaning, there is no concept if Naib Imam. And why Bohras say this - to give more importance to Dais as there were Dais in the days of Imams too, they were Ambassadors of Imams in various parts of world. Today Dai is de facto Imam so he need a title more than a mere Dai.
12ers may be saying there is Noor-e-Khudha in Imams but Bohras say the same for Dais too. That is again to elevate current Dai.
12ers obviously believe in 12 Imams, Bohras in 21. Everybody conveniently forgets that all Imams had more than one son, so there is bound to be problems and divisions amongst the sons as to who is the heir. This started as early as Musa Kazim.
Bohras have lately started saying 'Maula Nee Dua Chay' in response to 'Kaim cho' or even Salams. I believe 12ers still use the Islamic way of greetings.
Bohras have also started saying 'Maula Nee Naimatoo Nau Shukar Ada Karayay' - meaning thereby the Blessings are from Maula and not from God. You can check that when any Khateeb starts Bayan at any Bohra Majlis.
Bohras claim there is are references to Dais in Quran and that Prophet use to call them 'my brothers' facing India.
There are lot others but I would end by saying -
Bohras have made mockery of Faith, IF there is any faith.
To me, all religions are questionable. All so-called 'divine' things are to be challanged and revisited in the light of ground realities, age and time giving due considertion to human wisdom and development. People like Anajmi stick to 'leteral meaning' and have even argued on that. If Islam is so complete, lets discuss the:
1. Economic System of Islam;
2. Politcal System of Islam;
3. Social System of Islam;
4. Legal System of Islam; and
many more.
There are people who would say there is everything, but where that everything is praticed today? In Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, where on earth? If it is not practiced, then what are the reasons for non-practice? If you say people (ie Muslims) do not want to practice real Islam, then the question remains, what is the use of a system which has been discarded by majority for whatever reasons (right or wrong).
Was-Salam
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serendipity
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:01 am
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
DEAR JC, I have to admit I like your thought BEST on this board (and no, I am NOT gay, I am a woman)! But where you say "Bohras seem to have mixed Imamat with Daism. Dai constantly says he is not only Dai but Imam has made him sit on his seat too. He implies that he is more than Dai, says he is 'Naib Imam', and recently all Qasedahs and Marsias etc call him 'Naib Imam'." IN A WORD, what a CROCK!! There is only "Imam az Zaman", not some confabulated "Naib Imam"!!!
But you REALLY HIT the jackpot JC where you say:
"12ers obviously believe in 12 Imams, Bohras in 21. Everybody conveniently forgets that all Imams had more than one son." YEAH GUYS, what took you SO LONG??? PRESENT Imam doesn't HAVE to be the descendent of long-lost "Tayyib"! Muhammad ibn Ismail (No. 7 Imam for Bohras and SOURCE of all the controversy) had six sons HIMSELF, not to speak of their DESCENDENTS!
Even my LOWLY status has not kept me from being shown who Imam IS, and NO, he is not the direct descendent of the Tayyib Imam. But he has RECEIVED NASS directly through the generations! GO FIGURE, you brilliant male scholars....it's NOT all that difficult. (And by the WAY, as I've tried to gently indicate on this board in the past, it ain't the Dawoodis who understand what's going on! Sorry about your EGO there.)
But you REALLY HIT the jackpot JC where you say:
"12ers obviously believe in 12 Imams, Bohras in 21. Everybody conveniently forgets that all Imams had more than one son." YEAH GUYS, what took you SO LONG??? PRESENT Imam doesn't HAVE to be the descendent of long-lost "Tayyib"! Muhammad ibn Ismail (No. 7 Imam for Bohras and SOURCE of all the controversy) had six sons HIMSELF, not to speak of their DESCENDENTS!
Even my LOWLY status has not kept me from being shown who Imam IS, and NO, he is not the direct descendent of the Tayyib Imam. But he has RECEIVED NASS directly through the generations! GO FIGURE, you brilliant male scholars....it's NOT all that difficult. (And by the WAY, as I've tried to gently indicate on this board in the past, it ain't the Dawoodis who understand what's going on! Sorry about your EGO there.)
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
Serendipity,Originally posted by serendipity:
Even my LOWLY status has not kept me from being shown who Imam IS, and NO, he is not the direct descendent of the Tayyib Imam. But he has RECEIVED NASS directly through the generations! GO FIGURE, you brilliant male scholars....it's NOT all that difficult. (And by the WAY, as I've tried to gently indicate on this board in the past, it ain't the Dawoodis who understand what's going on! Sorry about your EGO there.)
Now I am getting very curious. How was it that you got the privilege of knowing who the Imam is and why is it not possible for you to divulge his identity to the rest of the humanity?
It may be that Your Imam wants to remain hidden and reveal himself only to a few who he will know will keep his id secret. Since you are one of the few, you must not consider yourself of LOWLY status. In fact, that makes you the same level as our Dai, who alone "knows" the identity of the Imam, who, of course may be different from the one you know.
Just to be pedantic, it is quite ok for the Dai to call himself the Naaib of the Imam. Naaib means Deputy. And he is that.
I notice our Dai now has a new title, He has started calling himself (or his followers are calling him) Waliyullah, with capital W. Now I thought that that particular title has been reserved for Ali ibn Abi Talib over trhe centuries! What with several Quranic ayats now known to be directly referring to the current Dai, I suggest Bohras remove Wali from Waliyullah and call the Dai "Allah".
That would not be so far fetched. He is already known as Haqiqi Kaaba and therefore deserving of sajada and tawaaf around him. The day is not far when his photo will be in our jamaatkha.. oops masjids and we will prostrate to that. At least one other community, related to Bohras,, already do that!!
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serendipity
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:01 am
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
Dear Porus,
I AM lowly and I SHOULDN'T sound off AT ALL! Some of those who know me say it's the "FRAILTY of my nature"...but I guess Allah put that passion in my nature for a reason.
Although I come at it from a DIFFERENT ANGLE than you Reformists, it's hard for me to tolerate our exclusive "club" of Bohras headquartered in Mumbai parading their PROSPERITY as the proof of God's Truth (when the only such "proof" is the Imam). And the fact of the matter is it just might cost you some blood (NOT bushels of bohra MONEY) to be close to where he's at!
I've emailed with a NUMBER of sincere people on the board about this. But essentially YOU'RE RIGHT, Porus. There's alot of death-dealing going on in certain parts of the world...as I've CLEARLY INDICATED in previous postings of mine. So although I feel compelled to be a "voice in the wilderness", making my protest here from time to time, I also need to be discreet...You're welcome to email me anytime if you wish.
I AM lowly and I SHOULDN'T sound off AT ALL! Some of those who know me say it's the "FRAILTY of my nature"...but I guess Allah put that passion in my nature for a reason.
Although I come at it from a DIFFERENT ANGLE than you Reformists, it's hard for me to tolerate our exclusive "club" of Bohras headquartered in Mumbai parading their PROSPERITY as the proof of God's Truth (when the only such "proof" is the Imam). And the fact of the matter is it just might cost you some blood (NOT bushels of bohra MONEY) to be close to where he's at!
I've emailed with a NUMBER of sincere people on the board about this. But essentially YOU'RE RIGHT, Porus. There's alot of death-dealing going on in certain parts of the world...as I've CLEARLY INDICATED in previous postings of mine. So although I feel compelled to be a "voice in the wilderness", making my protest here from time to time, I also need to be discreet...You're welcome to email me anytime if you wish.
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
Pourus wrote:
That would not be so far fetched. He is already known as Haqiqi Kaaba and therefore deserving of sajada and tawaaf around him. The day is not far when his photo will be in our jamaatkha.. oops masjids and we will prostrate to that. At least one other community, related to Bohras,, already do that!!
__________________________________________________
In Ismaili Jamat Khanas yes they put pictures of "Hazar Imam" means Karim Aga Khan. It use to be on front wall, so all the sajjad's were done to his picture. Since few years they have changed the placement of pictures, one in man's section on side wall and one in women's section on side wall. Earlier Ismailis use to recite salwat by looking at the picture of Imam - e - zaman.
That would not be so far fetched. He is already known as Haqiqi Kaaba and therefore deserving of sajada and tawaaf around him. The day is not far when his photo will be in our jamaatkha.. oops masjids and we will prostrate to that. At least one other community, related to Bohras,, already do that!!
__________________________________________________
In Ismaili Jamat Khanas yes they put pictures of "Hazar Imam" means Karim Aga Khan. It use to be on front wall, so all the sajjad's were done to his picture. Since few years they have changed the placement of pictures, one in man's section on side wall and one in women's section on side wall. Earlier Ismailis use to recite salwat by looking at the picture of Imam - e - zaman.
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
serendipity,
from your response, i gathered you follow another line of imamate other than the later Fatimi Imams. but since you mention muhammad ibn ismail, i think you are not an ithna ashari or zaydi. the obvious answer is that you are an agha khani ismaili, seeing as you believe in the presence of the imam, and they having the most prominent imam visible.
of course you maybe refer to this meta-physically. you complained of the money club in mumbai, which leads me to believe the imam you reference is not prominent or wealthy, which eliminates the Agha Khan completely. please do enlighten the sluggish masses.
porus,
just for clarification, the term "naib":
Naib a Persian word meaning representative or deputy. An officer who acted in place of another officer or who was employed to perform the duties, either in absence or on behalf of another officer is called a naib. In the later Mughal period, an officer given to act on behalf of an absentee officer was called a naib.
so the dai is the representative of the Imam or naib imam in persian, and this is no new concept.
the term waliyuallah means friend of Allah. awliyallah means friends of Allah. all nabis, rasuls, imams, dais, etc. (ie religious persons of position) are considers awliyallah al'karimin. not a new concept. whether capitalized or not is trivial.
from your response, i gathered you follow another line of imamate other than the later Fatimi Imams. but since you mention muhammad ibn ismail, i think you are not an ithna ashari or zaydi. the obvious answer is that you are an agha khani ismaili, seeing as you believe in the presence of the imam, and they having the most prominent imam visible.
of course you maybe refer to this meta-physically. you complained of the money club in mumbai, which leads me to believe the imam you reference is not prominent or wealthy, which eliminates the Agha Khan completely. please do enlighten the sluggish masses.
porus,
just for clarification, the term "naib":
Naib a Persian word meaning representative or deputy. An officer who acted in place of another officer or who was employed to perform the duties, either in absence or on behalf of another officer is called a naib. In the later Mughal period, an officer given to act on behalf of an absentee officer was called a naib.
so the dai is the representative of the Imam or naib imam in persian, and this is no new concept.
the term waliyuallah means friend of Allah. awliyallah means friends of Allah. all nabis, rasuls, imams, dais, etc. (ie religious persons of position) are considers awliyallah al'karimin. not a new concept. whether capitalized or not is trivial.
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
.[/QB][/QUOTE]
spot,
"Naaib" is the word used in Farsi, Urdu, Lisaane Daawat, among others. But you can verify its origin as an Arabic word in any Arabic Dictionary.
wali=friend? I seriously doubt that. The closest meaning in common parlance since the 6th century Arabia is 'protector'.
It is also used commonly to mean a supporter. Thus a supporter of God, meaning a Muslim who wears his religion on his sleeve.
But the meaning as applied to Amirul Mumineen, Ali ibn Abi Talib is doctrinaire application of the word among the Shia. This is for two reasons:
1. All Arabs during the Prophet's mission on earth were in thhe protection of a tribal elder, who was called a Wali.
2. Wali is applied specifically to Ali in accordance with the interpretation of Ayats 42:6 and 42:9, in which the word Awliya appears. It is claimed by the Shia that the circumstance of the revelation of these Ayats refer to Ali in two senses. One, as a protector of people. This is because some had foresaked leadership of Ali despite being commanded by the Prophet. Second, it is tied to the protection of the Quran. The natiq of the Quran obvoiously is Muhammad, as Quran was spoken first by him. But the natiq and hafiz of Quran were delegated by Muhammad to Ali and no one else.
That is also the reason why other Imams are not called Waliyullah. And that is why I specifically said waliyullah with capital W, is applied only to Ali.
If you insist on calling every Muslim waliyullah than you degrade the title of Ali, a phrase also recited in the Adhaan.
It is arrogance for the Dai to claim the title. In the sense you imply, all Muslims are waliyullah.
You might want to protect the doctrine from corruption.
spot,
"Naaib" is the word used in Farsi, Urdu, Lisaane Daawat, among others. But you can verify its origin as an Arabic word in any Arabic Dictionary.
wali=friend? I seriously doubt that. The closest meaning in common parlance since the 6th century Arabia is 'protector'.
It is also used commonly to mean a supporter. Thus a supporter of God, meaning a Muslim who wears his religion on his sleeve.
But the meaning as applied to Amirul Mumineen, Ali ibn Abi Talib is doctrinaire application of the word among the Shia. This is for two reasons:
1. All Arabs during the Prophet's mission on earth were in thhe protection of a tribal elder, who was called a Wali.
2. Wali is applied specifically to Ali in accordance with the interpretation of Ayats 42:6 and 42:9, in which the word Awliya appears. It is claimed by the Shia that the circumstance of the revelation of these Ayats refer to Ali in two senses. One, as a protector of people. This is because some had foresaked leadership of Ali despite being commanded by the Prophet. Second, it is tied to the protection of the Quran. The natiq of the Quran obvoiously is Muhammad, as Quran was spoken first by him. But the natiq and hafiz of Quran were delegated by Muhammad to Ali and no one else.
That is also the reason why other Imams are not called Waliyullah. And that is why I specifically said waliyullah with capital W, is applied only to Ali.
If you insist on calling every Muslim waliyullah than you degrade the title of Ali, a phrase also recited in the Adhaan.
It is arrogance for the Dai to claim the title. In the sense you imply, all Muslims are waliyullah.
You might want to protect the doctrine from corruption.
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
serendipity
Remember the time a few years back when the ganesh idol in India started drinking milk? Suddenly that has become a whole lot more believable.Even my LOWLY status has not kept me from being shown who Imam IS, and NO, he is not the direct descendent of the Tayyib Imam. But he has RECEIVED NASS directly through the generations! GO FIGURE, you brilliant male scholars....it's NOT all that difficult. (And by the WAY, as I've tried to gently indicate on this board in the past, it ain't the Dawoodis who understand what's going on! Sorry about your EGO there.)
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
serendipity,
I have to apologize to you for my earlier rants. Actually I have been shown who the Imam is. Yesterday after maghrib prayers there was a knock on my door and a gentleman dressed completely in white walked in and told me that I have reached the level humility that was necessary to be shown who the Imam is and that he was the Imam.
He came in and sat down and asked me for some water. I called my wife who came in with a glass of water and to my surprise the Imam shrieked and almost jumped out of my first floor balcony. My wife was not supposed to see him since she has not attained the level of humility that is required to see him. Poor guy, he became pale with concern. I then assured him that I won't tell her that he was actually the Imam and that he should not be roaming around in full white but should instead wear lee jeans to be able to mix in.
So I guess we are brothers and sisters in Imam recognition now.
I have to apologize to you for my earlier rants. Actually I have been shown who the Imam is. Yesterday after maghrib prayers there was a knock on my door and a gentleman dressed completely in white walked in and told me that I have reached the level humility that was necessary to be shown who the Imam is and that he was the Imam.
He came in and sat down and asked me for some water. I called my wife who came in with a glass of water and to my surprise the Imam shrieked and almost jumped out of my first floor balcony. My wife was not supposed to see him since she has not attained the level of humility that is required to see him. Poor guy, he became pale with concern. I then assured him that I won't tell her that he was actually the Imam and that he should not be roaming around in full white but should instead wear lee jeans to be able to mix in.
So I guess we are brothers and sisters in Imam recognition now.
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
Anajmi,
Yes, the Imam is all in white. I have seenn him too. If you hurry, you can catch a glimpse of at http://www.share-international.org/
Yes, the Imam is all in white. I have seenn him too. If you hurry, you can catch a glimpse of at http://www.share-international.org/
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
eeeeeeeeeeee!!!! How did he get photographed???? Now people with less humility than what is required will be able to see him!!!!
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
uuuhhh he is not the Imam uuuhhhhh you photographed the wrong guy uuuhhhuuhh just like Saddam he has his own look alikes to fool people..... yes that is what it is, a look alike.
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serendipity
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:01 am
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
Hey dudes, what's the DEAL with this business of being dressed all "IN WHITE"? Surely not something I said! Is it some secret fetish of yours...maybe CROSS-DRESSING? (Ha ha, what do you THINK JC?) Or maybe you got this real bad thing for VIRGIN WHITE Western-style bridal gowns? IS THAT perhaps how you'd like to have your HOURIS "served up" to you in Paradise, anajmi? 
How's WIFEY feel about that?
How's WIFEY feel about that?Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
serendipity,
Out of all that was posted all you saw was "IN WHITE"?? I am sure that wasn't the point of my posts. I was actually advertising for Lee.
Out of all that was posted all you saw was "IN WHITE"?? I am sure that wasn't the point of my posts. I was actually advertising for Lee.
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
And of course, the fact that I have been shown who the Imam is.
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
porus,
ok wali also is used as "protector". why is that any different. the intention in the use of the word awliyah is as both friend and protector and more appropriate maybe the definition as religious guide of Allah.
all the Imams are considered waliyuallah as reference is many hadiths, though maulana ali has a special connection with the word (being the asas of the imams). this is like prophet muhammad being known as "rasullah". well prophets isa, musa, ibrahim, etc. were all rasullahs (messengers of Allah) also. but prophet muhammad has a connection with the term. thus maulana ali is referred to mainly as "amirul muminin" and not "waliyullah". well, during the reign of any Imam, they are known as amirul muminin and waliyullah also.
and no my intention is not to degrade the title, but to clarify it. no common mumin or muslim can be called waliyuallah. they maybe a wali of someone, but not Allah. the title is given to those that are guides of Allah's religion and teachers of the faith. these are the awliyah. and for bohras currently, these are the dais.
ok wali also is used as "protector". why is that any different. the intention in the use of the word awliyah is as both friend and protector and more appropriate maybe the definition as religious guide of Allah.
all the Imams are considered waliyuallah as reference is many hadiths, though maulana ali has a special connection with the word (being the asas of the imams). this is like prophet muhammad being known as "rasullah". well prophets isa, musa, ibrahim, etc. were all rasullahs (messengers of Allah) also. but prophet muhammad has a connection with the term. thus maulana ali is referred to mainly as "amirul muminin" and not "waliyullah". well, during the reign of any Imam, they are known as amirul muminin and waliyullah also.
and no my intention is not to degrade the title, but to clarify it. no common mumin or muslim can be called waliyuallah. they maybe a wali of someone, but not Allah. the title is given to those that are guides of Allah's religion and teachers of the faith. these are the awliyah. and for bohras currently, these are the dais.
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
porus,
thank you for clarify the word "naib" tracing back to arabic. i am assuming the meaning is still representative, correct?
thank you for clarify the word "naib" tracing back to arabic. i am assuming the meaning is still representative, correct?
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
Spot,
If you really believe that the Dai is Waliyulllah (with capital W), what is stopping you from saying "Ash-hadu anna Muhammad Burhanuddin Waliyullah" in Adhaan? Why is Ali singled out?
As I explained, this has a significance with respect to Quran, which is God's word. Wali is protector and in this particuar instance, it refers both to the historical and mystical Ali as protector of Allah's deen and specifically of the the Quran. Quran's protection refers not only on its historical basis in which Ali's interpretation of Quran held supreme, even during the reign of Abu Bakr, Umar and Usman; but also to Ali being the natiq, whose life is considered the living Quran by all the Shia.
Ali's claim as Wali are further enhanced by the supreme sacrifice of his family in order to protect the purity of Islam.
Guides may be called awliya-u-llah. But they are not Wali in the sense that Ali is, which has direct sanction from the Quran.
Again, wali=friend? How can you be friends with Allah? Like you can be a friend with another human? Then everyone can be waliyullah. In fact, lost of Muslims (not Bohras) choose Waliyullah as a name for their sons.
As for naib, it mean deputy. A deputy can be a representative in absence of the title holder. So Dai is both the deputy and representative of the Imam.
If you really believe that the Dai is Waliyulllah (with capital W), what is stopping you from saying "Ash-hadu anna Muhammad Burhanuddin Waliyullah" in Adhaan? Why is Ali singled out?
As I explained, this has a significance with respect to Quran, which is God's word. Wali is protector and in this particuar instance, it refers both to the historical and mystical Ali as protector of Allah's deen and specifically of the the Quran. Quran's protection refers not only on its historical basis in which Ali's interpretation of Quran held supreme, even during the reign of Abu Bakr, Umar and Usman; but also to Ali being the natiq, whose life is considered the living Quran by all the Shia.
Ali's claim as Wali are further enhanced by the supreme sacrifice of his family in order to protect the purity of Islam.
Guides may be called awliya-u-llah. But they are not Wali in the sense that Ali is, which has direct sanction from the Quran.
Again, wali=friend? How can you be friends with Allah? Like you can be a friend with another human? Then everyone can be waliyullah. In fact, lost of Muslims (not Bohras) choose Waliyullah as a name for their sons.
As for naib, it mean deputy. A deputy can be a representative in absence of the title holder. So Dai is both the deputy and representative of the Imam.
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
porus,
maybe i am missing something. maulana ali was a protector of the quran and was quran an'natiq. this is the same for every imam (from imam hasan to imam az'zaman). they are the quran an'natiq and the wali of Allah.
you seem to be more versed in arabic than i am. what is the difference between wali (singular) and awliyah?
maybe i am missing something. maulana ali was a protector of the quran and was quran an'natiq. this is the same for every imam (from imam hasan to imam az'zaman). they are the quran an'natiq and the wali of Allah.
you seem to be more versed in arabic than i am. what is the difference between wali (singular) and awliyah?
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
There is NO IMAM and we DO NOT need an Imam. imam in the sense Shias are taking it today icluding fool bohras. My teacher in Islam, the person who guides me, gives me knowledge may be termed as my Imam. the teacher who taught me English was also my Imam, so was those who taught me other subjects.
There is nothing as Naib Imam in the conventional concept of Imamat too. Imam is supposed to be one and only - there is no second in command, he is the SOLE ruler and SOLE authority. He may have Dais, Wazirs, Mazoons, Mukasir but NOTHING which has a taste of Imam, leave alone Naib Imam.
Madam Serendipity,
All White - may be yes, you guessed it right.
And I am a GAYNTLEMAN ......... how about that.
I know Ma'am you are a respected lady and not GAY like me, but even then we have one thing in common .... we both like GUYS .... hahahahaha
And Anajmi,
Even when there are only four souls on earth and even when 3 are ladies and only one dick as you, I will be Around, trust me, will be there somewhere, near you ... as ONLY ASS around .... hahahahahahhaha
There is nothing as Naib Imam in the conventional concept of Imamat too. Imam is supposed to be one and only - there is no second in command, he is the SOLE ruler and SOLE authority. He may have Dais, Wazirs, Mazoons, Mukasir but NOTHING which has a taste of Imam, leave alone Naib Imam.
Madam Serendipity,
All White - may be yes, you guessed it right.
And I am a GAYNTLEMAN ......... how about that.
I know Ma'am you are a respected lady and not GAY like me, but even then we have one thing in common .... we both like GUYS .... hahahahaha
And Anajmi,
Even when there are only four souls on earth and even when 3 are ladies and only one dick as you, I will be Around, trust me, will be there somewhere, near you ... as ONLY ASS around .... hahahahahahhaha
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
Spot,
There is not much that I can add to convince you that only Ali is entitled to be called Waliyullah.
However, consider that Imam Jaafar al-Sadiq has a bayaan describing the importance of saying Aliyyun Waliyullah after saying Muhammdun Rasulullah. Immam Jaafar did not insist that people call him Waliyullah.
Another instance is in tashahud, when you recite: "Muhammadun ne'ma ar-rasul, wa Aliyyun ne'ma al-wali".
Loosely, you are saying that Muhammad is the most noble of messengers and Ali is the most noble of Wali". Again, Imams are not mentioned in the same breath. And all Shia Imams also recited the same kalima and tashahud.
Ali is not considered Imam by the Bohras, but asas (foundation) of Imamat and Wasi. And, according to the Shia exegetes of the Quran, Ali's wilayat is refrenced by specific ayats in the Quran.
Ali's title cannot be claimed by any other Imam or Dai. However, you may call them wali, with small w, if you insist.
Yes, awliya is plural of wali.
There is not much that I can add to convince you that only Ali is entitled to be called Waliyullah.
However, consider that Imam Jaafar al-Sadiq has a bayaan describing the importance of saying Aliyyun Waliyullah after saying Muhammdun Rasulullah. Immam Jaafar did not insist that people call him Waliyullah.
Another instance is in tashahud, when you recite: "Muhammadun ne'ma ar-rasul, wa Aliyyun ne'ma al-wali".
Loosely, you are saying that Muhammad is the most noble of messengers and Ali is the most noble of Wali". Again, Imams are not mentioned in the same breath. And all Shia Imams also recited the same kalima and tashahud.
Ali is not considered Imam by the Bohras, but asas (foundation) of Imamat and Wasi. And, according to the Shia exegetes of the Quran, Ali's wilayat is refrenced by specific ayats in the Quran.
Ali's title cannot be claimed by any other Imam or Dai. However, you may call them wali, with small w, if you insist.
Yes, awliya is plural of wali.
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
porus,
there are several things you are overlooking. firstly, no shiah denies the adding of aliyun waliyuallah to the adhan or the shahadah. but it is because of clarify who we follow and the direction of our adherence that we add these things.
muhammad is the most noble of messengers and ali is the most noble of walis. but this doesn't mean that only muhammad was a messenger or ali was the only wali. this is your assumption.
all nabis, rasuls, and wasis are firstly Imams. the other titles are given as a higher status or position. so ali was an imam but was more importantly the asas and wasi of the prophet.
in actually, ali's true title by all shiah is offically "amirul muminin" not waliyuallah. remember we also say "..aliyun wasiyun wa waliyun".
there are several things you are overlooking. firstly, no shiah denies the adding of aliyun waliyuallah to the adhan or the shahadah. but it is because of clarify who we follow and the direction of our adherence that we add these things.
muhammad is the most noble of messengers and ali is the most noble of walis. but this doesn't mean that only muhammad was a messenger or ali was the only wali. this is your assumption.
all nabis, rasuls, and wasis are firstly Imams. the other titles are given as a higher status or position. so ali was an imam but was more importantly the asas and wasi of the prophet.
in actually, ali's true title by all shiah is offically "amirul muminin" not waliyuallah. remember we also say "..aliyun wasiyun wa waliyun".
this is not supported by any belief of shiah. all shiah believe all the imams were walis of allah and consider the title to ali only because is the asas of the imams.Ali's title cannot be claimed
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
Re: Musafir's posting on posted 04-22-2005 11:06 AM saying:
" In Ismaili Jamat Khanas yes they put pictures of "Hazar Imam" means Karim Aga Khan. It use to be on front wall, so all the sajjad's were done to his picture. Since few years they have changed the placement of pictures, one in man's section on side wall and one in women's section on side wall. Earlier Ismailis use to recite salwat by looking at the picture of Imam - e - zaman."
Please access (cut and paste) the following site of Kothari Toronto Jamaat. They already have pictures of HH Aqua Moula in the Toronto Masjid.
http://www.torontojamat.ca/Ntorontojama ... %20048.jpg
Some of the Bohra Namazis also keep HH Aqua Moula's photo on the masallah during their prayers to Allah, we understand.
" In Ismaili Jamat Khanas yes they put pictures of "Hazar Imam" means Karim Aga Khan. It use to be on front wall, so all the sajjad's were done to his picture. Since few years they have changed the placement of pictures, one in man's section on side wall and one in women's section on side wall. Earlier Ismailis use to recite salwat by looking at the picture of Imam - e - zaman."
Please access (cut and paste) the following site of Kothari Toronto Jamaat. They already have pictures of HH Aqua Moula in the Toronto Masjid.
http://www.torontojamat.ca/Ntorontojama ... %20048.jpg
Some of the Bohra Namazis also keep HH Aqua Moula's photo on the masallah during their prayers to Allah, we understand.
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
Spot,
We are not talking about who is rasul and who is wali. You may call anyone you like rasul or wali.
We are talking about whom Allah calls Rasul or Wali. We are talking about who can claim the title of Waliyullah as it is sanctioned by Allah in Quran.
Rasul is specifically applied to Muhammad and 11 other anbiya in the Quran. Moses is not among them. However he is listed as Nabi in the Quran.
Similarly, do you know anyone who is called Wali by Allah in his book? I do not believe that anyone is mentioned explicitly. But Shia and some Sunni exegetes identify specific ayats in the Quran which is intended to refer to Ali as Wali of Allah.
I do not wish to add anything to this discussion.
We are not talking about who is rasul and who is wali. You may call anyone you like rasul or wali.
We are talking about whom Allah calls Rasul or Wali. We are talking about who can claim the title of Waliyullah as it is sanctioned by Allah in Quran.
Rasul is specifically applied to Muhammad and 11 other anbiya in the Quran. Moses is not among them. However he is listed as Nabi in the Quran.
Similarly, do you know anyone who is called Wali by Allah in his book? I do not believe that anyone is mentioned explicitly. But Shia and some Sunni exegetes identify specific ayats in the Quran which is intended to refer to Ali as Wali of Allah.
I do not wish to add anything to this discussion.
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
porus,
i fail to understand your reasoning.
it is not about who we consider wali or rasul..it is the definition given by Allah. we agree on this.
however, why is ali considered a wali? because of his position to the prophet and as who he is. wali is not a title as you claim it is. the last revealed ayat of the quran defines ali as the maula of every believer as the prophet is (eg ghadir khum). so if anything he should be called officially "maula".
i fail to understand your reasoning.
it is not about who we consider wali or rasul..it is the definition given by Allah. we agree on this.
however, why is ali considered a wali? because of his position to the prophet and as who he is. wali is not a title as you claim it is. the last revealed ayat of the quran defines ali as the maula of every believer as the prophet is (eg ghadir khum). so if anything he should be called officially "maula".
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Africawala
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:01 am
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
Brother Saif,
What about the Makabaras inside the Mosques? e.g. Yahya Nabi in Omayad Mosque in syria, Prophet Mohammed's in Medinah, Ali in Najaf and Hussein in Kerbala? To name just a few. The Prophet had repeatedly said that he would not like his tomb to be inside a place of worship and there are ahadith with reference to this.
What about the Makabaras inside the Mosques? e.g. Yahya Nabi in Omayad Mosque in syria, Prophet Mohammed's in Medinah, Ali in Najaf and Hussein in Kerbala? To name just a few. The Prophet had repeatedly said that he would not like his tomb to be inside a place of worship and there are ahadith with reference to this.
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
Africawala,
I think you got it inside out. Medina became a place or worship after the prophet got buried over there, Karbala became a place of worship after Hussein got buried over there and Najaf became a place of worship after Hazrat Ali got buried over there.
The prophet actually got buried in the house of his last wife Ayesha (ra).
I think you got it inside out. Medina became a place or worship after the prophet got buried over there, Karbala became a place of worship after Hussein got buried over there and Najaf became a place of worship after Hazrat Ali got buried over there.
The prophet actually got buried in the house of his last wife Ayesha (ra).
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Africawala
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:01 am
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
Whatever, anajmi, but the Prayer houses were built around them. Why?
Re: 12 ers Versus Dawoodi Bohra - Differences
Africawala,
The point you are trying to make has already been refuted. Or may be you are being really smart and are asking the followers of Aga Khan to first hang his picture and then build a mosque around it which will make it ok to have his picture inside the mosque.
Smart fellow you are.
The point you are trying to make has already been refuted. Or may be you are being really smart and are asking the followers of Aga Khan to first hang his picture and then build a mosque around it which will make it ok to have his picture inside the mosque.
Smart fellow you are.