the dais family

[bohraji]

just curious,I hope the ones informed will help me.
As alavi bohras started off with the then dai's grandson then the alavi bohra kothar must be the first cousins of the dawoodi bohra kothar.
This means that a shazada who must have once been lavishly treated, went and formed a cult of his own.I wonder if the different bohra communities ,like the sunni,sulaimani,artalis,etc were stared off by such royals as well.
This cleary means that it has always been the humble mumins that have been loyal and only such shazadas have been the deceivers and formed their own groups.
who knows ,out of which current shazada who is treated as aprince will later become "Lanat na Haqdaar"
Comments Please

[pro_pig]

bohraji is thinking creating new community called bohraji bohra.

[pro_pig]

another new maula bohraji bohra,asgar engg maula,

[bohraji]

To the pigs dismay,
I am not a bhaisaheb,but fortunately a simple mumin.Therefore I have no intentions of splitting the community, rather as fellow mumins,we all prefer to be within our fate.

[pro_pig]

good

[bohraji]

sorry, spelling mietake,the last word should have been "faith"

[tahir]

I'v heard that if a bohra wants to trace his relationship with any other bohra under the sun,he can do it by going back at most four generations. And I guess this is true for any small community.

That means even if I don't know you at all, I can establish a blood relationship between mine and your great grandpas (if not before that).

[SBM]

Tahir
I donot know about you but I would not like to trace my relationship with PIGS,FROGGYS and BIRDIES, I do not belong to that animal kingdom and neither are my immediate ancestors

[Sajid Zafar]

Bohraji,

Can you please provide the details from which Dai Alavi Bohras splite from Dawoodi Bohras and the reason for break up. I did visited their web site (which is quite detailed) but couldn't figure it out. Other details will alo be appreciated by anyone. Thanks.

[pro_pig]

yes,u can check with asgar,insaf,tahir,om,jc u will get some details

[Hussain_KSA]

Yes becasue you only know how to sing "GHANO JIVO GHANO JIVO" pujosh matam, Jaman & qadambosi.

[JC]

Well Said Hussain-KSA and well said Tahir too. I can see Om doesnot want to associate even a bit with OrthoDOGS.

Who cares from dai Alavis broke and when - the point is WHY did they broke??!! It was simply for power and money and yes, it always comes from any so-called shahzada. look at current heirs, they all are like thugs, worse then dawood ibrahim, look at their faces and looks, you will blood-thirsty wolves!! if they donto get their part of 'bone' they will broke the bones of incoming dai. so there will be split once burhan dies - and that is very soon.

[bohraji]

For Sajid.
I got the following info from the official websThe mainstream Bohras are named after their 27th Da'i Saiyedna Dawoodji ibn Qutubshah (d. 1612) at the split of Sulaymani Bohras. After the death of 28th Da'i Saiyedna Shaikh Adam Safiyuddin (d. 1621), a major split occurred in mainstream Bohras and those who adhered to the da'iship of the 29th Da'i-e-Mutlaq Saiyedna Ali Shamsuddin bin Ibraheem ash-shaheed came to be known as Alavi Bohras . This schism divided the mainstream Bohras into two different community viz. Alavi Bohras and Dawoodi Bohras .
ite of the Alia Bohras."

Can Porus or Mr. Engineer or Mr. Insaf inform us more on the nagoshis,Hebtiyas and more details of the artalis and sunni bohras?

[aftabm]

For Sajid and bohraji..

i got his info from Jonah Blanks book "Mullas on mainframe)

.............................

Syedna Daud ibn Qutbshah was succeeded by his aide Shaikh Adam Saifuddin: nine years later, Daud ibn Qutbshah’s son Abdul-Tayyib Zakiuddin succeeded as the twenty-ninth da’i. His nass was challenged, however, by Ali ibn Ibrahim, a grandson of Syedna Adam Saifuddin. When the case was brought to Emperor Jehangir for adjudication, the Mughal badshah ruled in favor of Abdul-Tayyib and ordered all parties to reconcile peacefully. All agreed, but once he returned to Ahmedabad he revoked his acquiescence and claimed the title for himself in (or shortly after) 1034/1624. The Alia Bohras have, like the Sulaimanis, maintained a separate line of da’is ever since, while holding to the same basic doctrines as those of the Daudis. At the beginning of the twentieth century Alias were said not to intermarry with Daudis but to be similar to them in appearance and behavior. The seat of the modern Alia dawat is Baroda, where Syedna Tayyib Diya al-Din holds the office of forty-fourth Alia da’i (the lineage is identical up to the time of the Aliad schism). The community is now said to number only 5,000, and has never comprised more than a tiny fraction of the Bohra population.
The Alias themselves experienced a schism during the tenure of Syedna Shamsuddin Ali, the thirty-seventh da’i of their lineage. In 1204/ 1789 a group of antinomians broke away from the Aliyya, preaching that the era of Islam had ended and all practices enjoined by sharia were no longer necessary. They espoused a number of Hindu notions, including vegetarianism, and for this reason were labeled Nagoshiyya (from na ghosh, “no-meat”). As of 1897, they were said to have dwindled to a mere four households (all in Baroda) and to have intermarried with Aliyya but not with Daudis. Twentieth-century references to Bohras almost in variably refer to the Nagoshis as “practically” extinct, but there does not seem to be any firsthand account of this group for at least a hundred years. The ultimate reference point for all twentieth-century citations is an 1899 gazetteer. so unless some researcher documents the present-day existence of Nagoshiyya,

[aftabm]

here is information about hebtiah bohra

Hibtia Schism
During the Ujjaini period the dawat suffered another schism, this one less disruptive than those of the past. In 1171/1761 Syedna Hibtullah was challenged by a young shaikh who
38
(coincidentally) bore the same name. Shaikh Hibtullah claimed that his father, Shaikh Ismail, had been in con tact with the hidden imam, who had given him the title of hujja. In the old Fatimid hierarchy the hujja outranked the da’i al-mutlaq, so Shaikh Hib tullah claimed supreme authority over the entire community. Such a claim might ordinarily have been treated with derision, but both father and son were scholars of high standing in the community: a catalogue of Ismaili texts that they compiled would later form the basis for much of the bibli ographical work of Wladamir Ivanow. The Daudi da’i, however, enjoyed excellent relations not only with the Mughal emperor Shah Alam (he held the title of Mughal Qadi of Ujjain) but also with the Maratha leader Sindhia and with the British East India Company as well. The dissident cause, moreover, lost all hope of mass support when Shaikh Hibtullah inexplicably decided to marry one of his father’s divorced wives.
Various attempts were made at reconciliation, but the rebels were adamant. Eventually the dawat apprehended Shaikh Hibtullah and cut off his nose as a mark of humiliation. Describing the incident from the stand point of the early twentieth century, dissident Abdul Husain acidly ob served, “Apparently, the mania of the orthodox Bohra fanatics of Ujjain for cutting the noses [ of a dissenter is getting hereditary, for recently they have cut the nose of a suspected dissenter who had joined the Mahdibagh camp.” The Hibtia schismatics survived into the nineteenth century, and twentieth-century texts describe the sect as being still represented by a few families in Ujjain, but these accounts (like those of the Nagoshiyya) all seem to stem from information in the 1899 gazetteer.

[aftabm]

Artaliswala, or mehdibagwalas, Atba i malak jamaat vakili and badri group...a another schism.. and the story is quite intresting...

Here it is...

[bohraji]

Thank you Amerge,
I hope to get more knowledge on the artalis wala,as the link provided is quite old.I beleive that the artalis wala is still thriving.
Just for my curiosity,are you a shaikh or have you studied the subject deeply or did you get the info from the net?
thanks again

[Sajid Zafar]

Amerage and Bohraji. Thanks for the input.

[aftabm]

Dear bohraji,

i m not a shaikh or mullah..... and i dont want to be... i am born and brought up in a reformist family in udaipur.....

I have given the source of the information too... the alaviyas info i got fron jonah blanks book.

i keep on searching about bohra history, n whtever intrestin bits n piece of info i get i try to share with you.

[tahir]

Just curious to know if Alavis are as closed and xenophobic as bohras.

-Do they have an honest dai who knows his duties or he too is like syedna burhanuddin?
-Is their dai equally insecure and issues 'baraats' to people who he thinks can expose his 'dukandaari'?
-Do they allow other shia subsects to enter their mosques etc.?

In short, are they too falling down in the couldron of sin like dawoodi bohras or are they better off?

[anajmi]

tahir,

I have answered these questions about the alavi bohras on the other thread with the Alavi Bohra title. They don't come anywhere close to the Dawoodi bohras with regards to the points you mentioned.

[tahir]

Thanks Anajmi. I somehow missed that post.

[aftabm]

Atba i malak jamaat fiasco, which apparently seems to be a great drama with a self styled imam being a central character and a fight over secession of power..

Self-Styled Imam Raises Flurry of Fatwas -yoginder sikand

May be dawoodi bohras are inching towards the same destination

[Shahu]

I have met some Dawoodi Bohra families who converted to Shia Ithna-Ashari about 25 years ago.

Bohra Shia Ithna-Ashari

http://www.bohrashia.com/

[bohraji]

Correct me if I am wrong .But I think Shahu has made a mistake.The Bohra Isna Ashari was formed by the Alia Bohras and not Dawoodi as mentioned in the link provided.
It is really sad the fragments of dawoodi bohras s are breaking away,I have heard that there are quite a few bohras in the states who have turned to twelvers.
And ofcourse there are few families and individuals in Dubai who have become sunni wahabi fanatics.
I wonder whatever happend to the Taizoon bhaisaheb of the Zahir batin fame.Is he alright or has been forcefully surpressed.
Amerge,could you tell me about Ivanov.

[bohraji]

Correct me if I am wrong .But I think Shahu has made a mistake.The Bohra Isna Ashari was formed by the Alia Bohras and not Dawoodi as mentioned in the link provided.
It is really sad the fragments of dawoodi bohras s are breaking away,I have heard that there are quite a few bohras in the states who have turned to twelvers.
And ofcourse there are few families and individuals in Dubai who have become sunni wahabi fanatics.
I wonder whatever happend to the Taizoon bhaisaheb of the Zahir batin fame.Is he alright or has been forcefully surpressed.
Amerge,could you tell me about Ivanov.

[Muslim First]

It is really sad the fragments of dawoodi bohras s are breaking away,I have heard that there are quite a few bohras in the states who have turned to twelvers.
And ofcourse there are few families and individuals in Dubai who have become sunni wahabi fanatics.

Br. Bohraji
AS
When person is exposed to fraud of Bohras, he looks for spiritual guidance somewhere else.
Good for them and good luck to them.
.

[aftabm]

Dear bohraji...

Last i have heard of Taizoon BS, that he has shifted(hastily because of the zahit batin controversy) to Canada, or was it US.....

As for Vladimir Ivanov,
i could find this much...
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
V. A. Ivanow or Vladimir (also written as Wladimir) Alekseevich Ivanow (or Ivanov) (November 3, 1886- June 19, 1970) was a famous Russian orientalist. He was born in Petersburg, Russia and died in Tehran, Iran. His work on Ismailism has opened new doors for the modern researchers on Islam. He graduated in 1907 and joined the faculty of Oriental Languages of the University of St. Petersburg.
His paper on early ismailism can be found dated back to thirties...
here is another link
Vladimir Ivanov

[aftabm]

Br. Bohraji AS
When person is exposed to fraud of Bohras, he looks for spiritual guidance somewhere else.
Good for them and good luck to them.

Dear MF,

Such persons try to find a easier way out, and seek the guidance from some one else. Instead, they could decide to stay on, try and purge the system, strive for betterment of the system.
We, reformist bohras, decide to stay on and put a fight against the wrongdoings...
It is easy to secede out, make a new sect or ideology, but difficult to stay on, fight against the corruption and the corrupted components.

[SBM]

Amerge
Very well said.