Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

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Muslim First
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Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#1

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:30 pm

Adam wrote:
Secondly, you are WRONG. Rather, Syedna Taher Saifuddin RA proved the concept of the Imam by stating the Ayat in Surah Yaseen

و كل شئي احصيناه في امام مبين
Adam Bhai

Please educate us how Marhum Syedna proved concept of Imamat using 36:12?

Here are 2 translations of 36:12. It definitely talks manifest Imam as book.


اِنَّا نَحۡنُ نُحۡىِ الۡمَوۡتٰى وَنَكۡتُبُ مَا قَدَّمُوۡا وَاٰثَارَهُمۡؕ وَكُلَّ شَىۡءٍ اَحۡصَيۡنٰهُ فِىۡۤ اِمَامٍ مُّبِيۡنٍ‏ ﴿36:12(

(Maudidi 36:12) We shall surely raise the dead to life and We record what they did and the traces of their deeds that they have left behind. We have encompassed that in a Clear Book.

[Shakir 36:12] Surely We give life to the dead, and We write down what they have sent before and their footprints, and We have recorded everything in a clear writing.

Muslim First
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#2

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:19 pm

Majority of Shias use 36:12 as proof oof Imamat.

They use truncuted part of Aya: Inna nahnu nuhyeealmawta wanaktubu ma qaddamoowaatharahum wakulla shay-in ahsaynahu fee imamin mubeen

Ismailis of all shades use this as a proof of their beelief in Imams.

Bohras are forebidden to read translation of Qur'an so clergy can feed Qur'anic knowlwdge tailored to Fatemi belief.

Please explain how 36;12 PROVES CONCEPT OF IMAMAT.

progticide
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#3

Unread post by progticide » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:05 am

Moron First,

why only Surah 36:12? If you ever read Holy Quran (in Arabic ofcourse) you should not have missed Surah Al-Isra 17:71.

Let me quote your favourite Shakir's and other's translation of Holy Quran, Surah 17:71

Yusuf Ali
One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.

Shakir
(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.

If you chose to read Sahih International or Pickthall, than you have surely missed the word Imam.

No wonder, Syedna(TUS) and all previous muqaddas Duat Mutlaqeen emphasised on reciting the Holy Quran in Arabic to avoid such fundamental errors.

No surprise you chose to disobey and you got lead astray.

anajmi
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#4

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:31 am

Think Progticide, think. If you are going to be called with your Imam then what is the record that Allah is talking about? Seriously man? Are you people incapable of going through an entire ayah before commenting on it? The interpretation of "Imam" as "your record" is consistent across both the ayahs. You will be called with your record and then it will be given to you in one of your hands.

Adam
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#5

Unread post by Adam » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:40 pm

Thank you Profastian
That is correct.

I would also like to add :

The real issue is the Tafseer of the Quran and the authority each person follows.
Each sect does tafseer of the Quran in accordance to its own belief.

For example PORUS keeps stating that the infallibility of the Panjatan from the Ayat Tatheer. This is a Shia Tafseer as you wouldn't find it in any Sunni/Wahabi biased tafseer.
So, it all comes down to which Authority/Sect/Belief you follow, according to that are the tafseers.

For example, the Yaseen Ayat stated above, if you read Shia translation it says : (I have translated in English)

وذكر ابن عباس عن أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام أنه قال: أنا والله الإِمام المبين أبين الحق من الباطل وورثته من رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وهو محكم.
(Ameer ul Mumineen said "I swear by Allah, I am the "Imam e Mobeen", I clarify Haq from Batil - and progeny of Rasulullah SAW)

{ وَكُلَّ شيْءٍ } غير المذكورات { أَحْصَيْنَاهُ } اى كتبناه { فِي? إِمَامٍ مُّبِينٍ } هو اللّوح المحفوظ، او القلم الاعلى، او الامام الّذى هو بنفسه علم الله بكلّ شيءٍ فانّ الله بكلّ شيءٍ عليم
(And everything we have summed up in the Imam e Mobeen, that is the Lawhe-Mahfooz or the Qalam e Ala or the Imam, to whom himself Allah has taught everything, and All knows all)

This is also accordance to the Dawoodi Bohra belief in regard to the Zikr of the IMAM.

Also, the word "IMAM" is clearly mentioned in this ayat, and the one in Surah ISRA (as profastian mentioned).

It's all about the authority you follow.

porus
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#6

Unread post by porus » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:49 pm

Adam wrote:
For example PORUS keeps stating that the infallibility of the Panjatan from the Ayat Tatheer. This is a Shia Tafseer as you wouldn't find it in any Sunni/Wahabi biased tafseer.
Ayat of tatheer is insufficient by itself to identify who ahlul bayt are. The ayat requires to be supplemented by the hadith of 'ahl al-kisaa' to identify Panjatan to have been 'purified'. That is why I consider only the Panjatan to be infallible.

Tha hadith of 'ahl al-kisaa' is accepted by scholars of repute, both Shia and Sunni, and it is included in the the corpus of Sunni Sahih hadith.

anajmi
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#7

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:15 pm

Ayat of tatheer is insufficient by itself to identify who ahlul bayt are.
That is an incorrect interpretation of that Ayah.

Consider this ayah of the Quran.

قَالُواْ أَتَعْجَبِينَ مِنْ أَمْرِ اللّهِ رَحْمَتُ اللّهِ وَبَرَكَاتُهُ عَلَيْكُمْ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ إِنَّهُ حَمِيدٌ مَّجِيدٌ (11:73)

Ahle Bayt over here clearly refers to the wife of prophet Abraham. Hence the meaning of the other ayah is also clear. It refers to the wives of the prophet (saw). As per scholars, the Quran is the primary source of understanding the ayaat of the Quran. Quran explains itself through its own ayaat.

Unfortunately, that interpretation does not work with shia metaphysics doctrine esoteric mythology of the cosmic plane. The hadith serves only to add the family of Hazrat Ali to the Ahle Bayt.

Similarly we can look at the interpretation of the word Imam. Does anyone know the root word and its meaning?

porus
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#8

Unread post by porus » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:35 pm

Let us look at ayats 36:12 and 17:71 of the Quran without considering any previous tafseer, Sunni or Shia. That is, let us create our own tafseer.

First 36:12

إِنَّا نَحْنُ نُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ وَنَكْتُبُ مَا قَدَّمُوا وَآثَارَهُمْ ۚ وَكُلَّ شَيْءٍ أَحْصَيْنَاهُ فِي إِمَامٍ مُبِينٍ

There are three sentences in this ayat joined together by conjunction ‘و’.

1. We shall resurrect the dead
2. We write what they did (while they were alive) and their effects (that is, the results of what they did)
3. And (of) all (these) things, we have kept an account (of it) in a clear Imam.

Let us leave the word Imam untranslated for the moment and consider the word ‘'أَحْصَيْنَاهُ". This word has root Ha, Sa Ya. Its meaning is of keeping an account of events. I do not see it to mean depositing ‘knowledge of everything in the universe’.

The events that are recorded are those described in 2 above. Thus a clear account will be available as recorded in the Imam for all when they are resurrected.

Let us now consider ayat 17:71.

يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ ۖ فَمَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ فَأُولَٰئِكَ يَقْرَءُونَ كِتَابَهُمْ وَلَا يُظْلَمُونَ فَتِيلًا

“We shall summon each person with their Imam. Those who are given their book in their right hands, they will read their book and ‘know’ that they will not be judged harshly.”

In these ayats if you substitute Imam for the book in which there is a record as mentioned in 36:12, it becomes clear that Allah is talking about judgment based on deeds for each person. If you insist that Imam means the person appointed by Allah , then how will Allah deal with those who do not believe in such an Imam? However, it becomes clear because there is a record of each person’s deeds, that is their Imam.

I have another interpretation for Imamin Mubeen in ayat 36:12 which I have explained previously on this board. I will leave you to search for it.

Let us now take the phrase “Imam Mubeen” outside its Quranic context. This can certainly refer to a person like Ali, Hassan or Husain. The reason is that the phrase distinguishes the ‘true’ Imam, one designated by the Prophet, from other pretenders like Muawiya.

It is important that we do not use ayats of the Quran to glorify human beings. Quran has no such intention. Glory belongs only to God alone. Subhanallah!

Finally, I believe that if you studied Quran by yourself without accepting any authority, you would be in a far better position to defend yourself on the Day of Judgment than if your defense relies on being spoon fed with knowledge by someone else.

Muslim First
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#9

Unread post by Muslim First » Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:53 am

From: The Quran Challenge, Part III:
http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBay ... nge-3.html

In this article, we examine every single time the word “imam” is used in the Quran. A central tenet of Shi’ism is to follow the Infallible Imams; to the Shia, it is one of the Usool-e-Deen (Fundamentals of Religion). If this concept of Imamah were truly a fundamental of Islam and if it really were as important as the Shia claim, then surely this concept should be mentioned in the Quran. However, we find that the Quran does not mention the Infallible Imams of the Shia in any way, shape, or form.

The Arabic word “imam” appears seven times in the Quran, and its plural form (a’immah) appears another five times. One of the interesting things about Arabic is the manner in which one word is used in so many different ways all with the same basic root meaning. In regards to the word “imam”, it means “a thing which is followed.” This thing which is followed can be a person, place, or thing. For example, in the Quran, the word “imam” is used to refer to a leader (who is followed), a road (which is followed), and a book (which is followed). In the Quran, the word “imam” is used five times to refer to a thing (i.e. inanimate non-human object), whereas it is used to refer to a person the other seven times. Of these seven times, the word “imam” is never used to refer to the Infallible Imams of the Shia.

Imam = road

The word “imam” translates to “road” in verse 15:79 of the Quran.
1. Quran, 15:79: “So we took vengeance on them; And verily, the two (cities) are on a clear road (imam).
For Shia Tafseer of verse 15:79 along with an in-depth analysis, please click here.

Imam = book

Another four times that the word “imam” is used, it translates to “book” or “record.”
2. Quran, 46:12: “And before this (Quran), there was the book (imam) of Musa, an example and a mercy; and this (Quran) is a confirming book in the Arabic language, that it may warn those who do wrong and bring good tidings for the righteous.”
3. Quran, 11:17: “…And before it was the book (imam) of Musa, a guide and a mercy…”
For Shia Tafseer of verses 46:12 and 11:17 along with an in-depth analysis, please click here.
4. Quran, 36:12: “Verily, We will restore the dead to life, and We write that which they sent forth, and that which they left behind; and everything We have recorded in a clear book (imam).
5. Quran, 17:71-72: “One day We shall call together all human beings with their respective record book (imam): those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least. But those who were blind in this world, will be blind in the hereafter, and most stray from the Path.”
For a critical analysis of verses 36:12 and 17:71-72, please click here.

Other Seven Instances

As we have seen, the word “imam” has been used for inanimate objects five of the times it is used in the Quran, and thus these five verses cannot fulfill The Quran Challenge (i.e. providing proof of the Infallible Imamah from the Quran). The other seven times the Quran mentions the word “imam”, it actually does refer to a person and thus translates to “leader.” However, none of these eight instances refer to the Infallible Imam of the Shia.
The word “imam” is used in the Arabic language to describe any leader. The leader of the prayers would be called “imam”, the leader of the football team would be called the “imam” of his team, and the leader of an army would also be referred to as the “imam” of his troop. Thus, it should be noted that there is a monumental difference between using this word “imam” to describe a leader of a certain group and when we use it to denote the twelve Infallible Imams of the Shia. The Ahlus Sunnah refers to its own prayer and mosque leaders as “imams”; the Shia as well will refer to their political and religious leaders as “imams”, and we commonly hear phrases such as “Imam Khomeini” and “Imam Majlisi”, neither of whom were part of the twelve Infallible Imams of the Shia.

So now the question is: the other seven instances that the word “imam” is used in the Quran, are these verses relating specifically to the twelve Infallible Imams of the Shia, or are they rather referring to “leaders” in general? The answer is clearly the latter: the term “imam” is used to refer to “leader” in the generic sense like the word “leader” is used in the English language.

Evil Leaders

It becomes abundantly clear that the Quran is using the term “imam” to denote “leader” rather than the Infallible Imam of the Shia. Irrefutable proof of this lies in the following two verses in the Quran:
6. Quran, 9:12: “Fight the leaders (imams)]/b] of kufr.”
7. Quran, 28:41: “And We made them leaders (imams) who call towards the Fire.”
It could be argued that these two verses are referring to the Shia Infallible Imams, warning us to fight them because they call us towards Hell-Fire. To such an accusation, the Shia would quickly respond that the word “imam” is used in these two verses not to refer to their Infallible Imams, but rather that the word is being used in the generic sense of “leader”.

We wonder then why the Shia apply a double-standard and apply a different meaning to the verses in the Quran which use the word “imam” in a positive sense? Surely, it would be more consistent and honest to say that the Quran universally uses the word “imam” in the generic sense and that it never refers to the twelve Infallible Imams of the Shia.

The above two verses cannot possibly be in relation to any divinely appointed persons since the persons in question are evil and wicked. Again, the conclusion to be reached is that the Quran uses the word “imam” to denote a leader in the general sense of the word, and has absolutely nothing to do with the Infallible Imams.

Israelites

Allah says in the Quran:
8. Quran, 32:23-25: “We made it a guide for the children of Israel. And We made of them leaders (imams) to guide by Our command so long as they persevered with patience and continued to have faith in Our communications. Verily your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Judgment, in the matters wherein they differ (among themselves).”
9. Quran, 28:4-5: “Lo! Pharaoh exalted himself in the earth and made its people castes. A tribe among them he oppressed, killing their sons and sparing their women. Lo! he was of those who work corruption. And We desired to show favor unto those who were oppressed in the earth, and to make them leaders (imams) and to make them the inheritors.”

These two verses cannot possibly be in relation to any Infallible Imams, since all of the Israelites are promised to become leaders if they persevere with patience and had faith in Allah’s communications. The verse relates to all of the Israelites, and surely all of them were not Infallible Imams. Even Allah says in the same verse that “your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Judgment, in the matters wherein they differ.” This makes it clear that the context is in regards to all of the Israelites who differed amongst each other.

A very convincing argument is found in the book “Imaamah and the Quran: An Objective Perspective”:

The Ayah clearly states that the Bani Israel as a whole were made “Imaams” on Earth. Thus, the entire tribe is given the position of Imaamah in this verse. Comparing it with other Quranic Ayahs about the Children of Israel, we see that it closely resembles Verses such as this one:

“They [the Children of Israel] said: ‘We suffered hurt before you came to us, and since you have come to us.’ He [Musa] said: ‘It may be that your Lord is going to destroy your adversary and make you viceroys in the earth, that He may see how you behave.’” (Quran 7:129)

We see that the position of vicegerency and dominion does not refer in here to a perfect infallible leadership, but rather a leadership where the people are judged for their actions; hence the statement: “that He (Allah) may see how ye behave.”

Thus, the placement of “Imaamah” in the hands of the Children of Israel in this Verse is similar to the dominion and leadership that Allah may bestow upon any people after rescuing them from their oppressors. It cannot refer to a special form of Imaamah simply because the population as a whole is granted this Imaamah, and they are responsible for the good and bad actions they commit once they are placed under this position.

Source: “imam” and the Quran: An Objective Perspective”, authored by Sidi Abu Salih. This book is endorsed by the Ahlel Bayt website and can be downloaded here.

Furthermore, the Israelites were promised leadership so long as they perservered with patience and had faith in Allah’s communications. Thus, their leadership was contingent on fulfilling these two things. According to the Shia, Imamah is a title given to a person at birth and it is not a position that is earned by doing good deeds or showing patience. So why would Allah make the leadership contingent on the behavior of these individuals? Clearly these two verses do not conform to the Shia doctrine of Imamah, and the authentic Shia Tafseer do not attempt to use these verses to refer to the doctrine of Infallible Imamah.

Leaders of the Pious

There are only two verses left which the Shia use to respond to The Quran Challenge and which they base their entire theology upon:
10. Quran, 2:124: “And (remember) when his Lord tried Ibrahim with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: ‘Lo! I have appointed you a leader (imam) for mankind.’ (Ibrahim) said: ‘And of my offspring (will there be leaders)?’ He said: ‘My covenant includes not Zalimoon (wrong-doers).’”
11. Quran, 21:72-73: “And We gave him Ishaq and Yaqoub, a son’s son, and We made (them) all good. And We made them leaders (imams) who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve.”
Now the question is: is the word “imam” being used to denote a leader in the generic sense, or are we referring to the Infallible Imams of the Shia? The Shia will adamantly claim that this refers to their Infallible Imams, and yet they will conveniently ignore the following verse in the Quran which also uses the word “imam” in a similar context:
12. Quran, 25:71-74: “And whoever repents and does good has truly turned to Allah with an (acceptable) conversion; Those who witness no falsehood, and, if they pass by futility, they pass by it with honorable (avoidance); Those who, when they are admonished with the Signs of their Lord, droop not down at them as if they were deaf or blind; Those who say: ‘Our Lord, grant us the coolness of our eyes in our wives and children, and make us leaders (imams) of the pious.’”

In this verse, Allah Almighty is talking about who are the righteous believers. This verse speaks of normal people who do not belong to a special class like the Prophets, asking Allah to make them leaders, in the sense of paragons of virtue, whose example others would strive to emulate. It is very obvious that it cannot refer to a group of “divinely appointed Imams.” The verse clearly mentions that whoever fulfills those conditions (i.e. repents, does good, etc.) should invoke Allah to make them paragons of virtue (i.e. leaders of the pious).
In the verses we discussed previously, we have seen that the word “imam” was used to denote an evil leader in the general sense of the word; over here, we see that the word is used to denote a good leader in the general sense of the word. This is not referring to any Infallible Imam of the Shia. It is telling normal people to invoke Allah to make them leaders. The Infallible Imams are, according to Shia belief, appointed Imams at birth and this position of infallibility is not something that a person can pray for or get simply by doing good deeds.
The Shia will continually try pushing the verse in relation to Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) to prove their doctrine of Imamah. They will state that the verse clearly declares that the Imams will be infallible because in it Allah says: “My covenant includes not Zalimoon (wrong-doers, unjust, etc).” This argument is quickly rejected because the opposite of Zalimoon (wrong-doers) is not Infallible but rather it is Mu’min (good-doer) or ‘Adl (just). Allah promised to make the righteous to be leaders of the world, but His promise would not extend to those who were Zalimoon.

Indeed, a person who is fallible is not necessarily one of the Zalimoon. If that were the case, are we going to argue that Ayatollah Khomeini is one of the Zalimoon? Or what about the Prophets who were not raised to the level of Imams; are they Zalimoon? What about Salman Al-Farsi (رضّى الله عنه) who is fallible but still revered by the Shia? Or the other great heroes of Islam? How can the pious Muslims be Zalimoon when Allah orders them to fight the Zalimoon? This would be a logical inconsistency. As can be seen, the opposite of Zalimoon is not infallible; otherwise, this would be declaring all of these pious personalities to be Zaalim!

The verse in the Quran regarding Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) simply states that Allah’s covenant does not extend to the unjust, so what is the opposite of unjust? The following response can be found in the book “Imaamah and the Quran: An Objective Perspective”:

Who is a just person?

The immediate word that would come to our minds when thinking of the opposite of “unjust” is “just”. It is not “perfect” or “Infallible”. This is obvious, and does not need much elucidation. Thus, the qualities of a just person in general is what the reader should strive to look for. The answer is found from the answers given by the office of Grand Ayatullah Ali al-Sistani:

Question: Who is a just person?

Answer : A person is said to be just when he performs all those acts which are obligatory upon him, and refrains from all those things which are forbidden to him. And the sign of being just is that one is apparently of a good character, so that if enquiries are made about him from the people of his locality, or from his neighbours, or from those persons with whom he lives, they would confirm his good conduct.
Source: http://www.sistani.org/html/eng/main/in ... eng&part=4

It is seen from the Ayatullah’s answer that under normal circumstances the definition of “just” is not at all connected with divine protection from sin, but rather concerns the overall good conduct and piety of a person. It struck me as strange as to how this can suddenly change for one Verse of the Quran, without any unbiased reason provided from the Shia side.

Source: “Imaamah and the Quran: An Objective Perspective”, authored by Sidi Abu Salih. This book is endorsed by the Ahlel Bayt website and can be downloaded here.

The unbiased person could not justify the concept of Imamah simply from a couple verses in the Quran which refer to Prophets as leaders of the pious. The term “imam” is used in the generic sense of “leader” and it would take a wild imagination to say that it refers to some distinct position or rank (i.e. the Infallible Imamah). The Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم)was referred to as a “noor” (light) and “bashar” (human being) but do we say that these are two distinct positions and ranks? Of course not! Any sane person would agree that these words are used in there general sense. It would be preposterous to say that the Prophet was given the rank of Noor and that there are other people who also reach this position of Noor. Likewise, the Quran uses the common Arabic word “imam” and it is an injustice of the Shia to mangle it to create a specific position or rank based around it. The evidence that the word “imam” is used in the general sense can be seen quite clearly when the Quran refers to “leaders (imam) of Kufr” or the other verses in the Quran that we have examined which show that either a whole group of people were made into “leaders (imam) of the pious” or that they prayed to be so.

Conclusion
We find that the Quran does not contain the Shia doctrine of Imamah. The Shia believe that after the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم), Infallible Imams and that it was the fundamental of faith to follow them and adhere to them. Where then are these Infallible Imams in the Quran? Can the Shia even provide one verse in the Quran which says something to the effect of “there will be twelve Infallible Imams after the Prophet Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم), and you must follow them”? Instead of finding a verse even vaguely similar to this, the Shia will be forced to mangle a handful of verses in the Quran just to prove that even one single Imam is mentioned in the Quran.
Indeed, the true question is this: if the Quran can use the word “imam” to mean a book, a road, and leaders of kufr…then why cannot the Quran also mention the twelve Infallible Imams? The twelve Infallible Imams are the core belief of the Shia, so then why are they not mentioned in the Quran? Surely, the only logical conclusion is that the doctrine of the twelve Infallible Imams is an innovation and deviation from the Islam of the Quran, otherwise Allah would have mentioned it in the Quran. And because Imamah is absent from the Quran, the Shia will be forced to toy around with a handful of verses that use the word “imam” albeit in a completely different context than intended by the Shia.

It is not a small part of faith to pledge allegiance to a divinely appointed leader. So surely it should be mentioned in the Quran! It is an oddity that such an important command such as to follow Imams after Prophet Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) is not worthy of being mentioned in the Quran. Indeed, this is what led some classical Shia scholars to say that the Quran has been tampered with. This is the only logical conclusion that could be made, but today you will not find any Shia who will claim this publically.

The question remains: why is there no verse in the Quran about the institution of the twelve Infallible Imams? We find Shia literature replete with references to the Imams. Indeed, the Shia have elevated the status of the Imam to monumental proportions, exhorting him as a creature that possesses more knowledge than the angels, prophets, and creation. Then how come the Quran just doesn’t say it?

Article Edited By: Ibn al-Hashimi, http://www.ahlelbayt.com

Special thanks to Abu Salih and Owais Muhammad from whom much of this article was lovingly stolen from. The book “Imaamah and the Quran: An Objective Perspective”, authored by Abu Salih, is endorsed by the Ahlel Bayt website and can be downloaded here. It was instrumental in the publication of this article and is a valuable guide for those who want a more in-depth discussion of the topic.

Adam
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#10

Unread post by Adam » Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:42 am

PORUS
Finally, I believe that if you studied Quran by yourself without accepting any authority, you would be in a far better position to defend yourself

The need for a physical authority in all ages is an Islamic concept.
فاسئلوا اهل الذكر ان كنتم لا تعلمون - thus, you need "some" sort of an authority, for what you don't know. It is wrong to take an egotistic attitude of "know it all" or, "i'll fend for myself, because i'll know what's right". If that was the case, Allah need not send any authority of Prophets at any time.

Also, you "tafseer" of Ayah al Tatheer, and it's authority as you said:
Tha hadith of 'ahl al-kisaa' is accepted by scholars of repute, both Shia and Sunni, and it is included in the the corpus of Sunni Sahih hadith.

has been refuted by ANAJMI, who follows the SUNNU version that you mentioned accepts it.

The problem today (as has been before) is the number of authorities. Everyone says "they" are correct. Fair enough. Then don't interfere in others business.

anajmi
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#11

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:25 pm

Actually, interfering in others business, as far as religion is concerned, is a god given right and infact God insists on it. Consider the example of the one person whose name you take and do non-stop maatam. What did he do? why did he interfere in others business? Actually, Humsafar has given an excellent reply to profastian on the other thread. You should read that.
The need for a physical authority in all ages is an Islamic concept.
Authority that is following Islamic principles!! And how will you know if your authority is following Islamic principles? By the kind of discussions that we have on this forum. And how do we know if a particular authority is not following Islamic principles? when the defenders of that authority cannot defend its actions anymore under Islamic principles.

Adam
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#12

Unread post by Adam » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:53 pm

ANAJMI
Authority that is following Islamic principles!!

True. My answer was to PORUS who doesn't see the need for any authority.

BUT,
Since you NOW stated you need an authority "that is follwing Islamic Principles", and since you consider yourself a "True Muslim", who is your authority?

anajmi
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#13

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:56 pm

Adam,

My authority is the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). Are you looking for a human authority? I do not give this authority to any human. However, I use many different humans to learn the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). Some of these humans live in cyberspace and some of them are real live people whose classes I attend regularly. These classes are open for anyone who wishes to attend them and are not restricted to cult members, which means that these teachers are open to scrutiny, which is exactly how it should be when you are taking the responsibility of teaching the Quran. The prophet (saw) has said that the best amongst you is the one who learns the Quran and teaches it. The Dai was my authority for many years, but my life at that time was not that of a muslim who was learning the Quran, but that of a rudaali who can bring out tears on demand. The only difference being, I wasn't getting paid.

profastian
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#14

Unread post by profastian » Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:35 am

anajmi wrote:Adam,

My authority is the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). Are you looking for a human authority? I do not give this authority to any human. However, I use many different humans to learn the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). Some of these humans live in cyberspace and some of them are real live people whose classes I attend regularly. These classes are open for anyone who wishes to attend them and are not restricted to cult members, which means that these teachers are open to scrutiny, which is exactly how it should be when you are taking the responsibility of teaching the Quran. The prophet (saw) has said that the best amongst you is the one who learns the Quran and teaches it. The Dai was my authority for many years, but my life at that time was not that of a muslim who was learning the Quran, but that of a rudaali who can bring out tears on demand. The only difference being, I wasn't getting paid.
I doubt whether you ever shed a tear...

anajmi
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#15

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:08 am

Dry eyes are better than crocodile tears. Although the prophet (saw) has said that when a person cries because of pain, it is a blessing from Allah because it alleviates his pain. The Bohras cry not to alleviate their pain, otherwise they wouldn't need to schedule a crying session on every occasion, but to follow procedure and protocol and for the sake of obedience to their idol.

porus
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#16

Unread post by porus » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:22 am

Adam wrote:The need for a physical authority in all ages is an Islamic concept.
Indeed. That is clearly a recommendation from Prophet in the Hadith of Thaqalayn. It could be argued that Prophet's words imply existence of authority from ahlul bayt, in addition to the Quran, if you need it. We are all aware of Aili ibn Abi Talib's famous words "sal:ooni, sal:ooni qabl ad tafaqqaduni".

However, authority is now splintered and the choice of authority, after you have matured, is your responsibility. I am on record as having said that I no longer accept exclusively the authority that was given to me in childhood but supplement it with 1400 years of scholarship of the Quran that is now available freely to us thanks largely to Internet.

I prefer to fend for myself but I know that I will need assistance. So, egoism is not involved here.
Adam wrote:
فاسئلوا اهل الذكر ان كنتم لا تعلمون
Here you have followed a typical Amil's practice of quoting an ayat of the Quran out of context to make an unrelated point. Ahl-e-Zikr refers to Ahl-e-kitaab in relation to confirmation of the mission of the Prophet from within their own scriptures.

(By the way these words in the Quran appear in ayats 16:43 and 21:7)
Adam wrote:
(your) "tafseer" of Ayah al Tatheer......has been refuted by ANAJMI, who follows the SUNNU version that you mentioned accepts it.
Well, anajmi is not my authority. :)

porus
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#17

Unread post by porus » Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:40 pm

porus wrote:However, authority is now splintered and the choice of authority, after you have matured, is your responsibility.
Adam,

I will add that if you accept the exclusive authority of Sayedna Taher Saifuddin than you will have no choice but to accept his interpretation of ayat 36:12.

However, it is not clear that he is the only authority. He is for you and you have made him that authority out of a fiat of your mind.

We will both agree that Sun rises in the east every day. We do not need any authority for that belief; and it is only a belief. However, it requires that you make a choice to accept an exclusive authority in matters of faith. As children, we have not developed that faculty to maturity. But as an adult, if you are a thinker, you will know that it is a volitional choice and, forever, you will need to justify that choice, at least to yourself, unless you stop thinking altogether. If you do that, you will very likely depend on, as Dostoyevsky said in his brilliant "The Brothers Karamazov", on miracles, mystery and unjustifiable exclusive authority. And that is the stuff out of which cults are created.

As far as I know, there has never been an instance where any sophisticated thinker has been able to justify his faith to others on any ground whatever except that he demonstrates his faith in living out his life in a particular way. You may follow him but your faith will be your own not his.

profastian
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#18

Unread post by profastian » Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:19 pm

porus wrote:
porus wrote:However, authority is now splintered and the choice of authority, after you have matured, is your responsibility.
Adam,

I will add that if you accept the exclusive authority of Sayedna Taher Saifuddin than you will have no choice but to accept his interpretation of ayat 36:12.

However, it is not clear that he is the only authority. He is for you and you have made him that authority out of a fiat of your mind.

We will both agree that Sun rises in the east every day. We do not need any authority for that belief; and it is only a belief. However, it requires that you make a choice to accept an exclusive authority in matters of faith. As children, we have not developed that faculty to maturity. But as an adult, if you are a thinker, you will know that it is a volitional choice and, forever, you will need to justify that choice, at least to yourself, unless you stop thinking altogether. If you do that, you will very likely depend on, as Dostoyevsky said in his brilliant "The Brothers Karamazov", on miracles, mystery and unjustifiable exclusive authority. And that is the stuff out of which cults are created.

As far as I know, there has never been an instance where any sophisticated thinker has been able to justify his faith to others on any ground whatever except that he demonstrates his faith in living out his life in a particular way. You may follow him but your faith will be your own not his.
So you cannot justify your faith either. Why meddle in ours?

Adam
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#19

Unread post by Adam » Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:14 pm

PORUS
We will both agree that Sun rises in the east every day. We do not need any authority for that belief; and it is only a belief.


You learned that fact about the sun rising in the east, from an AUTHORITY (teacher, parent). If you had left it to your own mind, and your own common sense, you would have learned nothing.

PHYSICAL HUMAN AUTHORITY is everywhere, and it is a must for each field of knowledge and faith.
Islam requires a physical authority, you can't fly solo.

Find one, and make sure he's the right one
he's the right one.

Ala maqaam
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#20

Unread post by Ala maqaam » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:22 pm

this is all bullshiit,only authority some body needs is supreme authority and it comes from Allah....

and yes respecting prophet and ahlul bayt is to show gratitude to there great life and taking lessons from there life.nothing more nothing less.

prophet and Imamain never potrait them self as a second GOD on earth,they were humble in there approach...


these are new days mullah's who are potraiting them as second god just to fill there own pockets.

anajmi
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#21

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:54 pm

PHYSICAL HUMAN AUTHORITY is everywhere, and it is a must for each field of knowledge and faith.
Yes, in many cases we need physical human authority to teach us (as in where the sun rises from). But if these physical human authorities start committing atrocities and start claiming "Sajda Mujhe Wajib Hai" and other such crap, then we should remove said authority and punish them for their misdeeds. I have learnt from many physical authorities, but none was more ridiculous than the bohra Dai and Imam!!

truebohra
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Proof of Imamat in Quran.

#22

Unread post by truebohra » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:37 am

Image

Surat 'Āli `Imrān (Family of Imran) - سورة آل عمرا
Sahih International
Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds -
Muhsin Khan
Allah chose Adam, Nuh (Noah), the family of Ibrahim (Abraham) and the family of 'Imran above the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns) (of their times).
Pickthall
Lo! Allah preferred Adam and Noah and the Family of Abraham and the Family of 'Imran above (all His) creatures.
Yusuf Ali
Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-
Shakir
Surely Allah chose Adam and Nuh and the descendants of Ibrahim and the descendants of Imran above the nations.
Dr. Ghali
Surely Allah has elected Adam and Nuh (Adam and Noah, respectively) and the house of Ibrahim (Abraham) and the house of Imran over the worlds.

Sunni Hadith :-
Wathilah ibn al-Asqa narrated the Prophet Muhammad said;
"Indeed Allah chose Isma'il from the progeny of Ibrahim, chose the Banu Kinanah over other tribes from the children of Isma'il; He chose the Banu Quraish over other tribes of Kinanah; He chose Banu Hashim over the other families of the Quraish; and He chose me from Banu Hashim."
—Related by Muslim and Tirmidhi.

Family Tree of Prophet Mohammed (SAW)
http://www.atlantajamaat.org/md_saw_family_tree.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_tree_of_Muhammad

So Allah has Chosen Imams Progeny of Ibrahhim- >Adnan -> Abd al-Muttalib > Abu Talib -> Ali -> Imams
So Allah has Chosen Imams Progeny of Ibrahhim- >Adnan -> Abd al-Muttalib > Abd' Allah- Mohammed -Fatema ->Imams

So You still have doubts?? :shock:

SBM
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#23

Unread post by SBM » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:47 am

Br. Truebohra
It is interesting that people will go to length and justify their point of view using different translations and quoting Sunni Ahdith but will not agree to the same which says that killing of Wild Animals for pleasure is not accepted. Would you accept their version where they talk about the distribution of Bait Ul Maal and living a simple life. Allah thru Quran has condemned excessive showmanship and advised his Ummah to be humble does Current Kothari Goons and their Abde Regressive supporters follow that.
Just an observation: Adam has been very good in just using pieces of Ayah to justify his views while ignoring the entire context and he has been exposed to that by Br. Porus and Br, Anajmi time and time again

truebohra
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#24

Unread post by truebohra » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:56 am

SBM wrote:Br. Truebohra
It is interesting that people will go to length and justify their point of view using different translations and quoting Sunni Ahdith but will not agree to the same which says that killing of Wild Animals for pleasure is not accepted. Would you accept their version where they talk about the distribution of Bait Ul Maal and living a simple life. Allah thru Quran has condemned excessive showmanship and advised his Ummah to be humble does Current Kothari Goons and their Abde Regressive supporters follow that.
Just an observation: Adam has been very good in just using pieces of Ayah to justify his views while ignoring the entire context and he has been exposed to that by Br. Porus and Br, Anajmi time and time again
We accept everything written in Quran to be the word of Allah Do you agree with the ayah i have presented & accept Progeny of Ibrahim are the leaders of Nation & all its creature.
It is clearly indicated who are the Leaders of this world in clear words.

truebohra
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Re: Proof of Imamat in Quran.

#25

Unread post by truebohra » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:43 pm

truebohra wrote:Image

Surat 'Āli `Imrān (Family of Imran) - سورة آل عمرا
Sahih International
Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds -
Muhsin Khan
Allah chose Adam, Nuh (Noah), the family of Ibrahim (Abraham) and the family of 'Imran above the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns) (of their times).
Pickthall
Lo! Allah preferred Adam and Noah and the Family of Abraham and the Family of 'Imran above (all His) creatures.
Yusuf Ali
Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-
Shakir
Surely Allah chose Adam and Nuh and the descendants of Ibrahim and the descendants of Imran above the nations.
Dr. Ghali
Surely Allah has elected Adam and Nuh (Adam and Noah, respectively) and the house of Ibrahim (Abraham) and the house of Imran over the worlds.

Sunni Hadith :-
Wathilah ibn al-Asqa narrated the Prophet Muhammad said;
"Indeed Allah chose Isma'il from the progeny of Ibrahim, chose the Banu Kinanah over other tribes from the children of Isma'il; He chose the Banu Quraish over other tribes of Kinanah; He chose Banu Hashim over the other families of the Quraish; and He chose me from Banu Hashim."
—Related by Muslim and Tirmidhi.

Family Tree of Prophet Mohammed (SAW)
http://www.atlantajamaat.org/md_saw_family_tree.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_tree_of_Muhammad

So Allah has Chosen Imams Progeny of Ibrahhim- >Adnan -> Abd al-Muttalib > Abu Talib -> Ali -> Imams
So Allah has Chosen Imams Progeny of Ibrahhim- >Adnan -> Abd al-Muttalib > Abd' Allah- Mohammed -Fatema ->Imams

So You still have doubts?? :shock:
All the Imam bashers are avoiding this thread & my post for obvious reasons... They are not able to digest Quranic verses on progeny of Mohammed (SAW) & Ali (SA).

SBM
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#26

Unread post by SBM » Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:23 pm

TB
No no one is avoiding unfortunately your Aamil of this forum Adam has disappeared since I asked to provide the progeny of Current Dai
I think he is in Secret Sabak.
Now in his absence can you answer the following questions
-Is current Dai, a progeny of Imam Tayyab-Imam Jaffer Us Sadiq or Ahlul Bayt
-Did Raja Bharmal or Tarmal who became Dai, progeny of Imam Tayyab-Imam Jaffer Us Sadiq or Ahlul Bayt
-Whose progeny the Imam will be? from Bharmal-Tarmal or Ahlul Bayt and there lies your problem.To identify true Imam we have to establish
the true progeny of the Dai (according to you who is going to identify the true Imam?)
-When did the Rasm of Wadhawo started?
Let us not go to Quran since it is beyond your comprehension let us start with the above and then we trace the Imamat to Quran
Take baby steps and do not jump
Let us see in absence of Adam- who is not a man enough but coward to reply if you or Progticide or Profstian can answer all these questions

truebohra
Posts: 413
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#27

Unread post by truebohra » Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:37 pm

SBM wrote:TB
No no one is avoiding unfortunately your Aamil of this forum Adam has disappeared since I asked to provide the progeny of Current Dai
I think he is in Secret Sabak.
Now in his absence can you answer the following questions
-Is current Dai, a progeny of Imam Tayyab-Imam Jaffer Us Sadiq or Ahlul Bayt
-Did Raja Bharmal or Tarmal who became Dai, progeny of Imam Tayyab-Imam Jaffer Us Sadiq or Ahlul Bayt
-Whose progeny the Imam will be? from Bharmal-Tarmal or Ahlul Bayt and there lies your problem to identify true Imam till we establish
the true progeny how would you the true Imam?
-When did the Rasm of Wadhawo started?
Let us not go to Quran since it is beyond your comprehension let us start with the above and then we trace the Imamat to Quran
Take baby steps and do not jump
Let us see in absence of Adam- who is not a man enough but coward to reply if you or Progticide or Profstian can answer all these questions
-Is current Dai, a progeny of Imam Tayyab-Imam Jaffer Us Sadiq or Ahlul Bayt
- I dont Know
-Did Raja Bharmal or Tarmal who became Dai, progeny of Imam Tayyab-Imam Jaffer Us Sadiq or Ahlul Bayt
- I dont know
-Whose progeny the Imam will be? from Bharmal-Tarmal or Ahlul Bayt and there lies your problem to identify true Imam till we establish
the true progeny how would you the true Imam? -
Imam will be from the progeny of Ahlul Bayt. Dont worry now about how we or you will recognize the Imam. Whenever Imam will zuhoor himself all the world will know.? Now dont ask ths question how? Only time will tell.
-When did the Rasm of Wadhawo started?
- I dont know but it is just a rasam from India & Indian tradition. Do you have any problem with it?

SBM
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Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#28

Unread post by SBM » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:49 pm

TB
-Is current Dai, a progeny of Imam Tayyab-Imam Jaffer Us Sadiq or Ahlul Bayt
- I dont Know
-Did Raja Bharmal or Tarmal who became Dai, progeny of Imam Tayyab-Imam Jaffer Us Sadiq or Ahlul Bayt
- I dont know
-Whose progeny the Imam will be? from Bharmal-Tarmal or Ahlul Bayt and there lies your problem to identify true Imam till we establish
the true progeny how would you the true Imam? -
Imam will be from the progeny of Ahlul Bayt. Dont worry now about how we or you will recognize the Imam. Whenever Imam will zuhoor himself all the world will know.? Now dont ask ths question how? Only time will tell.
Intresting TB
If you can not establish the progeny of current DAI or any DAI but you are sure that Imam is the progeny of Ahlul Bayt.
You also said that Dai will confirm the true Imam, if you are not even sure about Dai's progeny how do you establish that Dai will be able to recognize the true Imam?
hope Adam can give the definite answers and not be a coward


truebohra
Posts: 413
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Re: Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin

#30

Unread post by truebohra » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:46 am

Muslim First wrote:Verses 36:12 and 17:71-72
http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBay ... index.html
MF,
Please can you give us the meaning of this Ayah & what do you understand by it?
Can you deny Mohammed (SAW) & ALI (AS) & thier progeny (whom we called Imams) are not descendants of Ibrahim (AS) .

Image