Are Aga Khani's better than us?

[Qutbi-Hero]

The Aga Khan community are similar to Bhori in that too much money is sent to their leader. The Aga Khan lives a life that is even more extravagant and ostentatious than even our Kothar. He also is very westernised and has changed Islam to suit a modern lifestyle.

But at the same time the Aga Khan gives millions to benefit poor people in his community and supports many charitable foundations and is an extremely respected person around the world who does a lot of good. He is very powerful and his community is extremely successful and moving forwards every day.

I wish Bohri community was like this. Would it be such a bad thing or am I just being naive?

[hunni]

There's is a saying "grass on the other side looks to be greener then yours". But is not the reality always. The question is not how much money does aga khan donates .... its the percentage that matters.

On the other hand I studied 3 yrs in an aga khan foundation school and noticed that they are far from ISLAM, and just name sake muslims. They have a jammat khana (not a masjid) where they have regular meetings. they call it "dabba party".

But not to take credit, they do out-stand bohris in some organizational and managerial matters.

[Grayson]

Londoner,

I like your query. Certainly food for thought.

A major difference we hold from the Aga Khani's is their Imam is out and about whereas ours is still in seclusion. I believe both of our orthodox doctrine attributes infallibility to the Imam (please correct me if I'm wrong), and thus the Aga Khan puts his deen up for more public scrutiny.

They're a lot less restrictive and more liberalized compared to Dawoodi Bohras and beat us in population. He's a person who's paramounted himself well in the public eye, whereas the Dai hasn't done so without rabidly attempting to safeguard himself from criticism.

I agree with you, in that I wish Bohras were more liberal-minded and open to the world like them (from the bits I know, they seem to be a good model of progress), and perhaps over time it might be. However, issues in regards to monetary matters and specific practices will likely continue with the same gusto by those opposed to it. And they should have that right to protest as well.

As hunni says, the grass certainly may look greener on the other side, but that's because we sit on the side in which we don't see much green grass ourselves. anajmi would say it's cause the green is eaten up by Big Daddy and his progeny and it's hard to argue against that, cause from what we see in practice it appears to be true. If the Dai is more publicly involved in philanthropic matters I think it would make a big difference in the psyche of dissidents and believing skeptics such as myself.

[wise_guy]

As hunni says, the grass certainly may look greener on the other side, but that's because we sit on the side in which we don't see much green grass ourselves. anajmi would say it's cause the green is eaten up by Big Daddy and his progeny and it's hard to argue against that, cause from what we see in practice it appears to be true. If the Dai is more publicly involved in philanthropic matters I think it would make a big difference in the psyche of dissidents and believing skeptics such as myself.

Who said that the Royal family is not involved in charity work. They spend billions on charity work... The only thing is that they strongly believe in the adage 'Charity begins at home'

[Grayson]

wise_guy,

Certainly true. But I'm sure Aga Khan has similar criticisms against himself. Nepotism tends to follow royalty. But is seems he's intelligently and genuinely put a lot of wealth and effort in public good and progressive matters. Our administration could take a page out of his book, and earnestly get behind such efforts rather than advertise their excess. It would reflect well on us as people.

[wise_guy]

wise_guy,

Certainly true. But I'm sure Aga Khan has similar criticisms against himself. Nepotism tends to follow royalty. But is seems he's intelligently and genuinely put a lot of wealth and effort in public good and progressive matters. Our administration could take a page out of his book, and earnestly get behind such efforts rather than advertise their excess. It would reflect well on us as people.

on a serious note, I do know about foreign bohri students getting inayat from jamaats in US (in thousands of USD) without any condition and not because of connections/pehchaan.. So there is charity happening... Also, many die hard abdes still believe in charity.. atleast in US... For eg.. the recent solary system installations done by Rabeha Solar.. Most of the donors are based in western countries as I see the posts on zeninfosys. So, all hope is not lost...

[Qutbi-Hero]

There's is a saying "grass on the other side looks to be greener then yours". But is not the reality always. The question is not how much money does aga khan donates .... its the percentage that matters.

Yes I agree. This percentage must be quite high considering all that his foundations have accomplished. He is obviously a billionaire and so lives a billionaire lifestyle, but his money has built up over centuries and he owns many businesses. I think many people criticise him by saying he gives very little money to charity but I think in reality he probably gives away most of the money he receives.

On the other hand I studied 3 yrs in an aga khan foundation school and noticed that they are far from ISLAM, and just name sake muslims. They have a jammat khana (not a masjid) where they have regular meetings. they call it "dabba party".

They do seem to have a different understanding of Islam, but I don't consider that to mean they are far from Islam. What things make you feel they are only namesake Muslims?

But not to take credit, they do out-stand bohris in some organizational and managerial matters.

Even a retarded child could beat Bhoris in organisation and management! From what I can tell, the Aga Khanis are light years ahead of every other Muslim community in the world.

Does anybody think that our 51st Dai was watching the Aga Khan closely and decided to copy him with regards to becoming wealthy?

[ghulam muhammed]

Even though I do not subscribe to the Khoja school of thought but I give due credit to Aga Khan in the manner in which he takes care of his followers. Khojas are a united lot unlike bohras and help their brothers in faith immensely, if any khoja decides to migrate to a foreign country then he is given all help including finance especially in countries like Canada and Africa. The Aga Khan controlled DCB Bank also gives special privileges to Khojas. I remember attending the wedding reception of the daughter of my friend's office clerk who happened to be a Khoja wherein the entire event was taken care of by the Khoja trust, they even gave the daughter 7 pair of expensive clothes and 2 sets of gold jewellery besides taking care of the food.

During the 2002 Gujarat mass genocide, Aga Khan through his contacts was personally responsible for the safety of his followers in Gujarat barring a few places. Even in Surat a special posse of police party was stationed near the Karimabad society due to which there was NOT a single incident of arson and rioting. And the beauty of it was that he refused to lick Modi's a@@se unlike the bohra Dai. This clearly shows the ACTUAL reason of the Dai getting pally with Modi as he did this ONLY to safeguard his vast estates and various bohra dargahs which provide him a steady and huge cash flow whereas Aga Khan's ONLY concern was the safety of his followers.

[seeker110]

Mola na lakhoon karam ane ehsan chei. I don't have any proof but there are some pictures with crooked politicians, his own family, many public officials in various poor countries. Please don't forget the game warden.

Remember the truck load of clothes, shoes and money envelopes for the poor on Eid . What about our biggest Saify/Burhani Research Center of Sciences and Arts Technology. Our library in every corner of the world.

You guys are Mola haters, you think Mola only gave you Rida, Saya and dadhi. What about phook nu pani for all your ailments. Now do shukar na sajda so he can get you from behind.

[Qutbi-Hero]

I don't hate Molla. I hate Kothar.

[salim]

Education - Aga khan should get credit for creating educational awareness among Ismailis. Every community is more educated than before, but i feel Ismailis have taken a big jump. Aga khan was able to convince Ismailis that education is not only important for worldly matters but it is also important for your deen. This made the community more progressive. Actually this was the best way to make an orthodox more progressive. All those abdes who were so strict in following deen, send their kids to universities and the new generation become less orthodox and more progressive. Aga khan being progressive himself, this helped him make Ismailis more united. Of-course this helped community financially as well. Plus opened their mind for service to mankind. It opened their mind for other cultures and religions as well. And they started learning from others. His Emphasis on giving girls more education helped the community as well. Today a Masters degree has become norm. There are so many PHDs, specially in west. Every student who has financial problem, gets grants and loans to go to school. Being progressive we strongly believe in no child left behind.

Family Support - Ismailis were able to create good support and healthy life style for seniors. Economically challenged seniors are given insurance at low or no cost. Youths are motivated to save for their future. Family of new born ismaili gets two bank accounts one for school savings and one for retirements with a nominal funds in them from Jamat as a gift. This motivates every family to save for their future. Families are motivated to take insurance for their kids. Economically challenged families are given insurance at low cost.

Business - Aga Khan has his own business. He is not dependent on donations from ismailis. In many philanthropic programs he is one of the top donors. He does not pay his family members from the donation collected from Jamat. The organizations are improved a lot over time and they have become great support to not only ismailis but also to many of their non-ismaili neighbors. If you look at the numbers, today ismaili organizations help 12 times more to non-ismailis than to ismailis. And ismailis feel proud about it. I am not sure how long that can be sustained.

I think any community that promotes education becomes better eventually. Rest of the progress is just side effect of education.

[ammar786]

Education - Aga khan was able to convince Ismailis that education is not only important for worldly matters but it is also important for your deen.

which deen are you talking about bro??
enjoying dabba party??

If you ask them the name of our prophet (s.w.a),they would just wonder. who is prophet?? etc

ask there children about namaz, they want be able to answer a single word about it.
and you are saying that he considers it important for there deen.

They never go for haj nor they are aware what is it.

he just manages his community in worldly affairs.

[JC]

Ammar,

Just want to remind one thing - the concept of Imamat is same for all Shia ....... that is true for Aga Khanis and Bohras, correct? The belief is Imam is the Lord and you have to obey him without any question and resistance. correct? And hence same is true for Dai when Imam is not around, correct?

So basically what Aga Khani people are doing is just FOLLOWING 'THE IMAM' without any question or resistance. So to conclude if they do not know the name of Prophet, do not how to pray namaz or Hajj etc, WHO is to be blamed??

Do not you all abde Bohras 'blindly' follow what comes from so-called Dai??? Day in and day out are the Farmans even though Dai is coma since long.

Think ..!!

[salim]

which deen are you talking about bro??
enjoying dabba party??

Swear to God, I have never heard of the word "Dabba Party". I think this person is getting confused Ismailis with someone else. Not that there is anything wrong in having party.

If you ask them the name of our prophet (s.w.a),they would just wonder. who is prophet?? etc
ask there children about namaz, they want be able to answer a single word about it.
and you are saying that he considers it important for there deen.
They never go for haj nor they are aware what is it.
he just manages his community in worldly affairs.

If this is the case then why ismaili children have so much education about Quran and Islam, when compared to any average Muslim? I know there is very small percentage still who do not take religious education, but over all most of the ismailis are very well educated. Also we ismailis do not believe in compulsion in religion. If a parent thinks that they don't need their children to take religious education then, it is their decision. Why should we force them. The percentage of chinese ismailis taking religious education is less, but that is because of communist government in china. In China this is true for all other religions as well

[ammar786]

Ammar,

Just want to remind one thing - the concept of Imamat is same for all Shia ....... that is true for Aga Khanis and Bohras, correct? The belief is Imam is the Lord and you have to obey him without any question and resistance. correct? And hence same is true for Dai when Imam is not around, correct?

So basically what Aga Khani people are doing is just FOLLOWING 'THE IMAM' without any question or resistance. So to conclude if they do not know the name of Prophet, do not how to pray namaz or Hajj etc, WHO is to be blamed??

Do not you all abde Bohras 'blindly' follow what comes from so-called Dai??? Day in and day out are the Farmans even though Dai is coma since long.

Think ..!!

actually bro jc,

you are trying to mould whole topic, here we are talking about aga khanis.

and if you are comparing us with them then i would like to say that we people pray namaz, quran and even go for hajj.

so its better you think about that.

[ammar786]

Swear to God, I have never heard of the word "Dabba Party". I think this person is getting confused Ismailis with someone else. Not that there is anything wrong in having party.

if you have never heard about that, than i guess you are not ismaili or even your parents thought that deeni education is not important for you

If this is the case then why ismaili children have so much education about Quran and Islam, when compared to any average Muslim? I know there is very small percentage still who do not take religious education, but over all most of the ismailis are very well educated. Also we ismailis do not believe in compulsion in religion. If a parent thinks that they don't need their children to take religious education then, it is their decision. Why should we force them. The percentage of chinese ismailis taking religious education is less, but that is because of communist government in china. In China this is true for all other religions as well

bro its totally baseless arguement, you, me and whole world knows that you are far away from islam and its practices.

you people dont have to do roza in ramadan but you people enjoy eid.
you dont have masjid like other muslim but you have khana were you people go with tiffin

and according to which survey you say that your children have more education about islam ???

[seeker110]

Br Amar wrote"and if you are comparing us with them then i would like to say that we people pray namaz, quran and even go for hajj."

We always pray in namaz 2 rakats for Dai's long life, even though we believe that nobody can pass on the day of ones death.

We also are forbidden to read translation of the Quran

We do our own deeni things as dictated by Dai for hajj. Unlike the intended gathering of all Muslims.

[salim]

Bro Ammar786,

and according to which survey you say that your children have more education about islam ???

You gave me your opinion. And when i gave my opinion to you, you want it to be supported by a survey. I do not have a survey that exactly proves my opinion. But I do have a survay that supports my point a little. I do know that on an average ismaili students invests around 3-8 hrs a week in understanding Quran, Islam, other religions, philosophies, etc. This is an average Ismaili. A ismaili who is taking his major as religion does invest a lot more hrs. These ismaili students are exposed to different cultures and religions as well. So we do not teach only ismaili theology. We let them explore everything. I know this does not prove anything because, the other part of my argument comes from my experience, that most of my Muslims friends who are not ismailis did not invest this much of time every week religiously. And I may be wrong in generalizing.

if you have never heard about that, than i guess you are not ismaili or even your parents thought that deeni education is not important for you

This is not true. I am an ismaili and there is nothing like Debba whatever. Either there is a confusion here or someone just created this word, or this is an internal joke of a 5 member friends group which rest of the ismilis are not aware of.

We ismilis believe that we are following true Islam. We may not follow your version of interpretation of islam, but we follow what we think is Islam. As a Ismaili I can't say that my version is the only correct version of Islam.

I am here to not prove that I am better than you. The only point I am trying to make here is, if a community invests in education and takes care of their children and seniors, the community grows automatically. There is no magic in it.

[seeker110]

Amar Bhai, tell him about all the mojeza's of our Dai has done for us.

[Qutbi-Hero]

It's good to have an Ismaili on the forum - Shias are most welcome Brother Salim.

Does the Aga Khani community have any divisions like the Bohra community?

[salim]

Thank you DB-Londoner.
Yes, Ismailis do have divisions. There are all kind of ismailis. ismailis argue among themselves as much as they argue with others for same matters. Broadly you can divide the ismailis into
1. Ismailis who are inclined to Shia Ithnasary interpretation
2. ismailis who are inclined to Suni interpretation (more mederate version of sunni islam)
3. Ismailis who are inclined to ismaili khoja interpretation
4. Ismailis who are inclined to Sufi interpretation
5. Ismailis who are agnostics and believe ismailis more as a culture and less as a religion.
6. Ismailis who are inclined towards fatimid interpretation - which is again a fixture of all the above. majority belongs to this group

Lately Ismaili koja interpretation is fading away, as it was mostly derived from combination of Hinduism and Islam and adopted to save ismailis from cruel Muslim rulers like Aurangzeb, so that they can survive in Hindu culture. Now ismailis have no threat, so they are adopting one of the other 5 interpretations. Since Bohras are from Indo-pak, they mostly are aware of only Ismailis with khoja interpretation. When the current aga khan started his term, Ismaili khoja use to touch the feet of Aga Khan, which is now discontinued. Likewise tons of Hindu rituals are being discontinued slowly.

Ismailism is very diverse. Even though diverse, ismailis are fairly united, the institution is mostly made up of progressive ismailis. So no one interpretation is promoted with an iron fist. And no one is left behind.

We belive , the orthodox way of growth starts fast, but the progressive way of growth last longer. Orthodox are ok leaving a small percentage behind, but progressive can't do that. Ismailis being so diverse orthodoxy will not be successful. So we fight a lot, we argue a lot, but we also believe that we may not agree with other ismailis, but at the end, the goal is to get your soul close to Allah and help the mankind in whatever way possible. This two things are basic for all Ismailis regardless of what they follow.

[salim]

the institution is mostly made up of progressive ismailis. So no one interpretation is promoted with an iron fist. And no one is left behind.

No one is left behind is more exaggeration. There are still people who feel that they are left behind. But the intention is to not leave anyone behind and to take extra measures to make sure everyone gets equal rights

[Qutbi-Hero]

Brother Salim, hope you don't mind more questions!

What is the money situation like in your community? How much do you have to pay and is it demanded by force? If people don't pay then what happens?

Do you have a huge 'Royal Family' who are everywhere and control everything? How are things like marriages and funerals handled?

Is it true that you are allowed to drink and smoke and have pre-marital sex etc? What is the reasoning behind Namaaz and Hajj and Hijab etc being discontinued?

Do you have any idea who will be the next Aga Khan? Is there any kind of conflict over who it will be?

[badrijanab]

Salim sahib,

One simple question from my side also: Janab Agha Khan sahib (contender for the post of Fatimi Imam) and his family - what do they do to EARN their bread and butter, does they earn their expenditure?

[Bohra spring]

Thank you DB-Londoner.
Yes, Ismailis do have divisions. There are all kind of ismailis. ismailis argue among themselves as much as they argue with others for same matters. Broadly you can divide the ismailis into
1. Ismailis who are inclined to Shia Ithnasary interpretation
2. ismailis who are inclined to Suni interpretation (more mederate version of sunni islam)
3. Ismailis who are inclined to ismaili khoja interpretation
4. Ismailis who are inclined to Sufi interpretation
5. Ismailis who are agnostics and believe ismailis more as a culture and less as a religion.
6. Ismailis who are inclined towards fatimid interpretation - which is again a fixture of all the above. majority belongs to this group

Lately Ismaili koja interpretation is fading away, as it was mostly derived from combination of Hinduism and Islam and adopted to save ismailis from cruel Muslim rulers like Aurangzeb, so that they can survive in Hindu culture. Now ismailis have no threat, so they are adopting one of the other 5 interpretations. Since Bohras are from Indo-pak, they mostly are aware of only Ismailis with khoja interpretation. When the current aga khan started his term, Ismaili khoja use to touch the feet of Aga Khan, which is now discontinued. Likewise tons of Hindu rituals are being discontinued slowly.

Ismailism is very diverse. Even though diverse, ismailis are fairly united, the institution is mostly made up of progressive ismailis. So no one interpretation is promoted with an iron fist. And no one is left behind.

We belive , the orthodox way of growth starts fast, but the progressive way of growth last longer. Orthodox are ok leaving a small percentage behind, but progressive can't do that. Ismailis being so diverse orthodoxy will not be successful. So we fight a lot, we argue a lot, but we also believe that we may not agree with other ismailis, but at the end, the goal is to get your soul close to Allah and help the mankind in whatever way possible. This two things are basic for all Ismailis regardless of what they follow.

This is what bohras will be in 2025 ? We can be hopeful

[seeker110]

Agha Khan is an educated person. He indulges in businesses that he himself owns and partially by other Aghakhani's. Whenever he approves on a scheme to improve his lot and others, he puts in substantial donation himself. These businesses are run by professional Agha Khani's and others. This ensures employment and better life for the Agha Khani believers. Mullagiri is kept away from such investments.

You can watch his interview with a major news chain happened a while back. Make your own decisions. No need for hearsay and adawat.
I certainly wish for a leader like him. By the way their labrez shadi jaman consists of Ghathia and sherbat.

[salim]

Brother Salim, hope you don't mind more questions!

What is the money situation like in your community? How much do you have to pay and is it demanded by force? If people don't pay then what happens?

Everything is Voluntarily given. No Force and no compulsion at all. We believe that giving is also a need. Giving is human nature. You will hardly see any human-being who will not give after they achieve it. Everybody gives in one form or other. I do give every month a portion of my income to poor via some institutional project. I want give back because I was beneficiary once. I still remember the days, when I use to live in a village. There was no toilet in our apartment. There were 4 common toilets shared by 20+ families. And in morning kids are not allowed to use it, we use to go to bushes. My education was paid by Aga Khan Institute. I have a masters degree. I got help in starting my own company as well. My parents were not educated, but we had Aga Khan education board that use to guide us. Aga Khan Economic planning board helped my dad to start business and he did not bad. When my bad had an hear attack, Aga Khan health Board was there to take care of him and the family. At one time my parents use to struggle to make $1 a day and now we are economically very strong. Now why we should we not give back.

Whenever anyone feels like giving, they give whatever they want. They give it as a check or in an envelope which is mixed with all other envelopes so that no one know who gave what. Our grand parents use to say that we should give 12-13% of the savings. I have a friend he comes and attends every ceremony but has not given a single penny in last 7 years and no one knows it. He is my friend, last month he told me that he and his family did not contribute a single penny in last 7 years, but now he is settled so he want to start contributing. How much a person wants to give is between Allah and him, no one else should interfere.

Do you have a huge 'Royal Family' who are everywhere and control everything? How are things like marriages and funerals handled?

Royal family do contribute, but they don't get paid for their work. Rather they give donation and free service. Family members of Aga Khan do not have any big value. We believe that Aga Khans family has nothing to do with Imamat. Aga Khan's relation with his family is physical relationship, but murids relationship is spritual. Two very different level. Ismailis are bound to Aga Khan not his family. So his family while respected, have zero control over Jamat. Aga Khan is spritual father for all Ismailis.

We have a revolving door system, No contracts, no promises. if a person don't like he can leave. And in future if he thinks that he wants to come back, he is always welcomed. No question asked.

Is it true that you are allowed to drink and smoke and have pre-marital sex etc? What is the reasoning behind Namaaz and Hajj and Hijab etc being discontinued?

We are not allowed to drink and smoke. pre-marital sex is not appreciated. I have never smoke or drunk in my life. My Dad has 6 brothers and 3 sisters and they have their children and grand children, so that way we have pretty huge family. In this huge family I only know 3 people who drink. That is around 2%.

There are a lot of initiatives that Jamat takes to make sure that kids don't start drinking and smoking. This start from early childhood. In west, there are ismailis who drinks, but this is true for any community that lives in west. Jamat is trying hard to stop this, but they are not always sucessfull. There are many initiatives from Aga khan to make sure kids to get into anti-social habits, that hurts family emotionally, medically and financially.

Every time when Aga Khan comes to US, I have seen him asking youth to stay away from these anti-social habits. There are many seminars, counselling, etc happens in every town were there are ismailis.

Hajj: - We do perform Hujj. My parents last year did perfom Hujj. Some ismailis feel that they should spend their money in bring their family our of pooverty and think of going to Hujj. For Namaz, Khoja Ismailis

Namaz: - Ismailis pray Namaz. Khoja Ismailis pray Dua (phrases from Quran plus duas) . To save themselves from fundamentalist, pirs of past made them do dua. Aga Khan is trying to make Namaz uniform to all ismailis. He has been successful at some places. But there are some khoja ismailis who are resisting. They argue that, the important thing is to remember Allah. There is no where in quran it says what one should say in Namaz. Quan is not even clear in letting people exact what time they should pray. Since we do not believe in force, we will take it a little slow. Khoja Ismailis are planning to open a Mosque in Houston where they are going to do Namaz. And it will be open to all ismailis and non-ismailis. So things are improving.

Do you have any idea who will be the next Aga Khan? Is there any kind of conflict over who it will be?

No one know who will be the next Imam. We only know that he should be from the progeny current Imam. I hope next Imam will be as good as him.

[salim]

Salim sahib,

One simple question from my side also: Janab Agha Khan sahib (contender for the post of Fatimi Imam) and his family - what do they do to EARN their bread and butter, does they earn their expenditure?

Aga khan has his own huge business. He does not take any money from Ismailis. He is one of the biggest Donner to ismaili foundations. His brothers and sisters have their own businesses. They do not interfere in religious matter. His brother recently donated a huge sum and some great artefacts for Aga Khan Museum. He has 3 sons and one daughter. They do help their dad with some charity work, in terms of control, they do not have any control over the community. If one day one will become Imam, then he will have control. Currently they do take some leadership positions in some charity works. They do also help their dad in his personal business.

[salim]

I think both Aga Khanis and Bohras have a lot of simillar things and we both can learn from one another.

[Qutbi-Hero]

I think both Aga Khanis and Bohras have a lot of simillar things and we both can learn from one another.

I agree! It's a great shame there was a split all those years ago, maybe a miracle will happen and the Ismailis and Bohras will merge in to one community again lol.

How do you feel about the Aga Khan getting divorced and the fact his father was a playboy etc?

Do Ismailis complain that he could use more money for charitable work instead of spending it on private jets and personal mansions etc?

Do Ismailis get to meet the Aga Khan very often? Is there always a big fuss made over him and a big entourage which asks people for money to see him?

Do you know how large the Ismaili community is worldwide? Are there many poor Ismailis anywhere?