No forgiveness without intercession

[humanbeing]

In recent Sabak-Bayan during Ramadan, the preacher sent from Kothar to Kuwait Jamat narrated the bayan regarding forgiveness of sins only through appointed intercessors.

Bayan began with examples from times of prophet muhammad and was then related to present day situation. Summary of the bayan was that; No sins can be forgiven by Allah if the “Dai” does not forgive or accept one’s repentance.

Does Bohra Doctrine inculcate this philosophy ?

[LionHunter]

Quraan repeatedly says only ALLAH is able to forgive sins.

and its a matter between banda and his khuda, he might need intercession and he might not.

[Al Zulfiqar]

No sins can be forgiven by Allah if the “Dai” does not forgive or accept one’s repentance.

and what if the dai himself commits grievious sins? the dai is just another human being.

[Adam]

This is about the concept of Shafa'at (intercession), in which the Sunnis, Shias (Bohras included) believe in. The Wahhabis oppose this belief.
Each of the two mentioned believe their "leaders" will intercede. The Sunnis believe the Prophets and Rasullullah will, and the Shias believe the Panjatan, Imams (also Dais for Bohras) will intercede.

Ayat al Kursi
مَن ذَا ٱلَّذِى يَشْفَعُ عِندَهُۥٓ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِهِۦ 2|255
Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? (Ie, only those who have permission to intercede can intercede, each sect believe their leaders are these chosen people)


21|26|وَقَالُوا۟ ٱتَّخَذَ ٱلرَّحْمَٰنُ وَلَدًۭا ۗ سُبْحَٰنَهُۥ ۚ بَلْ عِبَادٌۭ مُّكْرَمُونَ
21|27|لَا يَسْبِقُونَهُۥ بِٱلْقَوْلِ وَهُم بِأَمْرِهِۦ يَعْمَلُونَ
21|28|يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلَا يَشْفَعُونَ إِلَّا لِمَنِ ٱرْتَضَىٰ وَهُم مِّنْ خَشْيَتِهِۦ مُشْفِقُونَ
[21:26]
And they say: "(God) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! they are (but) servants raised to honour.
[21:27]
They speak not before He speaks, and they act (in all things) by His Command.
[21:28]
He knows what is before them, and what is behind them, and they offer no intercession except for those who are acceptable, and they stand in awe and reverence of His (Glory).

The above two ayats explain that Shafa'at (intercedence) is for a "Special" few. It is up to interpretation of each sect of Islam as to WHOM these people are.

In books such as Daim ul Islam, it quotes Imam Jafar al Sadiq, where he explains that the Imam will intercede between the man and Prophet, and the Prophet will intercede between Allah. Hence the Dai will intercede between Man and the Imam, and so on.

This is Dawoodi Bohra belief.

[wise_guy]

In recent Sabak-Bayan during Ramadan, the preacher sent from Kothar to Kuwait Jamat narrated the bayan regarding forgiveness of sins only through appointed intercessors.

Bayan began with examples from times of prophet muhammad and was then related to present day situation. Summary of the bayan was that; No sins can be forgiven by Allah if the “Dai” does not forgive or accept one’s repentance.

Does Bohra Doctrine inculcate this philosophy ?

Majority of kuwait abdes are sparsely educated blue collar workers while few of them have made it big in business but still remain uneducated... Its easy to dole them out such stuff... If only kuwaiti government was not so strict, there would have been a permanent bhai saheb stationed in kuwait.. At present, the bhai sahebs n progeny visit there frequently for obvious reasons. Kuwait is a huge watering hole for kothar and can be considered one of the biggest revenue generator of Kothar Inc.

[humanbeing]

@Adam : Thanks for responding.

My question is : No sins can be forgiven by Allah if the “Dai” does not forgive or accept one’s repentance ?

[humanbeing]

there would have been a permanent bhai saheb stationed in kuwait...

WG
There is a permanent Central Amil with many subordinate Amils stationed in Kuwait since many decades. Kuwait comparatively is friendly state to Bohras along with other GCC except KSA.
@ Adam
I understand the idea of Intercession differently, it may be influenced from many school of thought/ books or purely common sense. I have attended few sabaks regarding Shafaa’at concept. Without getting into judgement, I would like to explore other various outlooks.

[badrijanab]

This is about the concept of Shafa'at (intercession), in which the Sunnis, Shias (Bohras included) believe in. The Wahhabis oppose this belief.
Each of the two mentioned believe their "leaders" will intercede. The Sunnis believe the Prophets and Rasullullah will, and the Shias believe the Panjatan, Imams (also Dais for Bohras) will intercede.

Ayat al Kursi
مَن ذَا ٱلَّذِى يَشْفَعُ عِندَهُۥٓ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِهِۦ 2|255
Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? (Ie, only those who have permission to intercede can intercede, each sect believe their leaders are these chosen people)


21|26|وَقَالُوا۟ ٱتَّخَذَ ٱلرَّحْمَٰنُ وَلَدًۭا ۗ سُبْحَٰنَهُۥ ۚ بَلْ عِبَادٌۭ مُّكْرَمُونَ
21|27|لَا يَسْبِقُونَهُۥ بِٱلْقَوْلِ وَهُم بِأَمْرِهِۦ يَعْمَلُونَ
21|28|يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلَا يَشْفَعُونَ إِلَّا لِمَنِ ٱرْتَضَىٰ وَهُم مِّنْ خَشْيَتِهِۦ مُشْفِقُونَ
[21:26]
And they say: "(God) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! they are (but) servants raised to honour.
[21:27]
They speak not before He speaks, and they act (in all things) by His Command.
[21:28]
He knows what is before them, and what is behind them, and they offer no intercession except for those who are acceptable, and they stand in awe and reverence of His (Glory).

The above two ayats explain that Shafa'at (intercedence) is for a "Special" few. It is up to interpretation of each sect of Islam as to WHOM these people are.

In books such as Daim ul Islam, it quotes Imam Jafar al Sadiq, where he explains that the Imam will intercede between the man and Prophet, and the Prophet will intercede between Allah. Hence the Dai will intercede between Man and the Imam, and so on.

This is Dawoodi Bohra belief.

(1) The red bold underlined text above refers: Concentrate on Adam's last paragraph, he writes that Daim ul Islam says, "Imam will intercede between man and Prophet" = work done, man got benefit of intercession from Imam to reach to Prophet and then to Allah.

Adam (Kothar agent) uses word "Hence the Dai will intercede between Man and the Imam" - this quoted illogical text is not in Daim ul Islam - it is biddat (invention / fabrication) by Kothar to fool common Bohra mumineen!!! When Daim ul Islam says, Imam will intercede between "Man" and "Prophet" - then their is NO role of Dai in this equation.

Prove if any rightful Dai Mutlaq from 1st till 46th have preached per your false and misguided biddat (marked in red text above)? You cannot, you are lier.

(2) Sajda are of two types - one to Allah and second to auliya-Allah but the position (gesture) of Sajda are different. The objection is Burhanuddin sahib make their followers to do Sajda like the one offered to Allah!

[porus]

In books such as Daim ul Islam, it quotes Imam Jafar al Sadiq, where he explains that the Imam will intercede between the man and Prophet, and the Prophet will intercede between Allah. Hence the Dai will intercede between Man and the Imam, and so on.

This is Dawoodi Bohra belief.

Adam/Badrijanab,

Could you please provide the chapter/paragraph reference to the above quote from Imam Jafar al-Sadiq? Thank you.

Even if there is such a statement in the Da'aaim, it still does not follow that the permission for intercession will extend to a Dai.

[Al Zulfiqar]

No sins can be forgiven by Allah if the “Dai” does not forgive or accept one’s repentance.

and what if the dai himself commits grievous sins? the dai is just another normal human being.

adam, answer my question. its all very well quoting daimul islam, but does it say anywhere about dai being infallible? we have proven hundreds of times on this forum that the last 2 dai's especially, have committed many crimes and sins and encourage shirk. do you think allah will accept intercession from a sinner, no matter what his position?

[porus]

In their prayers Bohras use these words in 'allahumma rabbad-daawatit-tamma' after iqamat and also in 'nano tashahud' after the first two rakaat in fard namaaz.

"wa taqabbal shafaata-hu fi ummati-hi".

They ask Allah to accept intercession from Prophet. This is based on a hadith from Prophet.

Dua taqarrub is the only dua after fard where nearness to Imams is solicited. There is no mention of 'intercession' by Imams in it.

[Adam]

First accept the concept of Shafa'at.
Note: The Arabic word Shafa'at, Waseela, Najat and the Lisan Dawat words like "parhami lewu", behre shafa'at = intercedence. They are all synonymous. And basically mean way to Allah.

Shafa'at is a Link towards Allah.
Allah < Every Rasool via a Rasool < Imam Via Imam < Dai via Dai < Man

Do you belive that the Prophets and Imams are one of the people that can do Shafa'at? As mentioned in context of the Quran?

IF your answer is No, then stop reading.

If yes, then Daim ul Islam has your answer.
@PORUS:
One famous quote from Imam Sadiq is:
*عن أبي عبدالله الصادق (عليه السلام) انه قال : إن الله أباح لمحمد الشفاعه في أمته , (وأعطانا الشفاعة في شيعتنا ), وإن لشيعتنا الشفاعة في أهاليهم ,وإليه الاشارة بقوله : (فَمَا لنَا مِن شاَفِعيِنَ) قال (والله لنشفعن في شيعتنا, حتى يقول أعداؤنا) : (فَمَا لنَا مِن شاَفِعيِنَ) ثم قال : والله ليشفعن شيعتنا في أهاليهم حتى تقول شيعة أعداءنا : (ولاَ صَدِقٍ حَمِيم)..
"Allah has given the right to Mohammed to do Shafa'at in his Ummat, and given us Shafa'at for our Shias"
"By God/Allah we will do Shafa'at for our Shias"

P.S @ PORUS - The Dua of Taqarrub also mentioned the Imams and explicitly mentions that they are the WASEELA towards Allah: The words are"والوسائل اليك" mentioned in the Dua
-----------------------------------

-----------------------------------
@BadriJanab

Adam (Kothar agent) uses word "Hence the Dai will intercede between Man and the Imam" - this quoted illogical text is not in Daim ul Islam - it is biddat (invention / fabrication) by Kothar to fool common Bohra mumineen!!! When Daim ul Islam says, Imam will intercede between "Man" and "Prophet" - then their is NO role of Dai in this equation.
Prove if any rightful Dai Mutlaq from 1st till 46th have preached per your false and misguided biddat (marked in red text above)? You cannot, you are lier.

1. The Dai al Satr is in the place of the Imam, thus he too will do Shafat of his people. If you do not accept this role of the Dai, then you will never accept the concept of Shaf'at/Vaseela etc. (Stop reading here)

2. Some TEXTS before 46th Dai:
(You don't need to look to much further into complicated, non-reachable texts, just the history of Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin is enough.

3A) Read Muntaza al Akhbar, CHAPTER Syedna Yusuf Najmuddin (42nd Dai), just before his death, it describes how he did Dua, and said DUATS (named them one after the other) will do Shafa'at.
3B) Before Syedna Yusuf Najmuddin (42nd Dai) death, Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin comes to Syedna Yusuf and does araz of Zakat to him, a prays to him for Istighfar & SHAFA'AT. (Muntaza al Akhbar, CHAPTER Syedna Yusuf Najmuddin (42nd Dai)
3C) Read the Qasidas of Syedna Ali bin Mohammed (5th Dai) in Madeh of Syedna Hatim, where he prays to him "to do shafa'at and save/take us out his from this material world"
3D) Read Syedi Sadiq Ali Sahebs Naseehats:

(From The famous "Ghar mara Jism")
Saabiq na je logo che, khaliq ni wala andar
te sab no WASEELO LAI aa Sadiq Ali Muztar
Te baad jhukawi sar, moula na na qadamo par ---- (P.S this will also refute your bowing to the feet of the Dai query)
Em Araz kare che ye, eh Abdeali Sarwar!
REHMAT NA SAMANDAR CHO, altaaf ne farmawo
(Translation: I take the Waseela of the people of the past (Imams), and the Dai of my time - Syedna Abdeali)

Another one explicitly about Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin RA (in the 13th Naseehat) from the Nasihat "Nathi baqi magar Yaro Khuda che"
... talking about Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin
اككر صادق علي ححاهسس سعادة انسس دارين نا اندر حماية
كري نسس دل ما تو اهني ولاية طلب كر تو يه مولى ني شفاعة
Agar Sadiq ali Chaahe Sa'adat
Ane Dareyn (world and hereafter) na andar himayat (protection)
kari ne dil ma tu ehni WALAYAT
Talab kar tu YE MOULA ni SHAFA'AT
(If you want Sa'dat, protection in this world and in the hereafter, do Walayat of this Moula and ASK FOR HIS SHAFA'AT

3E)
The Dua in the Hafti after the Fajar Duas, where we take the names of all the Dais, in the last 3 lines it says:
و اجعلهم لديك شفعاءنا
(And make them (the Duats) our SHOFO'AA - Plural of Shafee' (one who does Shafa'at)

There you go.
Evidence from not too long ago.

P.M me when you have a better answer.

[porus]

As long as we understand that no one can intercede for you except with Allah's permission, then I do not see why anyone could not be chosen by you to do it for you.

To wish or pray for anyone to be your intercessor is fine. We do not now know who has the permission to intercede as expressly stated in the Quran. If Prophet has been mentioned, then could someone point out the relevant ayat.

I believe that there is a hadith in which Prophet has said that he will be the intercessor. But where is it in the Quran?

[porus]

I have understood that the difference between intercession and waseela is that the intercession is for the Day of Judgment. Waseela is for you to utilize before you meet your Maker.

I would choose as a waseela from among those described in 4:69. It is your call as to who, apart from Ahlul Bayt, fits the bill.

"And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger - those will be with the ones upon whom Allah has bestowed favor of the prophets, the steadfast affirmers of truth, the martyrs and the righteous. And excellent are those as companions."

[4:69 Sahih International Translation]

[porus]

To wish or pray for anyone to be your intercessor is fine. We do not now know who has the permission to intercede as expressly stated in the Quran. If Prophet has been mentioned, then could someone point out the relevant ayat.

I believe that there is a hadith in which Prophet has said that he will be the intercessor. But where is it in the Quran?

In ayat 4:64, Allah tells Muhammad that if he prayed for repentant sinners, Allah will listen to him.

"And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah. And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful."

[4:64 Sahih International Translation]

[Adam]

To wish or pray for anyone to be your intercessor is fine. We do not now know who has the permission to intercede as expressly stated in the Quran. If Prophet has been mentioned, then could someone point out the relevant ayat.

I believe that there is a hadith in which Prophet has said that he will be the intercessor. But where is it in the Quran?

In ayat 4:64, Allah tells Muhammad that if he prayed for repentant sinners, Allah will listen to him.

"And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah. And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful."

[4:64 Sahih International Translation]

Correct. The above is a type of SHAFA'AT.

Ayat 21|28| talks about the SHOFOA' in PLURAL (there are more than one).
We Dawoodi Bohras, according to our texts and teachings believe this shafa'at extends to Imams (Daim ul Islam) and Dai al Satr (quoted above).

[badrijanab]

I consulted with an honest and highly knowledgeable Dawoodi Bohra mumin he told me not only Wasila of Dai Mutlaq is allowed but also wasila of "nek mumin" is allowed.

"Shafaat" and "Wasila" has one basic difference - former is specifically for day of judgement and later also covers our day to day affairs.

Should wasila be taken of that man who claim to be pious but cruise in Elizabeth Ship where almost naked women serve alcohol?

[Adam]

I consulted with an honest and highly knowledgeable Dawoodi Bohra mumin he told me not only Wasila of Dai Mutlaq is allowed but also wasila of "nek mumin" is allowed.
l?

I'm not sure about the "Nek Mumin" part.

But I do know that the Duat al Satr will do Shafa'at.
As to your query:

Adam (Kothar agent) uses word "Hence the Dai will intercede between Man and the Imam" - this quoted illogical text is not in Daim ul Islam - it is biddat (invention / fabrication) by Kothar to fool common Bohra mumineen!!! When Daim ul Islam says, Imam will intercede between "Man" and "Prophet" - then their is NO role of Dai in this equation.
Prove if any rightful Dai Mutlaq from 1st till 46th have preached per your false and misguided biddat (marked in red text above)? You cannot, you are lier.

I have answered you above in detail. Duat before 46th are Shofoa' according to TRUE DB beliefs.

[humanbeing]

So as per DB belief, Dai will intercede between Imam and Man,

Dai of every Zaman will intercede for its people ? or is it that, anyone who believe in Dai’s office and its occupant ( irrespective of Zaman) can be applied ?

How does consultation of Sins of each and every Bohra handled through chain of intercessors starting from Man-Dai-Imam-Prophet-Allah !

Furthermore, I heard in the bayan, that as Dai is duly appointed by Imam, further Amils (raza-na-saheb) are duly appointed by Dai to intercede between Man and Dai. So does the above link of intercessors expand to following :

Man-Amil-Dai-Imam-Prophet-Allah ?

Further to your awaited response on Forgiveness of Sin by intercessors : This concept of Shafaa’at plays a big role in bohra life. As majority of bohras are chained psychologically with this fear / attachment of having their sin forgiven through intercessors only. This dependence makes bohra vulnerable to exploitation by anyone who claims to be the chosen special one.

What are the qualifications for a commoner to have their sins forgiven through intercessors ?

What are the conditions under which an intercessors can refuse to mediate for the commoner ?

[Adam]

Good questions.
I am not one of those who do Shafa'at. So i don't know the answer.

In the mean time. Since I gave evidence from Dais before the 46th. I'm WAITING FOR BADRI JANABS RESPONSE.

[Adam]

Does he accept what i proved to be correct? Accept the evidence proven above.
That making his beliefs/assumptions WRONG?

Accept?

Then we can move on.

[porus]

My view of intercession is shaped only by what I read in the Quran. I do not pay attention to other documents like Naseehats, Hadith, or commentaries unless they elucidate the Quran. (Adam stated that Imam Jafar al-Sadiq claimed that Prophet and Imams will intercede but I am still waiting for a paragraph reference in Daaimul Islam where Imam may offer 'tafseer' of a relevant ayat for that claim.)

These are the three important points to be borne in mind:

1. No one can forgive except Allah ( I am not concerned with forgiveness among humans as a result of social interaction).

2. Intercession is for the Day of Judgment alone.

3. Waseela is not Intercession. Waseela can be invoked anytime before death. This post is not concerned with Waseela, which I have previously covered, I believe, adequately.

The following words concerning intercession are used in the Quran 30 times in 25 different ayats.

شَفَاعَةٌ = intercession (verbal noun)
يَشْفَعُ = intercede (verb); also its plural يَشْفَعُونَ
شَفِيعٌ = one who intercedes (noun); also its plural شُفَعَاءُ
شَافِعِينَ = Intercessors (noun), plural of شَافِع

Of the 25, one ayat (4:85) is not used in the sense of intercession with Allah at all. It is intercession among humans during social interaction.

The remaining 24 ayats can be divided into the following 3 groups:

Group 1: 10 ayats explicitly state that there will be no intercession (and no Intercessor) at all.

Group 2: 6 ayats state that there will be no intercession except with Allah's permission. This includes one ayat where angels are mentioned as possible Intercessors (53:26)

Group 3: 8 ayats deal with Mushriks who claim Allah's partners as Intercessors.

This leaves us only the Group 2 where Allah appears to hint that there may be an Intercessor on the Day of Judgment. However, Allah does not mention anyone, not even Muhammad in any of these ayats. (By the way, ayat 4:64 mentioned above by me is not about Intercession but Waseela, I believe.)

Although I do not offer a conclusion, I leave you with one thought. Why would Allah need an Intercessor when He has all the knowledge about anyone to judge him or her?

[anajmi]

An interesting thing happened at home today. My son wanted to play his wii. But I wanted to watch Baywatch at the same time. So I looked at my son with sharp eyes and said -

YOU WILL NOT BE PLAYING WII UNLESS I GIVE YOU PERMISSION TO PLAY IT.

And my son started jumping up and down with joy, claiming that I had given him permission to play the wii. I decided to change his name to Adam Abde Syedna.

Actually, I am not that unfortunate. When I told him He cannot play until I give him permission, he understood perfectly well!!

[pheonix]

An interesting thing happened at home today. My son wanted to play his wii. But I wanted to watch Baywatch at the same time. So I looked at my son with sharp eyes and said -

YOU WILL NOT BE PLAYING WII UNLESS I GIVE YOU PERMISSION TO PLAY IT.

And my son started jumping up and down with joy, claiming that I had given him permission to play the wii. I decided to change his name to Adam Abde Syedna.

Actually, I am not that unfortunate. When I told him He cannot play until I give him permission, he understood perfectly well!!

Wow, your son will be very rich soon.
Talking with and understading animals wild beasts is a rare talent.

[humanbeing]

I decided to change his name to Adam Abde Syedna.

Wow, your son will be very rich soon.

Sure ! When he joins Kothar Inc.

[Adam]

@PORUS
I already mentioned Imam Jafar Sadiqs quote where he quotes from the Quran namely talking about the non believers having NO SHAFE'EEN, but the Shias will have. The Ayat is : (فَمَا لنَا مِن شاَفِعيِنَ) in Surah Shoa'rah Chapter 19
And Imams reply:

One famous quote from Imam Sadiq is:
*عن أبي عبدالله الصادق (عليه السلام) انه قال : إن الله أباح لمحمد الشفاعه في أمته , (وأعطانا الشفاعة في شيعتنا ), وإن لشيعتنا الشفاعة في أهاليهم ,وإليه الاشارة بقوله : (فَمَا لنَا مِن شاَفِعيِنَ) قال (والله لنشفعن في شيعتنا, حتى يقول أعداؤنا) : (فَمَا لنَا مِن شاَفِعيِنَ) ثم قال : والله ليشفعن شيعتنا في أهاليهم حتى تقول شيعة أعداءنا : (ولاَ صَدِقٍ حَمِيم)..
"Allah has given the right to Mohammed to do Shafa'at in his Ummat, and given us Shafa'at for our Shias"
"By God/Allah we will do Shafa'at for our Shias"

Secondly, I have already quoted from the Quran that Shafa'at can be done by the عباد مكرمون, and they will only do Shafa'at of whom they desire.
This is what I wrote (just in case you missed it)

21|26|وَقَالُوا۟ ٱتَّخَذَ ٱلرَّحْمَٰنُ وَلَدًۭا ۗ سُبْحَٰنَهُۥ ۚ بَلْ عِبَادٌۭ مُّكْرَمُونَ
21|27|لَا يَسْبِقُونَهُۥ بِٱلْقَوْلِ وَهُم بِأَمْرِهِۦ يَعْمَلُونَ
21|28|يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلَا يَشْفَعُونَ إِلَّا لِمَنِ ٱرْتَضَىٰ وَهُم مِّنْ خَشْيَتِهِۦ مُشْفِقُونَ
[21:26]
And they say: "(God) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! they are (but) servants raised to honour.
[21:27]
They speak not before He speaks, and they act (in all things) by His Command.
[21:28]
He knows what is before them, and what is behind them, and they offer no intercession except for those who are acceptable, and they stand in awe and reverence of His (Glory).

The above two ayats explain that Shafa'at (intercedence) is for a "Special" few. It is up to interpretation of each sect of Islam as to WHOM these people are.

Thirdly, your claim of :

I do not pay attention to other documents like Naseehats, Hadith, or commentaries unless they elucidate the Quran.

This view of yours is "half" flawed.
The Quran is the source, but you need to understand the Quran through a teacher. NOT because the Quran is insufficient, but rather because mankind isn't capable of understanding on his own without a teacher, even if he may know Arabic (someone like you).
Like Allah says to Rasulullah
16|44|وَأَنزَلْنَآ إِلَيْكَ ٱلذِّكْرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَلَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ
"We have sent the Quran to you FOR YOU TO EXPLAIN TO THEM"

Therefore he sent a Rasool to explain to the people the words of Allah. If the Quran were enough, then Allah didn't need to send down a Rasool (explainer) to mankind in the first place.

That is the base of our belief, the Quran and The Rasool come together.

And after the death of the Rasool, the RIGHTFUL Imam explains to the people of his time the meanings of the Quran.

I have clarified this multiple times, that although you "claim" to follow purely the Quran (which is impossible as stated above).

That's why there are SO MANY different Tafseers and interpretations of the Quran, for each sect and in each sect a different Tafseer.
This all shows that understanding the Quran on it's own isn't possible. You need to go through a scholar, who himself was influenced by another Tafseer and so on. That's why every tafseer differs from the other.

You have actually been influenced by SOME SORT OF TAFSEER, or SOME school of thought, or some teacher, that you have come to this conclusion.
Thus, your belief isn't as "pure" as you think it is.
Rather, it is biased towards your "teacher" / book / person whoever.


In Dawoodi Bohra s case.
Our interpretor (TAFSEER) of the Quran is by
- Rasool
- Imam
- Dai al Satr

Simple.

[Al Zulfiqar]

In Dawoodi Bohra s case.
Our interpretor (TAFSEER) of the Quran is
- Dai al Satr
Simple

a corrupt dai and the head of an ayyash and arrogant family, who thinks of himself as haqiqi kaaba, mojiza na saheb and ilah ul ardh. if this is the person whose tafseer you follow, no wonder you are such a liar and charlatan. not just you, the entire bohra community is messed up in their heads....

SIMPLE!!!

[Adam]

So who's your source/authority?

[porus]

The Ayat is : (فَمَا لنَا مِن شاَفِعيِنَ) in Surah Shoa'rah Chapter 19

Adam,

Indeed it is ayat 100 from surah as-shu'ara (26:100).

I did not find in Imam Jafar as-Sadiq's quote by you any explanation for his belief that Imams are/will be 'the intercessors for their shia'. He simply states it and quotes the above ayat in support. I am unable to see the connection yet.

While there is unshakable belief among all Muslims that the Prophet is The Intercessor - and they have support for that belief in the Quran such as ayat 47:19 -, there does not appear to be an ayat which lends support that Imams of the Shia are Intercessors exclusively for their group.

In any case, Shia are included among Muslims and Prophet is their Intercessor too. Why would they need an Imam when they already have the Nabi?

Here is a very good explanation from a Sunni about Intercession with reference to both the Quran and the famous "Forty Ahadeeth". It is worth a read.

http://www.ahlesunnat.biz/intercession.pdf

As I stated previously, I suspend my judgment on the issue of Waseela and Shafaa'at mainly because I do not fully understand the concepts. The more I read about them, the more questions arise in my mind. So, I will leave this issue for a later time when, Inshallah, I am more able to comment upon it.

Meanwhile, thank you for the input.

[Adam]

Just clarifying th above.

Which part of this didn't you understand:

Imam Jafar saying:
وأعطانا الشفاعة في شيعتنا
(We have been given the Shafa't of or Shias in our hands)

والله لنشفعن في شيعتنا
(I swear by Allah, we will do Shafa'at of our Shias.)

In any case, Shia are included among Muslims and Prophet is their Intercessor too. Why would they need an Imam when they already have the Nabi?

Ayat in Surah Isra
يوم ندعو كل اناس بامامهم
(We will call upon every people by their Imam.)
Each peoples Imam of the time will do shafat of their people.
Like I mentioned, it's a link Imam > Prophet > Allah

Since you've mentioned you don't understand/accept the thought. It's best to leave it as it is.

As for BADRI JANAB, he can PM me when he gets his mind in place.