advice on marriage outside the community

[ghazala]

Hi, I'm a Bohra girl in the U.S. and I am convinced that I want to marry a guy I've been dating for almost three years. He is Christian. I know that Muslim women are forbidden to marry non-Muslim men, but that is not my major concern. I want to know if anyone on this forum has advice on how I can make this work.... How I can continue to be a part of my community and convince my parents that I am committed to my family. My parents say they will never accept this marriage- not even years down the road, not even if I try hard to stay close to my family- is there any way I can get them to feel otherwise? Is there anyone out there who has tried this and has advice? Thanks

[Aleem]

As a Muslim you are not forbidden to marry a christian. The Quran does state that for marraige, Ahle-Qitaab (people of the book ie: christians/ jews) are not haraam for marriage.

I don't have any specific quotes or sources of hand but will investigate. Perpahs others can help out and advise?

[porus]

Muslim dogma has it that Muslim women may not marry non-Muslims. Muslim men may marry "people of the book".

I would ignore the injunction, even if it came from God, because no God, worthy of his/her name, would demand such a thing.

If you are concerned with maintaing close relatiomships with your folks, then I suggest that your intended spouse and you mount a pretence of comversion to Islam. Fake it and may be he might actually like it.

[khuzema]

Muslims are not forbidden to marry a Christian or Jews. The problem will be with the society, with the culture. You both are from different culture. So it will be tough to make this work. A bohri marrying a catholic is better then a bohri marrying a protestant. For a progressive bohra it is better to marry a protestant then to marry a catholic.

It also depends more upon each individual. Ever case is different. Think about your children, who will marry them? Think a lot before marriage. Why don’t you get some professional advice.

[barwani]

The way I’ve seen most people in my family circle get around this is to make the “non-Bohra” whether he/she is a Christian, Jew, etc. is to just take Misaq … It doesn’t have to mean anything..

sh

[serendipity]

Dear Ghazala, First of all find out if your christian man is "born again", in other words a fundamentalist! Hopefully he is not, because then there is HOPE for you....He may be wise enough to realize that NO human except Allah's own concealed representative (the Imam) is qualified to truly interpret the Torah, Gospel, and Quran.

[ghazala]

He's not born again, he's actually rather atheist.

My problem with having him convert to Islam is that it is hypocritical. I especially don't want to tell my parents he has converted when he actually hasn't- lying about something like that would only widen the rift between us.

Thanks to all for your responses.

[Muddai]

having him convert to Islam is that it is hypocritical.

That will work even better. He will naturally fit in !

Your parents will brag to their friends about converting another (to hyprocrisy) and you will live happily ever after.

[Muddai]

A clarification. I am referring to the process of conversion as hypocritical, and obviously not the religion itself.

A relative went through this process and it was simply centered around taking the Misaq, and the intent or practise of the religion thereafter, seemed to be irrelevant. In fact, the one who took the Misaq has no idea what he took an oath to.

[barwani]

A relative went through this process and it was simply centered around taking the Misaq, and the intent or practise of the religion thereafter, seemed to be irrelevant. In fact, the one who took the Misaq has no idea what he took an oath to.

Exactly - that’s what happened in my family too - the person went to India and took a misaq there - and both sides (the Amil and the person taking the misaq) knew that it meant nothing - just as a token ceremony of initiation into the community. All he's got to say is Naam.

sh

[Dilber]

Harsh as it may sound:

1. If he is WHITE forget marrying him.....it is THAT SIMPLE

(Culture alone will be a problem in all the YEARS to come)

2. If your parents/ family do not like it forget marrying him........it is THAT SIMPLe

(You have had a LIFE LONG LOVING relationship with your family, this guy you hae only known for so many day......why sacrifice a long and sincere relationship for an emotional one? Think of YOUR MOTHER)

3. Marriage is more than a relationship between a man and a woman. It is not JUST the two of you. It is not ONLY a religious problem. It is not ONLY a family matter...marriage is much more than that. It is more than finding a "Beautiful" person to live with. Thus if you have any doubt/difficulty then forget marrying this guy.

PLEASE SEEK ADVICE from your mother and PERMISSION from your father......this may sound "backward" but it WILL DO YOU a WORLD OF GOOD Believe me.

I can go on and on but this is my advice to you, take it or leave oit BUT DO NOT LEAVEYOUR FAMILY that is all you have got.

[porus]

Bad advice from Dilber.

If your parents have a genuine onjection arising out of deeply held religious convictions, then solution is simple. Conversion to Bohraism.

Any other reason is based on an egotistical agenda based on fear of social ostracism and percieved shame. Your parents have given into fear. They need the wake-up call which your marriage will give them. You will do them good even if they refuse to learn the lesson.

Whethet your marriage survives or not is not currently an issue.

[Dilber]

Bad advice from Dilber.

<B> Not at all, this is not some foolish theory we are talking about. This is about humans and relationships. In this the immediate family comes first[/b]


Whethet your marriage survives or not is not currently an issue

Precisely THAT IS THE ISSUE. A young person seeking advice must be told the truth. The truth is that we do not live in an ideal world and problems arise in situations such as this and lives are destroyed.

[Asma]

Assalam Alaikum,

Ghazala, I think you need to think hard about what is truly important to you. On one hand it is your family..your identity, and on the other hand its your three year old love.

Think about it practically, does this man's love outdo all that is important to you? Is he worth going through all the hardships you will inevitably face?

Please, do not force or encourage anyone to converting into Islam when they do not beleive in the religion...it would not only be an insult to Allah but also you would have committed a grave sin.

No one on this forum has the right to tell you what to do. Ghazala, you must think not only with your heart but with your mind too..after all romance does not last forever. And you must make your own decisions.

Insha-Allah they will be the right ones for you and those that are most important to you.

[jinx]

I would agree with Dilber. Forget about it..unless you are strong enough to face the world alone. There is way too much at stake here and it is to risky.

Yes, I do understand that everyone wants to marry whom their heart desire but then again..this life is not bed of roses. You don’t always get what you want.

Ask yourself..what do you want in this life apart from marriage? And then ask yourself again..how would this marriage to a Christian man contribute in achieving your dream..

In any case..if you still think you need to marry this man and cant do without him..there are only 2 course of action.
1. Get him in our community, take misaq, teach him few basic things and do a proper nikah. It will save time and cut corners and will really help in long run.

2. Or just get marry anywhere in any which way that you like..court marriage, church marriage.. any type of marriage.

Well..they say Muslim women are not allowed to marry Christian men without him becoming Muslim. There are many plus point and benefit to it..but I don’t think we have
time to discuss that now.

In any case ..don’t worry about being hypocritical and bohra community. Everyone in Bohra community are hypocrites.

Enjoy!

[Aleem]

DEAR GHAZALA,

I AM RE-RE-POSTING SOME INFORMATION PUT UP IN THE PAST WHICH INSHALLAH WILL BE HELPFUL TO YOU.

AT THE BOTTOM IS THE ACTUAL TEMPLATE OF A REAL LETTER (PRENUPTUAL AGREEMENT) WHICH KHOTAR REQURES YOU AND YOUR SPOUSE TO SIGN AND THIS IS ONLY IMPOSED WITH NON-BOHRAS.

INSHALLAH - YOU CAN MAKE YOUR OWN DECISION BASED ON THE FACTS.

posted 08-02-2002 08:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ColdGolz,
reposting an old post which may have some info for you,

Salaams,
Aleem

Dear Confused:
Salaam

As explained by "Musalmaan", it is true that proper Islamic law does allow for marriage w/ a Chirstian. However that means nothing to the current bohra regime. They have exploited their own rules.

As for the civil marriage, depending on what country you are in, Bohra marriages are not always recognized by the state in all places so you will need to obtain a civil document from somewhere

Khotar will impose threats on you and will only allow a niqah if you and your partner bow down and sign a letter. Your partner will also be forced to change his/her name to one that is deemed fit by the khotar.

Even if you do it outside the khotar will do what they can to put shame on your family. This is inevitable. The choice you must make is whether you want them to control your life or not.

As for the letter you and your husband/wife to be would need to sign, I am placing it below once again for your (and everyone elses) information. Please read it. It is a disgusting and demeaning document from the cult masters.

I do not mean to put you off/ scare you. But these are the facts which the khotar impose. You must do what you believe Allah wants you to do with a good intention, even if it means getting "ousted" from a cult.

Afterall marriage is one of the most important things in your life - ALHAMDULILLAH and you chould not have to have it conducted it in an ill-manner

Inshallah - everything will be fine.

Salaams
Aleem

posted 01-03-2001 12:11 AM ET (US)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a letter forced to be signed. It's what the khotar insists on when corssing non-bohras in marriages.
If not signed and wedlock is done outside of bohradom, then sever boycott and baraat is imposed on direct and indirect family members. The countless examples of baraat and emotional tortureyou will have read about/ discussed on this website speak for themselves.

_________________________-
The 52nd Dai al-Mutlaq
His Holiness Dr. Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (TUS)
Head of Dawoodi Bohra Community
Badri Mahal
Dr. D N Road, Fort
Mumbai 400 001

Syedna (TUS)

Sajadaat

We, the undersigned (girls full name) and (boys full name) undertake on our getting married to strictly adhere to the laws, rules, customs, traditions and culture of Dawat-e-Hadiyah and in all matters of religion, particularly matrimonial action, divorce, custody of children, maintenance and inheritance we agree to be governed by Islamic law as is interpreted by al-Dai al-Mutlaq. And further, God forbid, in the event of our divorce or separation or death of any one of us, or both, our children shall be raised as per the directions of al-Dai al-Mutlaq.

(girls signature) (boys signature)

[Aleem]

DEAR GHAZALA,

I AM RE-RE-POSTING SOME INFORMATION PUT UP IN THE PAST WHICH INSHALLAH WILL BE HELPFUL TO YOU.

AT THE BOTTOM IS THE ACTUAL TEMPLATE OF A REAL LETTER (PRENUPTUAL AGREEMENT) WHICH KHOTAR REQURES YOU AND YOUR SPOUSE TO SIGN AND THIS IS ONLY IMPOSED WITH NON-BOHRAS.

INSHALLAH - YOU CAN MAKE YOUR OWN DECISION BASED ON THE FACTS.

posted 08-02-2002 08:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ColdGolz,
reposting an old post which may have some info for you,

Salaams,
Aleem

Dear Confused:
Salaam

As explained by "Musalmaan", it is true that proper Islamic law does allow for marriage w/ a Chirstian. However that means nothing to the current bohra regime. They have exploited their own rules.

As for the civil marriage, depending on what country you are in, Bohra marriages are not always recognized by the state in all places so you will need to obtain a civil document from somewhere

Khotar will impose threats on you and will only allow a niqah if you and your partner bow down and sign a letter. Your partner will also be forced to change his/her name to one that is deemed fit by the khotar.

Even if you do it outside the khotar will do what they can to put shame on your family. This is inevitable. The choice you must make is whether you want them to control your life or not.

As for the letter you and your husband/wife to be would need to sign, I am placing it below once again for your (and everyone elses) information. Please read it. It is a disgusting and demeaning document from the cult masters.

I do not mean to put you off/ scare you. But these are the facts which the khotar impose. You must do what you believe Allah wants you to do with a good intention, even if it means getting "ousted" from a cult.

Afterall marriage is one of the most important things in your life - ALHAMDULILLAH and you chould not have to have it conducted it in an ill-manner

Inshallah - everything will be fine.

Salaams
Aleem

posted 01-03-2001 12:11 AM ET (US)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a letter forced to be signed. It's what the khotar insists on when corssing non-bohras in marriages.
If not signed and wedlock is done outside of bohradom, then sever boycott and baraat is imposed on direct and indirect family members. The countless examples of baraat and emotional tortureyou will have read about/ discussed on this website speak for themselves.

_________________________-
The 52nd Dai al-Mutlaq
His Holiness Dr. Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (TUS)
Head of Dawoodi Bohra Community
Badri Mahal
Dr. D N Road, Fort
Mumbai 400 001

Syedna (TUS)

Sajadaat

We, the undersigned (girls full name) and (boys full name) undertake on our getting married to strictly adhere to the laws, rules, customs, traditions and culture of Dawat-e-Hadiyah and in all matters of religion, particularly matrimonial action, divorce, custody of children, maintenance and inheritance we agree to be governed by Islamic law as is interpreted by al-Dai al-Mutlaq. And further, God forbid, in the event of our divorce or separation or death of any one of us, or both, our children shall be raised as per the directions of al-Dai al-Mutlaq.

(girls signature) (boys signature)

[whoami]

sister ghazala

[bon-bon]

Hi, I have a question, as I am in a similar position to the starter of this topic. With regard to the signing of this 'letter':
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a letter forced to be signed. It's what the khotar insists on when corssing non-bohras in marriages.
If not signed and wedlock is done outside of bohradom, then sever boycott and baraat is imposed on direct and indirect family members. The countless examples of baraat and emotional tortureyou will have read about/ discussed on this website speak for themselves.

_________________________-
The 52nd Dai al-Mutlaq
His Holiness Dr. Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (TUS)
Head of Dawoodi Bohra Community
Badri Mahal
Dr. D N Road, Fort
Mumbai 400 001

Syedna (TUS)

Sajadaat

We, the undersigned (girls full name) and (boys full name) undertake on our getting married to strictly adhere to the laws, rules, customs, traditions and culture of Dawat-e-Hadiyah and in all matters of religion, particularly matrimonial action, divorce, custody of children, maintenance and inheritance we agree to be governed by Islamic law as is interpreted by al-Dai al-Mutlaq. And further, God forbid, in the event of our divorce or separation or death of any one of us, or both, our children shall be raised as per the directions of al-Dai al-Mutlaq.

(girls signature) (boys signature)
--------------------------------------------------

In terms of law (i.e. not religious law, but law of a country of resience, say for example the U.K.) how effective is the part reffering to divorce / death of partner and raising of (as yet unborn) children - I guess what I am asking is what would happen say, if either, or both parents were to die, and the only surviving relatives were from the 'non-muslim' side of the two families, yet the 'powers that be' decide that the children should be raised by muslims (and not by family).

I would be really interested in opinions on this hypothetical situation.
Thanx

[Danish]

Dear bon-bon,

A short but discrete answer to your dilemma is that, "as long as the person believes in GOD, nothing must stop one from marrying the other, by GOD's Will".

I've been in similar situations as you, Ghazala and many others, but I paved my way out from the tyrannical Bohra as well as other shia/sunni communites, married a foreign believer (a Catholic) and living a "happy life" with children, Masha-Allah, Alhamdu-Lillah.

[Danish]

You are driving along in your car on a wild, stormy night.
You pass by a bus stop, and you see three people waiting for the bus:

1. An old lady who looks as if she is about to die.
2. An old friend who once saved your life.
3. The perfect partner you have been dreaming about.

Which one would you choose to offer a ride to, knowing that there could only be one passenger in your car. Think before you continue reading. This is a moral/ethical dilemma that was once actually used as part of a job application. The candidate who was hired (out of 2000 applicants) had no trouble coming up with an answer.

[Muslim First]

Danish

Since you strictly follow Quran then plese tell

If a Muslim (Submitter in your case) Woman is allowed to marry non Muslim (Submitter in your case) man?

Once again straight answer as per Quran please.

.

[ponga bhori]

Danish,

I would rephrase the Muslim First question to you:
"If a Muslim (Submitter in your case) Woman is allowed OR NOT ALLOWED to marry non Muslim (Submitter in your case) man?.......as per Quran please.

Thanks.

[Danish]

Muslim First wrote:

If a Muslim (Submitter in your case) Woman is allowed to marry non Muslim (Submitter in your case) man?

Ponga Bohri rephrased:

"If a Muslim (Submitter in your case) Woman is allowed OR NOT ALLOWED to marry non Muslim (Submitter in your case) man?

Both of the above are wrongly stated. Firstly, the question is incomplete because of the "If". Secondly, a Muslim simply means "submitter (one who submits to GOD Alone)" and therefore a non-Muslim being a submitter is wrongly stated.

Once again, my answer to the above question is: "as long as the person believes in GOD, nothing must stop one from marrying the other, by GOD's Will". This person could be absolutely anyone on earth, regardless of race, colour, gender, ethnicity, fame, etc.

[2:221] Do not marry idolatresses unless they believe; a believing woman is better than an idolatress, even if you like her. Nor shall you give your daughters in marriage to idolatrous men, unless they believe. A believing man is better than an idolater, even if you like him. These invite to Hell, while GOD invites to Paradise and forgiveness, as He wills. He clarifies His revelations for the people, that they may take heed.

[5:5] Today, all good food is made lawful for you. The food of the people of the scripture is lawful for you. Also, you may marry the chaste women among the believers, as well as the chaste women among the followers of previous scripture, provided you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain chastity, not committing adultery, nor taking secret lovers. Anyone who rejects faith, all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be with the losers.

[Muslim First]

.
Posting selective translatios are very dangerous thing.

Here is what Dansish Posted without changes:

[2:221] Do not marry idolatresses unless they believe; a believing woman is better than an idolatress , even if you like her. Nor shall you give your daughters in marriage to idolatrous men, unless they believe. A believing man is better than an idolater, even if you like him. These invite to Hell, while GOD invites to Paradise and forgiveness, as He wills. He clarifies His revelations for the people, that they may take heed.

Now look at Bold text and compare it with other translations which are in use for years say Pickthall:

Mow Danish's Bold text:

a believing woman is better than an idolatress , even if you like her.

And Same thing as translated by Pickthall:

a believing bondwoman is better than an idolatress though she

You see my point Danish turned Bondswoman into just plain woman. Just little editing?

Here are 3 translations of 2.221

Pickthall: Wed not idolatresses till they believe; for lo! a believing bondwoman is better than an idolatress though she please you ; and give not your daughters in marriage to idolaters till they believe, for lo! a believing slave is better than an idolater though he please you . These invite unto the Fire, and Allah inviteth unto the Garden, and unto forgiveness by His grace, and expoundeth thus His revelations to mankind that haply they may remember.

Malik: Do not marry mushrik women until they become believers; a believing slave woman is better than a free mushrik woman even though she may be more attractive to you. Likewise, do not marry mushrik men until they become believers: a believing slave is better than a free mushrik even though he may be more pleasing to you . These mushrikin invite you to hell fire while Allah invites you towards paradise and forgiveness by His grace. He makes His revelations clear to mankind so that they may take heed.

Yusuf Ali: Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters) until they believe; a slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman even though she allure you . Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: a man slave who believes is better than un unbeliever even though he allure you . Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the fire. But Allah beckons by His grace to the Garden (of Bliss) and forgiveness and makes His Signs clear to mankind: that they may celebrate His praise. 246

Here is best part of Yusuf Ali's translation of 2:221, his comment 246

246 Marriage is a most intimate communion, and the mystery of sex finds its highest fulfilment when intimate spiritual harmony is combined with the physical link. If religion is at all a real influence in life to both parties or to either party, a difference in this vital matter must affect the lives of both more profoundly than differences of birth, race, language, or position in life. It is therefore only right that the parties to be married should have the same spiritual outlook. If two person love each other, their outlook in the highest things of life must be the same. Note that religion is not here a mere label or a matter of custom or birth. The two persons may have been born in different religions, but if, by their mutual influence, they come to see the truth in the same way, they must openly accept the same rites and the same social brotherhood. Otherwise the position will become impossible individually and socially.

and this is what I remind my son all the times

Wasalaam

.

[Danish]

Muslim First,

Posting selective translations of Pickthall are also very dangerous thing.

Only a distorted and unsettled mind, such as yours, can pinpoint differences rather than understanding the overall message.

[Muslim First]

Danish

Ghazala has no problem marrying Christian. She is just asking advice on how to sell it to her parents.

If we do not have anything constructive then lets
just Shut-UP.

Peaace.
.

[qiyam]

Danish,
the things you don't understand are the words you didn't highlight.

In the ayats of surah Baqara that you quoted, Allah says for the mumin and muminah to marry to only those that submit to Allah.

In the ayats of surah Al'Maidah, Allah adds the condition for MEN only that they are allowed to marry those believing women (muminah) and of those chaste women who follow the former scriptures (ie jews and christian women).

Thus Allah's criteria for marriage is firmly established. So when you say "This person could be absolutely anyone on earth, regardless of race, colour, gender, ethnicity, fame, etc." you are very wrong regarding GENDER.

[Danish]

Muslim First,

Ghazala has no problem marrying Christian. She is just asking advice on how to sell it to her parents.

Don't place words into your mouth dude, put a little "mind" into it. You sound so FOOLISH by judging Ghazala's problems. I directed my first answer to bon-bon and not Ghazala, silly.

[qiyam]

Dear Ghazala,
I am not a marriage expert...though I am married. To take from my own experience...I would find it very difficult to practice my faith and accomodate my wife's (even if she were christian or jewish). And in fact that is the key words...practice my faith. If you are indeed practicing your faith...you wouldn't even be considering this man for marriage..because Allah's doesn't allow it. The problem here is your life will completely change if you marry a christian, jew, atheist, etc. because both of you will at one point or other adjust to the beliefs and practices of the other. More than likely you will lean towards his beliefs.

Everything you've stated is to accomdate your desires...not your faith. You feel it is hypocritical for your boyfriend to convert (or pretend to convert) to Islam...yet it is ok for you to be hypocritical to your faith that your trying to protect from meligning. The fact that you've been dating is hypocritical to your faith...and that behind your parent's back is worse.

My comments may seem judgemental and harsh...but they are the truth. And the truth is usually coarser than the the sugar coated reality we may create. Your parent's are coarse to you...because they are in fact giving you the best example they can...by practicing what they preach.

If you marry this man...you are disobeying Allah...to the degree of breaking your mithaq (covenant) with Allah. This is something you cannot truthfully retake until you divorce/separate from this him...or his accepts Islam.

May Allah guide you.