About 20 years ago or so....
There was no compulsory saya
There was no compulsory dadhi
There was no compulsory rida
There was no compulsory maatam (for every and any occasion)
Topi was a must only in masjid and jamaatkhana.
Black robes were permitted during mohrram.
There was no such thing as darees and other such inventions.
Of course, the 'royal family' was as greedy as it is now. But what do you expect, it's their business.
Anyways, look at things now. Everything is compulsory:
saya, dadhi, rida, maatam, topi, darees and what not. Black robes are out the window, and greed is right at the centre, rock solid, impregnable.
Now everything that is compulsory today is justified on the basis of the Quran, sunnah and on one pretext or the other. And mullahs and their hirelings are only too eager to throw relevant scriptures at you to prove that what they are doing is right and propah and sunnah.
That's fine with me. But the question is, if all this is compulsory and legitimate now, why was it not compulsory and legitimate then. Either mullahs are wrong today or the mullahs were wrong until 20 years ago. Either the dawat was "living in sin" today or the dawat was "living in sin" until 20 years ago.
Let's assume that the compulsory regime of today is correct and legitimate. Then it stands to reason that the dawat and dais until 20 years ago did not know what they were doing or were ignorant of religion or didn't care much about these ritual or did not care much to enforce it or did not think them important enough or the dai was fallible then or ..... well the possibilities are endless.
The point is, forget the past. We've newly minted Born Again Bohras.
Welcome to the land of Born Again Bohras.
The dawat's assorted apologists, defenders and hangers-on behave and act like new converts. Everything you say is an OPINION. Facts are mere whims. The life of 20 years ago - when nothing was compulsory - is an illusion. It never existed. It's bad faith.
The Born Again Bohras have a new look and feel. Nice dhadi, topi, white libas and colourful ridas. That's standard. Monotony of thinking and monotony of appearance. Empty heads, empty souls and emptier pockets. Dawat is dead, long live Dawat. What a feat.
Born Again Bohras
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MOHD HUSSAIN
- Posts: 443
- Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Born Again Bohras
Br Hamsafar ,You are so right!One more thing is the so called color cards issued to BAB's -this was 'nt there 20 years ago either! any response from abde Syednas?
Re: Born Again Bohras
Great question ..I hope you have better luck than I did...(I posted it on 11/01, Qiyam did not answer the question and looking back at it, the response was rather humorous....)
Here's the link
http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/cgibin/UB ... 310#000033
Here's the link
http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/cgibin/UB ... 310#000033
Re: Born Again Bohras
I don't expect a straight answer either. If at all, the born again bohra pundits will fudge and obfuscate as usual. The fact is that a whole generation of Bohras have been brainwashed, their faith has been reinvented and all this change has nothing to with religion.
The BAB priesthood is as much interested in religion and spirituality as Bush is interested in peace and democracy.
The BAB priesthood is as much interested in religion and spirituality as Bush is interested in peace and democracy.
Re: Born Again Bohras
Dear Believer and Humsafar,
if you looked at the link...I did answer your question...as well as answering it over and over again in other thread....even in the Qiyam thread. Maybe you should read the entire post. You say there was not safai chitti...there was...read some Fatimi history and you will find examples in there. You say that persons didn't wear siyo kurtas...the Prophet wore a white kurta with and izar. He commons wore a white cloak (siyo). I recommended praying on white cotton or palm straw...and always at on a thaal using his right hand.
Every we do now was in place 20, 50, 100 years ago and was sunnah...it was not enforced. It has always been wajib...because the sunnah is wajib.
if you looked at the link...I did answer your question...as well as answering it over and over again in other thread....even in the Qiyam thread. Maybe you should read the entire post. You say there was not safai chitti...there was...read some Fatimi history and you will find examples in there. You say that persons didn't wear siyo kurtas...the Prophet wore a white kurta with and izar. He commons wore a white cloak (siyo). I recommended praying on white cotton or palm straw...and always at on a thaal using his right hand.
Every we do now was in place 20, 50, 100 years ago and was sunnah...it was not enforced. It has always been wajib...because the sunnah is wajib.
Re: Born Again Bohras
qiyam,
The question is not whether all this is wajib or not. The question is that these wajib tenets were not made compulsory or enforced until 20 years ago. Why?
If the tenets were that wajib and important to one's faith they would have been imposed throughout Dawat's history. Your argument is that dais in olden times were too busy protecting their rule and fending off enemies to care about enforcing tenets that are wajib. This proves my point, these tenets are not that important.
Even so, if we along with your argument, the dawat was under no threat 50 years ago or even 100 years ago. So even during this peaceful period dais did not bother to impose these wajib tenets.
Why did the dai wake up to it only 20 years ago?
The question is not whether all this is wajib or not. The question is that these wajib tenets were not made compulsory or enforced until 20 years ago. Why?
If the tenets were that wajib and important to one's faith they would have been imposed throughout Dawat's history. Your argument is that dais in olden times were too busy protecting their rule and fending off enemies to care about enforcing tenets that are wajib. This proves my point, these tenets are not that important.
Even so, if we along with your argument, the dawat was under no threat 50 years ago or even 100 years ago. So even during this peaceful period dais did not bother to impose these wajib tenets.
Why did the dai wake up to it only 20 years ago?
Re: Born Again Bohras
I agree there...... This is easier for them to enforce things...just make it wajib.
Hyder
Hyder
Re: Born Again Bohras
Dear Humsafar,
During the time that the dawat had actual control of the followers...these were enforced. I already mention that during the times of the Fatimi Imams...all of these tenets were encouraged. I think it is a far cry for you to say ENFORCED...no one is enforcing anything on bohras except in the religious institutions.
you wrote: Your argument is that dais in olden times were too busy protecting their rule and fending off enemies to care about enforcing tenets that are wajib
I did not write this...I wrote that the community was not a tight community as it has become. Bohras in Yemen, Africa, even throughout India were not remotely connected as now.
You admit the items were wajib..thus compulsory. Outside of the religious institution...no one is checking if you wear a topi, siyo kurta, ridha, etc. I would the vast majority don't! So what is your point?
During the time that the dawat had actual control of the followers...these were enforced. I already mention that during the times of the Fatimi Imams...all of these tenets were encouraged. I think it is a far cry for you to say ENFORCED...no one is enforcing anything on bohras except in the religious institutions.
you wrote: Your argument is that dais in olden times were too busy protecting their rule and fending off enemies to care about enforcing tenets that are wajib
I did not write this...I wrote that the community was not a tight community as it has become. Bohras in Yemen, Africa, even throughout India were not remotely connected as now.
You admit the items were wajib..thus compulsory. Outside of the religious institution...no one is checking if you wear a topi, siyo kurta, ridha, etc. I would the vast majority don't! So what is your point?
Re: Born Again Bohras
I wrote that the community was not a tight community as it has become
My question is exactly how did it become so "tight" ? I am almost scared to ask what you mean by "tight".
It was not a coincidence but intimidating enforcement using safai chittis and baraat. Again, please do not ignore the question. Arguably these rules have existed all along, the question is, why the strict enforcement in the last 20 years ?
no one is checking if you wear a topi, siyo kurta, ridha, etc. I would the vast majority don't! So what is your point?
No one is checking it, merely reporting it to the authority that issues playing cards ("Safai Chitti"). It relegates you to a yellow card (provided you attend the mosque regularly and pay the $), otherwise RED it is.
...but again you know all of this, but will ask for proof that all are to scared too provide (baraat), except for people on this board, and you don't believe us anyway.
A convenient Catch-22....
My question is exactly how did it become so "tight" ? I am almost scared to ask what you mean by "tight".
It was not a coincidence but intimidating enforcement using safai chittis and baraat. Again, please do not ignore the question. Arguably these rules have existed all along, the question is, why the strict enforcement in the last 20 years ?
no one is checking if you wear a topi, siyo kurta, ridha, etc. I would the vast majority don't! So what is your point?
No one is checking it, merely reporting it to the authority that issues playing cards ("Safai Chitti"). It relegates you to a yellow card (provided you attend the mosque regularly and pay the $), otherwise RED it is.
...but again you know all of this, but will ask for proof that all are to scared too provide (baraat), except for people on this board, and you don't believe us anyway.
A convenient Catch-22....
Re: Born Again Bohras
Humsafar, why are you so fixated by what was going on 20 years back. Can you go back 60 years. Have you seen how our grandfathers lived. I remember as a kid that all the elders ( I mean 60+) had a beard and used to wear topi all the time. All the 30+ did not have a beard. Our grandmothers used to wear very modest ghaghra-dupatta at home and khes(type of burkha) but mothers used to wear saris.
The community was slowly and IMPERCEBTIBLY sliding away from the sunnah. We are indeed very lucky to have a leader who had noticed that if no action was taken where the community was being directed to.
Sayas and ridas used to be worn by the bhaisahebs and the aam mumin would wear sherwanis and womenfolk would wear khes. Aqa Maula made it as one dress code for all mumineen.
And you talk about black robes. Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin, the 43rd Daii, prohibited Bohras to wear black robes during Muharram arguing that it was not our dress and was the dress of Ithna Asharis.
Take the simple example of the language we speak at home. For years we have spoken Gujarati at home, but with the modern western pressures, we (meaning our generation)have started speaking English at home and our kids do not understand our mother tongue and when they go to the mosque they do not understand what the Aamil is talking about. This impercebtible movement has also been spotted by the Daii and now he has instructed that we speak Gujarati or rather Lisan-e-Dawat at home.
The community was slowly and IMPERCEBTIBLY sliding away from the sunnah. We are indeed very lucky to have a leader who had noticed that if no action was taken where the community was being directed to.
Sayas and ridas used to be worn by the bhaisahebs and the aam mumin would wear sherwanis and womenfolk would wear khes. Aqa Maula made it as one dress code for all mumineen.
And you talk about black robes. Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin, the 43rd Daii, prohibited Bohras to wear black robes during Muharram arguing that it was not our dress and was the dress of Ithna Asharis.
Take the simple example of the language we speak at home. For years we have spoken Gujarati at home, but with the modern western pressures, we (meaning our generation)have started speaking English at home and our kids do not understand our mother tongue and when they go to the mosque they do not understand what the Aamil is talking about. This impercebtible movement has also been spotted by the Daii and now he has instructed that we speak Gujarati or rather Lisan-e-Dawat at home.
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MOHD HUSSAIN
- Posts: 443
- Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Born Again Bohras
Br Simon; You all have not still answered the central question raised by Br Hamsafar and you beat around the bush as usual! Exercise-Try talking your kids in Lisan-e-dawat & se what happens! You guys make me laugh!
Re: Born Again Bohras
Giving instructions to community to speak Gujarati is one thing. To force the community to wear dadhi, rida, saya etc under pain of punishment is quite another.
I'm fixated on 20 years because during this period the community has been transformed beyond recognition - and because the Bohra clergy is bent upon rewriting the past. Things were different before that.
Reformists know very well why the community has been so sadly, ridiculously reinvented. It's you BAB apologists who are either in denial or are willfully blind.
With the rise of the reformist challenge in the early 70s, the priesthood's worst fears were realised. They had to make the community "tight" and consolidate their hold and power over the community. Not only the suppression of dissent increased through baraat and other forms of harassment, but a new regime of lifestyle (dhadi topi etc.) was imposed on the community. The result: Born again Bohras - a meek people bludgeoned into mental slavery. The clergy today has them by their b....
The making of BAB not only predates Dolly (now dead) but also the Taliban. The cloning and talibanisation of the community has been achieved in one stroke. What a feat. What a racket.
In fact the racket is so massive that if it were not for clergy's ingenious use of "religion" to cover their rear ends, most of the 'royal family' would be in jail now. The clergy is defrauding people out of their money, their religion, their past, their memory.... and there are people who have the gall and the shamelessness to justify it all.
Qiyam, don't go on about 'wajib' 'wajib'..... this is not the frigging issue. Things imposed within religious institutions is bad enough but they are being imposed in every sphere of life. And that is a fact.
I'm fixated on 20 years because during this period the community has been transformed beyond recognition - and because the Bohra clergy is bent upon rewriting the past. Things were different before that.
Reformists know very well why the community has been so sadly, ridiculously reinvented. It's you BAB apologists who are either in denial or are willfully blind.
With the rise of the reformist challenge in the early 70s, the priesthood's worst fears were realised. They had to make the community "tight" and consolidate their hold and power over the community. Not only the suppression of dissent increased through baraat and other forms of harassment, but a new regime of lifestyle (dhadi topi etc.) was imposed on the community. The result: Born again Bohras - a meek people bludgeoned into mental slavery. The clergy today has them by their b....
The making of BAB not only predates Dolly (now dead) but also the Taliban. The cloning and talibanisation of the community has been achieved in one stroke. What a feat. What a racket.
In fact the racket is so massive that if it were not for clergy's ingenious use of "religion" to cover their rear ends, most of the 'royal family' would be in jail now. The clergy is defrauding people out of their money, their religion, their past, their memory.... and there are people who have the gall and the shamelessness to justify it all.
Qiyam, don't go on about 'wajib' 'wajib'..... this is not the frigging issue. Things imposed within religious institutions is bad enough but they are being imposed in every sphere of life. And that is a fact.
Re: Born Again Bohras
Dear Believer,
My question is exactly how did it become so "tight" ? I am almost scared to ask what you mean by "tight".
---Tight as in close in communication and understanding each other via various media (magazines, internect, etc.) which did not exist before.
It was not a coincidence but intimidating enforcement using safai chittis and baraat. Again, please do not ignore the question. Arguably these rules have existed all along, the question is, why the strict enforcement in the last 20 years ?
No one is checking it, merely reporting it to the authority that issues playing cards ("Safai Chitti"). It relegates you to a yellow card (provided you attend the mosque regularly and pay the $), otherwise RED it is.
--Again where are you ENFORCED. A safai chitti is regarding religious items like paying sabil, wajibat, etc....and it is only good for religious institutions. To a use the religious institutions (masjid, khanas,etc) you're expected to help support them. It is a LIE to say a safai chitti is based on beard, wearing ridha or topi outside the mosque, etc. If it were 90% of the bohras would be in the red for one or the other.
...but again you know all of this, but will ask for proof that all are to scared too provide (baraat), except for people on this board, and you don't believe us anyway.
---Again barat is on those who publicly oppose the dawat...not wearing a beard, ridha, etc. will not cause this.
My question is exactly how did it become so "tight" ? I am almost scared to ask what you mean by "tight".
---Tight as in close in communication and understanding each other via various media (magazines, internect, etc.) which did not exist before.
It was not a coincidence but intimidating enforcement using safai chittis and baraat. Again, please do not ignore the question. Arguably these rules have existed all along, the question is, why the strict enforcement in the last 20 years ?
No one is checking it, merely reporting it to the authority that issues playing cards ("Safai Chitti"). It relegates you to a yellow card (provided you attend the mosque regularly and pay the $), otherwise RED it is.
--Again where are you ENFORCED. A safai chitti is regarding religious items like paying sabil, wajibat, etc....and it is only good for religious institutions. To a use the religious institutions (masjid, khanas,etc) you're expected to help support them. It is a LIE to say a safai chitti is based on beard, wearing ridha or topi outside the mosque, etc. If it were 90% of the bohras would be in the red for one or the other.
...but again you know all of this, but will ask for proof that all are to scared too provide (baraat), except for people on this board, and you don't believe us anyway.
---Again barat is on those who publicly oppose the dawat...not wearing a beard, ridha, etc. will not cause this.
Re: Born Again Bohras
Simon, for all the differences that we might have, this one we do agree on, and that is the use of a mother language at home.But then why are we prohibited in using the Gujrati translation during some of our ceremonies?
Re: Born Again Bohras
Dear Humsafar,
Giving instructions to community to speak Gujarati is one thing. To force the community to wear dadhi, rida, saya etc under pain of punishment is quite another.
--Again this is false statement. Outside of the religious institutions...no one is forced to wear ridha, siya, etc...punishment or other.
I'm fixated on 20 years because during this period the community has been transformed beyond recognition - and because the Bohra clergy is bent upon rewriting the past. Things were different before that.
--you are fixed on twenty years ago...yet know very little about what was going on in the community...based on your statement. I would agree with Br. Simon description...my own mother was so "revolutionized" that she wore a sari..which my any regard is a hindu dress. My grandfather wore a siyo, beard, and feto..and so did his and the other. The jamat was a heart blood of the community and everyone did what they could to help each other. Now everyone look to see how they can help themselves! How can someone like you who know little of recognition of the dawat before the past 20 years...to comment on what it is now.
Qiyam, don't go on about 'wajib' 'wajib'..... this is not the frigging issue. Things imposed within religious institutions is bad enough but they are being imposed in every sphere of life. And that is a fact.
---Based on what is it a fact. I quote again 90% of the bohras don't wear even a kurta...most don't wear a beard. The vast majority of women don't wear ridhas outside the religious institutions. I have been to every major city where bohras are..in America, UK, Africa, Mumbai, Ahmedbad, Surat, Karachi, etc. Only Mombasa actually enforces a strict dress code. None of the others even comes close. And it effect no one!
So again what is your point??? Just to make stuff up to argue about?
Giving instructions to community to speak Gujarati is one thing. To force the community to wear dadhi, rida, saya etc under pain of punishment is quite another.
--Again this is false statement. Outside of the religious institutions...no one is forced to wear ridha, siya, etc...punishment or other.
I'm fixated on 20 years because during this period the community has been transformed beyond recognition - and because the Bohra clergy is bent upon rewriting the past. Things were different before that.
--you are fixed on twenty years ago...yet know very little about what was going on in the community...based on your statement. I would agree with Br. Simon description...my own mother was so "revolutionized" that she wore a sari..which my any regard is a hindu dress. My grandfather wore a siyo, beard, and feto..and so did his and the other. The jamat was a heart blood of the community and everyone did what they could to help each other. Now everyone look to see how they can help themselves! How can someone like you who know little of recognition of the dawat before the past 20 years...to comment on what it is now.
Qiyam, don't go on about 'wajib' 'wajib'..... this is not the frigging issue. Things imposed within religious institutions is bad enough but they are being imposed in every sphere of life. And that is a fact.
---Based on what is it a fact. I quote again 90% of the bohras don't wear even a kurta...most don't wear a beard. The vast majority of women don't wear ridhas outside the religious institutions. I have been to every major city where bohras are..in America, UK, Africa, Mumbai, Ahmedbad, Surat, Karachi, etc. Only Mombasa actually enforces a strict dress code. None of the others even comes close. And it effect no one!
So again what is your point??? Just to make stuff up to argue about?
Re: Born Again Bohras
The point is that the clergy is making up new things - wajib or not - to control and browbeat bohras.
I'm old enough to know how things were 20 years ago - so stop your self-righteous yapping.
A new fatwa: sari is a Hindu dress. Does it mean it's not wajib???
I'm old enough to know how things were 20 years ago - so stop your self-righteous yapping.
A new fatwa: sari is a Hindu dress. Does it mean it's not wajib???
Re: Born Again Bohras
Qiyam,
It is a LIE to say a safai chitti is based on beard, wearing ridha or topi outside the mosque, etc
At this point you have lost all credibility. It is a lie to say otherwise and I know this from personal experience. You are counting on the fact that I cannot cite real-world examples ("baraat").
In that, you are right.....
To a use the religious institutions (masjid, khanas,etc) you're expected to help support them.
I agree, except that when confronted with what happens to all the money "gifted" to the Dai, you claim he supports masjids, khanas etc. So the question is, what then happens to the money collected by the Dai and his extended family ?
It is a LIE to say a safai chitti is based on beard, wearing ridha or topi outside the mosque, etc
At this point you have lost all credibility. It is a lie to say otherwise and I know this from personal experience. You are counting on the fact that I cannot cite real-world examples ("baraat").
In that, you are right.....
To a use the religious institutions (masjid, khanas,etc) you're expected to help support them.
I agree, except that when confronted with what happens to all the money "gifted" to the Dai, you claim he supports masjids, khanas etc. So the question is, what then happens to the money collected by the Dai and his extended family ?
Re: Born Again Bohras
Dear Humsafar,
I know you know what 20 years ago was like...I said you don't know what it was before that....this is why I gave the examples I did.
And again it seems if you never heard it...it must be an innovation. Well your never a historian nor an alim. So there may be a huge amount of info you never heard. Did you even know there are about 15000 bohras in Sana 20 years ago...did you know where Yemen was 20 years ago?
And it you who has over and over again claimed authority of the past 20 years...based solely on what you know and experienced. This doesn't make you and authority on anything.
I know you know what 20 years ago was like...I said you don't know what it was before that....this is why I gave the examples I did.
And again it seems if you never heard it...it must be an innovation. Well your never a historian nor an alim. So there may be a huge amount of info you never heard. Did you even know there are about 15000 bohras in Sana 20 years ago...did you know where Yemen was 20 years ago?
And it you who has over and over again claimed authority of the past 20 years...based solely on what you know and experienced. This doesn't make you and authority on anything.
Re: Born Again Bohras
Dear Believer
"At this point you have lost all credibility. It is a lie to say otherwise and I know this from personal experience. You are counting on the fact that I cannot cite real-world examples ("baraat")."
--I know for a FACT that barat is NOT those who don't wear a ridha, topi, etc. outside the mosque. It may be encouraged...but you are not osterized for it. If this were a lie that 2/3 of Mumbai would be in barat. Majority of Karachi would be in barat. All of America/Europe would be in barat.
I agree, except that when confronted with what happens to all the money "gifted" to the Dai, you claim he supports masjids, khanas etc. So the question is, what then happens to the money collected by the Dai and his extended family ?
---This has nothing to do with sabil, wajibat, etc. The money you gift (via salams) is a gift (najwa). Sabil is for the jamat and wajibat is for the Imam and Dai to use as they see appropriate. Sabil is required by the jamat. Wajibat is required by the religion. Part of the wajibat is the Imam or Dai right to use and keep. At this point..it is not your money to question its use.
"At this point you have lost all credibility. It is a lie to say otherwise and I know this from personal experience. You are counting on the fact that I cannot cite real-world examples ("baraat")."
--I know for a FACT that barat is NOT those who don't wear a ridha, topi, etc. outside the mosque. It may be encouraged...but you are not osterized for it. If this were a lie that 2/3 of Mumbai would be in barat. Majority of Karachi would be in barat. All of America/Europe would be in barat.
I agree, except that when confronted with what happens to all the money "gifted" to the Dai, you claim he supports masjids, khanas etc. So the question is, what then happens to the money collected by the Dai and his extended family ?
---This has nothing to do with sabil, wajibat, etc. The money you gift (via salams) is a gift (najwa). Sabil is for the jamat and wajibat is for the Imam and Dai to use as they see appropriate. Sabil is required by the jamat. Wajibat is required by the religion. Part of the wajibat is the Imam or Dai right to use and keep. At this point..it is not your money to question its use.
Re: Born Again Bohras
Br Qiyam, you do agree that Mombasa Jamaat enforces a strict dress code.Why the double standard, different jamaat,differnt rules. People are forced to adhere to the dress code, or face baraat.Ladies/girls go out of house in rida and as soon as they enter the office/workplace, remove it and go about in skirts, and are made fun of, by other communites. Why are all these chamchas and chaprases allowed to make rules to suit them, in the name of religion, and why is Kothar not doing anything?Anything to do with money,power,etc?
Re: Born Again Bohras
Qiyam,
--I know for a FACT that barat is NOT those who don't wear a ridha, topi, etc. outside the mosque.
You are correct, but I was referring to proof that the Safai Chitti is based on how you dress outside of the mosque as well. If I were to name the Aamil, Masjid, and the individuals that were told why they were yellow carded, then baraat and/or harrasment would follow.
I know this to be a fact, and you don't have to agree with me.
--I know for a FACT that barat is NOT those who don't wear a ridha, topi, etc. outside the mosque.
You are correct, but I was referring to proof that the Safai Chitti is based on how you dress outside of the mosque as well. If I were to name the Aamil, Masjid, and the individuals that were told why they were yellow carded, then baraat and/or harrasment would follow.
I know this to be a fact, and you don't have to agree with me.
Re: Born Again Bohras
Dear Believer,
My point is exactly that...the safai chitti color is based on your association with the jamat and dawat (payment of sabil and wajibat) and not how you dress outside the masjid. I live in America. I don't know one person in our jamat other than the amil who where a kurta in public. I know maybe a handful of men who wear topis in public and the same number of women who where ridhas in public. This varies greatly per the community and nation. In Gujarat, most women wear ridha outside and small minority of men wear topis. Not because of enforcement...but because it is publicly accepted. The men still rarely wear kurtas.
Dear Anwar,
I have never been to Mombasa...but I have relatives there. I don't know why. I know Nairobi doesn't have this enforcement. Maybe they as a jamat accepted it.
My point is exactly that...the safai chitti color is based on your association with the jamat and dawat (payment of sabil and wajibat) and not how you dress outside the masjid. I live in America. I don't know one person in our jamat other than the amil who where a kurta in public. I know maybe a handful of men who wear topis in public and the same number of women who where ridhas in public. This varies greatly per the community and nation. In Gujarat, most women wear ridha outside and small minority of men wear topis. Not because of enforcement...but because it is publicly accepted. The men still rarely wear kurtas.
Dear Anwar,
I have never been to Mombasa...but I have relatives there. I don't know why. I know Nairobi doesn't have this enforcement. Maybe they as a jamat accepted it.
Re: Born Again Bohras
qiyam, don't try to confuse the issue. What I'm trying to say is very simple - the clergy is forcing Bohras to do certain things. Such force, imposition, compulsion was never there before. Not in the entire history of the community. If people wore certain thigs or behaved in a certain way, it was all voluntary.
Nobody was forced to do anything. Which is not the case now.
Being a historian, amil, authority has nothing to do with the issue. Even if I were, I would have to be a real croocked one to earn your and your masters' respect.
Nobody was forced to do anything. Which is not the case now.
Being a historian, amil, authority has nothing to do with the issue. Even if I were, I would have to be a real croocked one to earn your and your masters' respect.
Re: Born Again Bohras
Policies of the BABs:
"When Shezada. Mufaddal Bhaisaheb started pressuring mumineen to do Vajebaat 2 times more, 3 times more, and some even 10 times more this year in Ramadan, this group supported the idea no matter how absurd it was. <B>Low-income mumineen were pressured to give Vajebaat of amounts that constituted 50% of their years income or their safai chithi was refused!</B> Aamils and Khidmat Guzars were made to pay extreme amounts than their last years Vajebaat, and all those who did not have the money were given loans. Vajebaat means what is Vajeb on what you have, so if you have to take a loan, then you never had it in the first place! And where will these so called Khidmat Guzars get the money from? Obviously from the community. I cant wait to see what happens next year! Double again?"
[url=http://f_januwala.tripod.com/fitnat/id2.html]http://f_januwala.tripod.com/fitnat/id2.html[/url]
"When Shezada. Mufaddal Bhaisaheb started pressuring mumineen to do Vajebaat 2 times more, 3 times more, and some even 10 times more this year in Ramadan, this group supported the idea no matter how absurd it was. <B>Low-income mumineen were pressured to give Vajebaat of amounts that constituted 50% of their years income or their safai chithi was refused!</B> Aamils and Khidmat Guzars were made to pay extreme amounts than their last years Vajebaat, and all those who did not have the money were given loans. Vajebaat means what is Vajeb on what you have, so if you have to take a loan, then you never had it in the first place! And where will these so called Khidmat Guzars get the money from? Obviously from the community. I cant wait to see what happens next year! Double again?"
[url=http://f_januwala.tripod.com/fitnat/id2.html]http://f_januwala.tripod.com/fitnat/id2.html[/url]
Re: Born Again Bohras
Dear Humsafar,
Again the same point I made earlier...other than in the religious institutions...what are you forced to do that affect you standing with the community (outside of defaming it)?? NOTHING.
They are forcing bohras to uphold the Quran and sunnah with in the religious institutions only!!
"If people wore certain thigs or behaved in a certain way, it was all voluntary."
I beg to differ...before the past twenty years bohras wore fetos and shirvani to the majalis...while women wore joris.
Again the same point I made earlier...other than in the religious institutions...what are you forced to do that affect you standing with the community (outside of defaming it)?? NOTHING.
They are forcing bohras to uphold the Quran and sunnah with in the religious institutions only!!
"If people wore certain thigs or behaved in a certain way, it was all voluntary."
I beg to differ...before the past twenty years bohras wore fetos and shirvani to the majalis...while women wore joris.
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Muslim First
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Re: Born Again Bohras
. Nuggets from : [url=http://f_januwala.tripod.com/fitnat/id2.html]http://f_januwala.tripod.com/fitnat/id2.html[/url]
It seems there is a cult within a cult.
.
Very Interesting!!!!!!!Mohammad Hasan of Misr said in the Izhar-e-Aqidat Majlis in Saify Masjid Mumbai that we dont want 1, 2, 3, we just believe in one. Is this not a little bit like the Sunni Muslims! Is it not true that Imam-uz-Zamans presence in Satr is by these 3 Rutbas-Dai, his zayre dast Mazoon and Mukasir.
Taizoon's claim that he had to resort to these means because he could not do Araz to Aqa Moula TUS means that he (taizoon) believes that the Dai is unaware of the situation, if the situation exists, and that if we believe that the Dai can be unaware, then we believe that the Dai is not infallible (infallible means Masoom/Ismat). This is the weakest belief one can have. The Dai is aware of everything the almighty makes him aware of and sees by the light of Allah and Imam, but also lets some things be as they are for Hikmat purposes.
The Human factor is there, but the Dai is greater than Malaikat because he does what he does even being in this Human Body, where else even Malaikat have faltered after being totally spiritual (as per bayan in Adam Nabi history). The Dai is infallible, yes,
What next everyone wonders? Now that this cult is spreading lies about Mazoon Moula
It seems there is a cult within a cult.
.
Re: Born Again Bohras
"Maybe they as a jamat accept it" meaning what? The 3000+ strong community held an election and voted to accept the enforcement?Originally posted by qiyam:
I have never been to Mombasa...but I have relatives there. I don't know why. I know Nairobi doesn't have this enforcement. Maybe they as a jamat accepted it.
No. The amil usually from India is appointed by the kothar. The jamat committee is also appointed by kothar and in any case they seldom have any power to question the amil. Therefore the whole system represents the interests of the kothar. The jamat as a whole has no say in this. This is the same in every jamat.
So if something is ENFORCED for Mombasa jamat it is because the kothar decided so. If some rules are relaxed for other jamats it is because its in the best interest of the kothar to keep the double-standards.
Re: Born Again Bohras
So at last you admit that "they" are "forcing" bohras. "Force" is the key word. It's immaterial to me what is being forced and where.Originally posted by qiyam:
[QB]
They are forcing bohras to uphold the Quran and sunnah with in the religious institutions only!!
QB]
Two points:
1) by any standard of decent human conduct, nobody has the right to force anything on anybody. the very concept of force implies inequality, authority and oppession. Anything achieved by force is tainted and is not worth having - especially if its to do with religion and spirituality. The Quran nowhere says that islam and its tenets should be "forced" on its followers.
2) why did "they" start "forcing" bohras now - in recent years. Earliers dais did not see it fit or felt complled to do such "forcing". So why now?
To reiterate my central point: all this "forcing" has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with keeping control and power over the community.
Re: Born Again Bohras
Qiyam,
My point is exactly that...
Well then you lost me.
Exactly what are you saying, that Safai Chitti has nothing to do with how you dress outside the mosque ? If so, then you are wrong. I am not speaking of baraat, but Safai Chitti. When it is reported to the Aamils, or more importantly to the $hieks, you get yellow carded, as long as you are paying.
I live in America. I don't know one person in our jamat other than the amil who where a kurta in public.
That does not make your point, it simply means that in your Jamaat people are more liberal and don't report these people to the $hieks or of course the Aamil.
My point is exactly that...
Well then you lost me.
Exactly what are you saying, that Safai Chitti has nothing to do with how you dress outside the mosque ? If so, then you are wrong. I am not speaking of baraat, but Safai Chitti. When it is reported to the Aamils, or more importantly to the $hieks, you get yellow carded, as long as you are paying.
I live in America. I don't know one person in our jamat other than the amil who where a kurta in public.
That does not make your point, it simply means that in your Jamaat people are more liberal and don't report these people to the $hieks or of course the Aamil.
Re: Born Again Bohras
Dear Muslim,
1) by any standard of decent human conduct, nobody has the right to force anything on anybody.
---this is your opinion...which you have the right to, but nothing to do with Islam. Every mosque, whether bohra or sunni or shiah, have certain rules and regulations dictated by the faith the expouse. Sunni will not men and women to enter from the same door. Co-minging is not allowed. Majority of twelver mosque require the women to wear a burqa. The azan, salat, etc is done a certain way. Your not force to do anything...but in the bohra mosque...you must follow the rules set by the bohra (by Sayedna).
The Quran nowhere says that islam and its tenets should be "forced" on its followers.
--again a partially false concept. Islam per the Quran requires many things...is called adherance to the shariat...and is to be accepted by the muslim. The rules have always been there and were enforced when the ability was there.
2) why did "they" start "forcing" bohras now - in recent years. Earliers dais did not see it fit or felt complled to do such "forcing". So why now?
---Earlier Dais in India had little influence on the community at large...let alone communication to the communities. And the earlier communities I would say were more adherant to the shariat then now...so the FORCE was not needed. The Yemen Dais were local to the community there and had great influence on the followers. You keep saying FORCE...as though what your being FORCE to do is wrong...it is shariat..not some made up rules...so within the religious institutions your asked to uphold the tenets of the faith.
To reiterate my central point: all this "forcing" has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with keeping control and power over the community.
--Again where is your life controlled. Most go to the masjid for prayers and majalis (maybe once a month). Outside what goes on there...where is it FORCING you to do anything.
1) by any standard of decent human conduct, nobody has the right to force anything on anybody.
---this is your opinion...which you have the right to, but nothing to do with Islam. Every mosque, whether bohra or sunni or shiah, have certain rules and regulations dictated by the faith the expouse. Sunni will not men and women to enter from the same door. Co-minging is not allowed. Majority of twelver mosque require the women to wear a burqa. The azan, salat, etc is done a certain way. Your not force to do anything...but in the bohra mosque...you must follow the rules set by the bohra (by Sayedna).
The Quran nowhere says that islam and its tenets should be "forced" on its followers.
--again a partially false concept. Islam per the Quran requires many things...is called adherance to the shariat...and is to be accepted by the muslim. The rules have always been there and were enforced when the ability was there.
2) why did "they" start "forcing" bohras now - in recent years. Earliers dais did not see it fit or felt complled to do such "forcing". So why now?
---Earlier Dais in India had little influence on the community at large...let alone communication to the communities. And the earlier communities I would say were more adherant to the shariat then now...so the FORCE was not needed. The Yemen Dais were local to the community there and had great influence on the followers. You keep saying FORCE...as though what your being FORCE to do is wrong...it is shariat..not some made up rules...so within the religious institutions your asked to uphold the tenets of the faith.
To reiterate my central point: all this "forcing" has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with keeping control and power over the community.
--Again where is your life controlled. Most go to the masjid for prayers and majalis (maybe once a month). Outside what goes on there...where is it FORCING you to do anything.