Status of Mohammad and Ali in Bohraism

[incredible]

"Let there arise from you a group of people inviting to what is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong; these are the ones who will be successful." (3:104)

I am blessed to be from this group/sect

ALHUMDOLILLAH

[Deerseye]

This is a honest query to Silver Tongue. Bro could u state which surah and Ayat in the Holy Quran refers to Ali Saab. I am still in very preliminary stage of understanding the translation, and pls do not take offence at this honest query,thanks.

[silvertongue]

Sure.. There are many Ayats. For a start The Ayat of Tatheer (Purity) in Surah 33:33. Ayat of Mubahala in Surah 3:61, Ayat of Wilayat in Surah 5:55. and so on... Oh and one more.. as i quoted before the Ayat of Loving the nearest kin.. BTW Im leaving the office so wont be able to quote all of it now. But i think these might be enough as for now..

Jazakallah.

[silvertongue]

"Let there arise from you a group of people inviting to what is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong; these are the ones who will be successful." (3:104)

I am blessed to be from this group/sect

ALHUMDOLILLAH

Alhamdolillah Happy for you. All should do the same as commanded. But there are many other commands to follow as well. More important as well related to historical events and their importance in Quran and its connection to the Prophet as well.

[anajmi]

For a start The Ayat of Tatheer (Purity) in Surah 33:33

33:33 refers to the wives of the prophet (saw). Here is what it says.

33:33 And abide quietly in your homes, and do not flaunt your charms as they used to flaunt them in the old days of pagan ignorance; and be constant in prayer, and render the purifying dues, and pay heed unto God and His Apostle: for God only wants to remove from you all that might be loathsome, O you members of the [Prophet’s] household, and to purify you to utmost purity.

I am not sure what would be the point of asking Ali not to flaunt his charms!!

3:61 And if anyone should argue with thee about this [truth] after all the knowledge that has come unto thee, say: "Come! Let us summon our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves; and then let us pray [together] humbly and ardently, and let us invoke God's curse upon those [of us] who are telling a lie."

3:61 was a challenge to the visiting Christians and Jews (I think). Where they were both asked to join the prophet in inviting the wrath of Allah on their nearest and dearest ones if they were lying.

[anajmi]

seeker,

I had no idea that you considered yourself from the Ahlul Bayt. I am sorry for having abused you.

[anajmi]

silvertongue

ev noticed that some of my posts has quite created a debate here. Although what I wrote or lets say copied some texts from an article or book was not of my own.. It depends on belief.

When you copy and paste something from somewhere, don't you first read it? I am assuming you have since realized your mistake. Next time, you need to make sure you are posting something that you believe in!!

[silvertongue]

Im not like you anajmi... I respect the beliefs of evryone here.. and im true to my belief. I dont accuse about those imp personalities. Nor im interested much in your discussions anymore coz its like explaining a rock.. i knw im being a lil rude here but its a fact. Sorry to say that. Im trying to keep this topics as liberal and calm as possible.. But u wont understand it anyways... I feel pity that ur mahroom from the Love of Aal E Mohammed.

[silvertongue]

silvertongue

ev noticed that some of my posts has quite created a debate here. Although what I wrote or lets say copied some texts from an article or book was not of my own.. It depends on belief.

When you copy and paste something from somewhere, don't you first read it? I am assuming you have since realized your mistake. Next time, you need to make sure you are posting something that you believe in!!

And yes I did read it.. and i knw that it was correct and i believe in it.. that Ali is the master of Jibraeel and all other previous prophets except RasulALLAH.. Yah u can say Im a mad Shia here.. but hey thats what I am.. u can call me Kaafir.. id be pleased to be titled that in the love of Ali.. Loving Ali is Imaan and hating him is Kufr.. And if u think that loving Ali makes one kaafir than guess uev changed the whole definition of Imaan.. Pity on u again that you wont understand such things. Its always Allah Rasool And then Ali.. please giys understand this simple thing. Having all these exalted attributes are given by none other than Allah and his Rasool has shown this many times.. Now if u ask me the proof.. i d say so and so hadiths, ul say its wrong. And if i show smethng frm sunni hadiths ud say its temperedand follow Quran. And Quran is all context... Dont u think u guys are trying to escape the truth whatsoever.. its better u stick to ir belief and we shia to ours coz there hasnt been any solution to this since 1400 years and a guy like you wont make any difference here..

[anajmi]

Actually, loving Ali and worshipping Ali are two different things. Worshipping Ali would make you a kafir and Ali would abandon you on the day of judgement. Since you have clarified that you believe in khutbatul bayan and it requires you to worship Ali (as I have pointed out in a couple of posts earlier), I don't think there is much to be said in this matter.

[silvertongue]

Well thats what ur thinking abt me and my belief.. whereas I worship none but Allah and testify that Mohammed is his messenger and Ali is his wali and wasi un Nabi... U can believe what u want abt me... Go ahead..

[anajmi]

U can believe what u want abt me

Actually I believe about you what you tell. You told me that you believe khutbatul bayan correct? So according to khutbatul bayan, Ali is the one who needs to be worshipped. Here is an excerpt from khutbatul bayan that I posted earlier.

I am both the worshipper and
the worshipped.

This is from the link that you provided.

[silvertongue]

True... But there are many hidden meanings as well which is not clearly mentioned there. Like in this quote Ali said," He is the Worshipper meaning Worshipper of Allah and being worshipped might have another meaning". Coz definitely its ALI who said this. The most loving servant of Allah cant claim anything like that unless theres a logical meaning. So Being worshipped doesnt mean he is Allah or People worship Ali.. Could be another meaning and as I am NOT the most knowledgable person in the world like YOU, I simply dont knw abt being worshipped concept here. When Ill knw ill get back to you. Till then..Continue ur abusing.. Thats what nowadays people do in their free time instead of finding answers logically.

[incredible]

First get rid of concept of "HIDDEN MEANINGS"

QURAAN is crystal clear and descendent for a lay men, there is nothing HIDDEN every thing is as clear as zamzam water.


this whole concept of "HIDDEN" meaning is innovation my different sect leaders to keep people busy fighting with each other.

[silvertongue]

Well I dont agree with you at this point. But just for argument sake if I accept it that K theres no Hidden Meaning.. Then I think I dont have that Wisdom to understand it.. Coz thers a difference between knowledge and wisdom. Hope you got my point here. and when im able to find the wisdom behind this quote.. Ill come back with it.

Jazakallah.

[incredible]

Well I dont agree with you at this point. But just for argument sake if I accept it that K theres no Hidden Meaning.. Then I think I dont have that Wisdom to understand it.. Coz thers a difference between knowledge and wisdom. Hope you got my point here. and when im able to find the wisdom behind this quote.. Ill come back with it.

Jazakallah.

if you ever get stuck with any ayat and start thinking there is some "HIDDEN" meaning to it, contact me, by the will of ALLAH I will try to explain in my power. INSHALLAH.

JazakALLAH

[silvertongue]

Thats good.. Thanks bro.. Btw there is one thing though.. Do you know the meanings of Alif Laam Meem... I bet Quran is very clear as u say.. Explain me what are these words and what do they mean..

Jazakallah..

[incredible]

Thats good.. Thanks bro.. Btw there is one thing though.. Do you know the meanings of Alif Laam Meem... I bet Quran is very clear as u say.. Explain me what are these words and what do they mean..

Jazakallah..

there is also an ayat which says "those who has defect in heart goes behind "mutasabeh ayat", but for those who accept QURAAN as it is find it easy to understand"


ALIM LAAM MIM and such first ayats are known to ALLAH and let keep it as it is.

practice more about the clear instruction of QURAN and INshallah if ALLAH will he will clear more knowledge for you.

[silvertongue]

Okay... Got it... Thanks... You want some clear Ayats.. How abt the Verse of Mubahala (3:61). Where Ourlselves is related to Rasulallah and Ali.

[incredible]

this ayat was meant for kuffars of arab to challenge them if they are correct they should bring their family and Muhammed(s) should bring his family.

and Muhammed(s) took FATEMA,ALI AND HASSAN HUSSAIN.

and their is not doubt in muslim world that these personalities are from family of prophet.

what is so hidden about it?

[silvertongue]

Look bro this arguments and discussions are useless. Coz theres no end to it. People have tried this since 1400 years. Forget history even at the time of the Caliphs this was the issue. Tell me one simple thing, if you were at the time of Hazrat Ali. in that era. and during the War of Jamal, Whom you wouldev support. Ayesha or Maula Ali (A.S). There are numerous sayings of Prophet about their wives. Ayats about Ayesha and Hafsa in Quran. And those whoev known the Ayats know their true position very well. So lets be simple here. And tell me, Which side you would choose. If you were to Choose between Ali and Ayesha.

(P.s: Rasulallahs most famous Hadiths on Ghadeer: "The Truth is with Ali and Ali is with the Truth. They both will not seperate untill the Day of Qayamat. Oh Allah befriend to those who are friend to Ali and be his enemy who are enemies to Ali".)

[silvertongue]

this ayat was meant for kuffars of arab to challenge them if they are correct they should bring their family and Muhammed(s) should bring his family.

and Muhammed(s) took FATEMA,ALI AND HASSAN HUSSAIN.

and their is not doubt in muslim world that these personalities are from family of prophet.

what is so hidden about it?

just clearing the exalted position Allah gave them all so that muslims could recognize their purest form and position.

[incredible]

this ayat was meant for kuffars of arab to challenge them if they are correct they should bring their family and Muhammed(s) should bring his family.

and Muhammed(s) took FATEMA,ALI AND HASSAN HUSSAIN.

and their is not doubt in muslim world that these personalities are from family of prophet.

what is so hidden about it?

just clearing the exalted position Allah gave them all so that muslims could recognize their purest form and position.

all muslims does, who doesnt?

problem arises when some group of people starts worsiping them...

[silvertongue]

No body worships them buddy.. And those who do are either creating troubles for themselves or too stubborn to compromise with their emotions. These all things has nothing to do with worship. No body bows to Rasulallah or Ali. All muslims bow to Allah only. thats clear like water. e.g. Nusairis..

[anajmi]

True... But there are many hidden meanings as well which is not clearly mentioned there. Like in this quote Ali said," He is the Worshipper meaning Worshipper of Allah and being worshipped might have another meaning".

Let us not confuse the Quran with this piece written by a human for another human. The Quran has hidden meanings, but the Quran has itself claims that it has hidden meanings and that people shouldn't go after its hidden meanings. Khutbatul Bayan makes no such claims. So to say that khutbatul bayan has hidden meanings is naïve and almost stupid. That is like me saying that I didn't pass my history exam because my history book had hidden meanings that I couldn't understand.

This is something else that khutbatul bayan claims

Ali is the first and Ali is the last.

This is not just shirk but kufr. Allah says in the Quran that Allah is the first and Allah is the last. How can two entities be first? Only one can be first. So if Allah is the first, then khutbatul bayan is lying. And if Ali is the first, then Ali is Allah, and you are not a muslim anymore.

Or is there a hidden meaning somewhere over here? May be first actually means second in the hidden meaning?

Now, you might shout at the top of your voice that you do not worship Ali, but actually, you do.

Consider this, can you still "love" Ali if you were to find out that the entire Khutbatul Bayan is a piece of fiction? No. You won't love Ali anymore cause he is no longer the master of Musa and Jibraeel. So, you see, you do not just "love" Ali. You worship him. The only people who love Ali and maintain a clear separation between him and Allah in worship are the people of Sunnah. They consider khutbatul Bayan to be a piece of fiction and do not need it to love Ali.

[badrijanab]

The Quran has hidden meanings, but the Quran has itself claims that it has hidden meanings and that people shouldn't go after its hidden meanings.

Which verse of Quran has mentioned your above contention in bold red?

[anajmi]

I will give you a hint. It is in Surah Ale Imran. Read the first 10 ayahs, and see if you can figure it out.

[salim]

Everyone of us feel that he is right and he is on Siratal Mustakim. Is it not possible that all of us might be correct and Allah will judge all of us based on what we have understood and whom we have followed, based on our background and experience. I think the important thing is to make a sincere effort. There is no way anyone can understand Allah completely. We will only understand Allah based on our past experience and intellect.

I don't think any Salafi will sincerely believe that Ali is walli of Allah and start of Imamat and is trying to just oppose Ali so that he can go to hell. In the same fashion no Shia will sincerely believe that Ali was just a normal human being and 4th khalif and still elevates Alis position to Imam of the time, so that he can go to hell. I think Allah has created us different, so we have different point of views. If one point of view would have been better than rest of the other point of views, the entire world would have had same point of view.

Our hand could not have worked like it does now, if it had all same fingers. It is not wise to stretch your thumb, so that it can be as tall as the middle finger. Our hand would loose the power if, pinky gets stretched or if middle finger gets suppressed.

Allah has made us different so that we can learn from each other and respect each other. The only place I think which most of us will say is clearly wrong is when one is forced or killed other to make his point. I am an ismaili and my believe may not be same as your, but both of our believes may be correct. May Allah guide all of us to the correct path.

[anajmi]

Let us not hide our issues behind the garb of "Allah will judge" and the rest of the rhetoric you posted. Allah will judge, but he will judge based upon the guidance he has provided. If you continue to go against the edicts and then say that "Allah will judge", then what kind of judgment are you expecting?

Everyone of us feel that he is right and he is on Siratal Mustakim.

Yes. But everyone is not right. For eg. if you claim that Ali is the first and the last, then you are wrong. Plain and simple. There is no grey area over here. There is no "Allah will judge".

Faith in Ali's position is not a requirement of Islam. It is a requirement of shiaism.

Allah has made us different so that we can learn from each other and respect each other.

There is a difference when I ask you to learn from the Quran and you ask me to learn from Khutbatul bayan!!

[ghulam muhammed]

Iam a firm believer of Mola Ali (a.s.) but I still think twice before accepting any of the so called quotes/versions alleged to have been said by the great soul because some of which are outright ridiculous and I firmly believe that the same must not have been said by Mola Ali (a.s.) himself under any circumstances because he was very much aware of the tenets of Islam and its holy book Quran, much more then the present day so called mullas, muftis and ayatollahs. He could have never said any such thing which would have elevated him to a position higher then Allah (swt) and His Rasool (s.a.w.). !!!