The Emperor's New Clothes

[kalim]

Everyone knows of the story of the Emperor's new clothes. In reality, the Emperor was naked. Although everyone could see it for themselves no one dared point out the obvious, for they thought that if not them, someone else did see the clothes and all they needed to do was pretend that they could see the clothes too. So the charade went on. People wrote voluminous treatises on how beautiful the embroidery was, collected hadith of courtiers on the matter, wrote tafsirs and even made not believing in the beautiful new suit of the Emperor a crime, punishable by death. One who pointed out that the Emperor was naked would be told, "he only appears naked to you because you do not believe". Compare with "there are no contradiction in my favorite scripture, they only appear so do disbelievers". Or with "no one but believers can understand (see) my scripture (Emperor's glory)".

Such is the state of fanatical and literalistic believers. For bohras their emperor is celebrating his birthday in pomp and glory, on money accumulated from illegal and coercive taxes. For some strange reason he is interested in iftitaa of things which have been iftiaat-ed a dozen times before. Keep the moolah rolling, says maula, so I can continue to adorn dead people's graves and tombs with gold and gems. Why do I care if many of my people live in poverty? How will my glory be proclaimed if I have a quiet and thoughtful ceremony instead?

Now that tabudaat are finally coming to an end, I hope the bohras will get a break from non-stop mataam, darees and jamaan and get some time to reflect on what they really achieved in the last forty days. Do you find yourself spiritually richer or just several pounds heavier? Have you learned to be better humans or just slaves of your demi-god? Or are you simply getting better at abjecting yourself to another human being, letting him run more and more of your life and abdicating you own intelligence? I wonder where all the fanatics disappear when asked to justify the atrocious and materialistic behavior of their malua and his administration?

[Humsafar]

Kalim, with this one post you've managed to rile fanatics of all varieties. I can't wait to see how they dump on you now.

Regarding 'tabu'daat, I'm told that the orthos went crazy with the celebrtions in Udaipur. Throughout the 40 days there were functions and events and jamans much the like "jubilee" celebrations of ancient times, the only difference being that here slaves were not celebrating their freedom but just the oppostite - their slavery. On the even of Sayedna's birthday, the local Amil went around from mohlla to mohlla cutting cakes and pocketing fat salaam envelopes. He was garlanded and toasted as if it were his own birthday. And as soon the cake was cut the bohras swooped on it like a herd of sinners eager to partake of aqa moula's limitless barkaat. I'm sure even a shattered peasant society would behave with more dignity.

The end of 'tabu'daat will come as a great relief to the people who have endured this tamashaa from the sidelines.

[SBM]

Asalaaam Walaikum,
Dear All,
we are running Burhani Books Association in Jogeshwari (Mumbai City) since more than 5 years, with the grace of gods and aaka maula (t.u.s) we are helping out the needy Mumineen Farzand's with books/text required for the schools,colleges & Other cources, we have the niyat to help with books for Dini taalim as well as the some education fees help to the needy people, in this regards we would like to have some earning sources for the committee, i would like if some one can help us out with different programs and source of income which we can utilise for the committee.

i would really appreciate if some of you who are already the part of this type of organisation can help us with some information for source of funds for the same.

Khuda Taala Aaka Mulana ni Umra Sharif ne Daraaz ane Daraaz KArjo
please do contact us:
Burhani Books Asssociation
Jogeshwari (East) - Mumbai
0091 9867933589
hozefa.jawadwala@...
karampurawala@...


Regards,

Hozefa Abbas Jawadwala
JOgeshwari - Mumbai
B.E Electronics.
[
B]ABOVE IS THE POST FROM MALUMAAT GROUP, PIGGY,FROGGY,BIRDIE AND GULF COULD THE MONEY SPENT ON THIS GRANDEOUR GUARD SHOW IN MUMBAI COULD HAVE BEEN BETTER UTILIZED FOR THE ABOVE MENTIONED POST[/B]

[porus]

What astonishes me that people will claim that they believe in the Quran, without having read it. And I am not talking here about parrot-like recitation that most Bohras engage in.

The reason why they say it is that they are being told by their Mullas and Moulanas what it is that the Quran says. And we all know that Sunnis believe the Bohra interpretation to be false and Bohras believe that the Sunni interpretation is false.

And Mullas and Moulanas like nothing better than this. They can keep proper rein on their leashes. And they can use them to play havoc with their lives by pitting one sect with another. Yet, these Muslims do not, and cannot, have the intimacy with the Quran born of deep knowledge that comes only after studying it by themselves.,

I would like believers to resolve one of the many difficulties I have with Quran. In a number of verses Quran claims itself to very clear and easy to understand. And yet, it is impossible to have good understanding of it without scholars, hadith and tafseer, even if you happen to be good in your knowledge of Quranic Arabic. Believers will say we do not need to understand it, "It is from our Lord, and we believe in it".

Remember, Bush claimed it was God that inspired him to attack Iraq. Pity God did not also tell him there were no WMDs in Iraq.

Of course, there are more enlightening ways to make sense of Quran, that is, as a Mystical experience of one human being. That would have to await Muslim Enlightenment.

[anajmi]

I wish the story about the Emperor and his clothes had been true. Unfortunately, it is only a story. Real life is far more complex. Ignorant comparisons like these don't do justice to it.

porus,

And yet, it is impossible to have good understanding of it without scholars, hadith and tafseer, even if you happen to be good in your knowledge of Quranic Arabic. Believers will say we do not need to understand it, "It is from our Lord, and we believe in it".

Actually, it is very easy to understand. Believe in Allah, pray 5 times a day, fast during the month of ramadan, be good to the orphan, fight oppression, follow the prophet Mohammed. What more understanding do you need? You don't need to figure out where the yellow cow came from or if a river represents Imam Hussein.

The people who make it complicated are the people who have disbelief and mischief in their hearts. Believers say, "It is from our lord and we believe in it."

[accountability]

This show of pomp shall go on for ever, unless there is a break in the hypnosis, that has been created so intelligently by the administration. In addition some bravery on the part of common folks, who would just call spade a spade.

Here on this board few of like minded people are active in verbal denunciation, trying to infuse some sense into ordinary bohras.

I agree with tahir, when he says most of shababis would be reformists in heart. But I fail to understand those shababis who witness the rotten corruption and naked savagery in the name of religion tolerate it and become part of it. What is it, either a guilt of conscience, moral degradation and selfish motives.

This bond has become devilish, it is the association of devils, who fear the breakage will take the devil out of them, which they so cheer.

I on the fringe, though may not be the part of devil, but I am just watching it helplessly, and not doing any thing to break that devilish bond. I have too many compromises to make, I have my wife, whom I love a lot, I do not want to break her heart, she is not ready for the fight, I have my mother, who is too old to stand the pressure. The only light I see are my children, who are with me.

But are they ready for fight. The only way to break this bond is to fight vehemently, openly and with courage. The fight is not to be excommunicated, but to remain in the arena and not give the devil the favor of walk out or being thrown out.

Amil, this one person has to be made to bow down, has to be cut to his cloth, make him the servant instead of the ruler. If we could, he wont find many supporter, devil has one inherited weakness, it is coward, it can not stand tall.

I dont know when and how shall I be ready to fight. But I know one thing, it has to come sooner than later.

[porus]

anajmi's Quran:

Originally posted by anajmi:

Believe in Allah, pray 5 times a day, fast during the month of ramadan, be good to the orphan, fight oppression, follow the prophet Mohammed. What more understanding do you need?

Listen alll of you. Shut the rest of the book. You don't need it.

[anajmi]

porus,

Listen to yourself. Don't you think the only reason you are trying to "study" the quran is to find faults in it? Otherwise why would you be so concerned about the things which are unclear and not so much about the things which are extremely clear, some of which I have mentioned above?

As Allah says in the quran, people who go after things which are unclear are those that have darkness in their hearts. I never thought I would see these kinds of people but the glory of Allah is unsurpassed.

[anajmi]

Remember, Bush claimed it was God that inspired him to attack Iraq. Pity God did not also tell him there were no WMDs in Iraq.

porus,

Understanding religious scripture would also involve understanding who is more likely to have been spoken to by God. For someone to think that God has to speak to all or to no one shows how little they understand religious scripture.

[JC]

Kalim,

Very nicely written post. Congrats.

Accty,

Fully agree.

Anajmi,

Why everything has to be so 'scholarly' - you say life is 'complex', and yet you are making things more complex. Let somethings stay simple. Sometimes ignorance is also blessing. Kalim posted a nice post and that explains current bohra state of affairs, explains the story so lets say good to Kalim. And for sure, you have been great in your posts, with lot of knowledge and i even salute Porus and others who argue coz this gives us insight and knowledge.

[kalim]

I would like to elaborate on Porus's comment on mystic experiences. First, such experiences need not point to a divine origin or as a gateway to any great "truth", inaccessible otherwise. Such experiences are simply brain states in which a person feels deeply connected to his surroundings or experiences a sudden flash of insight (an epiphany). Although the mystic may strongly feel that these insights are from god or are absolutely true, there is no reason for others to do so. We still demand proof and verification using means accessible to everyone. That is the key point on which literalistic religion fails: once you throw out the possibility of allegory, no claims it makes is verifiable or falsifiable. For example, on what basis can one prove the physical existence of heaven or hell? If I claim so-and-so planet or star exists I will need to provide, for example, its coordinates so others can verify my claim. Otherwise I will be laughed out of the court.

In a way epiphanies are quite common among scientists who make major discoveries. For example, many great mathematicians and physicists describe that solutions have appeared in a sudden flash of insight. Note that this does not mean that god or some jinn decided to hand this person the solution: all it means is that the subconscious part of the brain was working on the problem and the suddenness of the solution is only illusory. Most often the scientist involved are working on these problems for a very long time, decades even. For example, it took Einstein 10 years between his Special and General theories of Relativity. Now, we can not simply trust these "mystical epiphanies". We need to be able to verify their claims, subject them to vigorous testing and only then accept them as provisionally true (never absolutely true: scientific "truths" are by definition falsifiable). If, as is claimed, religious truths are so much more important, then don't we have a duty to subject these to even greater scrutiny? Note that scrutiny does not mean simply writing volumes on a scripture which is just assumed to be true or just polishing it with our tongues over centuries.

Now compare to religious mystical experiences. People believe because they find those beliefs comforting. Worse, the person who supposedly had those mystical experience is long dead and no one can verify if the documents we have are genuine or deliberately manipulated by people with political ends in mind. Also, the very possibility of mystical experiences is frightening to those steeped in literalistic traditions. For example, observe the revulsion among most Sunnis that scripture could have a taawil. Such people are hasty to proclaim everything other than their narrow views as "deviant". Maybe they had mystical experience in which god gave them the authority to boldly proclaim so-and-so as deviant or orthodox.

Anyway, the key point is that mystical experience has meaning only for the person who has them. To impose these on others needs much proof and verification. Sadly, this is missing. In the end it may be better to trust our own intelligence to come up with a way of living a good life. No need to sell our freedoms and intellects to supposed mystics. We can certainly learn from them, but we can not simply assume that they are correct. Better to be human than a robot.

[humane]

And the experimentation of this so called person with mystical experiences starts and he tries to alter the spiritual beliefs of the people with his own belief which may not be in anyway superior to the early beliefs of the native people.

And the worst part is not only he tries to modify those spiritual beliefs of the people, he tries to change their mental and physical aspects of the life, for spitiual change cannot be felt or seen as people outwardly show that they follow him, he desperately wants to change the mental and physical aspects which can be seen and felt and this man of mystical experience feels happy and elevated for having dictated his terms on the people.

Today's Dawat only and only feels happy when physical aspect of life is in accordance with their dictats.

[anajmi]

Scientists should stop comparing science and religion. Specially the "smart" ones. There are a few reasons for that.

One, scientists believe in all kinds of crap that they have no proof of. That is why there are a lot of scientific theories that will never become scientific facts.

Two, scientists are so used to being falsified that it has become an acceptable part of science.

Three, religious people are much smarter than scientists. With every scientific theory there is a possibility that it may be falsified, but no matter how much science advances, it will never be able to prove that hanuman could not have swallowed the sun. Religion cannot be falsified, even the false ones!!

Now as far as being able to see heaven or hell, rest assured, everyone will get to see them. One of the two, up close and personal. It is up to you to choose which one. Let me give you an analogy.

Two accomplices in crime are caught and charged for murder and theft. Both are interrogated in separate rooms by the prosecutor. The prosecutor offers a deal to both in exchange for the bodies. One of them makes the deal.

The next day at the trial, the evidence is presented in the form of the bodies. The one that made the deal is let off lightly. The one that didn't make the deal originally wants to make a deal now. But it is too late for him. He has to suffer the full punishment for his crime.

So you see, there is a reason why you haven't been shown heaven or hell. Allah wants you to make a deal. The day you see heaven and hell, your time will be up. No more deals for you.

[anajmi]

One other thing, the only reason why you are living like a human is because heaven and hell have not been shown to you. Once you see them, your life as you know it will be over. No more free will. You will then be living the life of a robot.

[Muslim First]

.
Br. Kalim
AS

For example, observe the revulsion among most Sunnis that scripture could have a taawil. Such people are hasty to proclaim everything other than their narrow views as "deviant". Maybe they had mystical experience in which god gave them the authority to boldly proclaim so-and-so as deviant or orthodox.

I do not think Sunnis denay possibilty of Taawil. They might question Taawil put forward by believers in Taawil. Kalim do you have authentic book on Taawil?

Kalim Do you have Taawil for this one

(2:163)
Wa 'Ilaahukum 'Illahunw-Waahid: Laa 'Ilaaha 'Illa Huwar-Rahmaa-nur-Rahim

Your Deity is Allah alone: there is no deity save the All-Beneficent and All-Merciful Allah.

Wasalaam
.

[kalim]

Actually, if you say even the "false" religions can not be falsified rationally then how can you judge between any two given religions? Maybe all religions are false, including the one you follow. Religions are like fairy tales: there is no content in them that can be proved or disproved. Maybe you think being "rest assured" from you is proof enough.

Also, you again display your ignorance by thinking that scientific theories are not scientific facts. The way scientists use these terms is not the same you hear in, say, the Law and Order TV series. There is no difference between theories and facts as scientists use them. Now, falsification does not mean that it will be falsified, but just that in principle it can be falsified by some observational evidence. All statements which can not be falsified are essentially meaningless for we can not be assured of their validity. Also, maybe you should write a couple of papers and publish them on all the "crap" scientists believe. With all your deep knowledge of science, no doubt picked up from Yusuf Ali and Ibn-Kathir, this would prove very valuable to simple scientists who know no better.

BTW: I do not believe in the existence of free-will. I am surprised you brought this up, but in Islamic terms free-will is essential if god's justice is to seen really as justice rather then just caprice. But free-will is an exciting topic for another day.

If there is a god, it is obvious that he created us humans. Now if you choose to loose your humanity and submit to some fairy tale into becoming a robot, then good for you. Anyway, this is getting very boring. I do not want to continue banging my head on a brick, which, in fact, may be more fun.

Muslim First: There are several authentic books on Tawil. Unfortunately, whether you consider them as authentic is another question. In the recent years many of these have been translated into English and I can supply references, if you want. One great source is the refutation of Ismaili philosophy put forward by the great al-Gazhali ("Incoherence of the Philosophers"). It is available in Barnes and Noble and has detailed description of certain philosophical ideas from Ismaili texts.

[anajmi]

Actually, if you say even the "false" religions can not be falsified rationally then how can you judge between any two given religions?

Read my post again, and this time try to understand it. These false religions cannot be falsified by science. One needs to go beyond science, which you are incapable of doing. I think if you were to bang your head against a brick, not only you, but even I will have more fun.

[anajmi]

Br. Muslim First,

Your simple question is far too complex for these scientists. That is what scientists normally do, ask a simple question and get a bibliography as an answer.

[Average Bohra]

Originally posted by anajmi:
I am amongst the top three software architects in my company. And I don't even work the complete 8 hours a day.

Leaving the lazy software architect bit aside how do you verify that your code actually works... faith or verifiable results ?

Do you tell your employer:

"My code cannot be falsified, even the false ones!!" ? If so, how are you among the top three unless you work for Taliban Software, Inc. ?

[jamanpasand]

Taliban Software, Inc.

WOW ! What they do ?

[jamanpasand]

I suspect robot suicide bombers !!!

[anajmi]

jamanpasand,

You remind of the people sitting outside Haji Ali in Mumbai waiting for leftovers, and I have nothing against those poor folks.

For those who don't know, Haji Ali is durga.

May Allah bless their souls.

[jamanpasand]

You remind of the people sitting outside Haji Ali in Mumbai waiting for leftovers

Thanks for making my job easier. It was the very place I was thinking to finding you. So how is the business.

[jamanpasand]

You remind of the people sitting outside Haji Ali in Mumbai waiting for leftovers

Thanks for making my job easier. It was the very place I was thinking to find you. So how is the business ?

[jamanpasand]

AB

Which thread you got this from.

Originally posted by anajmi:
I am amongst the top three software architects in my company. And I don't even work the complete 8 hours a day.

[anajmi]

For those who are interested, there is a very good book called "God Arises. Evidence of God in nature and in science" by Maulan Wahiduddin Khan. It is a paper on scientists and their crap. And I am not talking about science, just scientists. And yeah, you won't find it in Barnes and Noble.

jamanpasand,

You should stick to leftovers. Originality doesn't suit you.

[jamanpasand]

Anajmi

Things are getting much clearer now. So you must be running from Bhindi Bazar Masjid to Haji Ali, and that is how you got converted to your Wahabi Faith.

[porus]

Originally posted by Muslim First:

(2:163)
Wa 'Ilaahukum 'Illahunw-Waahid: Laa 'Ilaaha 'Illa Huwar-Rahmaa-nur-Rahim

Your Deity is Allah alone: there is no deity save the All-Beneficent and All-Merciful Allah.

وَإِلَـهُكُمْ إِلَهٌ وَاحِدٌ لاَّ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ الرَّحْمَنُ الرَّحِيمُ

Incorrect translation. Where is the word 'Allah' in the ayat? If you want to translate 'Ilah' into deity, then the translation is:

Your deity is singular (one, not many) deity.
There is no deity except him.
Rahman and Rahim.

The taawil you need to work out is if there is only one deity how is it possible to recognize his singularity?

Is it like saying that Muslim First has only one father? How can you say that unless there are also other fathers and you can dsistinguish Muslim First's father from other fathers?

Could you solve the problem by saying that there is only one father?

[porus]

If you translate the first part of the ayat incorrectly as "Your deity is Allah alone", why is that different from saying that Mr X alone is the father of ibn-Mr x.

Human mind is not equipped to deal with singularity except as an abstract construct. Singularity must be distinguished from Plurality. They are an aspect of a single polarity.

If you say that my god is Allah alone, aren't you saying that there are other gods beside Allah but I choose to believe in Allah alone. I will deny all others because I believe in Allah and he says that there are no other gods except him.

O, I think you need a lesson in taawil.

Taawil is not a fixed inner meaning. Rather, it is a process for discovering the source, the awwal (the first) of all things. The word taawil is derived from the word awwal.

[Muslim First]

.
Br. Purus

I am not Arabic Expert.

I post one of seven or 8 translation s I have access to.

It is from here .

I do not need a lesson in Tawil. I am just happy reading and understanding from different Interpreted transalations.

Could you or br. Kalim please post Tawil of the Ayah.

BTW Here are more Interpreted translation of 2.163
Malik:Your God is one God; there is no one worthy of worship except Him, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
Pickthall:Your God is One God; there is no God save Him, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Yusuf Ali:And your Allah is one Allah; there is no god but He Most Gracious Most Merciful.
SHAKIR: And your Allah is one Allah! there is no god but He; He is the Beneficent, the Merciful.

Wasalaam
.