The Emperor's New Clothes

[Muslim First]

If you say that my god is Allah alone, aren't you saying that there are other gods beside Allah but I choose to believe in Allah alone. I will deny all others because I believe in Allah and he says that there are no other gods except him.

Muslim belief is that there is only one God and His name in Arabic is Allah. He is also addressed as Khuda and Parwar Digar.

Wasalaam
.

[anajmi]

Is it like saying that Muslim First has only one father? How can you say that unless there are also other fathers and you can dsistinguish Muslim First's father from other fathers?

I have only one middle finger on my right hand. Can you tell me how I can distinguish it from other middle fingers?

porus, you are loosing your touch. Every where in the quran, in hundreds and thousands of places Allah is talking about himself as the ilah, the God - Allah. Read the quran. Now when it comes to this ayah - the taawil prevents you from translating the deity as Allah? It's a good thing I have rejected your taawil.

[porus]

MF,

I have argued for a long time that belief is not TRUTH.

Most Muslims believe in one god. A few have known the TRUTH.

You may wish to investigate if taawil can convince you of the truth of your belief. Or continue in your belief.

Any translation which inserts words that are not in the original Quran is doing an injustice to Quran. Translator could insert his opinion about why he wants to insert additional words in footnotes.

I do not trust these translations even if there hundreds of them.

[anajmi]

Here is Surah Ikhlas

112.001
YUSUFALI: Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
PICKTHAL: Say: He is Allah, the One!
SHAKIR: Say: He, Allah, is One.

112.002
YUSUFALI: Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
PICKTHAL: Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
SHAKIR: Allah is He on Whom all depend.

112.003
YUSUFALI: He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
PICKTHAL: He begetteth not nor was begotten.
SHAKIR: He begets not, nor is He begotten.

112.004
YUSUFALI: And there is none like unto Him.
PICKTHAL: And there is none comparable unto Him.
SHAKIR: And none is like Him.

I am actually grateful to the these translators for making things easy for me. If I were to take porus' approach, I would need all the translations that he has, plus all the dictionaries and the other books that he has learn Arabic, and still wouldn't be able to understand the quran.

[anajmi]

Let me try to explain. If Arabic had been my first langauge and if I were to read this ayah, I wouldn't be thinking of any "deity" other than Allah. If I had been a disbeliever, trying to find faults in the quran, I could've taken some liberties.

Hence when a person faithful to the quran, tries to translate it, he tries to make sure that the reader is not mislead by the translation.

Besides, Yusuf Ali never proclaimed to have written the English Quran. What he has written is the English Translation of the quran. And his translation has been verified by the top Arabic scholars (believers, mind you) Shia and Sunni.

[Muslim First]

.
Br.Purush
AS

As I understand all translations inharit flavor from translator.

Actually they are Interpretation of the meaning of Qur'an. The author tries his best to be as close to original as possible.

BTW I would still would like to read Taawil of 2:163 from you and Br. Kalim can post Taawil from various scholaraly books on Taawilin his possession.

Wasalaam

[anajmi]

I have argued for a long time that belief is not TRUTH.

Belief is actually TRUTH. Even if you believe in that which is false. For eg, a Hindu believes that Hanuman can swallow the sun. For him, his belief is the truth. I believe Allah created everything, that is my belief and for me that is the truth. You believe the universe created itself out of nothing, for you your belief is the truth.

For me, two of the above three beliefs are false and same is the case with the other two too.

[anajmi]

Or I can say that I believe that Hanuman swallowed the sun and my belief is false. That way we can come to your conclusion that belief is not TRUTH. Provided ofcourse, you believe that what you believe in is false.

[anajmi]

Believe me, I have no idea what I am talking about.

[Muslim First]

.
Taawil

Br. Kalim

For example, observe the revulsion among most Sunnis that scripture could have a taawil . Such people are hasty to proclaim everything other than their narrow views as "deviant". Maybe they had mystical experience in which god gave them the authority to boldly proclaim so-and-so as deviant or orthodox.

Then he wrote:

There are several authentic books on Tawil. Unfortunately, whether you consider them as authentic is another question. In the recent years many of these have been translated into English and I can supply references

Well I asked him & Br. Porus to post Taawil of 2:163.

I guess they could not find it in their Scholarly books.

There are many Scholars who claim to know 'Taawil' (That includes Demigod of Bohras and his Aamils). Anything they say, Is it worth paper it is written on or it is just 'Incoharant Babble'?

I hope this will be end of 'Taawil'.

Wasalaam
.

[porus]

Originally posted by Muslim First:

I hope this will be end of 'Taawil'.

Thank you. That is the end of taawil for you. Do not again display Firauni arrogance or your paedomorphosis on this topic.

Incidentally, are you really a Muslim or just a Wahhabi/Salafi parrot?

If you are a Muslim. what do you think is Allah's greatest gift to you? You can search your favorite translator of the Quran for your answer. And then, plese do not tell me that Quran says so and so.

Ilah is Allah indeed!

Why is you kalima not 'No ilah but ilah' or 'No Allah but Allah'? And you guys think Allah is a deity. What a twaddle? Now there is taawil for you.

[anajmi]

If someone can translate the above post for me I would be really grateful. And please don't tell me that porus said so. And if you know the answers to porus' question please post them too. I can't ask porus cause he has a habit of asking more questions instead of answering the ones already asked. I guess that is his taawil.

[anajmi]

Here is a senseless conversation with porus in short - and anajmi is the one being senseless

porus - What does "la ilaha illallah" mean.

anajmi - It means "la ilaha illallah".

porus - Yes, but what does it mean?

anajmi - It means "la ilaha illallah".

porus - Does it mean "There is no God but God"?

anajmi - no you cannot say it means that because it means "la ilaha illallah".

porus - Does it mean "There is no God but Allah"?

anajmi - That is not what the quran says, it says "la ilaha illallah".

porus - Yes I know that, but what does that mean?

anajmi - It means "la ilaha illallah".

porus - I know that you moron, what does it mean? Does it not mean "There is no God but Allah"?

anajmi - What a twaddle? It means "la ilaha illallah".

[anajmi]

Here is another example. (I have too much time)

porus - What does this mean - الْحَمْدُ للّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

anajmi - It means - الْحَمْدُ للّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

porus - Yes but what is the translation?

anajmi - It cannot be translated. It means الْحَمْدُ للّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

porus - Yusuf Ali says it means "Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;"

anajmi - That is not the quran. That is Yusuf Ali. The quran says - الْحَمْدُ للّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

porus - Yes but doesn't one try to convey the meaning of the other?

anajmi - What a twaddle. It means الْحَمْدُ للّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

[anajmi]

And another

anajmi - Hey porus how's it going?

porus - استيقظ صباح أمس مواطنو بلدية تلا عثمان الواقعة شرق ولاية

anajmi - Sorry what?

porus - انتشار وباء مجهول أدى

anajmi - I though you knew English, what happened?

porus - تيزي وزو على بعد 15 كيلومتر على خبر

anajmi - I don't have a clue what you are saying?

porus - إفتتح أمس رئيس الحكومة عبد العزيز بلخادم، المؤتمر العربي ???!!&^$%&

anajmi - What?

porus - للإعاقة الذي تجري أشغاله على مدار اليومين، بحضور العديد من

anajmi - I'm sorry I must've dialed the wrong number.

porus - You moron, you need to learn Arabic to know what I am saying because if I say it in English then it will not be the same as what I was saying in Arabic.

anajmi - zweiwoechige UN-Konferenz zum Thema klimafreundliche

porus - What?

[jamanpasand]

In my neighborhood there was a lunatic, a pagal or gayla in gujrati. In the late hours of the silent night he would come to the neighborhood. After occupying a higher place, he will start telling stories of Adam, Noah, and Khizar etc. This will go for quite long. Then all of sudden, he will loose his mental balance and would just start swearing.
Can you see a parallel here?

[anajmi]

"طسوتلما لىانيوزقرحبنم قئارح"بحّوليدسلأا
ينتموكحنماًددجمرّذحييرب
ةرشابماهيقحتسملىاتاضيوعتل&#157 5;:ةروينسلا

الشوارع ... وزير الداخلية متمسك باستقالته وإتهام لعباس بعدم تنفيذ وعوده (فتحي صبّاح)
مصادر شيعية في إيران تدعم «الحوثيين» ... اليمن: وزير الخارجية يؤكد استدعاء السفيرين من طرابلس وطهران للتشاور (فيصل مكرم)
كراتشي: عشرات القتلى في اشتباكات مسلحة (جمال إسماعيل)
تركيا: تزايد تحذيرات المعارضة من عواقب انتخاب الرئيس شعبياً
الجزائر: إعتقال ثلاثة ليبيين في اختراق لـ«القاعدة» (محمد مقدم)
الامارات تستقبل نجاد اليوم وتطالب تشيني بالتعامل سلمياً مع «الملف النووي» (شفيق الأسدي)

[jamanpasand]

Porus, you are wasting your time with search and paste scholars.

[anajmi]

عربية,

اتفاق على وقف لاطلاق النار بين فتح وحماس
أفادت الأنباء أن حركتي فتح وحماس اتفقتا على وقف لاطلاق النار في محاولة لانهاء الجولة الجديدة من القتال بين الطرفين.

امريكا تريد تغيير اتفاق حول التغير الحراري
تحاول الولايات المتحدة الحيلولة دون المصادقة على مشروع [B/]اتفاق الدول الثماني المصنعة حول التغير المناخي حتى تدخل تعديلات عليها، حسب وثائق اطلعت عليها بي بي سي.

مبارك يعارض بناء جسر يربط مصر والسعودية
أعرب الرئيس المصري حسني مبارك عن معارضته بناء جسر يربط بين مصر والسعودية.

[anajmi]

عربية,

اتفاق على وقف لاطلاق النار بين فتح وحماس
أفادت الأنباء أن حركتي فتح وحماس اتفقتا على وقف لاطلاق النار في محاولة لانهاء الجولة الجديدة من القتال بين الطرفين.

امريكا تريد تغيير اتفاق حول التغير الحراري
تحاول الولايات المتحدة الحيلولة دون المصادقة على مشروع اتفاق الدول الثماني المصنعة حول التغير المناخي حتى تدخل تعديلات عليها، حسب وثائق اطلعت عليها بي بي سي.

مبارك يعارض بناء جسر يربط مصر والسعودية
أعرب الرئيس المصري حسني مبارك عن معارضته بناء جسر يربط بين مصر والسعودية.

[anajmi]

نجاد يقود مظاهرات ضد امريكا في دبي
قاد الرئيس الايراني محمود احمدي نجاد مظاهرات حاشدة مناهظة للولايات المتحدة في دبي بعد يوم واحد من زيارة نائب الرئيس الامريكي ديك تشيني لها.

[feelgud]

zaban e yar mun turki wa mun turki na me daanum

[humane]

Porus,

Ilah means god, it could be any god as we have in Hinduism and no surprise it was in practice in the old Arabia but Allah which is Al + Ilah means THE GOD, the only one as in arabic 'AL' is as equal as 'the' in English, this is an article in Arabic grammar,e.g. Alsadiq means the truthful; Alnoor means the light; Aljamal means the camel etc.

Hence LA ILAH ILLA ALLAH means

No god but the God

[anajmi]

humane,

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. La Ilah Illallah means La Ilah Illallah and nothing else. What you should understand by it is exactly what the prophet understood by it and what did the prophet understand by it?

La Ilah Illallah in arabic and not anything in english because the prophet didn't speak English. If you try to say La Ilah Illallah in English the meaning of it is immediately lost. Say La Ilah Illallah only in Arabic do not translate. You can never say it out loud in any language other than Arabic and just as it is in the quran, otherwise the meaning is lost. Because when you say La Ilah Illallah means No God but the God that is not what the quran says. That is what you are saying. The quran says La Ilah Illallah

[humane]

Najmi,

I agree with you to the extent that once the translation takes place, it loses the true fragrance of the message but then we have no option but to translate the message so that it could reach the wider people.

My response was to Porus who asked why no 'No Ilah but Ilah'. Surely it cannot be 'LAIALAH ILLAL ILAH' The moment you say that Tawhid is lost. Because then it means 'there is no god but a god' Islam says ' LAILAH ILLA ALLAH' which means there is no ILAH( a god) but the Allah (the God).

In brief, Ilah= a god (small 'g')
while AL+ILAH = ALLAH = the God( capital 'g')

[Muslim First]

.
Br. Porush

If you cannot answer then pull out your Wahabi Card.

Could you tell me what Fatemi Culture or heritage is as far as modern day Bohras are conecerned?

Wasalaam

PS

I am still waiting for Taawil of 2.163
.

[porus]

MF,

You have been on this board for many years and you should know that taawil is not the hidden meaning of the Quran. It is the process an adept has available to draw inference and interpretation, which is personal to him. If he wishes, he will make his insights available to others.

You already know my view. Quran is not accessible anymore. What we call Quran is simply translations or interpretations. This is true even for those who know Quranic Arabic well.

We already know your view that ‘taawil is the last refuge of the scounndrels’. You will not learn anything of it. You have imbibed Wahhabism. That is my view.

With regard to Fatemi culture, it simply means that Bohras adhere to the basics of Islam as interpreted by the Imams of Banu Fatema. Culture has since evolved and now it is the Bohra culture.

Not only is Quran inaccessible, so is God. So any idea you have about him is a figment of your imagination as it has been moulded and influenced by those to whom you have abdicated your responsibility for thinking.

Taawil starts when one become dissatisfied with pat answers to deep questions. An adept first understands what ‘God’s’ greatest gift is to mankind, feels gratitude and then makes use of the gift. Do you know what that gift is?

[anajmi]

You already know my view. Quran is not accessible anymore. What we call Quran is simply translations or interpretations. This is true even for those who know Quranic Arabic well.

It's a good thing that you now make it clear before posting these ludicrous assumptions that these are simply your views and not the truth.

Quran is inaccessible only to the disbelievers. The quran is alive and well in the hearts of those that believe in it.

Not only is Quran inaccessible, so is God. So any idea you have about him is a figment of your imagination as it has been moulded and influenced by those to whom you have abdicated your responsibility for thinking.

Again that is simply your view. Allah says in the quran

50:16
وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الْإِنسَانَ وَنَعْلَمُ مَا تُوَسْوِسُ بِهِ نَفْسُهُ وَنَحْنُ أَقْرَبُ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ حَبْلِ الْوَرِيدِ

And

64:4
يَعْلَمُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَيَعْلَمُ مَا تُسِرُّونَ وَمَا تُعْلِنُونَ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِذَاتِ الصُّدُورِ

So it is pretty clear that Allah is accessible to those that believe in him. He is not accessible to those that don't believe in him which is easy to understand. Allah says in the quran

2:6
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ سَوَاءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ أَأَنذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنذِرْهُمْ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ

2:7
خَتَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَى قُلُوبِهمْ وَعَلَى سَمْعِهِمْ وَعَلَى أَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عظِيمٌ

[anajmi]

Here are some of Allah gifts to mankind - Quran, Salaah, Zakat, Hajj, Ramadan.

Allah has blessed the believers with these gifts to make sure that he always remains accessible to those that believe in him through these. And he has given mankind the gift of life so that mankind can worship him.

The prophet says in a hadith that when you pray your salaah, pray it in such a way as if you can see Allah. And if you cannot, remember that Allah sees you.

As explained above, Allah is inaccessible to the disbelievers.

[Average Bohra]

Originally posted by anajmi:
The quran is alive and well in the hearts of those that believe in it;

You can't read it, so you are believing in the translator of which there are many.

PS: Your recent shtick of posting Arabic that you & most on this board can't understand is annoying at best.