The truth about the udaipuri progressives

[Critical_Thinker]

People reading this forum may unfortunately gain a very negative impression of the udaipur Jamaat.
Which would naturally turn them away from participating here, or even turn them against the entire progressive community.

Sadly the forum is very small and primarily consists of people who are not from udaipur.
Indeed the majority of posters are not progressive or traditional bohras, so their opinions are purely their own and do not in any way represent the reformist movement.
Therefore I would like to briefly clarify a few things to make the forum more welcoming to bohras who are thinking about joining the progressive jamaat.

1. The progressive community is not tiny
In udaipur there are several THOUSAND progressives with many more THOUSANDS worldwide.
Please do not take the small size of this forum as an indication of the size of our community.

2. The progressives are devoutly shia
In udaipur we are proud of our shia roots and culture and wholeheartedly do matam for imam hussain.
We have absolutely no sunni inclinations and definitely no association with the wahhabis.
Please disregard the vile and inflammatory anti-shia commentary here.

3. The progressives do believe in a dai
Udaipuris firmly believe in a dai, however we have much higher expectations of the person who holds this lofty position.
Please do not take criticisms of the past and present dais to mean we are against fundamental bohra theology.

4. The progressives are not against the traditional bohra community
Udaipuris consider traditional bohras to be at best, our allies in the struggle for reform, and at worst, our brothers and sisters who are victims of the kothar.
We have given traditional bohras a viable alternative jamaat for them to join if they wish to be free of the kothar, and warmly welcome newcomers.
Progressive bohras are friends to the traditional bohras, not enemies. We are here to help you, not harm you.
Please disregard the constant hostility against bohras here.

5. The progressives are intelligent and civilised
Udaipuris are polite and well mannered and honest.
We know how to discuss matters rationally without exaggerating.
We certainly do not lie or speak in anger or use foul language, as that is not how a decent muslim behaves.
Please disregard the continuous flow of hateful venom on the forum from certain prolific posters.

Overall, please do not judge the udaipur jamaat based on the comments on this forum.
The admin here allows an excessive level of freedom, which is taken advantage of by a handful of non-progressive members.
This demeans the brave sacrifice of the udaipuris and tarnishes our good name and everything we have achieved.
If you have any doubts, feel free to visit your local progressive centre and talk to real progressives face to face.

Hopefully this thread will clear up any misunderstandings and encourage true progressives to take part and help the forum grow.

[fayyaaz]

I have formed an opinion about participants on this forum and have discussed in detail the rationale behind categorizing them into non-Bohras, Ex-Bohras, Anti-Bohras and Bohras. I realized that I had to create a fifth category which included Udaipuri Reformists and other Reformists around the world. Please refer to the thread "This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum" particularly towards the end page 6 and page 7.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10332&start=150

Thank you for clarification Critical_Thinker.

[Al Zulfiqar]

I have formed an opinion about participants on this forum and have discussed in detail the rationale behind categorizing them into non-Bohras, Ex-Bohras, Anti-Bohras and Bohras. I realized that I had to create a fifth category which included Udaipuri Reformists and other Reformists around the world. Please refer to the thread "This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum" particularly towards the end page 6 and page 7.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10332&start=150

Thank you for clarification Critical_Thinker.

you live in a fantasy world of make believe where its your own voice and opinions that matter only to you and no one else. you expect us to fall over in admiration at your classifications and categorisations as if it was the last word in scholarly erudition!

fayyaz, since you are on this 'classification' hallucinatory trip, add one more. that of:

atheists who fantasise about lecturing others on religious worship, their democratic rights, their freedom of expression, etc etc ad nauseum, whilst expressing contempt at the idiocy of their beliefs. said atheists never expressing their personal opinion, only waxing eloquent on their rights under US law. now if there was ever something more guaranteed to confuse any hapless abde floundering in his faith and beliefs shaken up by the recent mess, then surely its these atheists' nonsensical and useless comments.

surely, these atheists have an extremely important role to play on this forum. turn and twist the knife deeper inside the long-suffering abde's wounds, content in the knowledge that they died knowing they had the right to practise a bullshit deen and follow an idiotic leader. kya khub theory hai...! wah!

[Critical_Thinker]

I have formed an opinion about participants on this forum and have discussed in detail the rationale behind categorizing them into non-Bohras, Ex-Bohras, Anti-Bohras and Bohras. I realized that I had to create a fifth category which included Udaipuri Reformists and other Reformists around the world. Please refer to the thread "This is a non-Bohra or anti-Bohra forum" particularly towards the end page 6 and page 7.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10332&start=150

Thank you for clarification Critical_Thinker.

Appreciate you bringing that thread to my attention fayaaz bhai, it looks very interesting.
I shall have to read through it tomorrow though as it also looks very long!
Glad to see Im not the only one who tells it like it is.

[Critical_Thinker]

you live in a fantasy world of make believe where its your own voice and opinions that matter only to you and no one else. you expect us to fall over in admiration

This line describes you perfectly al zulfiqar. Your habit of projecting your own insecurities and vanities on to other people is still alive and well I see.

[Al Zulfiqar]

ct,

lets sum up exactly what you convey.

1. this forum is useless
2. this forum is insignificant
3. everyone on this forum is an idiot
4. no one here understands the udaipuri reformists, except you
5. on the other hand, according to you, even the udaipuri reformists are idiots, they are stuck in a rut and not progressing
6. there are only 20 people coming to this forum and contributing
7. all these 20 people are insecure, vain and have nothing better to do
8. on the other hand, you too have a lot of free time on your hands to come here and basically heap non-constructive criticism on this forum and everyone else
9. the only reason you come here is to make idle chitchat and create enemies, just for the heck of it
10. you like flinging provocative statements around aimlessly and insulting people, so that you can watch the fun after lighting fires
11. your bitterness with reformists and the reform-minded has made you a dangerous sociopath with a death wish to be restrained in a strait jacket and administered slow poison or better still be given a short cut to the electric chair.

after considering all the above, readers know what conclusions they should derive.

[seeker110]

I come here to learn about the short-cuts to Jannat.

[humanbeing]

Critical Thinker

Very nice article and informative.

Fayyaz


I disagree with your judgements on bohras and categorization as per your prejudiced thinking. You seem to have a soft corner for every religious belief except Islam. Please don’t drag your hatred on wahabees in this discussion., they are not the only keepers of islam on this earth. Those bohras who are being in the orthodox fold, carrying ejamat card expressing allegiance to SMS in open and despise in conscience do so for practical, emotional, commercial reasons. It fits your example of “don’t mess with corcodile while you are in the pond” , “pani mein rehke magarmach se bair nahi karna chahiye”


Some of your arguments are logical and worth discussing over. You make a good debator when you debate against religion altogether as an athiest, but your defense of various religious belief are biased and incomplete. Wahabism is also a kind of belief, which has more to it in addition to the violence practiced by its preachers or followers. Similarly, Fatimid belief is not devoid of violence, it too preaches violence in its doctrines. Not every wahaabi or fatimid out there is a violent maniac.

[Dumbledore]

@ Critical Thinker,

Very well written.

[qutub_mamajiwala]

@critical thinker
really appreciated a lot
ur as ur name suggests very critical in ur thinking and also putting it forward in a nice way.
keep going and ignore the criticism level against u
@fayyaz
ur post are really thought provoking

[Universaldad]

People reading this forum may unfortunately gain a very negative impression of the udaipur Jamaat.
Which would naturally turn them away from participating here, or even turn them against the entire progressive community.

Sadly the forum is very small and primarily consists of people who are not from udaipur.
Indeed the majority of posters are not progressive or traditional bohras, so their opinions are purely their own and do not in any way represent the reformist movement.
Therefore I would like to briefly clarify a few things to make the forum more welcoming to bohras who are thinking about joining the progressive jamaat.

1. The progressive community is not tiny
In udaipur there are several THOUSAND progressives with many more THOUSANDS worldwide.
Please do not take the small size of this forum as an indication of the size of our community.

2. The progressives are devoutly shia
In udaipur we are proud of our shia roots and culture and wholeheartedly do matam for imam hussain.
We have absolutely no sunni inclinations and definitely no association with the wahhabis.
Please disregard the vile and inflammatory anti-shia commentary here.

3. The progressives do believe in a dai
Udaipuris firmly believe in a dai, however we have much higher expectations of the person who holds this lofty position.
Please do not take criticisms of the past and present dais to mean we are against fundamental bohra theology.

4. The progressives are not against the traditional bohra community
Udaipuris consider traditional bohras to be at best, our allies in the struggle for reform, and at worst, our brothers and sisters who are victims of the kothar.
We have given traditional bohras a viable alternative jamaat for them to join if they wish to be free of the kothar, and warmly welcome newcomers.
Progressive bohras are friends to the traditional bohras, not enemies. We are here to help you, not harm you.
Please disregard the constant hostility against bohras here.

5. The progressives are intelligent and civilised
Udaipuris are polite and well mannered and honest.
We know how to discuss matters rationally without exaggerating.
We certainly do not lie or speak in anger or use foul language, as that is not how a decent muslim behaves.
Please disregard the continuous flow of hateful venom on the forum from certain prolific posters.

Overall, please do not judge the udaipur jamaat based on the comments on this forum.
The admin here allows an excessive level of freedom, which is taken advantage of by a handful of non-progressive members.
This demeans the brave sacrifice of the udaipuris and tarnishes our good name and everything we have achieved.
If you have any doubts, feel free to visit your local progressive centre and talk to real progressives face to face.

Hopefully this thread will clear up any misunderstandings and encourage true progressives to take part and help the forum grow.

So now the reformists, Khozemites, Udaipuri reformists, wahabis are at each others throat trying to define where their stand and where the belong. Utterly a confused lot.

Critical Thinker, Since you speak for the 1000's of reformists and also state in point 3 '3. The progressives do believe in a dai - Udaipuris firmly believe in a dai, however we have much higher expectations of the person who holds this lofty position.
Please do not take criticisms of the past and present dais to mean we are against fundamental bohra theology.'
Please reveal who is your Dai? Are you for SMS or KQ? who is your Dai? This is the most fundamental question that you have been unable to answer for the last 11 months.

Awaiting your response.

[Ummul Bani]

Sister Critical_thinker has summed up almost everything , however, I wish to elaborate and add a bit more to it.
I have been to Udaipur a few times and write here from my personal experience and observation.

I did get a chance to interact with a few reformists on my last visit there and I must say that they are quite welcoming and approachable people. This is quite contrary to the negative hype that is created about them. They are overall on good terms with the orthodox there, have good business relations with them etc. Marriages across the divide take place too. There might have been a few clashes in the past but the situation is much better now and the bitterness seems to have reduced if not completely eliminated ( hope that continues).

Yes it is true that they are staunch, devoted Shias. For instance, you will find them quite particular about attending the majlis and sermons that go on for 40 days after Ashara while dressed up quite simply (especially in black), as a mark of respect.

It is also a myth that the progressives are 'anti bohras'. The fact is they are strictly and only anti kothar for their corrupt practices and are extremely firm on this stand. The fact that they visit the local Syedi Lukmanji dargah and have their own Ziyarat tours should clarify the misunderstanding which labels them as 'anti bohra'. They are as committed to their roots and beliefs as the orthodox lot is.

It is also wrongly assumed that the Udaipur reformists are unaware of this website. I mean , how can they not be aware of something that they themselves have started! They just do not visit this site as most of them are not very well versed with the English language ( as Br Humsafar rightly pointed out some time back). This is the reason for their non participation here and not their lack of interest in the very reform movement that they initiated.

The progressives are quite independent. They have their own community centres, Mosques, jamatkhanas, schools, medical and relief centres, maternity clinics etc.The best part is that the services are not restricted to the progressives alone and are open to all. I have myself seen the orthodox bohras visiting the Bohra Youth Medical centre there. Overall, they are on their own in all aspects.

This is the real portrayal of the current Udaipur reformists and I hope no wrong conclusions are drawn about them based upon this forum alone.

[fayyaaz]

Ummul Bani,

I would like to make it clear that in my categorization, anti-Bohras are card-carrying members of a Bohra Jamaat ostensibly affiliated to SMS among the participants of this forum only. I have specifically excluded Udaipuri Reformists and other Reformists who do not actively participate here. I refer to non-participants who are the vast majority of Bohras affiliated to Jamaats headed by SMS simply as Bohras.

[fayyaaz]

Fayyaz


I disagree with your judgements on bohras and categorization as per your prejudiced thinking. You seem to have a soft corner for every religious belief except Islam. Please don’t drag your hatred on wahabees in this discussion., they are not the only keepers of islam on this earth. Those bohras who are being in the orthodox fold, carrying ejamat card expressing allegiance to SMS in open and despise in conscience do so for practical, emotional, commercial reasons. It fits your example of “don’t mess with corcodile while you are in the pond” , “pani mein rehke magarmach se bair nahi karna chahiye”


Some of your arguments are logical and worth discussing over. You make a good debator when you debate against religion altogether as an athiest, but your defense of various religious belief are biased and incomplete. Wahabism is also a kind of belief, which has more to it in addition to the violence practiced by its preachers or followers. Similarly, Fatimid belief is not devoid of violence, it too preaches violence in its doctrines. Not every wahaabi or fatimid out there is a violent maniac.

I have made it clear many times that I do not defend religious beliefs of any kind. I comment upon them and seek to offer explanations and criticisms for the beliefs. I stress that all should be free to practice their religions in peace, no matter how others disagree with their beliefs. I would leave Wahhabis alone too if they left others alone but it is their article of faith that they must use violence to convert others to their point of view that I object. I am very much aware that no religion or sect can escape a charge of using unprovoked violence.

You and others like SBM simply refuse to read what I have written or read your own prejudices into them. You are both getting very annoying to deal with.

[Humsafar]

It is really heartening to see people speaking up for Udaipur reformists. All these years I've been the lone voice - or almost the lone voice - speaking in and on behalf of them, their struggles and their achievements. It's good to hear other voices, it's music to my ears .

It is unfortunate that people unfamiliar with reformists - in Udaipur and elsewhere - form an opinion about them based on this Forum. They can be forgiven for their misunderstanding. But for most part this misunderstanding is deliberately encouraged and spread by abdes who want to brand reformists Whabbis and especially this forum as a Wahabbi enterpirse. It is really sad that we reformists have to re-assert our Shia identity and beliefs, and have to prove to others that we are true to our faith. But I guess we need to do that every now and then given the overwhelming propaganda of the clergy against us.

Yes this forum provides "excessive freedom" but let's not forget that it is this kind of freedom - freedom of conscience - that is at the bottom of reformist struggle. This forum honours that principle and provides a platform where where people can come and speak their mind without fear or favour. In the marketplace of ideas let everyone have their say - so long as they are not being foisted down on others. Of course, this kind of freedom is messy, and when it gets into immature hands it is misused and abused. And we do see a lot of that here - the abuse, the name-calling, the petty arguments, the ego-tripping etc. But alongside there are also some serious, meaningful and erudite discussions and exposes that have borne fruit. So, my point is, we have to take the good with the bad. On the other hand this Forum could be a lot more strict and disciplined but then it will lose its raison d'etre, the very freedom that reformists espouse.

[zinger]

It is really heartening to see people speaking up for Udaipur reformists. All these years I've been the lone voice - or almost the lone voice - speaking in and on behalf of them, their struggles and their achievements. It's good to hear other voices, it's music to my ears .

It is unfortunate that people unfamiliar with reformists - in Udaipur and elsewhere - form an opinion about them based on this Forum. They can be forgiven for their misunderstanding. But for most part this misunderstanding is deliberately encouraged and spread by abdes who want to brand reformists Whabbis and especially this forum as a Wahabbi enterpirse. It is really sad that we reformists have to re-assert our Shia identity and beliefs, and have to prove to others that we are true to our faith. But I guess we need to do that every now and then given the overwhelming propaganda of the clergy against us. sorry, but you have to try harder. the discussions that happen here under the guise of freedom of speech tell me otherwise. correct me if im wrong, but havent you also personally, doubted the existence of the imam? i believe you have mentioned this somewhere, that according to you, the imam is a fairy tale to keep us dawoodi bohras in check. if you havent, and i mixed you up with someone else that my most sincere apologies. but if you have spoken those words, and you have spoken those in your personal capacity, then i wonder if you are now posting in your personal capacity or as a representative of the reformist jamat

Yes this forum provides "excessive freedom" but let's not forget that it is this kind of freedom - freedom of conscience - that is at the bottom of reformist struggle. This forum honours that principle and provides a platform where where people can come and speak their mind without fear or favour. In the marketplace of ideas let everyone have their say - so long as they are not being foisted down on others. sorry, but in all the abuses and derogatory remarks about the Dai and the community, the freedom is getting lost somewhere Of course, this kind of freedom is messy, and when it gets into immature hands it is misused and abused. And we do see a lot of that here - the abuse, the name-calling, the petty arguments, the ego-tripping etc. But alongside there are also some serious, meaningful and erudite discussions and exposes that have borne fruit. So, my point is, we have to take the good with the bad. On the other hand this Forum could be a lot more strict and disciplined but then it will lose its raison d'etre, the very freedom that reformists espouse. IMHO, there needs to be some stricter sort of monitoring of posts because all posts here are by default, taken to be representative of the reformist community. just as all acts of individual dawoodi bohras are taken as being representative of the community. different yardsticks cannot be applied selectively

[Humsafar]

correct me if im wrong, but havent you also personally, doubted the existence of the imam?

Yes, I have. But my personal opinion is not at issue here. I speak in and on behalf of the reformist cause, but in my personal capacity and not as their representative.

sorry, but in all the abuses and derogatory remarks about the Dai and the community, the freedom is getting lost somewhere

Both sides are guilty of it.

IMHO, there needs to be some stricter sort of monitoring of posts because all posts here are by default, taken to be representative of the reformist community. just as all acts of individual dawoodi bohras are taken as being representative of the community.

Correct. But that is an unfortunate part of public engagement. You cannot control people's perceptions, they will think and believe what they CHOOSE to think and believe, irrespective of what the facts are. You cannot control the misrepresentation of this Forum anymore that you can control the misrepresentation of Dawoodi Bohra community. It's just the nature of the beast.

[SBM]

zinger wrote: correct me if im wrong, but havent you also personally, doubted the existence of the imam?


Yes, I have. But my personal opinion is not at issue here. I speak in and on behalf of the reformist cause, but in my personal capacity and not as their representative.

Did not even Syedna STS or SMB denied the concept of Hidden Imam in Courts (I think it was posted elsewhere on this forum) May be some one can bring it up to refresh Br Zinger's memory

[Adam]

@Critical_Thinker
Thank you for clarifying the Udaipuri position.
Please be kind enough to clarify the following:

3. The progressives do believe in a dai
Udaipuris firmly believe in a dai, however we have much higher expectations of the person who holds this lofty position.
Please do not take criticisms of the past and present dais to mean we are against fundamental bohra theology.

Who is the Dai?
Admin of this Forum has forgotten to update this site from the 52nd Dai. It's been almost a year now.
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/about_us/our-mission/

[abde53]

Who is the Dai?
Admin of this Forum has forgotten to update this site from the 52nd Dai. It's been almost a year now.

Adam Bhai
I think they are waiting for the Judge to decide who will be the 53rd Dai
I am abde53 (?) follower too

[Admin]

Adam, pls read it again:

We are Ismaili Fatimid Mustalian Tayyebi Dawoodi Bohras, a sect of Shia Islam. We accept the succession of Imams up to Imam Tayyeb and his progeny, and the line of Tayyebi Dais starting from Syedna Zoeb bin Moosa to the rightful successor to the 52nd Dai Sayedna Mohammed Burhanuddin.

[WYP]

Does the rightful successor have a name? There are two claimants, which one do you think is the rightful successor?

[fayyaaz]

Does the rightful successor have a name? There are two claimants, which one do you think is the rightful successor?

The rightful successor is the one that the 52nd Dai has nominated as his successor.

Who that is is under dispute. The dispute is unlikely to be resolved. Thus the 'rightful' successor is whoever you believe him to be, either SMS or SKQ?

Currently, I do not see anything compelling for this site to declare for one or the other claimant. Once the dust settles and both parties have formed separate sects, there will be issues for the followers of either claimant to discuss openly and this site could provide a forum for both sets of followers. The site could then be modified, for example, by having different forums along the line of separate threads currently for SMS and SKQ.

[kimanumanu]

Does that mean you have to add a "fence-sitting Bohra" category?

[fayyaaz]

Does that mean you have to add a "fence-sitting Bohra" category?

An opportunity would exist for fence-sitters to make an informed choice about their selection of the Dai.

[alam]

The forum is going too remain the same no matter whose name or names is/are as "Rightful successor". The debate will go on, business as usual, because so far, it's the #1 go-to Dawoodi Bohra site where any Dawoodi Bohra reads or contributes by writing. Because reform is a process, not an end goal. The fight for justice, the fight against oppression, the right to freedom of expression is universal and timeless. So it doesn't matter who the ADMIN of this website ultimately (if ever) names the rightful successor to the 52nd Dai, the threads and posts will go on - business as usual.

[fayyaaz]

Because reform is a process, not an end goal. The fight for justice, the fight against oppression, the right to freedom of expression is universal and timeless.

Extremely well put. The mission for Reform is never ending while immediate, short or long term goals may keep changing.

[WYP]

You are right, it really does not matter to the progressives who the rightful successor is. Whoever this successor may be when the 'dust settles down', will eventually be subjected to the same amount of ridicule and abuse that was and is still being dished out to the past 2 Dais. The progressives find themselves in a situation where they claim that the Dai is their leader, but they ridicule, ignore and disobey the Dai at every opportunity, unless of course, the Dai's farmaan is to their convenience.

[SBM]

ignore and disobey the Dai at every opportunity, unless of course, the Dai's farmaan is to their convenience.

WYP
Do you obey all the farmans of the Dai?

[WYP]

Why did you leave out ridicule from my quote?