Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

[anajmi]

That is an idiotic argument. It is like saying that since Abu Jahal remained a kafir then by logic (more specifically, YOUR logic) the prophet (saw) has failed to deliver the message of Islam!!!

Your analogy does not apply at all. Think about it. The argument made is court is about the survival of the message and the messenger whereas your example is about the acceptance of the message.

The fact that there is a dispute about nuss, implies that there is no clear nuss. Which in turn implies, according to Fatimid theology, that the prophet (saw) has failed. That is like saying that since Abu Jahl didn’t convert to Islam the prophet (saw) has failed. Sorry, but I don’t see an issue with the analogy. It is perfect.

[Shams]

Anajmi, I love the incoherence of your circular argument and your ability to stretch metaphors to their very limits. I may not be as well averse with historic references to current events as you are but can definitely see through baloney when I come across it. The dispute is not in the validity and existence of a clear nass but in the claiming and usurping of it.

[momeenbhai]

I had respect for khuzaima qutbuddin but when I saw they keep transferring power to their own kids and there is no divinity involve any more I am all good to stick with main stream islam and as a community DB main stream.

it is loud and clear this war is all about money and power.

[dal-chaval-palidu]

I had respect for khuzaima qutbuddin but when I saw they keep transferring power to their own kids and there is no divinity involve any more I am all good to stick with main stream islam and as a community DB main stream.

it is loud and clear this war is all about money and power.

just because money and power are involved does not mean that the fight is necessarily about money and power only.

What was a civil person supposed to do? All of us know that SKQ was #2, and that this in-fighting was in plain view, and SKQ said (after SMB wafat) that nass was done on him. Now even those who believe it cannot support in the open for fear of social boycott. What is SKQ supposed to do? Do goonda-giri like the other side? SKQ took the civil approach of going thru the courts.

The court case, in my humble opinion (and many will disagree) has been very useful and revealing. For example, it is the court case, and the court case only, that has forced SMS and team to say: "Nass once done can be changed". We also learnt that SMB was without any significant fluids or solids for 48 hours before he got admitted to the hospital. Why? What were the shahazada and Dr. Moiz doing? Just a wild hypothesis: Were they holding back food and water and asking/forcing SMB to "do a nass" and SMB was resisting? Just purely speculation on my part.

The point is that the court case brings these things out, which never would have come out otherwise. And we can all think, and Inshallah decide what is right. That is the value of the court case in my opinion, apart from the verdict. And Inshallah, when MS BS and his brothers/sister are examined in the court as "witnesses" to the nass, more thought-provoking things can come out.

Btw, I agree with you that the dai only from father-to-son is a transfer of power. But Islam still makes it incumbent on us to decide who is right and who is not, and to support the right. That is what we should do to earn the good pleasure of Allah, for our own akherat. Not just go with the majority/mainstream DB community. Just my humble 2 cents.

[momeenbhai]

how do you explain 400 years and Imam is not able to find another man which comes from another family then this one?

I believe in Imam uz zaman and I believe Imam will come in end times for sure and my belief is based on sunni+shia hadiths.

[yfm]

My dear pdb bhayos. Please get out of your camouflage and act like man. Izzat (honor) that the Koran teaches and what our forefathers believed does not have the same meaning today since now it is equated with money and power.
If you think that we came from a sperm and an egg in our mother's womb, and yet have the great power of sending man to the moon and mars, then why don't you believe that where we are going to is in the same hands who gave us life.
Don't get caught up in the quest of nass and who is right. These are all impostors. If we do not know where and how we came into being, how can we know where we are going. So forget these phony dais and their lust for our money and their power.

Live your life according to the teachings of the Koran and your creator will take you to your next phase.

Remember if Imam Hussein did not believe in the next life, he would have negotiated wealth and power here on earth.

Let us be progressive dawoody Bpbras, unafraid of nass and waste time with these ok imposter.

Our old dais have been capsized by these imposters who have no fear of Allah.

[yfm]

Be unafraid of these dais especially if you are away from India. We have to go back to our roots. Mainstream progressive dawoody bohras and NOT REGRESSIVE PDB who want to use the old shithouse. We don't pray 5 times but want an old shithouse because it will save us from Colon Cancer.

[yfm]

We are stuck on dais and the dais making money of us. Yet Israelis and the Jews are working hard to seize their interests. In the process they make us realize how impotent we are. Is this the face we want to go and meet our Allah and our Prophet (SAW).

Shame on us.

[Shams]

Bombay High Court Declaratory Suit 13th, 14th & 16th February 2018
Posted on February 18, 2018
The cross-examination of the Plaintiff, Syedna Taher Fakhruddin Saheb (TUS) continued on the 13th, 14th, and 16th of February 2018 in the Hon’ble Bombay High Court.

On 13th February, Senior Counsel Mr. Iqbal Chagla for the Defendant, Shehzada Mufaddal Saifuddin, asked the Plaintiff about a treatise of the 51st Dai which states that Nass should be in the presence of “people” from the Dawat. The Plaintiff responded that the translated word “people” is a general meaning and the Arabic word used in the text is ‘jamaat’. He further said that the Prophet Mohammed SA had himself said that “a single believer is a jamaat.”

In response to a question from Mr. Chagla on whether Nass of succession should be explicit, the Plaintiff responded that conferment of Nass must be by a direct statement or clear indication, as is explained in the Dawoodi Bohra misaaq (oath).

On 14th February, Mr. Chagla asked the Plaintiff whether he accepted that the compilation listing Ismaili treatises on law, doctrine and history, authored by Ismail bin Abdurrasool al-Ujjaini (al-Majdu) was an authoritative compilation. The Plaintiff replied that this compilation should not be regarded as fully authoritative, as the author of this compilation, known in the community as the renegade al-Majdu, revolted against the 40th Dai.

Mr. Chagla sought to ask further questions on al-Majdu’s compilation which the Hon’ble Justice Patel disallowed on the grounds that the Defendant would first have to prove that al-Majdu’s compilation was authoritative in the community.

On 16th February, the Plaintiff produced a video recording of the 52nd Dai Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin Saheb RA, in which the 52nd Dai said that “no conceptions of Majdu should be adopted” and that any works authored by al-Majdu should be treated with extreme caution.

Mr. Chagla produced an audio recording of a sermon of the 51st Dai Syedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb RA in which the Defendant claims that the 51st Dai spoke of a requirement of witnesses to nass. The Plaintiff produced an enhanced (for clarity) version of the same recording and said it is clear that no requirement of witnesses is discussed. In fact, he said, the 51st Dai does not even mention witnesses (“shaahido ne bhi”), rather he mentions writings (“kaaghazo ma bhi”). The Hon’ble Justice Patel noted this crucial difference and stated that it would have to be examined separately.

Mr. Chagla asked the Plaintiff if there were any proofs of the 27th Dai’s rightful succession against the rival claimant Sulayman, other than the fact that he was the Mazoon of the 26th Dai. The Plaintiff replied that the 25th Dai had stated that the Imam appeared in a vision before him in a dream and instructed him to appoint both “the two Daud’s” the 26th and the 27th Dais after him. The Plaintiff also said that when the 26th Dai appointed the 27th Dai as Mansoos, some people objected. The 26th Dai responded to the objectors that in fact it is was his predecessor the 25th Dai who had instructed him (26th Dai) to appoint his successor Syedna Daud bin Qutubshah as the 27th Dai.

The Plaintiff also noted that the 51st Dai in his Risalat states that Sulayman accepted the succession of Syedna Qutubshah (the 27th Dai) by performing Sajda to him, before he rebelled a few years later.

(The Defendant, Shahzada Mufaddal Saifuddin, has prostrated before the Original Plaintiff Syedna Khuzaima Qutbuddin RA, and video recordings of this have been submitted in evidence.)

The Hon’ble Justice Patel has scheduled the further cross-examination of the Plaintiff on 20th and 21st of March 2018 and if required on the 10th, 11th and 13th April 2018.

Can someone please throw light on the writings of Ismail bin Abdurrasool al-Ujjaini and its relevance to the court case?

[UnhappyBohra]

No idea which of Majdu’s writing they brought to court. But it is significant that they should bring any at all! why bring in the writing of a dawat na Dushman to make the Mufaddali dawat case? It does not make any sense at all! Burhanuddin Moula would not approve

[Moiz_Dhaanu]

One simple question to all who have even little bit of knowledge about dawat ,
Has there ever been an instance when True Nabi or imam or Dai has taken the help or reference of a munafiq's ideology or taken the help of a dissident literature to prove his point,?
As far as I know never!!..in fact why would they?

Well since DMBS side did exactly which no other haq na dai has done before..It makes absolutely clear who the fake dai is..
DMBS : Dawedaar Mufaddal Bhai Saheb

[momeenbhai]

I have better questions to ask these dai claimants.

did any dai solely lived on public funds?
did any dai built up houses and acquired foreign passports and visas on public funds?
did any dai wore rado/gucci and flew world wide using public funds?
did any dai drove merc/Rolls-Royce on public funds?
did any dai built hospitals and private clubs only for rich?
did any dai restricted people from meeting him until huge money is paid?
did any dai asked for money to open masjid/zyafat?
did any dai worked tirelessly just to move around to gather more and more money?


Judge should better have a look at these questions rather than looking at age old stories which are not relevant to these people.

[momeenbhai]

Both mufaddal and taher should have no power over public properties and all the money which they have looted from people should be given back.

[momeenbhai]

these both idiots dont deserve dai title until they cut down their show biz and live simple life. both have made islam as their sole business to live upon.

Austerity is alein for these people, even their fathers lived luxurious life for ages without doing any work for the community.

[UnhappyBohra]

I have better questions to ask these dai claimants.

did any dai solely lived on public funds?
did any dai built up houses and acquired foreign passports and visas on public funds?
did any dai wore rado/gucci and flew world wide using public funds?
did any dai drove merc/Rolls-Royce on public funds?
did any dai built hospitals and private clubs only for rich?
did any dai restricted people from meeting him until huge money is paid?
did any dai asked for money to open masjid/zyafat?
did any dai worked tirelessly just to move around to gather more and more money?


Judge should better have a look at these questions rather than looking at age old stories which are not relevant to these people.

Wow! I wish my exams were so easy. I can answer Yes for all questions related to Mufaddal Saifuddin and No for Syedna Fakhruddin. I have the opportunity to experience both worlds so I know what I am talking about. But we all know you have a soft corner in your heart for MS so I expect a a bit of a meltdown in response to my answer. I will not dignify your questions beyond this.

[momeenbhai]

what kind of Islamic awliyah keeps swimming pool in his backyard?

[Vas_anwala]

Wow! I wish my exams were so easy.

Maybe start from kindergarten again,no?

I can answer Yes for all questions related to Mufaddal Saifuddin and No for Syedna Fakhruddin. I have the opportunity to experience both worlds so I know what I am talking about.

And I'm a qualified geophysicist and I know the world is flat because I've been living on this sphere to know how the earth is not flat but it is because I said so. Let me guess, you haven't been to any other public forum before and hang around here with these low life's and zinazadaas to masturbate their hypocrisy to make it larger than it already is!!

But we all know you have a soft corner in your heart for MS so I expect a a bit of a meltdown in response to my answer. I will not dignify your questions beyond this.

Maybe bring proof for your hypocritic argumemts and maybe you may prove yourself to not be worse than a flat earther. Hey, atleast thet bring in proof, no matter how idiotic and pseudo factual it may be.

[UnhappyBohra]

Wow! I wish my exams were so easy.

Maybe start from kindergarten again,no?

I can answer Yes for all questions related to Mufaddal Saifuddin and No for Syedna Fakhruddin. I have the opportunity to experience both worlds so I know what I am talking about.

And I'm a qualified geophysicist and I know the world is flat because I've been living on this sphere to know how the earth is not flat but it is because I said so. Let me guess, you haven't been to any other public forum before and hang around here with these low life's and zinazadaas to masturbate their hypocrisy to make it larger than it already is!!

But we all know you have a soft corner in your heart for MS so I expect a a bit of a meltdown in response to my answer. I will not dignify your questions beyond this.

Maybe bring proof for your hypocritic argumemts and maybe you may prove yourself to not be worse than a flat earther. Hey, atleast thet bring in proof, no matter how idiotic and pseudo factual it may be.

The proof has been presented in videos here several times and observed by me in person - which is sufficient for my own conclusions. I was answering yes or no questions asked survey style by moron which I answered befitting his IQ. I did not know Your Royal Jackassness would be arriving and expecting long form answers. Not that I would have cared to answer if I had! This is not scientific site. People share observations and experiences. YOU are free to believe what YOU want and arrive at conclusions based on your presumably one sided observations and one way information feed.

And no I am not a sociopath like yourself Who lives life on online forums so I am OK to admit that I do not visit other forums. I come here because grievances from the Mufaddali world are aired openly here and not so in the real Mufaddali world. In other parts of my life and in my life in FD, open discussions are the norm even in the real world! I much prefer to have my discussions in the open with my own identity where I can!

[Vas_anwala]

The proof has been presented in videos here several times and observed by me in person - which is sufficient for my own conclusions.

You know what? You're doing a fine job of proving me right when I say that you inbreds have a mini flat earthers party going on here.

I was answering yes or no questions asked survey style by moron which I answered befitting his IQ. I did not know Your Royal Jackassness would be arriving and expecting long form answers.

Oooh, someone is triggered

Not that I would have cared to answer if I had! This is not scientific site. People share observations and experiences. YOU are free to believe what YOU want and arrive at conclusions based on your presumably one sided observations and one way information feed.

So, this is a flat earther social party after all.

And no I am not a sociopath like yourself Who lives life on online forums so I am OK to admit that I do not visit other forums.

Umm....so you do get your worldview fed from hypocrites and zinazadaas. Thanks!!

I come here because grievances from the Mufaddali world are aired openly here and not so in the real Mufaddali world.

Because you lack spine. Gotcha

In other parts of my life and in my life in FD, open discussions are the norm even in the real world but disregard evidence presented because it does nit fit my worldview

Wew lad!!!

I much prefer to have my discussions in the open with my own identity where I can!

As a zinazada?

[UnhappyBohra]

Dude I don't need a picture of the Earth from space, or a curved horizon to determine whether someone is fit to be a Dai or not or to determine if a video that I am being shown is telling me what is happening rather than showing me.

I can determine for myself if someone is a scamming, money-minded, con-artist looking to make a quick buck on the backs of poor people whom he is supposed to guide. I can determine for myself that his bayan is a direct contradiction of a bayan I have been hearing all my life from the previous Dai - multiple "clarifications" and "explanations" not-withstanding. Your name-calling reveals more about you than it does about whoever you intend it for.

[Vas_anwala]

Dude I don't need a picture of the Earth from space, or a curved horizon to determine whether someone is fit to be a Dai or not or to determine if a video that I am being shown is telling me what is happening rather than showing me.

But that's what a flat earther would say. These are the same reasons you get with flat earthers as well.

I can determine for myself if someone is a scamming, money-minded, con-artist looking to make a quick buck on the backs of poor people whom he is supposed to guide.

And yet you're with Khuzaima and ilk. Tch tch tch!!!

I can determine for myself that his bayan is a direct contradiction of a bayan I have been hearing all my life from the previous Dai - multiple "clarifications" and "explanations" not-withstanding.

I've been seeing the Gobra do some unislamic activities which I too haven't been able to reconcile with those of Burhanuddin RA maula's actions.

Your name-calling reveals more about you than it does about whoever you intend it for.

You adress someone in this world with names. How is me calling someone by his real name unlike nature?

[Reporter]

High court appoints psychotherapist to counsel seven minor grandchildren of Sayedna...

[Shams]

This is so sad to read. The children have been brainwashed to the extent of rejecting their mothers affections. Clinical studies have consistently shown that a child's relation with his mother dictates his behavior as an adult towards women. Recent history is replete with serial killers and murderers who were born out of their animosity towards their mothers, would these be the future leaders of the community? Woe be unto the gandus who pressured these children into behaving in such a manner.

[level_headed]

This is so sad to read. The children have been brainwashed to the extent of rejecting their mothers affections. Clinical studies have consistently shown that a child's relation with his mother dictates his behavior as an adult towards women. Recent history is replete with serial killers and murderers who were born out of their animosity towards their mothers, would these be the future leaders of the community? Woe be unto the gandus who pressured these children into behaving in such a manner.

I wrote a shaairi on TB and talked about his daari and him losing his izzat and that post got deleted and here Shams is using the word 'gandu' with impunity. Admin please note

[level_headed]

This is so sad to read. The children have been brainwashed to the extent of rejecting their mothers affections. Clinical studies have consistently shown that a child's relation with his mother dictates his behavior as an adult towards women. Recent history is replete with serial killers and murderers who were born out of their animosity towards their mothers, would these be the future leaders of the community? Woe be unto the gandus who pressured these children into behaving in such a manner.

Coming to your post - what a short memory you have Shams. Where was all this indignation when the little innocent kids were kidnapped by the mother and taken to TB citadel in Bakersfield and no access was provided to the father. The kids have experienced this and there animosity and loathing of their mothers is based on solid reason and experience.
Now the moms are crying crocodile tears - tab yaad nahi aaya jab kidnap kar ke bhaag rahi thi

[momeenbhai]

High court appoints psychotherapist to counsel seven minor grandchildren of Sayedna...

so case isnt over yet then how come children are already with father?

guy who claimes he can cure people isnt able to cure his own kids?

yes dua works but only when you remain humble and give credit of shifa to ALLAH SUBHANU.

[dal-chaval-palidu]

This is so sad to read. The children have been brainwashed to the extent of rejecting their mothers affections. Clinical studies have consistently shown that a child's relation with his mother dictates his behavior as an adult towards women. Recent history is replete with serial killers and murderers who were born out of their animosity towards their mothers, would these be the future leaders of the community? Woe be unto the gandus who pressured these children into behaving in such a manner.

Coming to your post - what a short memory you have Shams. Where was all this indignation when the little innocent kids were kidnapped by the mother and taken to TB citadel in Bakersfield and no access was provided to the father. The kids have experienced this and there animosity and loathing of their mothers is based on solid reason and experience.
Now the moms are crying crocodile tears - tab yaad nahi aaya jab kidnap kar ke bhaag rahi thi

Do 2 wrongs make a right, Sir?

They claim to be Islamic leaders, have they forgotten what the Quran says about mothers, the hadiths of rasulallah (SAW)?
May be a selected few .....

There are many instances that the Prophet Muhammad commanded believers to respect their mothers. Here are a few examples:

• A man came to the Prophet and said, ‘O Messenger of God! Who among the people is the most worthy of my good companionship? The Prophet (PBUH) said: Your mother. The man said, ‘Then who?’ The Prophet said: Then your mother. The man further asked, ‘Then who?’ The Prophet said: Then your mother. The man asked again, ‘Then who?’ The Prophet said: Then your father. (Bukhari, Muslim)

• A man once consulted the Prophet Muhammad about taking part in a military campaign. The Prophet asked the man if his mother was still living. When told that she was alive, the Prophet said: “(Then) stay with her, for Paradise is at her feet.” (Al-Tirmidhi)

• On another occasion, the Prophet said: “God has forbidden for you to be undutiful to your mothers.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari)

• The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him and his family) said: “One who pleases his parents has verily pleased Allah, and one who has angered his parents has verily angered Allah.”

• It is narrated by Asma bint Abu Bakr [we refer to her as Asma binte Umaish (sp?)] that during the treaty of Hudaibiyah, her mother, who was then pagan, came to see her from Makkah. Asma informed the Messenger of Allah of her arrival and also that she needed help. He said: Be good to your mother (Bukhari, Muslim).

In addition, there are many others, and several Quranic ayats.

I especially wanted to mention the last one quoted above. Even if you disagree with your mother on the basis of religion, as is the case above, the command, from none other than the prophet of Islam is to be good to your mother.

The newspaper article mentions the children (grandchildren of SMS) did not even talk to their mothers and made them cry. And they left after 5 minutes when there was a 4 hour visitation with their mothers.

Allah ke ghar me dare hai, anther nahi.

[Vas_anwala]

[DELETED]

[Moiz_Dhaanu]

Coming to your post - what a short memory you have Shams. Where was all this indignation when the little innocent kids were kidnapped by the mother and taken to TB citadel in Bakersfield and no access was provided to the father.

Damn!!... I have yet to come across any Islamic literature where "Kidnap" and "mother" have been written in same sentence....that says quite a lot about the kind of malign propaganda people have been fed by DMBS PR team.

The kids have experienced this and there animosity and loathing of their mothers is based on solid reason and experience.
Now the moms are crying crocodile tears - tab yaad nahi aaya jab kidnap kar ke bhaag rahi thi

I wonder how come you were privy to what exactly transpired there and with the kids..you surely seem to have unrestricted access to both sides....i am mot sure how many on this forum are even taking you seriously(also since you have claimed to be a Dai)....in your words "good going till now"

[HJK]

Coming to your post - what a short memory you have Shams. Where was all this indignation when the little innocent kids were kidnapped by the mother and taken to TB citadel in Bakersfield and no access was provided to the father.

Damn!!... I have yet to come across any Islamic literature where "Kidnap" and "mother" have been written in same sentence....that says quite a lot about the kind of malign propaganda people have been fed by DMBS PR team.

The kids have experienced this and there animosity and loathing of their mothers is based on solid reason and experience.
Now the moms are crying crocodile tears - tab yaad nahi aaya jab kidnap kar ke bhaag rahi thi

I wonder how come you were privy to what exactly transpired there and with the kids..you surely seem to have unrestricted access to both sides....i am mot sure how many on this forum are even taking you seriously(also since you have claimed to be a Dai)....in your words "good going till now"

So you deny that taking away kids without the knowledge to the fathers and families but also the children themselves is kidnap?
Also there is a possibility that the children themselves are not interested in thier morher for what they have done instead of something being asked from them.

Do you know that there are audio recordings of what transpired in bakersfield and how children were literally forced to accept SKQ as dai and much more that happened!! Yes the children themselves have recorded stuff.

Now if there in bakersfield children did this without even access to the father you can very well judge the rest.