I am not sure if you meant it or not but the use of the word "accomplice" in
is not appropriate.Allah Subhanahu and 73 accomplice of hussain
what happens when you die
Re: what happens when you die
tahir,
I am not sure if you meant it or not but the use of the word "accomplice" in
I am not sure if you meant it or not but the use of the word "accomplice" in
Re: what happens when you die
A passive and hypocritic stance frequently taken by kothar apologists.Originally posted by WYP:
I have faith that my Dai is leading me on the Siraat-e-Mustaqeem. The distractions and temptations to stray from this path are many, but like many here like to say, I have my blinders on. I may occasionally stray a little, but my Dai is there to guide me back. Some of those distractions may be corruption in the jamaat administration, may even involve amils and the Dai's family members, Allah Ta'ala will judge them in His court. My resolve and my faith remains unshaken by these distractions.
Hasn't the same Allah Ta'ala given you the faculties to discriminate between right and wrong and to fight corruption right here (Jehad). You are shirking away from your responsibilities (I mean if you believe in Islam) by calling it as 'distractions' and thereby breaking your covenent with Allah Ta'ala. Aren't you?
By the same token you should not care to believe in Dai and respect him since Allah Ta'ala will judge in his court if the Dai was believable/respectable or not. huh?
Re: what happens when you die
Anajmi,
Thanks for pointing that out.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Re: what happens when you die
My responsibilities are to follow the 7 Da'im of Islam, the first of which is Walayah. Without Walayah, there is nothing. Jehad is not about fighting corruption. Jehad is to fight your own animal instinct. Look, for me it is very simple. The Dai is my guide in this life, I follow the 7 Da'im with Qusoor, and I strive to improve my benefits both here and in akherat. There is nothing apologetic or hypocritical in this. If you feel that it is, I cannot do anything about it.Originally posted by tahir:
A passive and hypocritic stance frequently taken by kothar apologists.
Hasn't the same Allah Ta'ala given you the faculties to discriminate between right and wrong and to fight corruption right here (Jehad). You are shirking away from your responsibilities (I mean if you believe in Islam) by calling it as 'distractions' and thereby breaking your covenent with Allah Ta'ala. Aren't you?
By the same token you should not care to believe in Dai and respect him since Allah Ta'ala will judge in his court if the Dai was believable/respectable or not. huh?
Re: what happens when you die
Certainly you can not and you will not do anything about 'it'...your apathy is kothar's delight.
Re: what happens when you die
Do you fight your animal instincts that tempts you into believing that overlooking corruption is ok ?Jehad is not about fighting corruption. Jehad is to fight your own animal instinct
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accountability
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Re: what happens when you die
wyp: thanks for the articulate reply.The Dai should live his life as he sees fit. If the Dai thinks that he requires a palace in every country, so be it. If he thinks that a small hut is enough, so be it. As per my faith, the Dai has complete authority to do as he pleases. That is my faith.
Your reply also raises some basic question. Let us analyze your reply in detail. You said, "The Dai should live his life as he sees fit." It is a very general expression. Let me put it this way, Aga khan lives in paris, had married a french lady, divorced, etc, he owns hotels, which sells liquors, promotes gambling, breeds horses for gambling so forth and so on. He claims to be the imam of ismaili sect. He claims the same privilage, as syedna saheb does. He also claims to be inheritor of fatimid dynasty, like syedna saheb claims to be the vice of fatimid imam. Now if you can not concur with aga khan's way of life, then your generalised expression, that syedna saheb may live a life as he sees fit, looses merit. If you do concur, with aga khan's life style, then you will have to change whole dynamics of religion.
What if future dai wants to live a life similar to that of aga khan. will he still be living a life according to sharia. This bags another question, what is the status of dai in our relgion, if he carries special privilages, then he has special duties too, foremost among them will be to follow sharia.
Sharia may not allow dai to live life, as he pleases.
The palaces, that he may require to propogate fatimid dawah, should also be reuired under sharia. The institute of dai is an institution, which carries high responsibility. The person representing the institution should merit.
Re: what happens when you die
No I fight my instinct to challenge a system put in place by the Dai-ul-Mutlaq. Again thats because of my faith. You are free to fight anything and anyone you want.Originally posted by tahir:
Do you fight your animal instincts that tempts you into believing that overlooking corruption is ok ?Jehad is not about fighting corruption. Jehad is to fight your own animal instinct
Re: what happens when you die
What the Aga Khan does or does not do is of no concern to me. You need to take up that question with someone else.Originally posted by accountability:
Aga khan lives in paris, had married a french lady, divorced, etc, he owns hotels, which sells liquors, promotes gambling, breeds horses for gambling so forth and so on. He claims to be the imam of ismaili sect. He claims the same privilage, as syedna saheb does. He also claims to be inheritor of fatimid dynasty, like syedna saheb claims to be the vice of fatimid imam. Now if you can not concur with aga khan's way of life, then your generalised expression, that syedna saheb may live a life as he sees fit, looses merit. If you do concur, with aga khan's life style, then you will have to change whole dynamics of religion.
What if future dai wants to live a life similar to that of aga khan. will he still be living a life according to sharia. This bags another question, what is the status of dai in our relgion, if he carries special privilages, then he has special duties too, foremost among them will be to follow sharia.
Sharia may not allow dai to live life, as he pleases.
The palaces, that he may require to propogate fatimid dawah, should also be reuired under sharia. The institute of dai is an institution, which carries high responsibility. The person representing the institution should merit.
You are talking major hypotheticals here. Show me which Dai-ul-Mutlaq among the line of 52 has renounced Shariah?
Re: what happens when you die
WYP,Show me which Dai-ul-Mutlaq among the line of 52 has renounced Shariah?
Can you explain kadambosi, sajda for dai, laanat and baraat through sharia ?
Also I would appreciate if you point out a reference to Dai-ul-Mutlaq in Quran.
Re: what happens when you die
Search the archives. This has been discussed to death by others here. Ask your family members, those with the titles. They might help or know who to contact. If you are sincere in your request you will get the answers you seek. Sorry to disappoint you.Originally posted by tahir:
WYP,
Can you explain kadambosi, sajda for dai, laanat and baraat through sharia ?
Also I would appreciate if you point out a reference to Dai-ul-Mutlaq in Quran.
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accountability
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Re: what happens when you die
WYP: Thankyou sir. Let me assure you, I am not at all for only critcism and I do believe, that prior to finding a thorn in other's eye, I should first look for shehteer in my own eye.
I have my own general opinion about religion. But I am a practicing dawoodi bohra.
Your emphasis on complete and blind faith, logically carry not much wieght. As we go by your system of belief, then we would not be bohra today. As our fore fathers having complete and blind faith in their religion would never have been converted. But they did convert to bohraism.
Should we say, that by conversion, they betrayed their past religion, and according to your theory, one should not question or even ponder on faith, you are even including personalities to be followed blindly and completely without asking and inquiring. So our forefathers committed betryal. Now the question arises, how would they be treated in hereafter.
According to their old faith, they were doomed, but would new faith take them to a better place of abode. If the answer for the later is yes, then their conversion was based on merits, thoughtfullness and realization. How could they do that, by critically analyzing their faith.
There were differences on nass on atleast two occassions. Even one of the contender went to Jehangir's court for remedy. In the recent period, one dai died without nass, and then there was difference, that the same is mutlaq or nazim.
If nass nazim is correct, then all the dais after that will be nazim dais, and not mutlaq ones.
Then again, you do not want to know the history.
I have my own general opinion about religion. But I am a practicing dawoodi bohra.
Your emphasis on complete and blind faith, logically carry not much wieght. As we go by your system of belief, then we would not be bohra today. As our fore fathers having complete and blind faith in their religion would never have been converted. But they did convert to bohraism.
Should we say, that by conversion, they betrayed their past religion, and according to your theory, one should not question or even ponder on faith, you are even including personalities to be followed blindly and completely without asking and inquiring. So our forefathers committed betryal. Now the question arises, how would they be treated in hereafter.
According to their old faith, they were doomed, but would new faith take them to a better place of abode. If the answer for the later is yes, then their conversion was based on merits, thoughtfullness and realization. How could they do that, by critically analyzing their faith.
There were differences on nass on atleast two occassions. Even one of the contender went to Jehangir's court for remedy. In the recent period, one dai died without nass, and then there was difference, that the same is mutlaq or nazim.
If nass nazim is correct, then all the dais after that will be nazim dais, and not mutlaq ones.
Then again, you do not want to know the history.
Re: what happens when you die
accty,
As WYP suggests, if you go through the archives, it will become clear that kadambosi, sajda for dai, laanat and baraat cannot be explained through sharia except by the most twisted of interpretations. I can say this because I have participated in a lot of those discussion and have first hand knowledge.
As WYP suggests, if you go through the archives, it will become clear that kadambosi, sajda for dai, laanat and baraat cannot be explained through sharia except by the most twisted of interpretations. I can say this because I have participated in a lot of those discussion and have first hand knowledge.
Re: what happens when you die
I would like to know that considered that the nass was not done by the dai mentioned above, then should this tradition of daism be discontinued?also i would like to ask to mr insaf that who can be a dai if the need for such a leader arises. should he be nominated or should he be elected?If he is to be elected then who are the ones to decide for the election?Originally posted by accountability:
WYP: There were differences on nass on atleast two occassions. Even one of the contender went to Jehangir's court for remedy. In the recent period, one dai died without nass, and then there was difference, that the same is mutlaq or nazim.
If nass nazim is correct, then all the dais after that will be nazim dais, and not mutlaq ones.
Then again, you do not want to know the history.
Re: what happens when you die
You didn't disappoint me but reinforced the ortho stereotype. And no, people with title are blank just like you and just like the one who 'bestowed' them titles. That is why my conscience had to fight out my animal instinct of being tempted into that glittering system.Originally posted by WYP:
Search the archives. This has been discussed to death by others here. Ask your family members, those with the titles. They might help or know who to contact. If you are sincere in your request you will get the answers you seek. Sorry to disappoint you.
Golly!!Originally posted by WYP:
I am not the one making unsubstantiated claims
Re: what happens when you die
acc'ty,
Good point !
Good point !
Re: what happens when you die
ASGARALI ENGG IS ELECTED AS DAI FOR PROG DAWOODI BOHRA....MUBARAK TO TAHIR,OM,INSAF,ACCOUNT,...ETC HAPPY NOW
Re: what happens when you die
galaxee,I would like to know that considered that the nass was not done by the dai mentioned above, then should this tradition of daism be discontinued?
If you ask me, daism and for that matter any 'ism' should have been discontinued a long back. Humanity has had enough...it needs to be defragmented now.
Re: what happens when you die
An atheist will say the same thing about all religions. Similarly you can make the claim that blind faith in the Quran and ahadith is illogical. There is no logic in faith. You believe first and then you learn.Originally posted by accountability:
Your emphasis on complete and blind faith, logically carry not much wieght.
Regarding the nass, what I have learned has convinced me the the current Dai is the true Dai. You are free to think otherwise. I am not here to try and change your mind.
As regards unsubstantiated claims, in all my posts, I only speak for myself and my beliefs. I don't claim that 90% people think the same way as I do.
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accountability
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Re: what happens when you die
Anajmi: thankyou for pointing out.
Tahir, wyp, and all others.
I am taking this oppurtunity to convey my feelings about our religion and its compulsions on our day to day life.
I was grown up as an ordinary kid, with strong relgious guidance, I went to madrassa. I learned to read namaz, when I was only seven years old. I learned quran, Sadiq ali's nasihat, and so on. As I was growing up in a bohri mohalla, I was also observing. In the 60's when I was 10 years old. I remember going to masjid not so often for majlis etc.
My grandfather used to go to masjid for fajr and maghrib prayers. I would accompany him sometimes. He was a very kind and loving person. He would not force me to go, but rather entice me with candy etc. What I observed was a genuine humane face of relgion, no show off, nothing extravagant etc.
There were some urs majlis, and niyaz will only be in tayebi jamat khana. No mandatory contribution, you may put one ruppee in the box or whatever. Not every day was eventful. I did not hear celebration of birth anniversaries like today of anyone, it may have been there, but not very obvious or noticeable.
The only thing required to go to masjid was a topi, You may go in for prayers in pant shirt, do the praying and that was it. A sublte routine, with not so much of fear.
Calm routine did not mean, that socially it was not alive, as i was growing up, in early seventies, there were always books and copies distribution outside of adam masjid. I also remeber, that common bohras were very helping to each other. Families used to be together with love and affection.
During late seventies, some changes started happening, but not much changed. It was a slow process, with still the old guards and old values at work.
In 1984, syedna saheb had jamia inaugrated by then president zia ul haque, It was an exclusive event, with little participation of ordinary or even the titled ones, only elites of bohras were invited. I was not invited by jamat, but by virtue of my officail capacity, I was part of the delegation of officails. Well as I was not invited as bohra, so i felt no obligation to wear kurta hizar or topi. I was just dressed in shalwar kameez, like most of the delegation.
syedna saheb led the zohar prayer, as zia ul haque was very exhibitionist in his religious duties, there was a recess for zohar prayer. I also prayed behind him, like every body else did.
According to our doctorine, you are not supposed to read namaz behind anyone else,or lead namaz.
I dont know,... well I was doing the right thing, by praying behind syedna saheb. very few bohra people knew me at that time, so I thought, that I wont be noticed. No one said anything at that time. But I was surprised when after a month, some one from jamat visited me, he was not rude or imposing. But I was told that by attending the function, I broke their discipline. I told them, that I did not come as a member of bohra community, actually I was one of the invitee, I got my invitation in official capacity. he seemed not to be happy.
The jamia in karachi was a prelude to present compulsive system. With the opening of jamia in karachi, very calculatedly people were flocked into believing that Jamia will be the nursery for their kids, and they will come out with bright future.
Mid eighties, we saw fast changes happeing, very demanding and total submission was made a requisite to remain in community. Suddenly, green card system was introduced, every family was called in to total submission. People, who defied, or defied a bit were made examples.
With this, never ending fiduciary demands were put forward, with the introduction of present wajebat system.
In mid nineties, they had the first graduates from jamia, also brain washed, and totally submissive, they were unleashed on common folks, and the results were very encouraging for kothar.
syedna saheb's sons had wrestled complete control
control, by sidelinging mazoon saheb etc, with the colobration of Yousuf bhai saheb (late) sons connivance.
jamia in karachi was a move, that gave administration an operating force. First badges of jamia were readily abosorbed, as there were vacancies available. Seeing this, more and more people tried to get into jamia, as it was free with boarding lodging etc, and a job with perks after graduation.
Lately what is happeing is, that rampant corruption has travelled downward in jamia, in amils etc. Syedna saheb's family, as they suddenly became rich, got used to very lavish lifestyle, with no regard for money. They were also not able to create as many vaccancies to match the no of graduates. Those grads were no good in ordinary life for any thing. As they had no skills, other than just to submitt or impose submission on others.
Now syedna saheb is his later stage, his immediate family is feeling very insecure, but they have learned one thing, that by going public with their difference, they have everything to lose.
WYP and others are abetting for two reasons, one because of their blind faith, other, they are in connivance with the administration in manipulating and exploiting the ordinary beings.
WYP knows from his heart, that total submission, calling syedna's sons shehzadas has nothing to do with shariat or religion. But irony is, with this knowledge he is determined to defend and prepetrate the same attitude for not understandable reasons.
Tahir, wyp, and all others.
I am taking this oppurtunity to convey my feelings about our religion and its compulsions on our day to day life.
I was grown up as an ordinary kid, with strong relgious guidance, I went to madrassa. I learned to read namaz, when I was only seven years old. I learned quran, Sadiq ali's nasihat, and so on. As I was growing up in a bohri mohalla, I was also observing. In the 60's when I was 10 years old. I remember going to masjid not so often for majlis etc.
My grandfather used to go to masjid for fajr and maghrib prayers. I would accompany him sometimes. He was a very kind and loving person. He would not force me to go, but rather entice me with candy etc. What I observed was a genuine humane face of relgion, no show off, nothing extravagant etc.
There were some urs majlis, and niyaz will only be in tayebi jamat khana. No mandatory contribution, you may put one ruppee in the box or whatever. Not every day was eventful. I did not hear celebration of birth anniversaries like today of anyone, it may have been there, but not very obvious or noticeable.
The only thing required to go to masjid was a topi, You may go in for prayers in pant shirt, do the praying and that was it. A sublte routine, with not so much of fear.
Calm routine did not mean, that socially it was not alive, as i was growing up, in early seventies, there were always books and copies distribution outside of adam masjid. I also remeber, that common bohras were very helping to each other. Families used to be together with love and affection.
During late seventies, some changes started happening, but not much changed. It was a slow process, with still the old guards and old values at work.
In 1984, syedna saheb had jamia inaugrated by then president zia ul haque, It was an exclusive event, with little participation of ordinary or even the titled ones, only elites of bohras were invited. I was not invited by jamat, but by virtue of my officail capacity, I was part of the delegation of officails. Well as I was not invited as bohra, so i felt no obligation to wear kurta hizar or topi. I was just dressed in shalwar kameez, like most of the delegation.
syedna saheb led the zohar prayer, as zia ul haque was very exhibitionist in his religious duties, there was a recess for zohar prayer. I also prayed behind him, like every body else did.
According to our doctorine, you are not supposed to read namaz behind anyone else,or lead namaz.
I dont know,... well I was doing the right thing, by praying behind syedna saheb. very few bohra people knew me at that time, so I thought, that I wont be noticed. No one said anything at that time. But I was surprised when after a month, some one from jamat visited me, he was not rude or imposing. But I was told that by attending the function, I broke their discipline. I told them, that I did not come as a member of bohra community, actually I was one of the invitee, I got my invitation in official capacity. he seemed not to be happy.
The jamia in karachi was a prelude to present compulsive system. With the opening of jamia in karachi, very calculatedly people were flocked into believing that Jamia will be the nursery for their kids, and they will come out with bright future.
Mid eighties, we saw fast changes happeing, very demanding and total submission was made a requisite to remain in community. Suddenly, green card system was introduced, every family was called in to total submission. People, who defied, or defied a bit were made examples.
With this, never ending fiduciary demands were put forward, with the introduction of present wajebat system.
In mid nineties, they had the first graduates from jamia, also brain washed, and totally submissive, they were unleashed on common folks, and the results were very encouraging for kothar.
syedna saheb's sons had wrestled complete control
control, by sidelinging mazoon saheb etc, with the colobration of Yousuf bhai saheb (late) sons connivance.
jamia in karachi was a move, that gave administration an operating force. First badges of jamia were readily abosorbed, as there were vacancies available. Seeing this, more and more people tried to get into jamia, as it was free with boarding lodging etc, and a job with perks after graduation.
Lately what is happeing is, that rampant corruption has travelled downward in jamia, in amils etc. Syedna saheb's family, as they suddenly became rich, got used to very lavish lifestyle, with no regard for money. They were also not able to create as many vaccancies to match the no of graduates. Those grads were no good in ordinary life for any thing. As they had no skills, other than just to submitt or impose submission on others.
Now syedna saheb is his later stage, his immediate family is feeling very insecure, but they have learned one thing, that by going public with their difference, they have everything to lose.
WYP and others are abetting for two reasons, one because of their blind faith, other, they are in connivance with the administration in manipulating and exploiting the ordinary beings.
WYP knows from his heart, that total submission, calling syedna's sons shehzadas has nothing to do with shariat or religion. But irony is, with this knowledge he is determined to defend and prepetrate the same attitude for not understandable reasons.
Re: what happens when you die
Shahzadas my foot.They are more like dakoos.Have you seen their faces.Dont agree,print the pictures.Even Yassir Arfat was handsobe compared to our dakoos.
Re: what happens when you die
seeker there is no need to describe your disfugured face.if you dont like it than its GOD's wish.what can one do.be satisfied with life as it is.
Re: what happens when you die
I did not really want to know your life story, but thanks anyway. However, I did not understand your comment above, in italics.Originally posted by accountability:
I also prayed behind him, like every body else did.
According to our doctorine, you are not supposed to read namaz behind anyone else,or lead namaz.
WYP and others are abetting for two reasons, one because of their blind faith, other, they are in connivance with the administration in manipulating and exploiting the ordinary beings.
WYP knows from his heart, that total submission, calling syedna's sons shehzadas has nothing to do with shariat or religion. But irony is, with this knowledge he is determined to defend and prepetrate the same attitude for not understandable reasons.
Also based on your story, I have no idea how you could call yourself a practising Muslim, let alone a bohra? Looking back at some of your threads, you did not even believe that the rituals of Islam are mandatory.
Also thanks for letting me know whats in my heart. I really needed to know that. BTW, I did not mention anywhere that calling Syedna's son's as Shehzada's is required by Shariah or religion. Please scroll through this thread for my answer to your question.
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accountability
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Re: what happens when you die
Yes, we are not supposed to read namaz behind any other imam, except the one with raza. And Our imams are not to lead prayers to anyone, but mumineen. you may ask this from any mualim.
I was not trying to tell you the story of my life, I was just describing the jamat evoloution during my lifetime. You may refute it, if it is not true.
I have already said, that I have my own views about relgion in general. But I have also said, that I am a practicing bohra.
I was not trying to tell you the story of my life, I was just describing the jamat evoloution during my lifetime. You may refute it, if it is not true.
I have already said, that I have my own views about relgion in general. But I have also said, that I am a practicing bohra.
Re: what happens when you die
WYP my friend,I did not really want to know your life story
You would not only NOT want to listen to anyone's story but you are incapable of absorbing it since you are already saturated with fairytales doled out in sabaqs and waaz. A different perspective poses the danger of putting your conscience under stress and you don't want to take the hassle. Do you? Afterall, the comforts of animal living are too gratifying to relinquish.
As Average Bohra mentioned somewhere, following is very easy, thinking and questioning difficult.
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Muslim First
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Re: what happens when you die
.Br. Accounty;
AS
Brother you do not read Namaz, You perfom Namaz. Reading Namaz is direct translation of "Namaz Padho". You also do not read Nikah, you perfoem Nikah.
Wasalaam
.
AS
Brother you do not read Namaz, You perfom Namaz. Reading Namaz is direct translation of "Namaz Padho". You also do not read Nikah, you perfoem Nikah.
Wasalaam
.
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Muslim First
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Re: what happens when you die
perfom shoud read perform, sorry
Re: what happens when you die
A more appropriate word would be 'recite'.
Re: what happens when you die
even more appropiate would be 'REPLAY'