Where are the old members??

[Humsafar]

No I did not, the Prophet is only a messenger. The messenger has no input in the content of the message (the Quran) itself. But even if you bring the Prophet into the mix, the logic becomes a three-way reference and goes into a loop. No matter how many actors/elements you bring in it will end up being the same, until the claims can be verified independently. Which is something philosophers have been struggling to do for centuries. So, ultimately it boils down to faith. If you choose to believe in a particular message, good for you.

My "hits" are not what you think they are.

[anajmi]

A couple more ayahs specifically for you from the message that our enlightened prophet (ﷺ) brought.

إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِـَٔايَـٰتِ ٱللَّهِ لَا يَهْدِيهِمُ ٱللَّهُ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ
Surely those who do not believe in Allah’s revelations will never be guided by Allah, and they will suffer a painful punishment.

إِنَّمَا يَفْتَرِى ٱلْكَذِبَ ٱلَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِـَٔايَـٰتِ ٱللَّهِ ۖ وَأُو۟لَـٰٓئِكَ هُمُ ٱلْكَـٰذِبُونَ
No one fabricates lies except those who disbelieve in Allah’s revelations, and it is they who are the ˹true˺ liars.

surah An Nahl ayahs 104 - 105

Dear Humsafar, you are all over the place. The messenger is enlightened, but the message he brings is not. People opposed his message and treated him like a mad man but his message is a logical fallacy.

You need to reduce the number of hits on that enlightenment juice.

I think you will keep making these contradictory arguments and no matter what I say, it is not going to change your mind. You know why? the answer lies in the above two ayahs that I have quoted. My arguments over here aren't going to matter. If the matter has been decreed by the Lord Almighty, you will always present a counter argument and it won't matter how silly or contradictory to your own statements it is.

May Allah show us all the true path.

[Humsafar]

Bro anajmi,

What I'm trying to say all along is that no matter how enlightened a person is and no matter how enlightened their message is, it cannot help you with your own enlightenment. As they say in the Buddhist tradition :"I am a finger pointing to the moon. Don’t look at me; look at the moon.”. Seeking the moon (enlightenment) is a personal "spiritual" journey that each one of us must take. But it seems you're having a hard time understanding this. So let's leave it at that. It is always good to engage with you. Peace.

[Biradar]

Bro anajmi,

What I'm trying to say all along is that no matter how enlightened a person is and no matter how enlightened their message is, it cannot help you with your own enlightenment. As they say in the Buddhist tradition :"I am a finger pointing to the moon. Don’t look at me; look at the moon.”. Seeking the moon (enlightenment) is a personal "spiritual" journey that each one of us must take. But it seems you're having a hard time understanding this. So let's leave it at that. It is always good to engage with you. Peace.

So I agree with the essential sentiment here. Clearly, the effort must be made by each of us individually. There is no drug or magic wand that will get us to any "enlightened" state. The situation is analogous to that of learning, say, calculus. You will not think up the concepts yourself. (Unless you are a Newton or Leibniz, of course). You have to be taught. Hence, religious texts provide a guide towards individual salvation. Particularly in Islam the onus is on the individual to make an effort. We are responsible for our own actions, and unlike Catholicism, there is no general absolution we can receive from a priest.

Now, the Quran is such a vast ocean that to understand even a small fraction of its meanings we need to be taught by someone else who has been on that path before us. Of course, the first teacher was the Prophet himself. Then, depending on which tradition you belong to, your source of knowledge of the meaning of the Quran will vary. The Shi'as believe in that the teachings of the Imams and their representatives are the most accurate and authentic, as they inherited the post-Prophetic mission of elucidating the meaning or the Quran. The teacher par-excellence, after the Prophet, is Ali and then the Imams. Of course, in other traditions too there is a rich heritage of Quranic interpretation and many of them are valuable too. But clearly, without recourse to this there is no chance to achieve any sort of understanding, except a very superficial one obtained from reading random translations.

In any case, I agree that we must not look at the finger, but instead focus on the moon.