How many more Masjids?

[MOHD HUSSAIN]

Br Qiyam: I can not but help laughing at your answers! You can not accept your defeat easily but you must still come out with illogical nonsense!I have talked to several of my friends who go to the marcaz & have never heard annual report "overhead" like you described!

[qiyam]

Dear Anwar,
I attention a sunni masjid as well. The post an annual report in the masjid every year. Note...it is in the masjid. This is standard for the four sunni masjids in our area.

Why is so strange to call a majalis of all members and as part of a daris majalis give a report to the entire group at once. In all of civilized society..this is how it is done...its called a MEETING.

[Muslim First]

.

At our Islamic Center Audited Annual report is available to anybody. It is presented to gernerl Body meeting, discussed and apporoved.

Board meets every month and treasurer gives accounting for that month. Board meetings are announced and all interested persons can attend.

We have elected Board with safeguards to prevent takeover.

Wasalaam

(BTW you can checkout our center @ http://www.icbwayland.org/)

.

[Anwar]

Dear Br qiyam
I have nothing against either the use of overhead projector or as you call a "meeting" in masjit or during daris majlis,but only question that no paper copies are distributed to anybody.As I have no experience(just like most on this board, I think) of such a meeting, is there any discussion on the report, or does one just have to take it or leave it?

[qiyam]

Dear Anwar,
You are correct, no paper copies were issued. As far as discussion, the treasurer asked if anyone had questions afterward..or written questions were brought up. Of course, questions were asked after the majalis in private as well. This last part is probably more important.

You see if you don't check these person...and let the mind to always wonder on these issues...people start making up theire own conclusions.

For instance, during the construction of the masjid...financial report are usually given every 2 to 3 months during a majalis. Everyone see all this pledges and donations...and then wonder why are the funds always short!? Where is all the money going the people donate? Why is it taking so long?

The answers are simple...those that pledges $5k and $10k at a time haven't paid yet. In the Chicago Masjid...nearly half the members of the jamat didn't give their pledged amounts. The same happened in Houston.

And then there's the sabil...and why they increase. Well if you asked the committee members...you'd know. People stealing dishes and sundries from the jamat khannas, fixing things that members break, and general maintance of a masjid/markaz that must be done by contractors (who don't come cheap). Then of course, again, the minority of the jamat foots the bill. You think just because you paid your wajibaat truthfully...that everyone does. I can tell you from experience that this is a false assumption.

But there is some sort of good news!!! This happens in every community..from the sunnis, ithna asharis, agha khannis, etc.

[Muddai]

Qiyam,

Well then, can you name one Masjid that owns an Overhead Projector ?

Can you please provide details on how an entire Masjid can view financials on an Overhead Projector (lot's of little numbers on an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet) and then ask questions ?????

I am assuming there were none !

[Muddai]

...questions that is....

[Namaskar]

"The moneies that go to the khotar (the Dai) are the monies due to him as representative of the Imam. This is why you haven't seen an annual report from khotar. This is not a business..it is religion."

The accountability is to Imam. So Imam Ghayab accountability Ghayab. Simple!?

[Muslim First]

.

One of the commet by br. qiyam:

"People stealing dishes and sundries from the jamat khannas,"

Do God fearing Mumeen partake in such a petty crime?

How about having papper goods to take lefover home?

Wasalaam

.

[MOHD HUSSAIN]

Br Qiyam ; You wrote about the kothar being the religion & not the business- Is it so? then why do they fix up the prices of salams for Sheikhs,Mullahs, iftetah of masjids, Mithaqs,Wajebats & Lot more thing than i can think of?Is n'T this a big business?Do you call this religion ?

[MOHD HUSSAIN]

Br Namaskar: Welcome to the site- Very nicely put about the accountabilty of the Syedna!

[qiyam]

Dear Muslimfirst,
Whether they are stealing or using because they are poor...the accountability is to them and the judgement is for Allah. Either way the items are gone and need to be replaced.

These items are the ones used in the thaal, such as glass plates and bowls...not for the leftovers.

In fact, I know in some masjids (Dallas in particular) over a period of six month...10 thaals disappeared and 8 kunlis (thaal holders). Needless to say, the entire jamaat is being punished, anyone who rents the halls must pay (whether they took it or not) for things stolen. If things taken outside these private events...to cover the costs...the sabil increases.

Dear Mhd. Hussain,
I have never heard anyone fixing the price of any of the things you mentioned. Please be more specific.

Dear Muddai,
Ever heard of writing big and using more than one sheet of paper? Most masjids rent overhead projectors as needed.

Dear Namaskar,
As part of my faith, I never would question the actions of the Imam...let alone ask for accountability from him. As the representative of the Imam..in every way...I never would question the actions of the Dai.

[MOHD HUSSAIN]

br Qiyam; Here is one of the true letter from a suffering mumin that you can read & experience since you sound like coming more from a Mulla class you don't get to see & hear these stories but believe me if you can go to ordinary folks & chat with them they will all tell you such shocking encounters with Amils & Kothar!"JARIWALA
Junior Member
Member # 413

posted 11-14-2002 02:45 PM
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Bro Pongi Bohra,

These people are trickier than mouse,you can trap mouse but not amils or kothars bandit.We pay huge some of money(false receipts are issued)Zakaat etc,not a single cent goes to needy and poor bohras.I seen bohris begging for money in Mumbai rozas,and here in Dar-Es-Salaam poor Bohra women are selling their bodies to pay school fees and rents.Situation is very bad in Dar.Yes,Killing an elephant cost US$10,000.

Alihussein "

[Humsafar]

“As part of my faith, I never would question the actions of the Imam...let alone ask for accountability from him. As the representative of the Imam..in every way...I never would question the actions of the Dai.”

Qiyam,

The faith that does not permit doubt and questioning is a dead faith. It’s stagnant, fetid and malarial. There can be no spirituality in a faith which does not allow an element of doubt. What in fact you’re professing is dogma not faith. By surrendering to dogma – which lead to fanaticism, as in your case – you have surrendered your freedom to think and decide for yourself. This is escape from freedom (Eric Fromm).

It’s not for nothing you guys are told to declare yourselves as abde/amte sayedna.

[qiyam]

Dear Humsafar,

You quote Eric Fromm saying:
The faith that does not permit doubt and questioning is a dead faith...

and then you say

It’s not for nothing you guys are told to declare yourselves as abde/amte sayedna.

---Doubt in faith is a human characteristic and is the one with weak iman (faith/belief). Faith is to obeyed and understood...not tested and tried and then understood and obeyed. This is the weak man's argument. It is no better than the popes of europe saying I don't understand how the world can be round when it is flat...so you are wrong and must be put to death.

[qiyam]

To add Humsafar:

Allah has told me He is my Master...and the Muhammad is also my master on this earth...and I should obey him in every way. If Muhammad is my master and the Wasi and Imams thereafter are upholding the rasilat of Muhammad...then they in fact are my master. The Prophet said that Ali is your master as I am your master (ghadir khum). It is not for the nothing that the companions of the Prophet and Imams refered to them as ya mawlana (oh our master).

[porus]

Dear Qiyam,

Allah has told you nothing! You are just spouting forth the brainwashing you received when you were little!

That is the case with all "religious" people who follow the religion of their birth. They are all equally true and all equally false!!

[qiyam]

Dear Porus,

[3.26] Say: O Allah, Master of the Kingdom! Thou givest the kingdom to whomsoever Thou pleasest and takest away the kingdom from whomsoever Thou pleasest, and Thou exaltest whom Thou pleasest and abasest whom Thou pleasest in Thine hand is the good; surety, Thou hast power over all things.

[3.32] Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.

[3.132] And obey Allah and the Apostle, that you may be shown mercy.

[4.59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

I follow the religion of my birth (ISLAM)...you obviously are in a religion outside of Islam...because you sure don't understand it.

[porus]

Mubaarak to you your smug sense of superiority over me.

I was responding to your statement "Allah has told me ...."

Actually you should have said "People who raised me up have told me..." The rest then makes sense.

You are perfectly entitled to your brainwashing. So is a Christian, who will take a stand opposite to the Quran by declaring that "Allah loves you regardless of whether you are an unbeliever or not and regardless of whether you sin"

[qiyam]

Dear Porus,
The Quran is a message for all mankind. It is a close a representation of God speaking to us as anything we can imagine. Thus when I wrote "Allah tells me..." I meant through reading the Quran..Allah tells me.

Sorry I apologize, I didn't understand you smug method of correcting me. If you think the Quran is brainwashing...then you have no need to discuss anything related to Islam...let alone bohra.

[porus]

Dear Qiyam,

The Quran is a message for all mankind. It is a close a representation of God speaking to us as anything we can imagine.

So are they all. All the world's scriptures!

We all know that Quran is Muhammad's speech. He claimed the verses are from God. Why is this any different from mediums who write tomes. These mediums claim they are from "Spirit" or "Spirits".

I happened to read Seth's musings and also "A Course in Miracles". You could believe they are from God if you have been brainwashed. They are that good!! Why would you believe Quran and not these or Adi Granth or Bhagvad Gita. All adherents of their favorite scriptures claim the same for them as Muslims claim for Quran. Each one is unique in the brainwashing they received.

Why not accept these as possible truth just as valid as othres and then follow each religion, say, two years at a time. Makes enormous sense!!

You then become a well-rounded religious person.

[MOHD HUSSAIN]

Br Qiyam : I found some quotes which apply to our discussion--(1.) The world holds two classes of men; 1-intelligent men without religion &2. Religious men without intelligence!(2)Organised religion is like organised crime- It preys on people's weakness-generates huge profits for it's operators and is almost impossible to eradicate!

[MOHD HUSSAIN]

Well put Br Porus- Who twists the religion & brain washes the people-the so called representatives of Allah,Imam ,Dai &so forth!

[Humsafar]

Qiyam,

I was not quoting Eric Fromm except the last two sentences with refrence to escape to freedom. No matter.

Why should not faith be questioned? Everthing should be questioned. Every authority divine or otherwise must prove its legitimacy and validity. Otherwise all scriptures are in danger of becoming dogma and all prophets (imams, dais) end up being worshipped.

You've every right to follow your masters. But don't force your masters down everyone's throats.

[qiyam]

Dear Porus,
Actually..no they don't compare to the Quran. The new testament are the words of Jesus according to mark, john, etc. The old testament is the transcription of men (not the Prophets) written some 2000 years after the occurances. The vedas were written down 1000 years after it was received. The Bhagavad Gita is a philosphical dialog between the god Krishna and the warrior Arjuna...and not words of Bhagavan. Buddha didn't believe in God. Majority of the other world religion are based on groups of traditions.

Yes they all say they are the words of God. None compare in critical analysis in authencity to the Quran.

Secondly, according to your statement "Each one is unique in the brainwashing they received" anyone who adheres to a faith is brainwashed. Well, I believe you've been brainwashed into your own faith..which is actually the belief of no faith (some call it athesism).

[qiyam]

Dear Humsafar,
"Why should not faith be questioned? Everthing should be questioned. Every authority divine or otherwise must prove its legitimacy and validity."

--I don't say you cannot question faith outside of the Ummah. It is however, a tenet of belief of Islam, that once you say the shahadah you have belief in Allah and the Prophet. So to questions belief after taking the shahadah (according to the laws of the Quran) you have in fact broken your shahadah and are no longer a muslim. This is the context from which I say what I do.

"Otherwise all scriptures are in danger of becoming dogma and all prophets (imams, dais) end up being worshipped."

---This is the argument of one who doesn't know his religion, let alone knowing the difference between worshipping and reverence.

"You've every right to follow your masters. But don't force your masters down everyone's throats."

---I don't care what or who you follow. It is when you tell me I am deifying the Prophet, Imam or Dai that your cramming down my throat..that I protest. Remember, it is you who is arguing against my faith...not the other way around.

[porus]

Dear Qiyam,

All scriptures of established religions were written down by persons who are believed to be not the recipients of the revelation. This is also the case with Quran.

Current compilation of the Quran is called Uthmani after the Khalifa in whose reign the Quran was officially published. What difference does it make how long the period elapsed between the death of the prophet and when it was written down. 1 day, 1 year, 1 decade? No, it makes no difference.

If the criterion is that the scripture must be penned by the recipient of the revelation, then the most authentic revelation is "A course in miracles" and others like it such as musings of Seth and Ronin. These are very recent.

Zealots of Islam forget that the agreement on Quran amongst Muslims is empty of meaning. Only agreement appears to be that all agree on symbols (letters and diacritical marks that constitute the Quran). This apparent agreement does not extend to Quran's exegises.

But think about it, Quran was revealed as speech to Muhammad, not the written thing we all claim is the authentic Quran. No. Authentic Quran died with Muhammad. Quran was not sent down in written Arabic symbols. Even the diacritical marks are disputed amongst scholars.

Bohras make a public display of disagreemnt in at least one surat. In Alam Nashrah, Bohras say fansib, instead of fansab as it is shown in all the copies of the Quran. So, dear Qiyam, think on these things.

[Khairan]

> In Alam Nashrah, Bohras say fansib, instead of fansab as it is shown in all the copies of the Quran. So, dear Qiyam, think on these things.

Wow. I've heard this difference in recitation but never realized it was deliberate. Does anyone know the reason behind it and what the difference in pronunciation indicates?

shukran

[porus]

fansib instead of fansab?

Beats me!! There is bound to be baatin and taawil in this.

Considering the massacre (kachumbar) that Bohras make of Quran recitation, it seems pretty pointless to insist on this particular pronunciation.

They are actually two words. Fa + Ansab

Ansab is imperative derived from nasaba which means either to proclaim or to keep toiling away. Rules of modern grammar indicates the pronunciation to be fansab. However, there is a baatin in this for the Shia. The verse is commanding the prophet to nominate Ali as his successor and also to keep toiling away to ensure this nomination.

In Arabic, actual i and a are not important. It is the consonants that are important and my conclusion is that the pronunciation is traditional based on practice of some Imam. In Egypt pronunciation is different from Arabia. There is no other reason. Now hear me, stay in line. Do you hear?

[Humsafar]

Qiyam,

You swear by the Quran and its virtues because you "are born into this religion" (your words). This is an accident of birth. What if you were born to Christian or Hindu parents? I doubt you would then view Islam and its teachings in the same light as you do now.

So, the point is, you are married to the Islamic narrative by a mere accident of birth. There's no real seeking of truth involved in your quest for spirituality. You are merely repeating the cliches and platitudes of a received religion. In other words, brainwashing, as Porus never tires of asserting.