As Salaam U Aleikum brothers/sisters.

[Samadam]

As Salaam U Aleikum Wr Wb,

I have read this site a few times before and it has been very informative.

Just wanted to give a brief introduction about myself. I hail from a Bohra family, most of us became sunni, and about three years ago, al hamdo lilah i became a shia itna Ashari.

However, the struggle continues for the search of truth and knowledge, and thus my presence on this forum.

I have been in search of knowledgeable Bohras, who could perhaps answer many a questions that i have in mind and through that perhaps increase my knowledge and understanding.

It's very hard to try and research the Bohra faith, as most 'alims' don't encourage 'daring' questions... and most bohras (that i have encountered are not well versed), furthermore Bohra literature is very hard to come by as well.

Firstly, i would like to know whether any knowledgeable brother/sister would be interested in conducting a dialogue via certain (audio) softwares that are available on the internet, to discuss the 'root' of our differences.. which is the successor to the imamate after Imam Jafar As Sadiq (as). This way several people (like myself) could benefit from a healthy discussion b/w well versed individuals, and insha Allah better prepare ourselves for the 'akhira'. Please do let me know.

Jazak Allah Khair.

[anajmi]

br. Samadam,

If you want to better prepare for the akhira, forget about the Imams and the Imamat, go back to the quran and start following it. If you have doubts, read the ahadith or go talk to a sunni scholar who will have no problems answering any question that you might have.

[porus]

And, while you are taking brother anajmi's very laudable advice, make sure you actually follow the Quran and not one of its translations.

[anajmi]

Br. Samadam,

You have to remember, the first thing that the kotharis and the syedna did to kill the search for truth and knowledge was to prevent people from reading translations of the quran so that they could control them completely.

porus may be a kothari in disguise.

[porus]

Originally posted by anajmi:


porus may be a kothari in disguise.

From an atheist to a kothari in disguise! That is quite a transformation!! Now, I wonder how you ever knew I was on my own road to Damascus!

Maybe you learned all that taawil from a single post of mine!!!

[anajmi]

porus,

When a person calls another a monkey, does not mean that that person needs to have a tail!!

Maybe you learned all that taawil from a single post of mine!!!

Actually, you've said the same thing in pretty much every post of yours. Besides, taawil is your expertise, I just look at the obvious.

[Anwar]

Porus,can you please advise, if I cannot understand Quran, as I do not know Arabic, how then do I understand the Quran?
Which translation,in your oppinion,is the correct one?

[porus]

Anwar,

You learn Arabic.

In the meanwhile, you can read translations,...but with a pinch of salt. It is my opinion, and I believe that Quran itself states, that you will never really know the truth until you are in your grave.

Refer to surat 102.

Al-haakumu at-takaathur,
Hatta zur-tum ul-maqaabir
....etc.

If you rely only on literal translation, you will, I am sure, miss its import. As to how you will really know the meaning, as they say, "A teacher will appear when the student is ready."

You will get to know the meaning soon enough. Quran states that.

anajmi, of course, will not agree. He can read Yusufali's translation of Quran and immediately know the truth.

[tahir]

IMO, learning arabic and understanding Quran on your own could be more counterproductive than reading a translation from a native arab. Knowledge of cultural ethos is of supreme importance without which an interpretetion could be misleading.

Suppose there is this sentence " India mein sab chalta hai "

Me, tahir, being a native speaker of hindi and being brought up in India would translate it as " In India, everything is OK with people, which otherwise is unacceptable in Europe/US ".(while translating this I would also have to be aware of the ethos and values of my audience)

Now, if an American learns Hindi to understand this sentence, he would translate and interpret it as " Everything walks in India ".

[anajmi]

porus,

With your last post, I agree 100%. And I never quote Yusufali by himself. I have always quoted the translations from three different authors and before posting those three I have another at home which I refer to.

Every translation of the quran that you pick up, has a commentary associated with the translations. You probably never bothered to read it.

However, the only translation that you quote is your own. Now that, I would read with a pinch or a fistful of salt.

Anwar,

Remember, porus knows good Arabic, he still hasn't gotten the message. Go figure.

tahir,

A well made point. Besides, if I were to learn Arabic from someone, who would it rather be, Yusufali or porus?

[anajmi]

I forgot to mention, when I am still in doubt, I approach the Imam of our mosque, who is very well versed in Arabic (and is a believer).

So when porus says you have to learn Arabic, do not be too concerned. Most muslims on earth will die as believers without ever learning Arabic.

[Anwar]

Porus, thanks for the advise that I should learn Arabic.
You sound like a typical bohri mulla/sheikh, who insist that one should learn Arabic to understand Quran. They never accept you own choice of Quran translation, and they half the time dont know themselves.
An Arabic scholar with Arabic as his mother language had this to say, just by knowing Arabic is no guarantee one can translate the Quran. We the masses have to read the translation. If the translation was wrong, how come nobody has put a fatwa on them? And then who are you/we to question what is right and wrong?
You say this like any kothari mulla/sheikh, DO NOT READ YUSUFALI´S TRANSLATION.

[Samadam]

As Salaam U Aleikum Wr Wb,

Jazak Allah All for replying. I am still looking for someone who is an Ismaili who is willing to have a discussion on what happened after Imam Jaffar (as), as this is the 'root' of the difference b/w Itna Asharis and Ismailis, but al hamdo lilah atleast we atleat share the intense of love of the Ahlul Bayt (as).

Brother Anajmi,

With all due respect, your post assumed that i was an ignorant fool, who hasn't researched at all. Although i am quite ignorant, al hamdo lilah i have done my fair bit of research, and without a doubt, the imamate of Imam Ali (as) and the necessity of following the Ahlul Bayt (as) can be proved.

If you would like to discuss it on a seperate thread, we can and insha Allah only good will come out of it. Perhaps you will be able to educate me further, insha Allah. However, any discussion HAS to be with the intention of seeking the truth, and for that one has to shed biases/pre-conceived notions and so on. If you would like to do that, then please do let me know.

Jazak Allah Khair.

[anajmi]

br. Samadam,

I am afraid there is nothing more I have to discuss with you. Since the Imamat of Hazrat Ali and the necessity of following the Ahlul Bayt (as) can be proved, there wouldn't be any point now, would there?

[Samadam]

Brother Anajmi,

As Salaam u Aleikum Wr Wb,

Your posts indicated that you belong to the Ahlus Sunnah and that's why i suggested a discussion. You suggested that i go to a 'sunni' scholar and you told me to forget about imams and imamate to better prepare for my akhira.

I disagreed with your advice, and thus suggested a discussion, as i firmly believe that it can be proved from the AHLUS sunnah literature, the wilayat of Imam Ali (as) and the Hadith e Thaqalayn.

It seems that you don't want to discuss it, and so we won't, but if you ever do feel like doing so, please do let me know.

Jazak Allah Khair.

[porus]

Anwar,

I do not insist you do anything. I certainly do not insist you learn Arabic. You seem to be know English quite well. It is probably not your first language. Do you now translate English? You may look up dictionary now and then, but do you actually translate it? You probably do not.

You asked how to understand Quran without knowing Arabic? My view is that you cannot. I am not against translations. I attempt them myself. (However, I attempt to make very literal translations.)

What you read into Quran or translations is governed by 'superstructure of beliefs' of the translator and the reader. You should be aware of that.

Bohra interpretation is based on the superstructure of Fatemi gnosis as interpreted by Imams and the Dais.

Not one of these interpreattions is 'Truth'. In the end you will need to satisfy yourself whether you want to adopt one of the translations as your "personal truth" or come by it through your personal efforts.

Insisting on asking for a translation and explanation of Quran from others is abdication of personal responsibilty. You decide for yourself whether Yusufali or any other is good enough for you.

You cannot get nuances of Ghalib by reading translations in English and you cannot really get nuances of Quran unless you learn Arabic. I do not insist you learn it though.

[porus]

Anwar,

I agree with anajmi that knowing Arabic is not a requirement for being a 'good' Muslim.

[anajmi]

porus,

Bohra interpretation is based on the superstructure of Fatemi gnosis as interpreted by Imams and the Dais.

Is there a reason why the Bohra interpretation (or even the Ismaili interpretation for that matter) does not exist as a book that can be referenced or read?

[anajmi]

porus,

Insisting on asking for a translation and explanation of Quran from others is abdication of personal responsibilty. You decide for yourself whether Yusufali or any other is good enough for you.

Now you are spinning. Abdication of personal responsibility would be not trying to understand the quran because you do not know Arabic.

[anajmi]

br. Samadam,

You also suggested that "any discussion HAS to be with the intention of seeking the truth, and for that one has to shed biases/pre-conceived notions and so on. "

What you are bringing on the table is something that can be proved, so how can we have a discussion where "one has to shed biases/pre-conceived notions and so on."

[anajmi]

Originally posted by porus:
Anwar,

I agree with anajmi that knowing Arabic is not a requirement for being a 'good' Muslim.

or for understanding the quran. The quran says in the first surah

001.006
YUSUFALI: Show us the straight way,
PICKTHAL: Show us the straight path,
SHAKIR: Keep us on the right path.

001.007
YUSUFALI: The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
PICKTHAL: The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
SHAKIR: The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.

[porus]

anajmi,

Your understanding of Quran whether you read original Arabic or through a translation is your responsibility. If you say I follow such and such translation, then at least acknowledge that it is your interpretation of that translation.

When you meet your maker, you are not going to be able to pass the buck to a translator, unless you happen to be a Bohra. Then you can rely on Imam/Dai to speak for you.

[porus]

Originally posted by anajmi:
Now you are spinning. Abdication of personal responsibility would be not trying to understand the quran because you do not know Arabic.

Doesn't that depend on your intention? No one is forcing you to understand the Quran. Only the person who has the intention is responsible for understanding it for himself. If a person wishes not to understand it, whether he knows Arabic or not, I would certainly not call it abdicating his responsibility. His choice!

[Humsafar]

I agree with Porus in so far as he insists that much is lost in translation. This is true for any text in any language.

Those who do not know Arabic, like myself, have to ultimately depend on one translation of the Quran or the other to understand it. By doing so we of course miss the nuances and subtleties of the original Arabic but are at least able to get the basic, plain message of the Quran. This should be a good starting point. Those more interested can go deeper into studying commentaries and exegesis etc. Those who still remain unsatisfied could learn Arabic and go for the real McCoy. But learning a language takes a lifetime. And no people understand a language better than the native speakers.

The majority of Muslims are not native speakers of Arabic. And the majority among them, it is safe to say, have not even read any translation of the Quran in any language. This means that the majority of Muslims are ignorant of their religion – except for what they heard from their parents, mullahs etc. the part of the indoctrination process we all go through.

So where does this leave us? It is possible that the Quran was never meant for people other than Arabs. Either it should have been created in every language or should have been less ambiguous and esoteric. The universal message of the Quran is limited by the language Allah chose to reveal it in, and that ironically limits the validity of its universality.

I personally believe that the Quran is a great historical tract, but we have spent much too much energy, time and intellect discussing and analysing it than it truly deserves.

[anajmi]

porus

When you meet your maker, you are not going to be able to pass the buck to a translator, unless you happen to be a Bohra. Then you can rely on Imam/Dai to speak for you

Correct, that is the reason why I, as the quran commands, stay away from the "taawil", then there isn't much to worry about.

I say the namaz in Arabic, I read the quran in Arabic, I say all my duas in Arabic and when I ask for a car I do it in English or Gujarati. I doubt the maker is going to have much issues with that, unless a car in Arabic means a women in red.

[anajmi]

or namaz actually translates to "dancing with the opposite sex" in taawil. Hey who knows, if rivers and salah can become Imam and sabr can become the prophet, anything is possible.

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

Either it should have been created in every language or should have been less ambiguous and esoteric.

Out of the 6000+ ayahs in the quran we have discussed may be about 10 or 12 ayahs that are ambiguous or esoteric, and the quran prohibits muslims from worrying about what they mean.

But the quran also states that those who dwell on those ayahs are those with perversity in their hearts.

This means that the majority of Muslims are ignorant of their religion

The only word that comes to mind is "bullcrap", or is that two words?

[anajmi]

porus,

Here's the other problem, people like YusufAli, Pickthal, Shakir, you, are all well versed with Arabic and you contend that none of them have an accurate translation. What would make it any different in my case? Why do you think if I were to learn Arabic, I will do a better job?

Look are your own translations - "rab" translated to "lord", when ever 5th tom that you meet in London is a "lord" and every corrupt judge in the US and India is a "lord" too.

[Africawala]

Dear brother Samdam,

Do not feel bad if “thisâ€

[anajmi]

Africawala,

My friend, I have a question for you, can you tell me what time it is right now on the tree that you are hanging from in Africa?