It would be good if we all acted from “our hearts”. But institutions do not normally work that way, especially religious and political institutions. All organised religions (and political systems) sooner or later turn into tyrannies. The rulers of closed Muslim societies are no more interested in Islam than they are, let’s say, in saving the environment. Like all despots before them they are using religion as a tool to keep control on people.
Controlling the public mind is the biggest challenge rulers face. They must all secretly thank God for giving them religion so that they can distort it to their purpose and ram down peoples’ throats. Religion is the mother of all tools. When rulers can’t find any use for religion they will pick on race, ethnicity, language, culture, you name it.
It’s not difficult to understand why people would want to live in Saudi Arabia or prefer Taliban or our own brand of ‘royal’ mullahs. Those who do no want to think for themselves find safety in rigid systems where everything is offered cut and dried. It’s called collectivism or tribal collectivism. These systems offer certainties in which an individual can drown his/her anxieties about death and meaninglessness. Losing one’s freedom and self is the price they pay for this “spiritual safety”.
In this sense, even western societies are no different. They may not ram religions down peoples’ throats. But they do ram lots of other stuff down peoples’ throats, at home and abroad. And those things are the so-called free market ideology, neo-imperialism packaged as globalisaton, the mass media, consumerism, the pursuit of consumerist happiness etc. Add “terrorism” to list– the latest all-purpose tool to bludgeon people everywhere into silence and terror.
But there’s a big difference. People in western societies enjoy freedoms and civil liberties that are unheard of in Muslim societies. But these freedoms are hard won by peoples’ sacrifices – and alas are now being taken away by Baby Bush and his right-wing Christian ideologues. Is it any wonder that a theocratic Saudi Arabia and an extremist jewish state Israel are such close of allies of an imperial United States?
Anyways, it’s always a good thing to get rid of the mullahs – one less headache to deal with. Freedom – no matter how manipulated – is always better than no freedom at all.
Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
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Muslim First
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Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Br. Barwani
With Allah's grace and lots of prayers I am doing well for last 11 years and willing to face his call happily when time comes. Jazal Allah for kind words.
Wasalaam.
PS.: All of our kids should get educated inhow to talk religin with each other and to outsiders.
I would hope you will forgive the kid who crossed you. There are good things in Islam. Keep faith.
.
With Allah's grace and lots of prayers I am doing well for last 11 years and willing to face his call happily when time comes. Jazal Allah for kind words.
Wasalaam.
PS.: All of our kids should get educated inhow to talk religin with each other and to outsiders.
I would hope you will forgive the kid who crossed you. There are good things in Islam. Keep faith.
.
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Muslim First
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- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Br. Porus
With Allah's grace and lots of prayers I am doing well for last 11 years and willing to face his call happily when time comes. Jazak Allah for kind words.
Wasalaam
.
With Allah's grace and lots of prayers I am doing well for last 11 years and willing to face his call happily when time comes. Jazak Allah for kind words.
Wasalaam
.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Brother Barwani,
This is like the old saying, heads I win and tails you loose. If you want strip bars, nobody says you cannot. If you want to follow Islam, then you cannot, simple. If you still want to, then you can, but then you are no longer following Islam. You can go the nausicaa way, say God does not exist and do what you want to!!
The topic of discussion is whether a strip bar affects the growth of a nation. I don't think so.
Islam does not say people should be killed because they are disbelievers. That ayah has been taken out of context and till the day of judgement, disbelievers will always take it out of context, so there is no point in discussing it again and again. As I said before, the problems that Muslim nations have, have nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with making sure that the leaders do not loose power.
And I was talking about Islam in my post, not Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan, many of whose policies I personally do not agree with. Its the same mistake that everyone makes, equating Islam with Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan and know what, there is nothing anyone can do about it.
This is like the old saying, heads I win and tails you loose. If you want strip bars, nobody says you cannot. If you want to follow Islam, then you cannot, simple. If you still want to, then you can, but then you are no longer following Islam. You can go the nausicaa way, say God does not exist and do what you want to!!
The topic of discussion is whether a strip bar affects the growth of a nation. I don't think so.
Islam does not say people should be killed because they are disbelievers. That ayah has been taken out of context and till the day of judgement, disbelievers will always take it out of context, so there is no point in discussing it again and again. As I said before, the problems that Muslim nations have, have nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with making sure that the leaders do not loose power.
And I was talking about Islam in my post, not Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan, many of whose policies I personally do not agree with. Its the same mistake that everyone makes, equating Islam with Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan and know what, there is nothing anyone can do about it.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Know what, I will take the easy way out over here. I will blame the plight of the muslim nations on the western nations. Muslim countries have been sitting on the heart of the world for hundreds of years. The western nations have specific policies for the muslim nations. Dictatorship, with dictators who are puppets in the hands of the western nations. They rule their people with an iron hand so that they do not interfere in the work of the dictator to help the western nations grow. And hey, I may even be right!!!
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Let us look at some of the Muslim countries.
Saudi Arabia, amongst the richest countries in the world, lot of people with a lot of wealth. Before people from third world countries started coming to the US for jobs they would want to go to Saudi Arabia. Most of the time complaints against the Saudi's come from the western media.
Afghanistan, battle ground for decades, nothing to do with Islam. 7 years of Taleban rule and there is peace, complete eradication of opium growth and denial to a US company to build an oil pipeline. This leads to sanctions from the US and we have women begging on the roads. Did Islam do that, nope.
Iraq, amongst the most liberal Muslim nations and amongst the richest. Bloody war with Iran at the behest of the US. US permission to invade Kuwait and then betrayal. Sanctions kill the economy and more than a million Iraqis from a population of 17 million. Awaits another war even though it says that it does not have nuclear weapons. North Korea says it does and US wants to deal with it diplomatically!!! Did Islam do that, nope.
Kuwait, till a few years ago, it had the highest per capita income in the world. Iraq attacks at the behest of the US and now there is a permanent presence of the US leading to violence as I write. Did Islam do that, nope.
Brunei, not many can find it on a map, but the Sultan was the richest man in the world for 6 consecutive years before being overtaken by Bill Gates.
Palestine, If I have to write something about palestine to explain the position of the Muslims over there, to Muslims elsewhere, then all Muslims deserve to be whacked. Did Islam do that, nope.
Iran, also amongst the rich and the properous. Sanctions drive the economy into the wall. Because of Islam??? Yes, cause the west does not like a religious authority gaining power in the middle east. Oil becomes a problem.
Saudi Arabia, amongst the richest countries in the world, lot of people with a lot of wealth. Before people from third world countries started coming to the US for jobs they would want to go to Saudi Arabia. Most of the time complaints against the Saudi's come from the western media.
Afghanistan, battle ground for decades, nothing to do with Islam. 7 years of Taleban rule and there is peace, complete eradication of opium growth and denial to a US company to build an oil pipeline. This leads to sanctions from the US and we have women begging on the roads. Did Islam do that, nope.
Iraq, amongst the most liberal Muslim nations and amongst the richest. Bloody war with Iran at the behest of the US. US permission to invade Kuwait and then betrayal. Sanctions kill the economy and more than a million Iraqis from a population of 17 million. Awaits another war even though it says that it does not have nuclear weapons. North Korea says it does and US wants to deal with it diplomatically!!! Did Islam do that, nope.
Kuwait, till a few years ago, it had the highest per capita income in the world. Iraq attacks at the behest of the US and now there is a permanent presence of the US leading to violence as I write. Did Islam do that, nope.
Brunei, not many can find it on a map, but the Sultan was the richest man in the world for 6 consecutive years before being overtaken by Bill Gates.
Palestine, If I have to write something about palestine to explain the position of the Muslims over there, to Muslims elsewhere, then all Muslims deserve to be whacked. Did Islam do that, nope.
Iran, also amongst the rich and the properous. Sanctions drive the economy into the wall. Because of Islam??? Yes, cause the west does not like a religious authority gaining power in the middle east. Oil becomes a problem.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
If you find pointing fingers of blame inherently enjoyable then great, have fun. Personally, I think assigning blame is pretty much useless. Yes, Islam had a golden period of scientific growth back when Europe was in the dark ages, India and China probably had a golden period even before that. The problem is that not only is the Islamic world not advancing, it is actually regressing, probably in the hope that maybe they can regress to that golden stage. Unfortunately, some people need to get into their mind that that period is over. Its like yesterday's meal. You can fondly reminisce over it as much as you want but its not going to fill your stomach today. To fill your stomach today you need to work for another meal. You need to progress to overtake others, not regress. You need to acquire power, like US did, like Japan did, like the other powerful countries of the world did. No one will come and drop power into your lap. You can pray as much as you want but its not going to happen.
-N
-N
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Maybe what we need to do is open a few strip bars in all the Muslim countries and then they will grow.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
And yeah, I forgot to mention, most of the Muslim countries in the middle east, have no taxes.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Anajmi,
Theocracies interfere with the smooth running of modern countries. There, the countries are weaker. Weaker countries can be easily screwed around with. Therefore, do not be weak or the strong will use you as a testing ground for ammunition.
-N
Theocracies interfere with the smooth running of modern countries. There, the countries are weaker. Weaker countries can be easily screwed around with. Therefore, do not be weak or the strong will use you as a testing ground for ammunition.
-N
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Anajmi,
You consider yourself to be a good Muslim, right?
sh
You consider yourself to be a good Muslim, right?
sh
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
> Theocracies interfere with the smooth running of modern countries.
In an interview with Jim Lehrer, when asked whether he intended to turn Pakistan into a theocracy, Pervez Musharraf said there is no room for a theocracy in a religious state.
In an interview with Jim Lehrer, when asked whether he intended to turn Pakistan into a theocracy, Pervez Musharraf said there is no room for a theocracy in a religious state.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
nausicaa,
Many superpowers have come and gone, the egyptians who took advantage of the jews, gone, the jews are still there, the romans, gone, the british empire on which the sun never set is now a whore of america, germany - the 1000 year reich lasted for 11 years.
Well, for you this world is the be all and end all of everything, for muslims that is not the case. Muslims are not looking to build nuclear weapons to dominate the world. They don't have to, God has promised them dominance with mere faith in him. You didn't understand and that is why you are no longer a muslim.
And by the way, you justify the injustice of the strong because those being persecuted are weak. Well, what can I say. Jesus Christ said "The meek shall inherit the earth"
Brother Barwani,
I consider myself to be on ok muslim. I have my drawbacks, and I am trying to overcome them.
Many superpowers have come and gone, the egyptians who took advantage of the jews, gone, the jews are still there, the romans, gone, the british empire on which the sun never set is now a whore of america, germany - the 1000 year reich lasted for 11 years.
Well, for you this world is the be all and end all of everything, for muslims that is not the case. Muslims are not looking to build nuclear weapons to dominate the world. They don't have to, God has promised them dominance with mere faith in him. You didn't understand and that is why you are no longer a muslim.
And by the way, you justify the injustice of the strong because those being persecuted are weak. Well, what can I say. Jesus Christ said "The meek shall inherit the earth"
Brother Barwani,
I consider myself to be on ok muslim. I have my drawbacks, and I am trying to overcome them.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
I am not justifying the injustice. I am just saying if you are weak the world will not respect you or your sovereignty or your people. People respect strength. There is an Arabic saying, if I am not mistaken, which means, "God is always with the bigger army".
As far as the meek shall inherit the earth, its just a sentence. Even a cursory look around shows that that is not true.
-N
As far as the meek shall inherit the earth, its just a sentence. Even a cursory look around shows that that is not true.
-N
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
nausicaa,
the arabic saying you pointed out was probably in the pre-islamic days. Remeber in the battle of badr the army of the prophet was 1/3rd the size of the army of the enemies. God promised them victory and they won.
When Jesus Christ said that the meek shall inherit the earth, he didn't say it was going to happen in the 21st century!!
the arabic saying you pointed out was probably in the pre-islamic days. Remeber in the battle of badr the army of the prophet was 1/3rd the size of the army of the enemies. God promised them victory and they won.
When Jesus Christ said that the meek shall inherit the earth, he didn't say it was going to happen in the 21st century!!
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Muslims are not looking to build nuclear weapons to dominate the world.
This is news to me. Every major Islamic nation is in some way trying to get hold of some nuclear weapon. And Pakistan even has a few. One of the big fears of western governments is that Islamic terrorists might get hold of a workable nuclear bomb. Unless your sentence is a sourgrapes kind of thing, we don't have a nuclear bomb and can't get one so we might as well pretend we don't want one.
They don't have to, God has promised them dominance with mere faith in him.
Apparently the Jewish God promised that to the Jews too. And he seems to be better at delivering his promises. The Christian God says the same too and he isn't half bad either. The Japanese believed the same too, until US came along and dropped a couple of city busters and the Japanese realised their God had duped them.
-N
This is news to me. Every major Islamic nation is in some way trying to get hold of some nuclear weapon. And Pakistan even has a few. One of the big fears of western governments is that Islamic terrorists might get hold of a workable nuclear bomb. Unless your sentence is a sourgrapes kind of thing, we don't have a nuclear bomb and can't get one so we might as well pretend we don't want one.
They don't have to, God has promised them dominance with mere faith in him.
Apparently the Jewish God promised that to the Jews too. And he seems to be better at delivering his promises. The Christian God says the same too and he isn't half bad either. The Japanese believed the same too, until US came along and dropped a couple of city busters and the Japanese realised their God had duped them.
-N
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
nausicaa,
If you look at my statement properly you may understand what I am trying to say. I said, Muslim nations are not looking to build nuclear weapons to dominate the world. I didn't say Muslim nations are not looking to build nuclear weapons.
Well, the irony is that the jewish God and the christian God are the same as the Islamic God.
God is delivering his promise to the jews and the christians, he will, to the muslims too!!
As far as the japanese are concerned I do not know, they probably got what they deserved.
If you look at my statement properly you may understand what I am trying to say. I said, Muslim nations are not looking to build nuclear weapons to dominate the world. I didn't say Muslim nations are not looking to build nuclear weapons.
Well, the irony is that the jewish God and the christian God are the same as the Islamic God.
God is delivering his promise to the jews and the christians, he will, to the muslims too!!
As far as the japanese are concerned I do not know, they probably got what they deserved.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Thank you for sharing that you think you’re an “ok Muslim.” To tell you the truth, I’m not even sure I can call myself a “Muslim” if it means the same thing as what most Muslims (or non-Muslims for that matter) think a “Muslim” is, even though I agree with the fundamental moral claims of the religion.
I think where you and most other Muslims go wrong is in your unabashed defense not of Islam, but rather of Muslim actions (and those of Muslim states). Your freedom to practice your religion is upheld even if the state or your peers do not require you to have faith. No one is dragging you by the ear and making you watch naked women dance, or telling you that you can not pray. The only thing I am suggesting is that we should not go to the other extreme and say that people must, by the order of God, do this or that. Because if you go too far on one side, you are bound to pop up on the other.
After re-reading the posts, I think what Nausicaa has said represents a truer concept of the fundamental basis of Islam than what you have been saying. One thing about the Quran is that it does not demand unreasoned belief, it invites us to look around, make observations, reflect, and then, choose our paths. And that is what initially separated Islam from the medieval Christianity (and Christian states) that the Arabians were to encounter, sadly the state of Islam today is not unlike the medieval Christianity that it helped to pull out of the dark ages, it has become blinded by unreasoned faith.
Please think about this for some time, because I’ve tried to think about your comments honestly.
sh
I think where you and most other Muslims go wrong is in your unabashed defense not of Islam, but rather of Muslim actions (and those of Muslim states). Your freedom to practice your religion is upheld even if the state or your peers do not require you to have faith. No one is dragging you by the ear and making you watch naked women dance, or telling you that you can not pray. The only thing I am suggesting is that we should not go to the other extreme and say that people must, by the order of God, do this or that. Because if you go too far on one side, you are bound to pop up on the other.
After re-reading the posts, I think what Nausicaa has said represents a truer concept of the fundamental basis of Islam than what you have been saying. One thing about the Quran is that it does not demand unreasoned belief, it invites us to look around, make observations, reflect, and then, choose our paths. And that is what initially separated Islam from the medieval Christianity (and Christian states) that the Arabians were to encounter, sadly the state of Islam today is not unlike the medieval Christianity that it helped to pull out of the dark ages, it has become blinded by unreasoned faith.
Please think about this for some time, because I’ve tried to think about your comments honestly.
sh
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
"Islam does not say people should be killed because they are disbelievers. That ayah has been taken out of context".
This appears to be the statement of choice in recent times when attempting to defend Islam's relationship to terrorism. Followed by "Islam is a religion of peace", usually followed by "so there is no point in discussing it again and again". I searched through Anajmi's posts, and did not find any explanation, "again and again". Countries take advantage of inept, corrupt, and autocratic leaderships, and as of late they happen to be predominantly Islamic. Iran shed the Western puppet, but they picked the Ayatollah, and they are still looking for a democracy, but atleast they are trying. The rest are being manipulated by their own governments to vent at the West by their leaders who are apparently victimized or taken advatage of (!)
You have to be strong to fight back, and the Islamic nations are weak and easily taken advantage of, just as they took advantage of the weak during their glory days.
Islam has failed miserably as an ideology, and it is now time to wage a Jihad for secular democracies.
Knowledge is power.....Islam is lacking.
This appears to be the statement of choice in recent times when attempting to defend Islam's relationship to terrorism. Followed by "Islam is a religion of peace", usually followed by "so there is no point in discussing it again and again". I searched through Anajmi's posts, and did not find any explanation, "again and again". Countries take advantage of inept, corrupt, and autocratic leaderships, and as of late they happen to be predominantly Islamic. Iran shed the Western puppet, but they picked the Ayatollah, and they are still looking for a democracy, but atleast they are trying. The rest are being manipulated by their own governments to vent at the West by their leaders who are apparently victimized or taken advatage of (!)
You have to be strong to fight back, and the Islamic nations are weak and easily taken advantage of, just as they took advantage of the weak during their glory days.
Islam has failed miserably as an ideology, and it is now time to wage a Jihad for secular democracies.
Knowledge is power.....Islam is lacking.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Brother barwani,
Please tell me who it was that forced you to fast or to pray 5 times a day?
Nobody in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan forced anybody to fast or pray or give zakat. If you know of any instance where this happened, let me know.
As far as women and modesty go, it affects the society as a whole so checks and balances have to be in place. In the house, if a woman roams around naked in front of her husband, then there is nothing wrong with it. I agree that sometimes muslims go too far in imposing the restrictions, but as I have been saying time and again, it has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with muslims.
Also please let me know where I have shown ""your unabashed defense not of Islam, but rather of Muslim actions (and those of Muslim states)"". If I have done that then I am wrong .
There you go, I couildn't be more honest about my comments even if I wanted to be.
Please tell me who it was that forced you to fast or to pray 5 times a day?
Nobody in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan forced anybody to fast or pray or give zakat. If you know of any instance where this happened, let me know.
As far as women and modesty go, it affects the society as a whole so checks and balances have to be in place. In the house, if a woman roams around naked in front of her husband, then there is nothing wrong with it. I agree that sometimes muslims go too far in imposing the restrictions, but as I have been saying time and again, it has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with muslims.
Also please let me know where I have shown ""your unabashed defense not of Islam, but rather of Muslim actions (and those of Muslim states)"". If I have done that then I am wrong .
There you go, I couildn't be more honest about my comments even if I wanted to be.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Believer,
I thought I would comment, but then what is the point. Reading your statements makes me think that it will be a complete waste of your and my time.
I thought I would comment, but then what is the point. Reading your statements makes me think that it will be a complete waste of your and my time.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Br. Anajmi
I refer you to your message posted 11-20-2002 11:22 PM, which is the 10th post on this topic. You continually refer to certain restrictions placed on Muslims and how you feel that these restrictions do not affect the growth of Muslim. But the truth of the matter is that making such restrictions and requirements the law of the land (or the only things that are morally appropriate in all circumstances) does (and has) in fact negatively affect the growth of Muslim countries and communities. Consequently, all the things you’ve mentioned in that post must be left to an individual’s own discretion because if they are not, they will only do harm.
<I>Please tell me who it was that forced you to fast or to pray 5 times a day?</I>
I got lucky, my parents were open-minded and they didn’t force religion on me, therefore I was able to appreciate it much more. But many of my cousin’s weren’t that lucky. I remember many times during Ramadan or other times, where their parents beat them because they didn’t pray. One of my aunts beat both of her kids because they (a 13 yr. old and a 15 yr. old) were watching a PG-13 (Junior, with Arnold Schwartznager) movie that she thought was un-Islamic.
<I>Nobody in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan forced anybody to fast or pray or give zakat. If you know of any instance where this happened, let me know.</I>
From what I can remember, the Taliban did prevent women from attending school, made them stay at home, and took away even hospital visitation. Saudi Arabia has been criticized so often and by so many people for their human rights abuses against women (in the name of Islam) that trying to defend it would be futile.
See:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/693729.stm
BBC is a reputable news source, and is generally much less biased than American media. And Amnesty International criticizes governments in an unbiased manner, so please don’t say that they their criticism of SA is prejudiced.
<I>As far as women and modesty go, it affects the society as a whole so checks and balances have to be in place. In the house, if a woman roams around naked in front of her husband, then there is nothing wrong with it. I agree that sometimes muslims go too far in imposing the restrictions, but as I have been saying time and again, it has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with muslims.</I>
Again, as nausicaa said before, we aren’t arguing about women roaming around naked!
“As I have been saying time and again…”
I’m not sure you’ve been saying anything like that, but I’ll take your word for it.
sh
I refer you to your message posted 11-20-2002 11:22 PM, which is the 10th post on this topic. You continually refer to certain restrictions placed on Muslims and how you feel that these restrictions do not affect the growth of Muslim. But the truth of the matter is that making such restrictions and requirements the law of the land (or the only things that are morally appropriate in all circumstances) does (and has) in fact negatively affect the growth of Muslim countries and communities. Consequently, all the things you’ve mentioned in that post must be left to an individual’s own discretion because if they are not, they will only do harm.
<I>Please tell me who it was that forced you to fast or to pray 5 times a day?</I>
I got lucky, my parents were open-minded and they didn’t force religion on me, therefore I was able to appreciate it much more. But many of my cousin’s weren’t that lucky. I remember many times during Ramadan or other times, where their parents beat them because they didn’t pray. One of my aunts beat both of her kids because they (a 13 yr. old and a 15 yr. old) were watching a PG-13 (Junior, with Arnold Schwartznager) movie that she thought was un-Islamic.
<I>Nobody in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan forced anybody to fast or pray or give zakat. If you know of any instance where this happened, let me know.</I>
From what I can remember, the Taliban did prevent women from attending school, made them stay at home, and took away even hospital visitation. Saudi Arabia has been criticized so often and by so many people for their human rights abuses against women (in the name of Islam) that trying to defend it would be futile.
See:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/693729.stm
BBC is a reputable news source, and is generally much less biased than American media. And Amnesty International criticizes governments in an unbiased manner, so please don’t say that they their criticism of SA is prejudiced.
<I>As far as women and modesty go, it affects the society as a whole so checks and balances have to be in place. In the house, if a woman roams around naked in front of her husband, then there is nothing wrong with it. I agree that sometimes muslims go too far in imposing the restrictions, but as I have been saying time and again, it has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with muslims.</I>
Again, as nausicaa said before, we aren’t arguing about women roaming around naked!
“As I have been saying time and again…”
I’m not sure you’ve been saying anything like that, but I’ll take your word for it.
sh
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Muslim First
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Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
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Br. Barwani
Your aunt must be commanded for not allowing PG-13 movie to be screened in her house. Remember she is the Queen of her household and she rules.
13 and 15 year old are still under her command and within reason she can set the limits.
When my 25 yers old medico student is home I ask politely if he would like to pray with me. If he says yes I amd happy. I f he says no, I don't feel like it then I pray to Allah for guidance for him and pray by myself.
Let us acknowledge that those in authority has power to set limits and if majority agrees then minority has no choice. You can stay home and not go to Masjid in SA, You have no business of loitering in public.
I think we in America has best of both words. At our Islamic (Non secterian) Center everybody is welcome. Nobody checks your ID. You are free to dress as you like (Modestly). Wemen can come without head cover (Only requred during prayers). We have ppl. from 20 countries and from all sects of Islam ( Ihave not seen Aga Khani). We have Jews and Christians come to our center regularly. Bernard Cardinal Law of Boston was there this sunday breaking bread with us. ( read story at http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/329/m ... ims+.shtml )
In short what I am saying is that we need to come to a common understanig among us and then with People of the Book.
I am sorry you are soured on Idlam so much. Open your heart and start by firming your own personal relation with Allah. Inshah Allah other things will follow.
Wasalaam
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Br. Barwani
Your aunt must be commanded for not allowing PG-13 movie to be screened in her house. Remember she is the Queen of her household and she rules.
13 and 15 year old are still under her command and within reason she can set the limits.
When my 25 yers old medico student is home I ask politely if he would like to pray with me. If he says yes I amd happy. I f he says no, I don't feel like it then I pray to Allah for guidance for him and pray by myself.
Let us acknowledge that those in authority has power to set limits and if majority agrees then minority has no choice. You can stay home and not go to Masjid in SA, You have no business of loitering in public.
I think we in America has best of both words. At our Islamic (Non secterian) Center everybody is welcome. Nobody checks your ID. You are free to dress as you like (Modestly). Wemen can come without head cover (Only requred during prayers). We have ppl. from 20 countries and from all sects of Islam ( Ihave not seen Aga Khani). We have Jews and Christians come to our center regularly. Bernard Cardinal Law of Boston was there this sunday breaking bread with us. ( read story at http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/329/m ... ims+.shtml )
In short what I am saying is that we need to come to a common understanig among us and then with People of the Book.
I am sorry you are soured on Idlam so much. Open your heart and start by firming your own personal relation with Allah. Inshah Allah other things will follow.
Wasalaam
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Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Let us acknowledge that those in authority has power to set limits and if majority agrees then minority has no choice.
This is tyranny of the majority. This is just saying that if 51% of the people agree to do away with the rest of the 49%, the 49% should acquiesce to that decision. From my knowledge of Islam even Quran gives better rights to minorities than that.
-N
This is tyranny of the majority. This is just saying that if 51% of the people agree to do away with the rest of the 49%, the 49% should acquiesce to that decision. From my knowledge of Islam even Quran gives better rights to minorities than that.
-N
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Furthermore it would only make sense if the minority had input in the process and the leader was democratically elected.
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MOHD HUSSAIN
- Posts: 443
- Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Br Muslim 1st; Yes it was a a heart warming story to read about the Cardinal Law visiting your Islamic Center in Boston- Hope Our Syedna allowed similar practice & did some open dialogues with the Hindu priests in India off & On & may be we would have faced less serious calamity when the riots did break out!What I am pointig out is the narrow mindedness of most muslims & their leaders in particular!
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Br. Muslim First,
<I>Your aunt must be commanded for not allowing PG-13 movie to be screened in her house. Remember she is the Queen of her household and she rules.</I>
I have to disagree with you on two points. First point being that hitting children is wrong under any circumstances, it makes children hate their parents and lose respect for them. I’ve seen this first hand, especially with those cousins I’ve mentioned. Second point: we must remember that (to use Rumi’s words) the microcosm is the macrocosm. What you see in the home, where parents are being totally intolerant and abusive of their children, comes through in society as a whole, where governments become intolerant towards their citizens. And individuals become intolerant of others, so they just go and attack on as a way to settle differences. (hmm… 9/11 sound familiar?) You failed to make any point with that last statement.
<I>Let us acknowledge that those in authority has power to set limits and if majority agrees then minority has no choice. You can stay home and not go to Masjid in SA, You have no business of loitering in public.</I>
I’m surprised that you even said that. Being a Muslim, and living in the USA you enjoy a tremendous amount of rights in spite of your minority opinions. Shouldn’t others around the world enjoy the same rights as you do?
I suggest reading “A Theory of Justice” by John Rawls (Who sadly died two days ago. A great philosopher who has changed political philosophy in a tremendous way. http://www.harvard.edu )
As nausicaa said, the Quran gives better rights to minorities than that.
<I>In short what I am saying is that we need to come to a common understanig among us and then with People of the Book.</I>
I agree, we do need more understanding. But in order to do that you have to meet people half way, and we aren’t doing that.
<I>I am sorry you are soured on Idlam so much. Open your heart and start by firming your own personal relation with Allah. Inshah Allah other things will follow.</I>
I have not “soured” on Islam, I merely feel that we need to be more self-critical as a community. But thank you for the gesture.
sh
<I>Your aunt must be commanded for not allowing PG-13 movie to be screened in her house. Remember she is the Queen of her household and she rules.</I>
I have to disagree with you on two points. First point being that hitting children is wrong under any circumstances, it makes children hate their parents and lose respect for them. I’ve seen this first hand, especially with those cousins I’ve mentioned. Second point: we must remember that (to use Rumi’s words) the microcosm is the macrocosm. What you see in the home, where parents are being totally intolerant and abusive of their children, comes through in society as a whole, where governments become intolerant towards their citizens. And individuals become intolerant of others, so they just go and attack on as a way to settle differences. (hmm… 9/11 sound familiar?) You failed to make any point with that last statement.
<I>Let us acknowledge that those in authority has power to set limits and if majority agrees then minority has no choice. You can stay home and not go to Masjid in SA, You have no business of loitering in public.</I>
I’m surprised that you even said that. Being a Muslim, and living in the USA you enjoy a tremendous amount of rights in spite of your minority opinions. Shouldn’t others around the world enjoy the same rights as you do?
I suggest reading “A Theory of Justice” by John Rawls (Who sadly died two days ago. A great philosopher who has changed political philosophy in a tremendous way. http://www.harvard.edu )
As nausicaa said, the Quran gives better rights to minorities than that.
<I>In short what I am saying is that we need to come to a common understanig among us and then with People of the Book.</I>
I agree, we do need more understanding. But in order to do that you have to meet people half way, and we aren’t doing that.
<I>I am sorry you are soured on Idlam so much. Open your heart and start by firming your own personal relation with Allah. Inshah Allah other things will follow.</I>
I have not “soured” on Islam, I merely feel that we need to be more self-critical as a community. But thank you for the gesture.
sh
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Br. Muslim First,
I just wanted to share this with you, to show you how others use the same flawed logic as you to justify intolerance, and how it applies to the macrocosm.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/afr ... ory=356240
sh
BTW: Here's the link from Harvard that I meant to post in the last reply.
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/RAWTHR.html
BTW: Here's the link from Harvard that I meant to post in the last reply.
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/RAWTHR.html
I just wanted to share this with you, to show you how others use the same flawed logic as you to justify intolerance, and how it applies to the macrocosm.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/afr ... ory=356240
sh
BTW: Here's the link from Harvard that I meant to post in the last reply.
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/RAWTHR.html
BTW: Here's the link from Harvard that I meant to post in the last reply.
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/RAWTHR.html
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Br. Muslim First,
I just wanted to share this with you, to show you how others use the same flawed logic as you to justify intolerance, and how it applies to the macrocosm.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/afr ... ory=356240
sh
BTW: Here's the link from Harvard that I meant to post in the last reply.
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/RAWTHR.html
I just wanted to share this with you, to show you how others use the same flawed logic as you to justify intolerance, and how it applies to the macrocosm.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/afr ... ory=356240
sh
BTW: Here's the link from Harvard that I meant to post in the last reply.
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/RAWTHR.html
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Let us acknowledge that those in authority has power to set limits and if majority agrees then minority has no choice.
I am frankly appalled that you would make such a statement. What if the majority in MA decided that your Islamic Center needs to go and an officer arrested you because You have no business of loitering in public ?
We have a concept of basic human rights that no majority or minority can take away. Those are the rights that you are currently enjoying as you write this. At the same time young girls die in a burning building in SA because the majority felt it was innapropriate for them to come out without proper attire. I hope you understand the gravity of your statement.
Your Islamic Center needs to be commended for their efforts to bring people together, we certanly need more of that.
I am hoping you invite other leaders besides Cardinal Law who in my opinion needs to apologize and resign for knowingly promoting and transferring child molestors.
I am frankly appalled that you would make such a statement. What if the majority in MA decided that your Islamic Center needs to go and an officer arrested you because You have no business of loitering in public ?
We have a concept of basic human rights that no majority or minority can take away. Those are the rights that you are currently enjoying as you write this. At the same time young girls die in a burning building in SA because the majority felt it was innapropriate for them to come out without proper attire. I hope you understand the gravity of your statement.
Your Islamic Center needs to be commended for their efforts to bring people together, we certanly need more of that.
I am hoping you invite other leaders besides Cardinal Law who in my opinion needs to apologize and resign for knowingly promoting and transferring child molestors.