good deeds

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My question, why do we at all have to give all this money under some pretext or another to the local amil or syedna.<br>The whole purpose of zakat is to spend 2.25% of ones income in helping the not so fortunate. Can we not directly give this money to an orphanage, or the needy. Does this money have to be given to the dai? If the objective of zakat is to help the poor and needy, there are many avenues that we are all aware of for disbursement of zakat. <br>I would like to pose this question to Husayn; is there any rule in dawate hadiyah that says that zakat money has to be mandatorily given to the dai?<br>In the case of sabil collected by different jamats; I ask mumineen to be very cautious. The pupose of sabil is to spend the money on the well being of the community,but we all know how the chicago jamat has spent the money: enjoying vacation trips to London,the excuse being to invite the dai for the opening ceremony of the masjid in chicago. In some cases the money collected locally is spent by the committee members on their ownselves.<br>Some fanatics say interest is haram and if your house is in mortgage you cannot do majlis or daris. I ask the question what about the interest that the dawat e hadiyah bank accounts are bearing in the u.s. and what about all the interest that is earned by some of the jamat members in their high interest bearing accounts. I guess it must be o.k. for the fanatic jamat members to take interest on their money.

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Assalamu alaykum<p>Hadiths of Imam Jafar Sadiq say:<p>Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad ibn ?Amir through his chain of narrators has narrated in a marfu? manner the following.<p>"Abu ?Abd Allah (AS) has said, ?Whoever would think that the Imam is needy to what people own he would become an unbeliever. It is the people who need acceptance from the Imam . Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Gracious, has said, "Collect religious tax (zakat) from them to purify and cleanse them and pray for them . . ." (9:103)<p>Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn Faddal from ibn Bukayr who has said the following<p>"I heard abu ?Abd Allah (AS) say, ?I procure payment of one dirham from a person of you when I am the wealthiest of the people of the city of al-Madina. I accept such payments for no other reason but to purify you."<p>In Najhul Balagha, Amir ul?Muminin Ali ibn Abi Talib writes:<p>"I order you to fear Allah in all those affairs and on all those occasions where there is none to witness your actions and deeds or to guide your activities. I order you not to pretend fear of Allah and assume false piety and to go against His Orders secretly. One whose deeds coincide with his words and who is as honest in his secret activities as in open deeds, is the person who has faithfully discharged the duty laid down upon him by the Lord, his honesty handed over the things entrusted to him and has sincerely obeyed Allah only to achieve His Favours and Blessings.<p>I order you not to meet Muslims as a tyrant or an oppressor, not to ill-treat them and not to calumniate them because they are your brothers in religion and they will help you to collect taxes and to find means and ways to help the poor.<p>Certainly there is a share for you in Zakat but remember that the poor, the destitute and the have-nots also have claim over it.<p>Verily, I have paid you your share and now you should pay them their shares otherwise there will be many who will complain and protest against you on the Day of Judgement (they will be your enemies on that day). Woe be to the person against whom the poor, the destitute, the beggars and those who have been deprived of their rights of receiving Zakat complain before Allah.<p>Be it known to you that the person who misappropriates Zakat funds, who will fill his stomach with such amounts, and who harms his religion and injures his conscience with such deeds will be punished and disgraced in this world as well as the next. The worst form of dishonesty is the breach of trust of the public funds (Zakat) and the most despicable example of maladministration is that the Imam should tolerate such forms of dishonesty."<p>As the representative of the Imam as?Satr, the Dai (currently Syedna Muhammad Burhanudin tus) has all rights to that which the Imam az?Zaman has in his ghaybat. <p>Was salam

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Husayn, I have enjoyed reading your posts and admire you for having the point of view that you expound. <p>Also ignore Abde because he does not know that the internet has made this whole world global and the issue of "raza" has no relevance when it comes to intellectual discourse. He is still talking about some bookseller in Bombay who does it by Raza. It will not be long when every available kitab will be available on the Internet. I was recently told by an Ismaili friend that Prof. Zahid Ali who is a bohri and has done a lot of research in bohorism donated some original manuscripts on bohoras which belonge dto his family to the Institute of Ismaili Studies located in Uk and started by the Aga Khan rather than the Kothar because he knew that if he donated them to the Kothar they would not be made available to the public. So abde wake up and smell teh coffee. Information has become a universal commodity and is not the property of any one person including the Dai.<p>The question of zakat and your response has compelled me to enter this discussion. I do note that all your posts are based on the following premise: <p>"Because the Dai is the representative of the Imam he should not be questioned and he has a licence to do what he desires. Let Allah deal with him in the hereafter if he is wrong". I respect that but it is unfair in any argument because it provides you a basis to rationalise your mode of operation and you can escape any discussion on the basis of this premise.<p>What Mumin wants to know is why he cannot donate the zakat funds directly to a charity of his choosing rather than giving to the Dai and not know what it is being used for.<p>You say that giving to the Dai would "purify him" as mentioned in your references and therefore he would be able to face Allah proudly for following his Commnad. You refer to teh following in support:<p>- "...collect taxes to purify them"<br>- "...but to purify you"<p>So the purpose of zakat is for your purification. Understood.<p>Then you say:<p>- " .. those deprived of these funds can complain to Allah"<br>- "...those who misuse the funds will be punished."<p>So those who do not receive htese funds can complain to Allah and those who misuse these funds will be punished.<br>and then<br>".. the most despicable is an Imam should tolerate such form of dishonesty"<p>The ultimate sin (if I may call is such)is if an Imam is aware and tolerates abuse of zakat funds he too shall be dealt with by Allah.<p>Then your usual zinger: The Dai is the representative of the Imam so it is all fine and if there is any punishment to be meted out it will be done on the day of judgement when the poor who did not receive the funds would complain to Allah and the dai will be punished if he had knowledge of abuse and allowed it to carry on. Basically we all have to wait to die to find out if we were right or wrong. It then boils down to "heads" or "tails" I hope I call the right side or I will be in big trouble.<p>Now I guess you are comfortable with the fact that the Dai always does something about abuse when it is there and if he does not do so he will be dealt with in the herafter. And I suppose this comes from your faith. Now this may sit well with you but not with a lot of bohoras who are forced to pay their zakat and do not know what use it is being put to. It is a legitimat question and this is becasue we do not know how this money is being used and we all work damn hard for the money we make and give up.<p>Why the big secret over the use of zakat funds is what I do not understand. Would it not be proud to tell the whole world how the bohora community is helping the poor of the world. What is the secret over its use for. Why not give an accounting to tell us how much was collected and what it was used for. There are no hospitals we see or schools which we can proudly point to and say to our brothers in Islam that "Here is a school built for the poor by our Moula". It bothers me and a lot of us who proudly call ourselves bohoras. <br>In you previous posts you have said that the dai is using the monies for the mainteneace of musafirkahanas and various places of pilgrimage. Now let me ask you what you ask others: "Do you have any proof of these expenditures?". Obviously not. Where would you get such proof. There are no such records kept and shared with the followers. It is my understanding that everytime you go fo ziarat and use the facilities you have to pay for the use. It is not free. SO what is happenning to these monies collected.<p>WE are a frustrated lot because we are being asked to give more and more each year. We do not know where it goes and who uses it. If it is for the poor why not let the local jamaats choose projects locally to provide charity to. Why does the money have to go somewhere. God knows where. If we follow your line of reasoning we all have to die to find out. Some of us want answers during our lifetime not when we die and that is why we raise these questions.

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Oserver you have very good point which was well put.<br>It is the fear of most Bohoras that where does the money go??, to the Imam as intended or in someone pocket as the saying goes <br>JENA HATH MA ENA MOO MA<br>in whose hand then in his mouth<br>All bohora have this dilema ever present in their minds<br>More so when they are rudely forced to hand over the money<br>The most disturbing thing is the un accountiblity and they being unable to see the benifits it brings to the society as a whole<br>All the rest of free pecks like jamaat ,mosque building ,Ziarat ,Musaffrkhana are being paid for from the donations and due paid for.<p>The Amils are paid by the Individual jammats<br>and of-course there is this this Salaam they are entitled to for their up keep and to keep them shut up<br>The dai has to come out and explain the basic fears of the Mumeenins<br>If he is to guide them to the Imam with no unsolved or answered questions

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Assalamu alaykum Dear Observer,<p>there are few problems with your analogies/comparison with reference to the hadiths.<p>You wrote:<br>"...Because the Dai is the representative of the Imam he should not be questioned and he has a licence to do what he desires. Let Allah deal with him in the hereafter if he is wrong". I respect that but it is unfair in any argument because it provides you a basis to rationalise your mode of operation and you can escape any discussion on the basis of this premise."<p>This is somewhat incorrect. The Dai is, by his own words, the ghulam of the Imam as'Satr and does what he desires (as we all are expected to). The Imam az'Zaman is the representative and guidance of Allah on this. This has nothing to do with fair and unfair according to your thoughts and opinions. Allah ta'Ala is just in every according to His own laws and the Imam is the interpretor of these laws. The Dai follows these commands and is in his place while in ghaybat (hiding). It's not an escape, but the rules to follow. What is there to discuss? <p>You wrote:<br>"...Now this may sit well with you but not with a lot of bohoras who are forced to pay their zakat and do not know what use it is being put to. It is a legitimat question and this is becasue we do not know how this money is being used and we all work damn hard for the money we make and give up."<p>Your first statement is badly worded because you are required by Allah, be it even for 1 rupee, to pay zakat on your property/wealth. Your second statement is going against the belief of the authority of the Imam. Why believe in the Imamate if your questioning his honesty and niyyat? You want to know something but at the same time your questioning the integrity of the Imam. You may say how does this apply to the Dai...because he is the Imam's representative and working for the Imam in his place. The Imam is still here, though you don't know where is he or what he looks like.<p>In the US, I pay 34% of my hard earned money to the goverment. I haven't the slighted idea where or who it goes to. It's taken out before I even get my pay check. It would take me months to find out if I actually asked. But there is a difference between a government and Imamate. The government is elected by the people, the Imam is not and nor is his Dai. I don't argue (I may complain) about paying my taxes to the goverment because I helped put those people in their positions. I can't complain to the Imam for zakat or wajibat, because I would be complaining to Allah for putting the obligation of wajibaat on us and requiring the Imam to collect it. The duty of distrubution is placed on the Imam and what he does is not for me to question. Who knows better use for wajibaat, the Imam or any of us? Part of the wajibaat itself is for the Imam (I explained before) and for others of religious offices. It can be used for paying for students schooling at jamia, helping the costs for musafir khannas, etc.<p>You wrote:<br>"In you previous posts you have said that the dai is using the monies for the mainteneace of musafirkahanas and various places of pilgrimage. Now let me ask you what you ask others: "Do you have any proof of these expenditures?". Obviously not. Where would you get such proof. There are no such records kept and shared with the followers. It is my understanding that everytime you go fo ziarat and use the facilities you have to pay for the use. It is not free. SO what is happenning to these monies collected."<p>I just went to Yemen for ziyarat for a week. My stay (including food, lodging, transportation, and guidance/sabaqs by alims) costs me $350 per person for the entire 7 days. The average rental of a vehicle in San'a costs about $40-80 per day (this doesn't include a driver). Think about what you paid for your last vacation and then compare. The costs are still there...who's paying for them? Why is this so inexpensive? Someone else is footing the bill for the rest of the amount...but with what?<p>Look at the costs of jamia. Over half of the students are subsidiced and the rest are at minimal cost or free...by whom and with what is this paid? It cost at least $20-50,000 for a student to attend an average public university (which is already subsidized).<p>Was salam<br>

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My question is still not answered.<br>If good has to be don3e with zakat money,then why should not one do it himself.Atleast then there are no doubts in his mind. And does not the quran state that do not think that your burden is over if you give your zakat money to a moalim or drop it in a drop box (galla)at some shrine. No, you will have to make an effort and search for the deserving and then even the deserving will be so ashamed that they will not ask for it, but you will have to request them and if this allah fearing person accepts your zakat then you would have recieved your sawab. Zakat money is just not to be handed out to any amil or mulla,but you have to make an effort to search for the deserving candidate and consider it an honour if the deserving person accepts your charity. Things are just the other way around. zakat and other monies are demanded every year ,other wise all they seem to know is bycot.People cannot be threatened by this bycot. And i have personally witnessed that in most cases the bhaisaheb calls each mumin one at a time,and then for the next twenty minutes or so bargaining takes place on how much zakat figure is acceptable. It does not at all seem like zakat but a typical bohri business negotiation. <br>Also,since you quote Nahjul Balagha is it not true " Aqeel, moula Ali's elder brother was financially broke and asked moula Ali to give him an extra share from the baitul maal,but moula Ali replied not a penny more and not a day earlier. I cannot do this dishonesty."<br>I do not even care how much is collected,may the dai collect many more,but what is he doing with it. Any time a new masjid or markaz is built, the mumineen of that community are under heavy pressure. Not only to give wajebat but now,buy units for construction purposes. Apparently the kothar is oblivious of the poor bohri community of India and Pakistan. If one can earn the money then one can surely spend his hard earned money in Allah's way. The sawab of his deeds is with Allah and none other. You have still not convinced me. I still say,spend your charitable contribution where you see it working,instead of tossing a coin.<br>Jamia is another story in itself. In one case money was asked from all the students in surat jamia to give dawat to the Dai. Well, time went by ,the students graduated and there was no ziafat. No one knows where all the money collected,dissapeared.<br>Zakat money is not being spent towards the construction or upkeep of any masjid or muafirkhana. The community of Chicago is in tears seeing their one million dollar masjid project escalate to ten million. When will zakat money be used to house the poor,to build hospitals,orphanages, and good schools for the new generation of bohris so they can stand in the world and make a respectable living, instead of graduating from jamia,with an education where they can only be employed by the kothar. And have to rush to every darees and majlis for a handout in the form of a salam so they can make ends meet. I was in tears to see the poor condition of some of these mullas. The community is again in turmoil. Any one holding a darees,now has to do salam to the main amil and then a bunch of all these newly graduated mullas. Why all this burden on the community to support all these mullas being churned out from the jamias? I wonder at the parents who make these life long decisions on the child's behalf.

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Husayn, I think you have misunderstood what I am saying. I am not arguing against your basic premise which you restate "Dai is...ghulam of the Imam...". This is your belief and you want us all to agree with it. All I am saying is that this premise allows you to escape any discussion. It is like an escape hatch for you. This is your premise (belief) you accept it and you work everything around this beleif. Now I hope you do not go on to say that it is the basic tenet of our faith and if you do not agree with it you should leave the religion. I think you are much wiser than Tariq who used to visit this Board.<p>We digress...<p>Mumin wants to know why he cannot donate zakat to any charity of his choice. It is your view that zakat must be given to the Imam and since the Dai is the ghulam of the Imam it should only be given to him and no one else and hence there is nothing to discuss..case closed.<p>The problem Husayn, however, is that it is not as simple as that. The monies collected relate to a secular matter and that is to make the plight of the poor easier. The collection may be religiously prescribed but the recipient is to be the poor. You are content with the fact that it is with the Dai and so do not ask questions. Allah will deal with him. I am not saying it not be given to the Imam or Dai in his stead. Mumin is saying that we would like to know whether it is being spent on the poor becasue we do not have any visible signs around the community to suggest that it is being spent for the poor. The point is that the poor are here and now and not when we go and meet Allah. We would like to help the poor now. Not punish the Dai later after we die for not doing what he is supposed to do.<p>The US taxes you pay and refer to in your post is inappropriate because zakat is presecribed by Allah and taxes are imposed after a majority vote. Mumin is not against paying it . He wants to know where it goes. Since you raise governement taxes. Let me deal with it. First of all I do not agree that you do not know what happems to your taxes. It is obvious if you look around you: the police, the roads, the hospitals, the schools etc. need I go on. Also the governement publishes its accounts every year so you can find out exactly what your tax payer dollars are spent on. If you are still not satisfied you can make a request under the Freedom of Information laws to obtain more detail.<p>You then go to argue that since you did not elect the Imam and since wajibat is prescribed by Allah you can only complain to him and not to the Imam. What you are saying is that you will sit back and witness any abuse of zakat but you shall not question or complain until you die and come before Allah. How absurd.<p>Congratulations on your trip to Yemen. something I have been planning to do for a few years. If you are living in the US, you are the last person who should be the beneficiary of zakat funds . I thought it was for the poor. What were you doing using it.<p>Jamiea is not a university and is a voluntary institution. Most do not choose to go there but are asked or sent by their families. I do not know if it is a leglitimate use of zakat monies. I do not know. I know in East Africa many poor bohoras go to other communities for financial assitance when facing major medical problems.<p>Husayn, I have had fun discussing this with you and I know you mean well. Alah kher.

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Husein,this is the 21 century. The govt. in all western/civilised countries make a budget and are accountable to their respective parliament/senate. In all these countries there is something called a General auditor(kothar/likes of Huseyn doesn´t have a clue to what it is). <br>We all agree on one thing, and that is, Zakat is for the poor. How many poor,excluding Huseyn, have you seen visiting Musafirkhana´s, Ziarat in Yemen,Cairo,Kerbala, or for that matter in India? A poor,(in anybody with any commonsense), would be a person who cannot afford basic health,housing,clothing,education,etc.One does not have to go further than the Bohri moholla in Mumbai to find these poor mumins.Husayn,if he feels his trip was subsidised by kothar,should have paid in full.(mubarak on your Ziarat) does he have a clue as to how much $350 is in Local currency?<br>Why should the kothar anyway foot part-bill for people like you when you visit ziarats?You say it costs between$20-50000for university education in US, but do you know anything about the difference of living standard and education in US and Surat/Karachi where they have these jamias and the pay scale for their teachers/professors?I do not think that people who think like you have ever visited India,Pakistan,Africa and see how many poor mumin´s children would get basic education for $50000.

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Husayn; some questions and some comments.<br>1, What explanation do you have for the actions of the local amil and his committee who strictly enforces the rule that any bohri who is in ribba will not be allowed to hold darees or majlis,but at the same time this committee has hizbul falah monies and their own personal money in interest bearing accounts?<br>you quote nahjul balagha and moula Ali regards zakat. I quote " once a poor man came to moula ali and asked "sir,why do you dress up so simple?" allah has given you enough and afterall you are our Imam" moula Ali replied, " that is the reason. Because I am Imam how can I see my followers striving for a loaf of bread and not having enough clothes to even protect themselves while I dress up in rich garments. I am afraid of that day when my Allah will pose the question to me and what answer will I have. Oh allah I did not take this zakat money to make my life easy,but distributed among the poor and needy and I myself lived as simple as them to feel their pain as my pain. How can I travel first class all the way,when i see my followers in Bombay and Karachi trying to make ends meet. <br>Husyn i know for a fact in Karachi a family with daughters and no son ,who because of ill health of the father could not have the basic neccessites. They approached the kothar,but to no avail and one of the daughters had to resort to prostitution to make ends meet. <br>In Chicago to day,regardless of raza or no raza some of the bohri women have started a womens organization to help the poor. Some of the work they do with donations is supply medicines to the ill, help battered bohri women,baby sit for the children while the women goes to work,because of the husbands ill health,and many a more good deeds. <br>I have said it before and I will say it again. Zakat is a charity to help the poor. All it needs is a few good mumineen to get to gether and form an organization in your own home town to help each other in their time of need. Do not wait for raza from kothar to take permission to do your good. Surely Allah has given you enough sense to know how to help some one.<br>Husyn your statement that zakat money goes towards the upkeep of masjids and musafirkhanas is incorrect. If a masjid or musafirkhana is there then the local community has to foot the bill. Regardless if the musafir khana may have a few good ,nice airconditioned rooms reserved for the shezadas and their family when they arrive. I have seen in cairo,40 people to a room,when a few nice rooms were empty next door but the local amil said he could not open them because they were reserved for the shezadas when they come,maybe once in a year. Most of the time the local amil at cairo will direct you to stay in the local hotel at your cost,after accepting a salam and the regular monies. And here is some more truth. During my stay in Cairo I also visited the dai's residence. I was fortunate to take a tour of the entire house. In the living room you will see a boat made of gold presented to the Dai by the jamat of dubai. Questionable was the fact that the syedna may come to stay a couple of weeks or so,but a full staff of misri men and women are on the payroll the whole year. There was one bohri kaka at the gate whose job was to guard the place.Looking at his state I soon realized he was also on the payroll with a meagre income. Since the house was empty,a little bakshish from me had opened all the rooms in the house for me. I refrain from going into the details of the lavish bathrooms.<br>Question. Do you think that raza is needed from the local amil to do good deeds? If not then why all this money and wajebats to one person? Sabil is another scam. All the monies go towards the upkeep of the local amil. It is about time he worked for a living and contributed towards the cause equally.<br>

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Assalamu alaykum Dear Brothers/Sisters,<p>Insha'Allah, I would comment on some of the comments on this topic. <p>I think I has been interpreted that I am supported by the Dawat and by zakat. I am not sure how that I idea came about, because I did not say it any where in my posts. I am a professional who pays my own way. I actually had the barakat of having Daris of Sayedna Hatim Saheb in his dargah (daris in Hutaib is held in the dargah for everyone).<p>The dollar amounts I gave was already converted from the local currency so readers on this board would comprehend how much things in their own currency.<p>You are correct the mullah/shieks who are mu'alimin have only the kothar to support them unless they are able to attain work (which some try to do).<p>My example of the taxes to government and zakat to the bayt amal was to amplify the difference and not to compare similarities..because there are none. I gave the example to explain that for some stupid reason, bohras keep thinking that Islam is a democracy and those in charge of the Ummah are elected. Governments are elected...Imamate is not. Taxes are charged to the people by the government because representatives of the government make bills for purposes for the tax payers. We don't pick the Imam or his Dai. We don't have the right to question the authority of the Imam and what he does with the wajibaat that Allah requires us to pay, it is not our place. You know it and I know it, so why do we keeping beating the point? You can't make the sun blue, the sky green, nor changes Allah's rules.<p>Observer say monies collected relate to seculiar matter. No they don't. They relate to whom/where the Imam or his Dai feels the monies should be spent toward. You have done your requirement by Allah in paying it, the rest is for the Imam/Dai to decide. You don't know that the money isn't going towards hospitals in the mountains of Yemen or help the poor bohras there. You don't know it not to help bohras in India and Pakistan and Kenya in different ways. Yet you will condem everyone and everything for the things you don't know. I don't know either, but I don't and can't condemn and blamphasize the Imam and Dai for what I don't know. Would you do the same to Allah ta'Ala for not explaining everything you want to know in zahir form?!<br>Also, zakat can be used not only to the poor but to a lot of other causes as well.<p>Regarding education, again the amounts I stated were for university in the Indian/Pakistan equivalent to the standards of Jamia Saifayah (which is not just basic education) converted to actual buying dollars (ie $20,000 equals in actual buying rupees approx. Rs.200,000, not exchange rate of $1=Rs45). What you can buy in the US for $1 you can buy in India/Pakistan for 10 rupees; exchange rate doesn't apply here, unless your sending your child from the US to India/Pakistan for schooling. And actually I just came from India and Pakistan and know these areas very well. <p>Regarding Mumin comment on local communities footing the bill for musafir khannas and masjid is actually incorrect to the majority of places where there are musafirkhannas and masjids (like India, and the Middle East). Like the musafir khanna in Damascus..the only bohra family there is that of the Mullah who takes care of the musafir khanna. Cairo has about thirty families...you think they take care of the musafir khannas and masjids in Cairo?? No. Why do you think most are sent to hotels by Rasul Husayn? Yemen have about 15000 muminin and most can't afford to go to the ziyarats in Yemen itself. <p>Also Mumin on the community in Chicago, if they feel so strongly about community ventures like you describe no one said you can't give sadaqa to the cause. If they want to zakat money then they ask the Amil of Chicago. Try it first before assuming it won't work. Sabil is used for the local jamat (urus, wafat, and such occassion during the year) that are paid by the jamat themselves. If you want to know these costs the local amil will tell you. I know this for a fact.<p>And as a side note to Mumin: <br>a typical masjid/church in the high cost suburbs of Chicago would cost 8 to 10 million dollars to construct (if not more) depending upon the size of it; about $175-250/sqft. The Chicago Masjid will be the biggest bohra masjid in the US when it is complete. For comparision, a 2000 sqft. house in that same area costs about $250-450,000 to build (not including the land). The masjid is over 10000 total sqft and is three floors tall.<p>Was salam<br>

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The dai may be king,but not the people working under him. These are the culprits that have done harm. You talk about asking the local amil foe account of sabil money. What is the use of asking when it is spent without the consent of the people whose money it is in the first place. Most of the money is spent in salams,or the upkeep of the amil anyway.<br>From where do you get figures of $250 to 300 per square foot? Please do not pluck numbers out of thin air. <br>Even if zakat money is used for the upkeep of masafir khanas where only the well to do can visit,and several rooms being reserved for the shezadas,then is it not better that money should be spent on mumineen to satisfy basic neccessities of life rather than vacation lodging and boarding?.<br>I repeat my question again. What explanation do you have for the hizbul falah accounts and accounts of committee members in interest bearing accounts,yet they blow the horn that any body in riba cannot conduct darees or majlis?<br>Again we realize that the dai is dictatorial rule,but we question the people under him who are playing havock with the people's money.And whenever a question is asked they will shut you up by simply saying" dai nu farman che" although the dai may not even know about it and the issue is enforced by the committee of members appointed by the local amil,(which is not dictatorial but is selective and keeps changing any time a committee member is in the bad books of the local amil because he could make the amil happy with a big salam)<br>Also in different towns different rules are applied and the rules keep changing. <p>

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hussain bhai salaam,<br> Can you give any Quran verse or Hadith or saying of Imam that Zakat money can be used for constructuin of musafir khana,masjid,or for students who study in Jamea or for darees in Yemen at Sayedna HAtim Qubh.Zakat is meant only to help poor people in Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) Islam, may it can be used other than helping poors in Kothar version of Islam.

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Salams<p>Surat Tawbah ayat 60<p>PICKTHAL translation: <br>The alms are only for the poor and the needy, and those who collect them, and those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and to free the captives and the debtors, and for the cause of Allah, and (for) the wayfarer; a duty imposed by Allah. Allah is Knower, Wise.<p>Typically building and care of masjids and musafir khannas where the community cannot are considered "and for the cause of Allah". This has also been implied for those who Islamically teach the community such jamia talibs and ustads.<p>Regarding the cost I quoted for the Chicago Masjid...I am an architect whose company designs churchs in the midwest.<p>Was salam<br>

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I take the upper limit you mentioned; then at 250. 10000 = 2.5 million and the cost of land which is a half acre lot maximum half a million. The total project maybe 3 to 3.5 million. Big difference between 3.5 and 10 million. The funny part is the project has been continuing for almost 6 years and at the persent time construction has stopped.<br>I take your numbers. If you observe the type of construction, the 1/4" sheetrock walls, it barely meets minimum code requirements.The whole structure is a typical warehousei.e. I beams and a metal roof on a 4" pad. The point I am making is that surely funds have been misappropriated.And this is not just one case. The masjid in Karachi saddar went through the same nightmare. The so called holy and religious people have made their retirement on that project.These factual cases should be evidence enough that a lot of hanky pancky is going on among the shezads and bhai sahebs. They are out there in the name of religion to get a piece of the pie. You have designed churches in the midwest. Have you seen any thing of this nature?<br>I again repeat. Why are mumins not allowed to do darees and majlis in their homes because of mortgage when hizbul Falah accounts and monies of committee members are in interest bearing accounts? Your silence will confirm that there is hypocrisy. As the saying goes" Do as I say and not as I do" . <br>All the nabis and Imams practised what they preached;they led simple lives,why should ours be any different.This difference right from the 50th.dai onwards may mean something went wrong somewhere.

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Assalamu alaykum<p>Dear Mumin,<br>I apologize for one of the figures I quoted for the masjid in Chicago. The actual sq ft for the project is 30000 sqft not 10000 sqft. This was my mistake obviously. Note the prices I listed were for projected that were constructed without any signficant delays or added costs.<p>A project shouldn't be delayed over 4 for 5 years because of money collected. The more you delay a project the more the contractors will add they cost delaying. Regarding seeing something similar to this...unfortunately it goes on all the time with projects that are community/religiously based. Churches collect money and pledges for renovation/new building (fund raisers)in the hope that members will pay. If they don't once the project in underway then the project will be delayed and costs increase greatly. It is the same with the Chicago masjid. Only half of those who pledged to pay their share of the cost actually paid their debt in full to this date. As a result the project keeps being put on hold; contractors don't work without money and extra charges are added for delays.<p>I have no comment on misapproation of funds because I have no evidence other than your word to go by. I cannot accuse people of things before knowing actual evidence that this happened. Daris/majlis can be done in a home if it is not in mortgage (no ribah). <p>Let me leave you with a quote I once heard<br>"Judge Islam by what it expounds and teaches, not by those who follow it." ...the followers might not be following Islam in its entirely.<p>Was salam

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Can you,Huseyn, or anybody for that matter, please name any hospital,education institution(exept Jamia which is a factory, producing goods(mulla)that are send to different parts of the world to controll, brainwash and collect money under different pretexes).Of course I do not know what is going all around the world,but please somebody, somewhere tell some good deeds that the kothar has done somewhere? I think u are living in a little bohri moholla in chicago,(or any other place for that matter,in your own little kothari world) and don´t have a clue as to what is happening to fellow momins around the world. It does not surprise me as you probably do not have and will never get RAZA to acqure such information.You probably never socialise with anybody other than your own type. <br>The "ferman" from the kothar is, return your morgaged property back to the bank, do not take money from the bank for anything,inkluding business, but they never help you out.there are lots of well to do kotharis and their chamchas who force people to get rid of their legitimate business, house etc but they never ask how they themselves acquried either the wealth or the title(mulla,sheikh etc which does not come free)they have today.You can be assured, I know what I am talking about cos I know of many such persons. I am not taking any figures from the air as Huseyn in his ref. to the chocago masjid. With his figures its a wonder how his company is surviving as architects.

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Salams<p>Actually the figures I quoted were from the Means Constuction Data Book which is published yearly. You can purchase it through Means over the internet or by mail. I also cross referenced it with General Contractors prices we've received over the last three churches my company have designed for.<p>Regarding things the Kothar has built, I personally have see the two hospitals in the mountains of Yemen near and around Sayedna Hatim Saheb turbat, as well as the pumping system Maulana installed for water delivery to all area in and around Hutaib for free. These are the only facilities that all the muslims in that area have to go to. Others may know of others. <p>And my brother, your comments about me are very shallow. I would aspect better adab from a brother who provide no evidence regarding topics than opinions. Don't forget, I am replying to you on your reformist site.<p>Was salams

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I think George Bernard Shaw did a comparative study of all main stream religions and concluded that Islam is the best religion but with the worst Muslims as followers!!<p>But now about Husayn's comments he "heard"!!!!!<p>Let me leave you with a quote I once heard<br>"Judge Islam by what it expounds and teaches, not by those who follow it." ...the followers might not be following Islam in its entirely."<p>What about the so-called Leaders? I am referring to the so-called leaders who for their own love of power, influence and wealth has divided Islam into at least 72 firqas during the the last 1421 years or so. Why? Because of the power struggle between the leaders, some of them aspiring to divide and conquer the gullible and exploited flock. Some of the examples:<p>The three Khalifas against Hazrat Moulana Ali<p>Maawiya and Yezid and his family against Imam Hassan and Imam Hussein<p>(The founding of the Druze, Alawites etc.)<p>The schism between Musa Qazim and Imam Ismai<p>The schism between Nizar and Imam Aamir<p>The schism between Sulaiyaman and Dais AjabShah/Kutubshah<p>The founding of the Alavi Bohris, Nagoshya Bohris, and the Naagpuri Bohris,<p>The schism and dispute about the Naas of/on the 47th Dai!! Remember the torture on the four Jaameya aalims (the 52nd Dais teachers)by the current Kotharwho exposed this fact??<p>At present the schism between the Kothari Bohris and the Progressives<p>Without getting into the right or wrong of these schsims or divisions, all these came about because of the leaders' love of power, influence, control and most of all wealth. If some of these leaders had NOT initiated/led the movements, the followers would not have followed the leaders to break up Islam into these firqas.<p><br>A true self-less leader is on who:<p>chalenges the process<br>inspires a shared vision<br>enables others to act<br>models the way and <br>encourages the heart<p>(The Leadership Challenge by: J.M.Kouzes and B.Z.Posner)<p><p>Wassalam<p><br>

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I did not know you still read books to quote construction costs. You must be a green architect just out of school. My advice ,do not religiously adhere to the numbers in the means book. Design a few projects and find out your self. The Chicago masjid is a mild steel I beam and coloumn structure with a metal roof. The funny thing is that even on this simple type of construction coloumns have been errected right in the prayer area,instead of one single span. The construction costs to make such a structure weather proof is about $10 per square foot.<br>For your information ,the land was purchased outright,and $3.9million were in the hands of the committee overlooking the project before construction started. Big money fizzled away in salams and vacation trips by the committee members to London with the pretext of inviting syedna for the opening ceremony. Syedna had mentioned to them on their first visit"first complete the masjid and then invite me" but chamchas have been vacationing on this money allocated for the masjid. Your statement that unavailability of funds escalated the cost is completely out of context. Everything would have been completed on time had it not been the nose poking of many a zero construction knowledge miasahebs and bhaisahebs and to stop their interference and continue construction bribe in the form of salams had to be met. <br>How very money minded is the kothar,that when one wants to hold a ziafat or some religious occasion the first question asked by the bhaisaheb is "bhai salam kitla arz karso" It is a shame. <br>Where is your sense of reasoning. On the one hand you tout the horn that you cannot do darees in a mortgaged house yet you put your money where it makes the most interest for you. And please do not say I dont know, you know ,he know she know. I am stating facts with concrete evidences and you know in your heart the truth so do not try to cover up .<br>To give interest and to take interest both is haram.

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Salams,<br>Dear Mumin,<br>No, actually I am not a green architect nor one who just relies on book figures. Like I said, I compare these values to the last three churches my company designed. And for your info. the column space at the masjid is at least 40 feet for the two story space. This is not a simple I beam type construction (FYI: I beams aren't even used on commercial construction; W sections are). Yes it a metal roof, but that is the small load on the columns compared to the beams for the balcony with support the women. The columns are probably W24 at largest, but they're wrapped in gyp. bd. circular columns for looks.<p>And regarding your concrete evidence..please share not your word.

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Husyn. you tried to justify 3000sq.feet at $250per sq. foot and now you are trying to justify 30000 square feet at $250 per square foot.<br>The whole project is worth not more than 2.5 million dollars. <br>Gypsum wrapping is one of the cheap ways out.