porus,
Unfortunately for you, you will never be able to tell me what the original ayats state. It was a hole that you dug for yourself.
For God everything is possible, except stupidity, as you would have him do.
Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
anajmi,
Do you think Moses heard that voice speaking as it is related in those ayats of the Quran? I mean the original Quran?
Did Moses know Arabic? Or was it translated for him by Yusufali into Moses' own language? Possibly the language of Taurat?
What was the language of Moses? That of Taurat, Ancient Hebrew or Ancient Egyptian, as he was raised by the Queen of Egypt?
Do you think it was God's miracle that Moses understood the Arabic of Quran? Was Moses aware of the Quran that would later be revealed to Muhammad? What conversation took place between Moses and Muhammad during Meraj?
Happy reasearching!!
Do you think Moses heard that voice speaking as it is related in those ayats of the Quran? I mean the original Quran?
Did Moses know Arabic? Or was it translated for him by Yusufali into Moses' own language? Possibly the language of Taurat?
What was the language of Moses? That of Taurat, Ancient Hebrew or Ancient Egyptian, as he was raised by the Queen of Egypt?
Do you think it was God's miracle that Moses understood the Arabic of Quran? Was Moses aware of the Quran that would later be revealed to Muhammad? What conversation took place between Moses and Muhammad during Meraj?
Happy reasearching!!
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
porus,
All I can say is,
Happy loosing it!!
All I can say is,
Happy loosing it!!
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
And here are the answers for the questions that you raised.
I don't know.Do you think Moses heard that voice speaking as it is related in those ayats of the Quran? I mean the original Quran?
I don't know.Did Moses know Arabic? Or was it translated for him by Yusufali into Moses' own language? Possibly the language of Taurat?
I don't know.What was the language of Moses? That of Taurat, Ancient Hebrew or Ancient Egyptian, as he was raised by the Queen of Egypt?
Don't know.Do you think it was God's miracle that Moses understood the Arabic of Quran?
Don't know.Was Moses aware of the Quran that would later be revealed to Muhammad?
I am sure you wanted to know the language that was used by them and not the actual conversation right? The answer is - you guessed it - Don't know.What conversation took place between Moses and Muhammad during Meraj?
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
its funny how so many interpretations can go into a few lines........ofcourse being God's own words they have to be at a higher plane than statements made by us mere mortals.....but doesnt that raise questions abt how good can be anyone of us be in understanding the true meaning of these verses!!!....on the flip side...if God dint intend us to understand their true meaning...then y did He address His word to all humanity???....
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Porus,
Please, please draw some conclusions on the basis of your belief/beliefs whenever you are at the discussions. Kindly don't beat about the bush.
Tell us your interpretation of those ayahs here in particular and others in general.
There are many on the board who have claimed you a genius then kindly show your genius. Please don't leave the topic lurking.
Please, please draw some conclusions on the basis of your belief/beliefs whenever you are at the discussions. Kindly don't beat about the bush.
Tell us your interpretation of those ayahs here in particular and others in general.
There are many on the board who have claimed you a genius then kindly show your genius. Please don't leave the topic lurking.
-
like_minded
- Posts: 1260
- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:01 am
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Creation by itself has imparted generous seeds of godliness and life manifestations. Therefore all forms of practicality which is the essence of all religions and ideological truths needs to be understood.
-
like_minded
- Posts: 1260
- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:01 am
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Theories and frequent referring to the books will not lend any credence to peaceful and harmonious living which is the ultimate motivation for happiness.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
humane,
You won't get an answer. According to porus' logic a person cannot write Germany's history in Hindi because German's didn't speak Hindi. With logic such as that, drawing conclusions would become pretty difficult. The best you can do is muddy the waters and try to confuse those who can be confused.
You won't get an answer. According to porus' logic a person cannot write Germany's history in Hindi because German's didn't speak Hindi. With logic such as that, drawing conclusions would become pretty difficult. The best you can do is muddy the waters and try to confuse those who can be confused.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Friends,
Please excuse me for jumping the topics in Johna Blank’s books in discussion. I promise to continue.
The writer has given an interesting profile of a Bohra family from Mumbai. My personal experience in the community and my own orthodox relatives confirms his view.
A large numbers of Bohras are now fed up with Kothar’s loot and high-handedness. But they are not prepared to oppose them. So they find their peace in staying away from them:
Mullahs on the Mainframe - Chapter Nine:
PROFILE OF A FAMILY NOT OBSERVING DAWAT’S NORMS OF ORTHOPRAXY
While most Bohra households are in broad compliance with dawat guidelines and do at least the minimum necessary to maintain their standing in the community, a number of Bohra families live quite happily outside the dawat’s sphere of control.
They are not necessarily politicized dissidents like Asghar Ali Engineer, but are merely families who choose to circumvent dawat restrictions rather than either submit to them or challenge them openly.
Such a policy would be virtually impossible in towns or small cities, but the anonymity of a sprawling metropolis like Mumbai lets families live under the dawat’s radar screen.
One such household consists of Zulfikar, his wife Khadija, and their two children Latifa and Hasan. (The names the members of this family have been changed for obvious reasons.) They live in a modest middle-class apartment, in a modest middle-class suburb, enjoying such comforts and conveniences as a Car, a Television, VCR, Microwave oven, Computer, and two phone lines.
Like the homes of more orthodox Bohras, the apartment is immaculate (faltless). There is, however, one glaring difference: unlike orthodox homes, this flat has no picture of Syedna. “We refuse to put up a photo of the high priest,” says Khadija, “because Islam prohibits the reverence of idols.” It is noteworthy that she refers to the da’i as “high priest” rather than with the usual Bohra appellations of “Syedna” or “His Holiness.”
Khadija wears a sari instead of a Rida. She considers the rida to be hypocritical: “If it were true purdah it might serve some purpose,” she says. But Bohra clothing leaves the face wholly exposed, and ‘fancy ridas’ are the height of vanity. I prefer to dress comfortably, and be honest about it.”
Zulfikar, an engineer, runs his own consulting company with a Hindu, a Christian, and a Parsi for partners. He has a graying mustache, but no Beard. Wearing topi and kurta to work, he says, would be professionally disastrous: “Clients would lose all confidence in me, regard me as a backward fundamentalist.”
When he does wear a topi, at community functions where it is unavoidable, he invariably stands out because of his lack of a Beard. But he knows many more Bohras without beards and tear the topis off their heads the moment they step out of the masjid.
“Fundamentalism is rising in all groups,” he says, “Sunnis, Shi’a, Christians, even Hindus. To me, fundamentalism means following a set of rules with Jains or Parsis than with the Sunnis, so why should we follow their example?” Zulfikar is, however, quite willing to follow Islamic practices that make sense to him personally.
Latifa and Hasan, both in their early twenties and still living at home, agree with their parents’ outlook. Latifa, who is studying computer programming, wears a sari and feels uncomfortable in a rida. Hasan, a biomedical technician, has no beard or mustache, and resents being lectured when he attends a community function, “I am doing nothing wrong,” he says, “so what gives them the right to criticize me?”
The family does not pay dawat taxes, a fact that in itself would make them liable for red card status (if not outright social Baraat).
They get away with it by keeping a low profile. The local amil doesn’t know them, and they are very discreet about attending functions where they might be noticed.
They turn down invitations to most Bohra weddings, all except the shadis of close friends and relatives. Many of their friends within the community tend to be similarly inclined: avoiding taxes whenever possible, generally noncompliant in matters of dress and appearance, seeking to evade rather than outright challenge dawat strictures.
Both Khadija and Zulfikar come from aristocratic Surti families.
Their family backgrounds would have justified an enormous wedding, perhaps even with the Nikah performed by Syedna himself, but Khadija and Zulfikar opted instead for a simple civil ceremony overseas.
The family members do not have ID cards, and have been able to live without them, but social situations are always a bit precarious, cards are generally not needed for social functions at a jamatkhana or religious observances at a masjid, and the services for which certificates are required (staying in musafirkhanas, receiving alamat, having Syedna select children’s names) are not services for which the family has much desire Situations like marriage are somewhat trickier. A civil ceremony or a nonBohra nikah can be hidden from the dawat, but any celebration to which large numbers of Bohras will be invited is sure to be noticed by the authorities.
In these cases the host must have a valid certificate, but (Khadija says) many people simply have the party “officially” hosted by a friend or relative with valid credentials. Several of Khadija’s close friends hold green cards, so the social barriers between orthodox and unorthodox Bohras are not as tight as either dawat or dissident sources might indicate.
Despite their rejection of the da’is identity solidification program, nobody in the family says anything derogatory about Syedna himself. This is quite typical of almost all the nonobservant and dissident Bohras I have met. Those with little use for the da’is rules maintain a certain degree of disrespect for the nosiness and harassment of clerics; the intrigues and greed of Qasr-e Ali members, and the heavy-handedness of dawat restrictions. Many Bohra women’s view of the faith is indicative of Khadija’s and of many other members of the Bohra community: “I believe that the heart of all religion is ethics, and love for all."
Please excuse me for jumping the topics in Johna Blank’s books in discussion. I promise to continue.
The writer has given an interesting profile of a Bohra family from Mumbai. My personal experience in the community and my own orthodox relatives confirms his view.
A large numbers of Bohras are now fed up with Kothar’s loot and high-handedness. But they are not prepared to oppose them. So they find their peace in staying away from them:
Mullahs on the Mainframe - Chapter Nine:
PROFILE OF A FAMILY NOT OBSERVING DAWAT’S NORMS OF ORTHOPRAXY
While most Bohra households are in broad compliance with dawat guidelines and do at least the minimum necessary to maintain their standing in the community, a number of Bohra families live quite happily outside the dawat’s sphere of control.
They are not necessarily politicized dissidents like Asghar Ali Engineer, but are merely families who choose to circumvent dawat restrictions rather than either submit to them or challenge them openly.
Such a policy would be virtually impossible in towns or small cities, but the anonymity of a sprawling metropolis like Mumbai lets families live under the dawat’s radar screen.
One such household consists of Zulfikar, his wife Khadija, and their two children Latifa and Hasan. (The names the members of this family have been changed for obvious reasons.) They live in a modest middle-class apartment, in a modest middle-class suburb, enjoying such comforts and conveniences as a Car, a Television, VCR, Microwave oven, Computer, and two phone lines.
Like the homes of more orthodox Bohras, the apartment is immaculate (faltless). There is, however, one glaring difference: unlike orthodox homes, this flat has no picture of Syedna. “We refuse to put up a photo of the high priest,” says Khadija, “because Islam prohibits the reverence of idols.” It is noteworthy that she refers to the da’i as “high priest” rather than with the usual Bohra appellations of “Syedna” or “His Holiness.”
Khadija wears a sari instead of a Rida. She considers the rida to be hypocritical: “If it were true purdah it might serve some purpose,” she says. But Bohra clothing leaves the face wholly exposed, and ‘fancy ridas’ are the height of vanity. I prefer to dress comfortably, and be honest about it.”
Zulfikar, an engineer, runs his own consulting company with a Hindu, a Christian, and a Parsi for partners. He has a graying mustache, but no Beard. Wearing topi and kurta to work, he says, would be professionally disastrous: “Clients would lose all confidence in me, regard me as a backward fundamentalist.”
When he does wear a topi, at community functions where it is unavoidable, he invariably stands out because of his lack of a Beard. But he knows many more Bohras without beards and tear the topis off their heads the moment they step out of the masjid.
“Fundamentalism is rising in all groups,” he says, “Sunnis, Shi’a, Christians, even Hindus. To me, fundamentalism means following a set of rules with Jains or Parsis than with the Sunnis, so why should we follow their example?” Zulfikar is, however, quite willing to follow Islamic practices that make sense to him personally.
Latifa and Hasan, both in their early twenties and still living at home, agree with their parents’ outlook. Latifa, who is studying computer programming, wears a sari and feels uncomfortable in a rida. Hasan, a biomedical technician, has no beard or mustache, and resents being lectured when he attends a community function, “I am doing nothing wrong,” he says, “so what gives them the right to criticize me?”
The family does not pay dawat taxes, a fact that in itself would make them liable for red card status (if not outright social Baraat).
They get away with it by keeping a low profile. The local amil doesn’t know them, and they are very discreet about attending functions where they might be noticed.
They turn down invitations to most Bohra weddings, all except the shadis of close friends and relatives. Many of their friends within the community tend to be similarly inclined: avoiding taxes whenever possible, generally noncompliant in matters of dress and appearance, seeking to evade rather than outright challenge dawat strictures.
Both Khadija and Zulfikar come from aristocratic Surti families.
Their family backgrounds would have justified an enormous wedding, perhaps even with the Nikah performed by Syedna himself, but Khadija and Zulfikar opted instead for a simple civil ceremony overseas.
The family members do not have ID cards, and have been able to live without them, but social situations are always a bit precarious, cards are generally not needed for social functions at a jamatkhana or religious observances at a masjid, and the services for which certificates are required (staying in musafirkhanas, receiving alamat, having Syedna select children’s names) are not services for which the family has much desire Situations like marriage are somewhat trickier. A civil ceremony or a nonBohra nikah can be hidden from the dawat, but any celebration to which large numbers of Bohras will be invited is sure to be noticed by the authorities.
In these cases the host must have a valid certificate, but (Khadija says) many people simply have the party “officially” hosted by a friend or relative with valid credentials. Several of Khadija’s close friends hold green cards, so the social barriers between orthodox and unorthodox Bohras are not as tight as either dawat or dissident sources might indicate.
Despite their rejection of the da’is identity solidification program, nobody in the family says anything derogatory about Syedna himself. This is quite typical of almost all the nonobservant and dissident Bohras I have met. Those with little use for the da’is rules maintain a certain degree of disrespect for the nosiness and harassment of clerics; the intrigues and greed of Qasr-e Ali members, and the heavy-handedness of dawat restrictions. Many Bohra women’s view of the faith is indicative of Khadija’s and of many other members of the Bohra community: “I believe that the heart of all religion is ethics, and love for all."
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
humane,
To explain it with an example, let us say I am the Hindi author writing Germany's history.
And I write - Hitler ne apni fauj ko hukm diya ki Poland par hamla karo.
Now an average person would read that and understand that Hitler asked his army to attack Poland. Porus however would read it and think, - but Hitler never spoke Hindi, how could he have given that command in Hindi? Did YusufAli translate it from Hindi to Germany. Maybe Hitler never attacked Poland because he couldn't speak Hindi.
To explain it with an example, let us say I am the Hindi author writing Germany's history.
And I write - Hitler ne apni fauj ko hukm diya ki Poland par hamla karo.
Now an average person would read that and understand that Hitler asked his army to attack Poland. Porus however would read it and think, - but Hitler never spoke Hindi, how could he have given that command in Hindi? Did YusufAli translate it from Hindi to Germany. Maybe Hitler never attacked Poland because he couldn't speak Hindi.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Say, I am God.
And I write:
Musa-ko ek awaaz sunaai di ke "Mein tumahra Rab hun".
And I translate for English speakers:
God spoke to Moses "I am your Lord."
??
You can write history of any country with any language and many have been written. Nobody is going to call you a 'kafir' for not agreeing with them.
Quran is unique in that respect.
Reading a translation and then claiming that Quran says such and such, without a doubt, requires particular kind of genius, which is displayed here a plenty.
And I write:
Musa-ko ek awaaz sunaai di ke "Mein tumahra Rab hun".
And I translate for English speakers:
God spoke to Moses "I am your Lord."
??
You can write history of any country with any language and many have been written. Nobody is going to call you a 'kafir' for not agreeing with them.
Quran is unique in that respect.
Reading a translation and then claiming that Quran says such and such, without a doubt, requires particular kind of genius, which is displayed here a plenty.
-
Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Nice.Actually, God wanted to talk to Ali, but Jibrail forestalled God by taking his message to Muhammad instead. And then God took back seat while letting his favorite angel to perpetuate the error for another 23 years. That is our Batini belief.
Do you have Batini for?
(80:1) He frowned and turned away his face---
I understand Ismailies have Batini for this Surah too.
I read somewhere that Shias believe that the Prophet did not frown but it was Hz. Uthman RA.
Prophets are infallable therefore would not commit such error.
Is it true?
Wasalaam
.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
MF,
The actual quote from me was:
Actually, God wanted to talk to Ali, but Jibrail forestalled God by taking his message to Muhammad instead. And then God took back seat while letting his favorite angel to perpetuate the error for another 23 years. That is our Batini belief.
Did you miss out the emoticons? That quote is your belief of the Shia belief, if you remember. You have yet to provide a reference for it.
The actual quote from me was:
Actually, God wanted to talk to Ali, but Jibrail forestalled God by taking his message to Muhammad instead. And then God took back seat while letting his favorite angel to perpetuate the error for another 23 years. That is our Batini belief.
Did you miss out the emoticons? That quote is your belief of the Shia belief, if you remember. You have yet to provide a reference for it.
-
Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
.
No brother
It is not my belief of shia belief.
Shia belief is clear when you listen to their Dais, Ayatullah or Aalims (12ver Aalim when they deliver Waez during Ashura). They spend countless hours why Islam is incomlete without this Imami stuff.
Just look at this.
This kind of stuff and there is so much.
Just read reflection on Waaz of your demi God.
Take it easy brother;
Wasalaam
.
No brother
It is not my belief of shia belief.
Shia belief is clear when you listen to their Dais, Ayatullah or Aalims (12ver Aalim when they deliver Waez during Ashura). They spend countless hours why Islam is incomlete without this Imami stuff.
Just look at this.
This kind of stuff and there is so much.
Just read reflection on Waaz of your demi God.
Take it easy brother;
Wasalaam
.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
MF brother,
You have to provide a reference for your claim that Shias believe that Quran was delivered to Muhammad in error. You claim that they believe that Quran was meant for Ali.
Whether Shias believe Ali is God himself is not relevant to the issue. Unless you claim that to be the Shia belief too.
So, it is easy. Backup your claim, as outlined in the first paragraph above.
You have to provide a reference for your claim that Shias believe that Quran was delivered to Muhammad in error. You claim that they believe that Quran was meant for Ali.
Whether Shias believe Ali is God himself is not relevant to the issue. Unless you claim that to be the Shia belief too.
So, it is easy. Backup your claim, as outlined in the first paragraph above.
-
Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
.
.
Br. Porus
To end contention and conflict let me say I posted what I heard. Let's say it was hearsay.
Wasalaam
.
.
Br. Porus
To end contention and conflict let me say I posted what I heard. Let's say it was hearsay.
Wasalaam
.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Brother Porus,
1)If Quran can't be translated then what should be done to the existing Quran?
2)Was the Quran only understood by the ones who lived during prophet's time? Being a shia you'll say that only Ahl albait could understand it if that was, so why Quran didn't emanate to them secretly?
3)I remember somewhere on the board you said that even current Arabs can't understand the Quran, for their Arabic has changed over a long period of time let alone the non arabs. If that is the case, what has to be done to the Quran? Should we only read it and kiss it out of respect and that's it?
Please brother, don't beat about the bush. And respond logically.
And for you:
Iqbal Bada Updeshak Hai, Mun Baaton Mein Moh Leta Hai;
Guftaar Ka Gaazi Hai Tu Bana, Kirdar Kaa Gaazi Ban Naa Sakaa.
1)If Quran can't be translated then what should be done to the existing Quran?
2)Was the Quran only understood by the ones who lived during prophet's time? Being a shia you'll say that only Ahl albait could understand it if that was, so why Quran didn't emanate to them secretly?
3)I remember somewhere on the board you said that even current Arabs can't understand the Quran, for their Arabic has changed over a long period of time let alone the non arabs. If that is the case, what has to be done to the Quran? Should we only read it and kiss it out of respect and that's it?
Please brother, don't beat about the bush. And respond logically.
And for you:
Iqbal Bada Updeshak Hai, Mun Baaton Mein Moh Leta Hai;
Guftaar Ka Gaazi Hai Tu Bana, Kirdar Kaa Gaazi Ban Naa Sakaa.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Humane,
Is message board par hum sab guftaar ke hi gaazi hain;
Kirdaari hamare bas mein nahin,
Gumnaam jo likhte jaa rahe hain.
**********
Do with Quran what you will. My genius is unfortunately not up to the level of offering any advice on the matter.
This is what I do with Quran. I read it in Arabic because it improves my Arabic. I always have a Quranic Dictionary handy. If some passages prove difficult, I refer to English, Gujarati and Urdu translations. If I do not agree, I try to translate them on my own.
I believe that Quran was revealed in secret to Muhammad. That is because there is no evidence of anyone else being present when its ayats were revealed to him. I believe that Muhammad alone was the exegete of the Quran while he was alive. With his death, orginal Quran ceased to be available.
If you are a Shia, then you believe that instructions on the taawil of the Quran was given to Ali and through him, to Imams. This allowed Imams to continue with Quran's exegesis. With sectarian splits among the Shia, this source of taawil has splintered. While a lot of useful exegesis is available from the Shia aalims and Dais, we no longer have the knowledge of where authentic, by that I mean original taawil comes from.
The Quran we now have was compiled during the Khilafa of Usman. It is known as Usmani Mashaf, not simply the Quran. The fact is that compilation was done using the memorizers of the Quran and written parchments that were then available. Editing job was done by humans. And a political decision was made to agree on one copy and destroy all others. Even today, you will find slight variations in copies published in different countries.
Hence, we cannot be certain that we have the Quran as it was originally revealed to Muhammad.
Of course, we have commentaries and exegeses by a number of people, which are all excellent sources of knowledge.
For your information, I am no longer going to offer my translation of the Quran on this board. I will however point out what I consider to be errors in existing popular translations, if and when they are posted on this board.
Is message board par hum sab guftaar ke hi gaazi hain;
Kirdaari hamare bas mein nahin,
Gumnaam jo likhte jaa rahe hain.
**********
Do with Quran what you will. My genius is unfortunately not up to the level of offering any advice on the matter.
This is what I do with Quran. I read it in Arabic because it improves my Arabic. I always have a Quranic Dictionary handy. If some passages prove difficult, I refer to English, Gujarati and Urdu translations. If I do not agree, I try to translate them on my own.
I believe that Quran was revealed in secret to Muhammad. That is because there is no evidence of anyone else being present when its ayats were revealed to him. I believe that Muhammad alone was the exegete of the Quran while he was alive. With his death, orginal Quran ceased to be available.
If you are a Shia, then you believe that instructions on the taawil of the Quran was given to Ali and through him, to Imams. This allowed Imams to continue with Quran's exegesis. With sectarian splits among the Shia, this source of taawil has splintered. While a lot of useful exegesis is available from the Shia aalims and Dais, we no longer have the knowledge of where authentic, by that I mean original taawil comes from.
The Quran we now have was compiled during the Khilafa of Usman. It is known as Usmani Mashaf, not simply the Quran. The fact is that compilation was done using the memorizers of the Quran and written parchments that were then available. Editing job was done by humans. And a political decision was made to agree on one copy and destroy all others. Even today, you will find slight variations in copies published in different countries.
Hence, we cannot be certain that we have the Quran as it was originally revealed to Muhammad.
Of course, we have commentaries and exegeses by a number of people, which are all excellent sources of knowledge.
For your information, I am no longer going to offer my translation of the Quran on this board. I will however point out what I consider to be errors in existing popular translations, if and when they are posted on this board.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Brother MF,Originally posted by Muslim First:
.
.
Br. Porus
To end contention and conflict let me say I posted what I heard. Let's say it was hearsay.
Wasalaam
.
That was very courageous of you. You earned my respect.
It is a false allegation against the Shia.
You are aware of my view that no creation - and that includes prophets, Ali, imams and Dais - can be God. God is uncreated. If you can experience a person, spirit, or a thing, it is not God.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Br. Porous
Salaams
Seems like you are not a non-believer in Quran as portrayed by Anjami but you have very good arguments.
I was told by someone who has same kind of views that nowhere in Quran it says that you have to pray 5 times a day in very clear message.
Before MF and Anjami start throwing Hadiths and Ayats, I want to make it clear I do pray 5 times a day but I also have not seen in clear words that Salat is required 5 times
Please clarify.
Salaams
Seems like you are not a non-believer in Quran as portrayed by Anjami but you have very good arguments.
I was told by someone who has same kind of views that nowhere in Quran it says that you have to pray 5 times a day in very clear message.
Before MF and Anjami start throwing Hadiths and Ayats, I want to make it clear I do pray 5 times a day but I also have not seen in clear words that Salat is required 5 times
Please clarify.
-
accountability
- Posts: 1640
- Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
OB dont say that, or anajmi will term you kafir, last year I said the same thing.
you are right, I could not even find in quran, one single directive to read namaz, quran says, Iqam us salat, build salat, it never said, read namaz. I would wonder, why wouldn't Allah give clear instructions, what he wants us to follow. So is the case with all diams, like salat, saum, zakat and hajj and jihad. let us see what the owners of religion would say.
you are right, I could not even find in quran, one single directive to read namaz, quran says, Iqam us salat, build salat, it never said, read namaz. I would wonder, why wouldn't Allah give clear instructions, what he wants us to follow. So is the case with all diams, like salat, saum, zakat and hajj and jihad. let us see what the owners of religion would say.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
omabharti,
I don't believe in heaven but I sure as hell (
) want to get in it.
There is no need to throw hadith or ayats at you. You are too stupid to understand either.
accty,
Same goes for you too. Your knowledge of quran is well known, even to porus.
porus,
Here is a simple explanation of where you are coming from. You do not believe in God, so when translating the quran you try to find an explanation which confirms your belief. If Moses heard the voice of God saying that it is the voice of God, may be anajmi was fooling Moses with a tape recorder. I think your explanation of the quran doesn't deserve a second look except for people like omabharti and accty who don't think the quran is rational but want to get into heaven nonetheless.
And I am the one who is supposed to be a blind follower.Before MF and Anjami start throwing Hadiths and Ayats, I want to make it clear I do pray 5 times a day but I also have not seen in clear words that Salat is required 5 times
I don't believe in heaven but I sure as hell (
) want to get in it.There is no need to throw hadith or ayats at you. You are too stupid to understand either.
accty,
Same goes for you too. Your knowledge of quran is well known, even to porus.
porus,
Here is a simple explanation of where you are coming from. You do not believe in God, so when translating the quran you try to find an explanation which confirms your belief. If Moses heard the voice of God saying that it is the voice of God, may be anajmi was fooling Moses with a tape recorder. I think your explanation of the quran doesn't deserve a second look except for people like omabharti and accty who don't think the quran is rational but want to get into heaven nonetheless.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
accty,
If you can show me one ayah of the quran which says, it is ok if you don't pray salah, or give zakat, or fast or perform hajj, just one ayah, I promise you I will never ever post on this board again.
Even if you can show me one sahih hadith of the prophet which says that you don't need to pray 5 times a day, 4 or 3 or 2 or even 1 is enough, or if you can show me one hadith which says that you need not fast or perform Hajj or give zakat, I will stand corrected and except anyone of you idiots as my guru.
If you can show me one ayah of the quran which says, it is ok if you don't pray salah, or give zakat, or fast or perform hajj, just one ayah, I promise you I will never ever post on this board again.
Even if you can show me one sahih hadith of the prophet which says that you don't need to pray 5 times a day, 4 or 3 or 2 or even 1 is enough, or if you can show me one hadith which says that you need not fast or perform Hajj or give zakat, I will stand corrected and except anyone of you idiots as my guru.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
sorri to change the topic guys but in reference to Mr Insaf's exerpts abt modern bohri families .....being brought up in a conservative family i cud only yearn to have such an open minded environment......fortunately for me i have had a good education which has taught me to use reason and rational thinking to make judgements...n thus here i m looking for answers.......n i almost all of us...even the most orthodox bohras..especially those on this board.....are consciously or subconsciously looking for answers.....blind faith can neva be absolute....there will always be that element of doubt in the person's mind ......cuz God has gifted man the ability to think and reason.....i hope a free thinking tolerant atmosphere wud develop in our community too one day
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Here is an English translation (God save me from the wrath of porus) letter written by Hazrat Ali as recorded in the Nahjul Balagha
Lead the Zuhr prayer till the shadow of a wall becomes equal to the height of the wall, the Asr prayers can be performed till the sun is still bright and enough time of the day is left for a person to cover a distance of six miles. The Maghrib prayers should be performed when people break their fasts and when Hajj pilgrims return from Arafat. And the time for Ice prayers is when the red glow of the even twilight disappears from the West, till one-third of the night is still left. The morning prayers are to be performed when there appears enough light of the dawn for a man to recognize the face of his companion.
While leading the prayers make them so short that the weakest among you may not feel tired to follow you and his strength and patience may not be over strained.
http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/letters/ ... m#letter52]http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/letters/ ... m#letter52]http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/letters/ ... m#letter52[/URL][/url]
Disclaimer - This is a translation, so do not believe it. The original may be talking about prayers that are not needed or that it is ok if you don't pray 5 times a day or that each prayer actually refers to the Dai, the hidden Imam, and others.
Lead the Zuhr prayer till the shadow of a wall becomes equal to the height of the wall, the Asr prayers can be performed till the sun is still bright and enough time of the day is left for a person to cover a distance of six miles. The Maghrib prayers should be performed when people break their fasts and when Hajj pilgrims return from Arafat. And the time for Ice prayers is when the red glow of the even twilight disappears from the West, till one-third of the night is still left. The morning prayers are to be performed when there appears enough light of the dawn for a man to recognize the face of his companion.
While leading the prayers make them so short that the weakest among you may not feel tired to follow you and his strength and patience may not be over strained.
http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/letters/ ... m#letter52]http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/letters/ ... m#letter52]http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/letters/ ... m#letter52[/URL][/url]
Disclaimer - This is a translation, so do not believe it. The original may be talking about prayers that are not needed or that it is ok if you don't pray 5 times a day or that each prayer actually refers to the Dai, the hidden Imam, and others.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Anjami
Why you cannot show me the same from Quran where it clearly says that you have to pray 5 times a day because like Gulf, your are an extremist on the Wahabi side who likes to duck the question and divert the topic by calling people names.
JUST LIKE YOUR CO HORT MF DIDNOT REPLY WHY HE DIDNOT CONFRONT BOSTONIAN TO BRING HIM TO RIGHT PATH, LIKE GULF WHO WOULD NOT ANSWER WHY IT IS OK FOR KOTHAR TO HONOR N MODI WHO ACCORDING TO HIM BEND TRUTH.
So you see all of you when can not give answer to the topic, you either hide or divert IN OTHER WORDS COWRDS,COWARDS and COWARDS
Why you cannot show me the same from Quran where it clearly says that you have to pray 5 times a day because like Gulf, your are an extremist on the Wahabi side who likes to duck the question and divert the topic by calling people names.
JUST LIKE YOUR CO HORT MF DIDNOT REPLY WHY HE DIDNOT CONFRONT BOSTONIAN TO BRING HIM TO RIGHT PATH, LIKE GULF WHO WOULD NOT ANSWER WHY IT IS OK FOR KOTHAR TO HONOR N MODI WHO ACCORDING TO HIM BEND TRUTH.
So you see all of you when can not give answer to the topic, you either hide or divert IN OTHER WORDS COWRDS,COWARDS and COWARDS
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accountability
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Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
Porous: am I right in saying, that there isn't one single ayah which says, "read namaz" iqrah salat. Fasting, giving zakat, and jihad ( I believe in arabic, jihad means effort), all are later derivatives.
Prophet never accumulatively collected zakat as a tax. It was abu bakar, who tried to collect as state tax. Prophet did not call all ghizwats jihad. So prophet did not do jihad himself against anyone.
Neihter any of the four caliph did jihad, Umer fought wars, some of them self imposed, like invasion of iran. Ali abetted umer in invasion, by leading the forces against yazd gard.
After abu bakr, none of the three later caliphs tried to collect zakat as state tax. Bani ummayah and banu abbass never imposed zakat as state tax.
Anajmi: there is a universal law, whichever is not forbidden is permitted. The onus of proof is on you to prove, that there is an ayah, which says read namaz, and read it five times. Because you are saying it is in quran, and you follow quran, if you cant prove, there is one ayah, then actually you are not following quran, but only hikayas and mythologies. I did not say, it is forbidden in quran to read namaz, I said, it is not mentioned in quran to read namaz.
Prophet never accumulatively collected zakat as a tax. It was abu bakar, who tried to collect as state tax. Prophet did not call all ghizwats jihad. So prophet did not do jihad himself against anyone.
Neihter any of the four caliph did jihad, Umer fought wars, some of them self imposed, like invasion of iran. Ali abetted umer in invasion, by leading the forces against yazd gard.
After abu bakr, none of the three later caliphs tried to collect zakat as state tax. Bani ummayah and banu abbass never imposed zakat as state tax.
Anajmi: there is a universal law, whichever is not forbidden is permitted. The onus of proof is on you to prove, that there is an ayah, which says read namaz, and read it five times. Because you are saying it is in quran, and you follow quran, if you cant prove, there is one ayah, then actually you are not following quran, but only hikayas and mythologies. I did not say, it is forbidden in quran to read namaz, I said, it is not mentioned in quran to read namaz.
Re: Mullahs on the Mainframe.
omabharti,
Please shut your stupid mouth. If the quran does not say pray 5 times a day then don't. Why do you waste your time 5 times a day like a stupid idiot?
The quran does not say pray 5 times a day. The quran gives distinct times to pray in, but there is some dispute amongst scholars on whether it shows 4 different times or 5. In these cases you go to hadith or the sunnah of the prophet. But as I said before, you are too stupid to figure that out.
accty,
As I said before, only an idiot would keep doing that which is not needed 5 times a day everyday. If you think namaz is not needed then stop doing it.
Please shut your stupid mouth. If the quran does not say pray 5 times a day then don't. Why do you waste your time 5 times a day like a stupid idiot?
The quran does not say pray 5 times a day. The quran gives distinct times to pray in, but there is some dispute amongst scholars on whether it shows 4 different times or 5. In these cases you go to hadith or the sunnah of the prophet. But as I said before, you are too stupid to figure that out.
accty,
As I said before, only an idiot would keep doing that which is not needed 5 times a day everyday. If you think namaz is not needed then stop doing it.