We are here to speak about the facts behind the dictator ship of the so called syedna, but i have noticed for the past couple of years that our reforms are not active, most of the people in our community knows that syedna and his crew making fool of us but nobody publicily criticised his policies except one or two people like Asghar Ali Engineer.Peoples are afraid of them.
In my opinion our reforms should be make in such a manner that world should know all about us, we can use Radio, TV, Internet, Newspapers and othe media.But now the question arises who is going to make the first blood ? I put this question in this forum , , can people give any suggestion in this forum ?
Reform is not active
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serendipity
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:01 am
Re: Reform is not active
Dear MH, clarify please....Are you merely interested in "winning a battle" to prove that you're right, or genuinely offering people a vision for the future based on strong BELIEF? (In case you haven't grasped it, people have had their FILL of corruption. What they yearn for is a genuine vision.) So the only thing that has REALLY plagued the progressive position so far is short-sightedness; by which I mean an INABILITY to think outside the BOX! If Syedna hasn't proven to anyone that he really "speaks for the Imam", there may be a good REASON for this! Why not try to discover it, and perhaps in the process RECLAIM your heritage? Then you will find people waiting to hear from you...like right here in florida. (ARE THERE any progressives here??) But if you just want to "whine and kvetch", fold your tents and go home...nobody's interested. There's enough of that to go around ALREADY!
Re: Reform is not active
Serendipity,Originally posted by serendipity:
(.... What they yearn for is a genuine vision.) So the only thing that has REALLY plagued the progressive position so far is short-sightedness; by which I mean an INABILITY to think outside the BOX!
Please explain what you mean by this.
Re: Reform is not active
Serendipity,If Syedna hasn't proven to anyone that he really "speaks for the Imam", there may be a good REASON for this
Please also explain this. Give me the good REASON and I won't ask for proof.
Don't give me the good REASON and don't give me the proof and I am the fool for believing what you have to say, not you cause you have actually fooled me.
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serendipity
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:01 am
Re: Reform is not active
Serendipity,
Please explain what you mean by this: "(What they yearn for is a genuine vision.) So the only thing that has REALLY plagued the progressive position so far is short-sightedness; by which I mean an INABILITY to think outside the BOX!"
Dear Humnsafar,
I am just reiterating my belief that the ONLY hope for progressives (and bohras in general) is to move "past the crap" that is miring or bogging down the community, due in large part to official control and money schemes. How to do it? The only way to "beat them" is move the game onto a new gameboard (and I am just using that as an ANALOGY....personally I believe the stakes are much too SERIOUS to be "playing games"). So in a word, I believe that the progressive intellect must engage with a LARGER community outside the "trap" of ethnic boundaries. CONTROL freaks, i.e. existing hierarchy, can only "spring" their trap on those who are stuck inside it! Whereas the whole philosophy of Ismailism is DYNAMIC enough to address the spiritual needs of many OTHER people if given a chance! (The early history of the Dawat gives us PROOF of that.) One more analogy just to illustrate my point....st. paul of the early christians went OUTSIDE the ruling hierarchy of the ethnic jewish church to spread the gospel, precisely because it was subjected to too much control and was becoming a dead end. Everybody knows that he re-established a mission that was STRONG enough for "ethnic" christians to join together with non-ethnic christians.
Please explain what you mean by this: "(What they yearn for is a genuine vision.) So the only thing that has REALLY plagued the progressive position so far is short-sightedness; by which I mean an INABILITY to think outside the BOX!"
Dear Humnsafar,
I am just reiterating my belief that the ONLY hope for progressives (and bohras in general) is to move "past the crap" that is miring or bogging down the community, due in large part to official control and money schemes. How to do it? The only way to "beat them" is move the game onto a new gameboard (and I am just using that as an ANALOGY....personally I believe the stakes are much too SERIOUS to be "playing games"). So in a word, I believe that the progressive intellect must engage with a LARGER community outside the "trap" of ethnic boundaries. CONTROL freaks, i.e. existing hierarchy, can only "spring" their trap on those who are stuck inside it! Whereas the whole philosophy of Ismailism is DYNAMIC enough to address the spiritual needs of many OTHER people if given a chance! (The early history of the Dawat gives us PROOF of that.) One more analogy just to illustrate my point....st. paul of the early christians went OUTSIDE the ruling hierarchy of the ethnic jewish church to spread the gospel, precisely because it was subjected to too much control and was becoming a dead end. Everybody knows that he re-established a mission that was STRONG enough for "ethnic" christians to join together with non-ethnic christians.
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serendipity
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:01 am
Re: Reform is not active
(Re: If Syedna hasn't proven to anyone that he really "speaks for the Imam", there may be a good REASON for this.)
anajmi asked me, Serendipity please also explain this.
Although I admit that the following article is a bit "old", it expresses my sentiments on this subject very nicely (with just the right dash of humor I might add)!
INSIGHT THE BOHRA CHRONICLE AUGUST 2002
Has Sayedna Saheb lost contact with Imam?
Long time no 'nass'
The doctrine of 'Nass' is most important and fundamental according to Shia Ismaili and Bohra faith. According to this doctrine of 'Nass', the incumbent should without any ambiguity, specifically appoint a successor to Imam or Dai to the highest religious office. The doctrine of Nass provides a strong sense of certainty and a sense of being to the followers of the holy family of the Prophet (Ahle-bait). According to faith Nass must be done with intuition from Allah and with consultation of the Imam in existence or Imam in seclusion.
Due to this doctrine in the early period divisions have taken place in the chain of Imams and later in the chain of Dais. Shias were divided in Ismailis, Ishna-Asharis, Nizaris (Agakhanis), Mustalis, Tayyebis, Dawoodi, Sulemanis, Alias etc. This shows the importance of Nass, which should be declared publicly and without ambiguity. And Nass documented like 'Will' and disclosed after the death cannot be accepted. 'Will' is done in the matters of wealth and the property and not in case of appointment of Imam and Dai.
Late Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb was born on Hijri 1305 and Nass was done on him on Hijri 27 Safar, 1333, when he was just 27 years of age. Again Sayedna Mohammed Burhanuddin Saheb was born on Hijri 20th Rabiul Akhar 1333 and Nass was declared on him on 27th Rajab 1352, when he was 20 years of age. It is because these Dais had the controversy that arose after the sudden death of 46th Dai. If Sayedna Burhanuddin Saheb thinks that the Bohras have now forgotten that century old incident he would be greatly mistaken.
Today Sayedna Saheb is 91 years old, all his sons are over 60 years with dazzling white beards. His sons have sons and grand sons but Sayedna Saheb just does not utter a word about Nass. Nass must be done in consultation with the Imam in existence or Imam in seclusion.
It seems Sayedna Saheb has lost contact with Imamuz-Zaman? Sayedna Burhanuddin Saheb was born in Surat. As soon as Late Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb took hold of Sir Admji Peerbhoy's resident 'Peerbhoy Palace' at Malbar Hills, Bombay in 1351 Hijri and gave it the name of 'Saifee Mahal', he shifted the seat of Dawat from Surat to the commercial city Bombay. And next year in 1352 Hijri Nass was proclaimed on Burhanuddin Saheb.
When Nass was declared on Taher Saifuddin Saheb and then on Burhanuddin Saheb there were no heaps of wealth, no luxury of palaces and no chartered air travel. Neither Sayedna had such a large family and an uncontrollable army of greedy Amils. Nor there were construction activities at this scale in the name of renovations of mosques and mausoleums, which has become a boon for Sayedna's family, Amils and opportunist Jamat members to fill their coffers. Today there are hundreds of people whose vested interests are tied with Sayedna.
Where there is so much malpractice and fraud, so much corruption and exploitation, how can Imam keep any connection with such infidels?
anajmi asked me, Serendipity please also explain this.
Although I admit that the following article is a bit "old", it expresses my sentiments on this subject very nicely (with just the right dash of humor I might add)!
INSIGHT THE BOHRA CHRONICLE AUGUST 2002
Has Sayedna Saheb lost contact with Imam?
Long time no 'nass'
The doctrine of 'Nass' is most important and fundamental according to Shia Ismaili and Bohra faith. According to this doctrine of 'Nass', the incumbent should without any ambiguity, specifically appoint a successor to Imam or Dai to the highest religious office. The doctrine of Nass provides a strong sense of certainty and a sense of being to the followers of the holy family of the Prophet (Ahle-bait). According to faith Nass must be done with intuition from Allah and with consultation of the Imam in existence or Imam in seclusion.
Due to this doctrine in the early period divisions have taken place in the chain of Imams and later in the chain of Dais. Shias were divided in Ismailis, Ishna-Asharis, Nizaris (Agakhanis), Mustalis, Tayyebis, Dawoodi, Sulemanis, Alias etc. This shows the importance of Nass, which should be declared publicly and without ambiguity. And Nass documented like 'Will' and disclosed after the death cannot be accepted. 'Will' is done in the matters of wealth and the property and not in case of appointment of Imam and Dai.
Late Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb was born on Hijri 1305 and Nass was done on him on Hijri 27 Safar, 1333, when he was just 27 years of age. Again Sayedna Mohammed Burhanuddin Saheb was born on Hijri 20th Rabiul Akhar 1333 and Nass was declared on him on 27th Rajab 1352, when he was 20 years of age. It is because these Dais had the controversy that arose after the sudden death of 46th Dai. If Sayedna Burhanuddin Saheb thinks that the Bohras have now forgotten that century old incident he would be greatly mistaken.
Today Sayedna Saheb is 91 years old, all his sons are over 60 years with dazzling white beards. His sons have sons and grand sons but Sayedna Saheb just does not utter a word about Nass. Nass must be done in consultation with the Imam in existence or Imam in seclusion.
It seems Sayedna Saheb has lost contact with Imamuz-Zaman? Sayedna Burhanuddin Saheb was born in Surat. As soon as Late Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb took hold of Sir Admji Peerbhoy's resident 'Peerbhoy Palace' at Malbar Hills, Bombay in 1351 Hijri and gave it the name of 'Saifee Mahal', he shifted the seat of Dawat from Surat to the commercial city Bombay. And next year in 1352 Hijri Nass was proclaimed on Burhanuddin Saheb.
When Nass was declared on Taher Saifuddin Saheb and then on Burhanuddin Saheb there were no heaps of wealth, no luxury of palaces and no chartered air travel. Neither Sayedna had such a large family and an uncontrollable army of greedy Amils. Nor there were construction activities at this scale in the name of renovations of mosques and mausoleums, which has become a boon for Sayedna's family, Amils and opportunist Jamat members to fill their coffers. Today there are hundreds of people whose vested interests are tied with Sayedna.
Where there is so much malpractice and fraud, so much corruption and exploitation, how can Imam keep any connection with such infidels?
Re: Reform is not active
I would remind those that follow Fatimi history, as I try to, that the Imams is satrs of Salamiyah were far richer in material wealth than any of the Fatimi Imams. Where did they get their wealth...from various Dais collecting it and bringing it to the Imams in secret.
Serendipity point to Humsafar is geniune, but has one small and significant flaw. To reach the Imam in Satr you must adhere to his Hujjat...which for the Dawat is the Dai. Now if your intention is to propagate and act independantally without actually criticizing the Dawat...then you have a method. When you critcize the Dawat, which the progressives state, then your shooting yourself in the foot. It hard to promote a way of belief when you don't want to acknowledge the current representative of it.
Serendipity point to Humsafar is geniune, but has one small and significant flaw. To reach the Imam in Satr you must adhere to his Hujjat...which for the Dawat is the Dai. Now if your intention is to propagate and act independantally without actually criticizing the Dawat...then you have a method. When you critcize the Dawat, which the progressives state, then your shooting yourself in the foot. It hard to promote a way of belief when you don't want to acknowledge the current representative of it.
Re: Reform is not active
Hur,
You are unnecessarily complicated the things. Islam is simple and easy to follow. You made it Imam, Hazir, Satr, Dai and Dawat, Hujjat, Taweel etc etc... it is not like that. If there is any Imam, let him come out or let Dai explain clearly why not... when will be the right time. We are a part of a community (right or wrong), its like a home, IF i have some reservations about my home, i have a right to speak ... so i m i stopped. We are critcizing coz there are things too...!!! critcize. IF i take ur argument, to beleive in Hujjat, then Hujjat tells me 'u have give Missaq that u will accept and adhere to what Dai say withOUT questions' - so what should i do...??!!!
You are unnecessarily complicated the things. Islam is simple and easy to follow. You made it Imam, Hazir, Satr, Dai and Dawat, Hujjat, Taweel etc etc... it is not like that. If there is any Imam, let him come out or let Dai explain clearly why not... when will be the right time. We are a part of a community (right or wrong), its like a home, IF i have some reservations about my home, i have a right to speak ... so i m i stopped. We are critcizing coz there are things too...!!! critcize. IF i take ur argument, to beleive in Hujjat, then Hujjat tells me 'u have give Missaq that u will accept and adhere to what Dai say withOUT questions' - so what should i do...??!!!
Re: Reform is not active
SFA,
the basic beliefs of Islam are simple and easy to follow once they are outlined for YOU. And if you are willing to accept these at face value...then your life in regards to your faith and community will be very simple and easy.
This is the stance that a majority of bohras, and for that matter shiahs, take to regarding the application and understanding of their faith. They practice and follow the precepts and learn the short forms of reasoning they need to absorb it..and that's the end of it. This is the role described as a "mustajib" and there is nothing wrong with this.
It is when you want to fully understand the origins of the belief structure that things get complicated. And then the things you don't want to acknowledge come very much into the mix. The position of the Imam is central to Islam...and to deny this is not acknowledge the Quran or the Prophet.
The problem occurs when the "mustajib" want to argue and criticize the "belief structure"...without learning the background of it.
The Dawat is not like a home that you can criticize without proper understanding of it. Actually, even in a home, one cannot just criticize...a child would be reprimand by the father or mother is he/she demanded not to do a chore for them. The reprimand is because the child doesn't understand the reasoning for the chore (responsibility, communality, etc).
Also, if you accept totally the Quran...than you have accepted the bohra misaq; every provision in the misaq is in the Quran.
the basic beliefs of Islam are simple and easy to follow once they are outlined for YOU. And if you are willing to accept these at face value...then your life in regards to your faith and community will be very simple and easy.
This is the stance that a majority of bohras, and for that matter shiahs, take to regarding the application and understanding of their faith. They practice and follow the precepts and learn the short forms of reasoning they need to absorb it..and that's the end of it. This is the role described as a "mustajib" and there is nothing wrong with this.
It is when you want to fully understand the origins of the belief structure that things get complicated. And then the things you don't want to acknowledge come very much into the mix. The position of the Imam is central to Islam...and to deny this is not acknowledge the Quran or the Prophet.
The problem occurs when the "mustajib" want to argue and criticize the "belief structure"...without learning the background of it.
The Dawat is not like a home that you can criticize without proper understanding of it. Actually, even in a home, one cannot just criticize...a child would be reprimand by the father or mother is he/she demanded not to do a chore for them. The reprimand is because the child doesn't understand the reasoning for the chore (responsibility, communality, etc).
Also, if you accept totally the Quran...than you have accepted the bohra misaq; every provision in the misaq is in the Quran.
Re: Reform is not active
Actually, no. A Dai is a representative of the Imam to the extent that he acts in accordance with his instruction. A Dai unlike an Imam is fallible. The moment the Dai falls out of line, they are subject to discipline, as in the case of Dai Abdullah Al-Shii during Al-Mahdi's time or Dai Al-Fariqi during Al-Hakim's time.Originally posted by hur:
I would remind those that follow Fatimi history, as I try to, that the Imams is satrs of Salamiyah were far richer in material wealth than any of the Fatimi Imams. Where did they get their wealth...from various Dais collecting it and bringing it to the Imams in secret.
Serendipity point to Humsafar is geniune, but has one small and significant flaw. To reach the Imam in Satr you must adhere to his Hujjat...which for the Dawat is the Dai. Now if your intention is to propagate and act independantally without actually criticizing the Dawat...then you have a method. When you critcize the Dawat, which the progressives state, then your shooting yourself in the foot. It hard to promote a way of belief when you don't want to acknowledge the current representative of it.
When you critcize the Dawat, which the progressives state, then your shooting yourself in the foot.
If you consider Dawah to mean Dai and his family business, then yes, it should be criticized when appropriate.
If you consider Dawah to mean the Fatimi mission based on the principles of Islam.. well that doesn't exist anymore.
It hard to promote a way of belief when you don't want to acknowledge the current representative of it.
Right. And you need to realize who that representative is. Not the Dai, but the Imam. It is the Imam of whom you say "zamin pur hazir che" but who is taken as a hidden, nameless, faceless scapegoat for every act of corruption perpetrated by the Dai. Is the bad enough that it is encouraged to pledge blind obedience to a corrupt Dai, but its worse that his corruption is associated with the Imam and therefore ultimately God and the Prophet.
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Africawala
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:01 am
Re: Reform is not active
I agree totally with Muslim's response, especially, "Right. And you need to realize who that representative is. Not the Dai, but the Imam. It is the Imam of whom you say "zamin pur hazir che" but who is taken as a hidden, nameless, faceless scapegoat for every act of corruption perpetrated by the Dai. Is the bad enough that it is encouraged to pledge blind obedience to a corrupt Dai, but its worse that his corruption is associated with the Imam and therefore ultimately God and the Prophet."
I have a question for serendipity or whosoever can answer it:
Serendipity says:As soon as Late Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb took hold of Sir Admji Peerbhoy's resident 'Peerbhoy Palace' at Malbar Hills, Bombay in 1351 Hijri and gave it the name of 'Saifee Mahal'..."
Why did the late sayedna take Peerbhoy's palace? Was it done by force. I have heard Peerbhoy's name but when I ask questions about it, my family says" He was a very bad person". That is all. No explanations. Please tell me about this man.
I have a question for serendipity or whosoever can answer it:
Serendipity says:As soon as Late Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb took hold of Sir Admji Peerbhoy's resident 'Peerbhoy Palace' at Malbar Hills, Bombay in 1351 Hijri and gave it the name of 'Saifee Mahal'..."
Why did the late sayedna take Peerbhoy's palace? Was it done by force. I have heard Peerbhoy's name but when I ask questions about it, my family says" He was a very bad person". That is all. No explanations. Please tell me about this man.
Re: Reform is not active
Muslim,
"Actually, no. A Dai is a representative of the Imam to the extent that he acts in accordance with his instruction. A Dai unlike an Imam is fallible. The moment the Dai falls out of line, they are subject to discipline, as in the case of Dai Abdullah Al-Shii during Al-Mahdi's time or Dai Al-Fariqi during Al-Hakim's time."
---This is totally correct. But the key in your response is Imam al'Mahdi and Hakim are the ones giving the verdict...not the laymen...as is the case of the progressives or others.
"If you consider Dawah to mean Dai and his family business, then yes, it should be criticized when appropriate."
--see response above.
"Right. And you need to realize who that representative is. Not the Dai, but the Imam. It is the Imam of whom you say "zamin pur hazir che" but who is taken as a hidden, nameless, faceless scapegoat for every act of corruption perpetrated by the Dai. Is the bad enough that it is encouraged to pledge blind obedience to a corrupt Dai, but its worse that his corruption is associated with the Imam and therefore ultimately God and the Prophet."
--In the place of the Imam in satr...the representative of the Imam is the Hujjah...which according to Dawat doctrine (doctrines established by the Imam Jafar Sadiq to Imam Qaim). This representative acts in the name of the Imam place...with its full authority.
It is not my place to call something corrupt or not. My opinion is based on the my limit knowledge and the info. I gather. If my knowledge is limited and info gathered is limited, than I may not understand or be able to understand the overall scheme of things. Even in the case you referenced about Dai Abdullah Shii...he nor those that followed him as a guide did not understand the Imam's decision. Many revolted against the Imam.
"Actually, no. A Dai is a representative of the Imam to the extent that he acts in accordance with his instruction. A Dai unlike an Imam is fallible. The moment the Dai falls out of line, they are subject to discipline, as in the case of Dai Abdullah Al-Shii during Al-Mahdi's time or Dai Al-Fariqi during Al-Hakim's time."
---This is totally correct. But the key in your response is Imam al'Mahdi and Hakim are the ones giving the verdict...not the laymen...as is the case of the progressives or others.
"If you consider Dawah to mean Dai and his family business, then yes, it should be criticized when appropriate."
--see response above.
"Right. And you need to realize who that representative is. Not the Dai, but the Imam. It is the Imam of whom you say "zamin pur hazir che" but who is taken as a hidden, nameless, faceless scapegoat for every act of corruption perpetrated by the Dai. Is the bad enough that it is encouraged to pledge blind obedience to a corrupt Dai, but its worse that his corruption is associated with the Imam and therefore ultimately God and the Prophet."
--In the place of the Imam in satr...the representative of the Imam is the Hujjah...which according to Dawat doctrine (doctrines established by the Imam Jafar Sadiq to Imam Qaim). This representative acts in the name of the Imam place...with its full authority.
It is not my place to call something corrupt or not. My opinion is based on the my limit knowledge and the info. I gather. If my knowledge is limited and info gathered is limited, than I may not understand or be able to understand the overall scheme of things. Even in the case you referenced about Dai Abdullah Shii...he nor those that followed him as a guide did not understand the Imam's decision. Many revolted against the Imam.
Re: Reform is not active
serendipity,
That actually makes it very clear why everything is so unclear!!Due to this doctrine in the early period divisions have taken place in the chain of Imams and later in the chain of Dais. Shias were divided in Ismailis, Ishna-Asharis, Nizaris (Agakhanis), Mustalis, Tayyebis, Dawoodi, Sulemanis, Alias etc. This shows the importance of Nass, which should be declared publicly and without ambiguity. And Nass documented like 'Will' and disclosed after the death cannot be accepted. 'Will' is done in the matters of wealth and the property and not in case of appointment of Imam and Dai.
Re: Reform is not active
Serendipity,
The idea of looking beyond the 'ethnic' bounds and engaging the intellect of the 'larger' community sounds very nice but rather vague, and in my personal opinion, very airy-fairy. You are not the first one to propose this - and this is not the first time I'm taking issue with it. So, here i go again. Please understand that progressive bohras are dealing with real issues affecting real people. The bohra clergy (which courtiers like Hur defend as the dawat) has imposed a corrupt and coercive system (which people like you pooh-pooh as 'traps') on the community. Do you have any idea how common bohras live and how they have to deal with the agents of the clergy on a daily basis? For all practical purposes the Bohras have been reduced to a cult and its members to subhuman zombies - no respect, no dignity, no freedom of thought or conscience - being herded around like sheep and bilked for whatever they are worth. The community is crying out for reform - on practical, social, human matters. It's a duty and obligation of every right thinking Bohra (not just the progressives) to address these issues first and then look beyond the "ethnic traps".
To give a crude analogy, when your house is on fire with people inside it, what is one supposed to do? Try to put out the fire and save your people or point to other fires in the neighbourhood and say let's do something about them? You seem to be saying forget your house save the whole neighbourhood. Progressives are saying, yes we will save the neighbourhood, but let's go one step at a time - put out one fire at a time. Because that's all we can do given your limited resources.
But let the analogy end there. Progressive are not just engaged in putting out the fire. We have a vision to rebuild the house - look at the reformists jamaats around the world and you'll see our vision in practice. Sure enough, not everything is perfect but at least we live like human beings - and that saying a lot under the circumstances.
Let me also add that progressives who are always tying to reach out to other communities - Muslims and non-Muslims to forge common bonds and build bridges. The idea is not only reform the community but also to liberate it from its incestuous little ghetto where religion, faith, spirituality and fine human material are being prostituted for the benefit of a ridiculous "royal family".
The idea of looking beyond the 'ethnic' bounds and engaging the intellect of the 'larger' community sounds very nice but rather vague, and in my personal opinion, very airy-fairy. You are not the first one to propose this - and this is not the first time I'm taking issue with it. So, here i go again. Please understand that progressive bohras are dealing with real issues affecting real people. The bohra clergy (which courtiers like Hur defend as the dawat) has imposed a corrupt and coercive system (which people like you pooh-pooh as 'traps') on the community. Do you have any idea how common bohras live and how they have to deal with the agents of the clergy on a daily basis? For all practical purposes the Bohras have been reduced to a cult and its members to subhuman zombies - no respect, no dignity, no freedom of thought or conscience - being herded around like sheep and bilked for whatever they are worth. The community is crying out for reform - on practical, social, human matters. It's a duty and obligation of every right thinking Bohra (not just the progressives) to address these issues first and then look beyond the "ethnic traps".
To give a crude analogy, when your house is on fire with people inside it, what is one supposed to do? Try to put out the fire and save your people or point to other fires in the neighbourhood and say let's do something about them? You seem to be saying forget your house save the whole neighbourhood. Progressives are saying, yes we will save the neighbourhood, but let's go one step at a time - put out one fire at a time. Because that's all we can do given your limited resources.
But let the analogy end there. Progressive are not just engaged in putting out the fire. We have a vision to rebuild the house - look at the reformists jamaats around the world and you'll see our vision in practice. Sure enough, not everything is perfect but at least we live like human beings - and that saying a lot under the circumstances.
Let me also add that progressives who are always tying to reach out to other communities - Muslims and non-Muslims to forge common bonds and build bridges. The idea is not only reform the community but also to liberate it from its incestuous little ghetto where religion, faith, spirituality and fine human material are being prostituted for the benefit of a ridiculous "royal family".
Re: Reform is not active
Humsafar and Anajmi,
Good analysis.
Where is our friend Average Bohra..??!!!
Mr. Hur...
U are trying to justify an unjust cause..... today there is nothing such as Dawat or Imam, what we are dealing with is cult which is ruining life of may be million Bohras....!!! This so called Daism has to end, sooner the better ..... OR mark my words .... since this Dai is 4th in succession (father, son).... and after him too, his son is gonna come, the long term planning is to declare one Dai as Imam. End of story - they will declare that Taher Saifuddin's father was Imam and Dai and since then it has 'merged' and so there was a succession and when the 'time was appropriate' they declared that. That is the reason why all this hype about Moharram and Mattam - that is the reason they have made matam mandatory after all Farz namaz ..... they are pushing the ideas to common Bohras......!!!!!
Good analysis.
Where is our friend Average Bohra..??!!!
Mr. Hur...
U are trying to justify an unjust cause..... today there is nothing such as Dawat or Imam, what we are dealing with is cult which is ruining life of may be million Bohras....!!! This so called Daism has to end, sooner the better ..... OR mark my words .... since this Dai is 4th in succession (father, son).... and after him too, his son is gonna come, the long term planning is to declare one Dai as Imam. End of story - they will declare that Taher Saifuddin's father was Imam and Dai and since then it has 'merged' and so there was a succession and when the 'time was appropriate' they declared that. That is the reason why all this hype about Moharram and Mattam - that is the reason they have made matam mandatory after all Farz namaz ..... they are pushing the ideas to common Bohras......!!!!!
Re: Reform is not active
Hur,
It is difficult to decide whether you're fooling us or yourself. And it is difficult to determine whether you are behaving like an ostrich (head in the sand) or like the three monkeys (see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil) or both.
What you call "limited knowledge and info" is in our eyes moral paralysis. If you care to find out and have the ability/willingness to see beyond you received religious instructions there's plenty you can know about the corruption of the clergy. Please stop hiding behind the intricacies of faith - the brahmins and the church and mullahs have been doing it for a long time - and your masters are no different.
Tell us, what great religious or esoteric purpose is being served by the way our community is being run? Extortions, jamans, matams, the sayedna behaving like a pied piper and enslaved bohras running after him around the globe - why, what for? What spiritual redemption is there in these ostentatious tamashas? The ridiculous 'royal family' behaves as if it out on a permanent picnic - what possibly can be holy, pious and enlightening in that? What is Dai's contribution to larger islamic thought and practice? You talk about lay progressives and remind them of their responsibility (as children) to the community, but when was the last time the sayedna behaved like a father? What father would ignore his children dying in earthquake and riots (Gujarat) and carry on with his tamashas? This is just one example. You will find many if you only tried.
Relationships within a home are based on mutual respect, love, understating, justice and a give-and-take. Do you see any of this in the Bohra Family? All you have is a patriarchal, insensitive, unapproachable, authoritarian Parent making life hell for his children. Is there any love, respect, understanding in this relationship? All there is take take, grab grab and no 'give'.
Is it so difficult for you to understand that all this talk about Imam, Hujjah, satr etc. is meaningless where there is no justice, no respect, no human dignity?
It is difficult to decide whether you're fooling us or yourself. And it is difficult to determine whether you are behaving like an ostrich (head in the sand) or like the three monkeys (see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil) or both.
What you call "limited knowledge and info" is in our eyes moral paralysis. If you care to find out and have the ability/willingness to see beyond you received religious instructions there's plenty you can know about the corruption of the clergy. Please stop hiding behind the intricacies of faith - the brahmins and the church and mullahs have been doing it for a long time - and your masters are no different.
Tell us, what great religious or esoteric purpose is being served by the way our community is being run? Extortions, jamans, matams, the sayedna behaving like a pied piper and enslaved bohras running after him around the globe - why, what for? What spiritual redemption is there in these ostentatious tamashas? The ridiculous 'royal family' behaves as if it out on a permanent picnic - what possibly can be holy, pious and enlightening in that? What is Dai's contribution to larger islamic thought and practice? You talk about lay progressives and remind them of their responsibility (as children) to the community, but when was the last time the sayedna behaved like a father? What father would ignore his children dying in earthquake and riots (Gujarat) and carry on with his tamashas? This is just one example. You will find many if you only tried.
Relationships within a home are based on mutual respect, love, understating, justice and a give-and-take. Do you see any of this in the Bohra Family? All you have is a patriarchal, insensitive, unapproachable, authoritarian Parent making life hell for his children. Is there any love, respect, understanding in this relationship? All there is take take, grab grab and no 'give'.
Is it so difficult for you to understand that all this talk about Imam, Hujjah, satr etc. is meaningless where there is no justice, no respect, no human dignity?
Re: Reform is not active
MH,
Sorry your original message got lost in these side issues. Frankly, I do not understand what is it that you're after. Could pls explain again - in plain english.
Thanks
Sorry your original message got lost in these side issues. Frankly, I do not understand what is it that you're after. Could pls explain again - in plain english.
Thanks
Re: Reform is not active
Humsafar,
I thought it was evident in my response, but I guess not...I am not a bohra..but a follower of the Imams of Ahlul Bayt. I acknowledge the rights of the Fatimi Imams and this is where I pull the basis of my belief. So when I was writing..I was from the outside looking in.
I am very aware of the tyranny of some of the mullahs...I am also aware of the laziness of the laymen to first acknowledge their own religious belief and use it to "fight back".
What you call extort of zakat and khums by the amils...would, whether you like it or not, be forced by the amils of the Imam if he were present. But the injustices you refer to by opportunistic clerics is majority the fault of the laymen not doing anything and accepting it, and murmuring about under their breath. And in relation to accusations against the Dai as being corrupt...what if this were being done by the Imam? Would you argue in the same fashion? It would be hypocritical if you didn't. Is not the Dai in the same spirtual position as your hidden Imam? This is regardless of your opinion of the actions taken by the Dai. I am not saying this to defend the Dai or his action...I am saying this to remind you of the position you are desacrating by your words. If the Dai is doing it..it is to his own demise...but you are not in the position of making that decision.
It saddens a fellow shiah for you to consider doing matam, feeding others, etc. a form of "burden" for you. Whether the laymen understand the significance of the action or not...at least you shouldn't mock.
I thought it was evident in my response, but I guess not...I am not a bohra..but a follower of the Imams of Ahlul Bayt. I acknowledge the rights of the Fatimi Imams and this is where I pull the basis of my belief. So when I was writing..I was from the outside looking in.
I am very aware of the tyranny of some of the mullahs...I am also aware of the laziness of the laymen to first acknowledge their own religious belief and use it to "fight back".
What you call extort of zakat and khums by the amils...would, whether you like it or not, be forced by the amils of the Imam if he were present. But the injustices you refer to by opportunistic clerics is majority the fault of the laymen not doing anything and accepting it, and murmuring about under their breath. And in relation to accusations against the Dai as being corrupt...what if this were being done by the Imam? Would you argue in the same fashion? It would be hypocritical if you didn't. Is not the Dai in the same spirtual position as your hidden Imam? This is regardless of your opinion of the actions taken by the Dai. I am not saying this to defend the Dai or his action...I am saying this to remind you of the position you are desacrating by your words. If the Dai is doing it..it is to his own demise...but you are not in the position of making that decision.
It saddens a fellow shiah for you to consider doing matam, feeding others, etc. a form of "burden" for you. Whether the laymen understand the significance of the action or not...at least you shouldn't mock.
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serendipity
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:01 am
Re: Reform is not active
Re: Humsafar's statement "Try to put out the fire and save your own people...." I'm sorry problems or NOT(!) that sounds TOO durn much like the amil of tampa jamaat, who also said to me "Can't be bothered with you now. Have to take care of our own people!"
Of COURSE I'm not saying "FORGET your house"! But aren't you & the syednists EQUALLY PRESUMPTUOUS to think you "own" it and that it's YOUR concern alone? I just "happen" to have the Quran with me!
Of COURSE I'm not saying "FORGET your house"! But aren't you & the syednists EQUALLY PRESUMPTUOUS to think you "own" it and that it's YOUR concern alone? I just "happen" to have the Quran with me!
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serendipity
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:01 am
Re: Reform is not active
Dear Africawala,
Re: I have a question for serendipity or whosoever can answer it:
"Why did the late sayedna take Peerbhoy's palace? Was it done by force. I have heard Peerbhoy's name but when I ask questions about it my family says, He was a very bad person."
Hmmmmmmm. I'm dying to know the details of that MYSELF! Who can help us?
Re: I have a question for serendipity or whosoever can answer it:
"Why did the late sayedna take Peerbhoy's palace? Was it done by force. I have heard Peerbhoy's name but when I ask questions about it my family says, He was a very bad person."
Hmmmmmmm. I'm dying to know the details of that MYSELF! Who can help us?
Re: Reform is not active
Serendipity,
Your cryptic, smart-alecky response is of no help. The progressive movement is addressing the concrete needs of the community - don't burden it with the onus of saving the Muslim nation, or for that matter, the whole humanity.
Your cryptic, smart-alecky response is of no help. The progressive movement is addressing the concrete needs of the community - don't burden it with the onus of saving the Muslim nation, or for that matter, the whole humanity.
Re: Reform is not active
Hur,
sorry i had no idea you were not a bohra. My god you are not even a bohra and you can still find it in yourself to defend the Dai and his jing bang. You must be a special breed, indeed. Keep you justificationis to yourself - esoteric sfuff is good for epicureans and lotus-eaters. Our struggle is for dignity and respect, which you may not understand.
sorry i had no idea you were not a bohra. My god you are not even a bohra and you can still find it in yourself to defend the Dai and his jing bang. You must be a special breed, indeed. Keep you justificationis to yourself - esoteric sfuff is good for epicureans and lotus-eaters. Our struggle is for dignity and respect, which you may not understand.
Re: Reform is not active
Humsafar,
While not a bohra, I do honor the Fatimi Imams...which would include the hidden Imam. Therefore the position of the Dai is still important to me.
What I wrote has nothing to do with esoteric but the plain knowledge and understanding of what your promoting verses understanding.
Your response is one who cares little for the Imam who is guidance of your faith, whom you randomly reference as a justification to degrad his Dai with.
Reform is not active...because its spirit is not recognized and its heart is poisoned with contempt.
While not a bohra, I do honor the Fatimi Imams...which would include the hidden Imam. Therefore the position of the Dai is still important to me.
What I wrote has nothing to do with esoteric but the plain knowledge and understanding of what your promoting verses understanding.
Your response is one who cares little for the Imam who is guidance of your faith, whom you randomly reference as a justification to degrad his Dai with.
Reform is not active...because its spirit is not recognized and its heart is poisoned with contempt.
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Africawala
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:01 am
Re: Reform is not active
Dear Hur,
Stop pretending you are not a bohora. No non-bohora would defend this dai as you have done. Why are you distancing yourself from this cult? Is it because you are ashamed of HIM after learning from the Progressives?
Hur
And in relation to accusations against the Dai as being corrupt...what if this were being done by the Imam?
My response:
No Imam in the history has done this and if He were present, He would not do it either so do not compare the dai to the Imam. Imams are infallible, your dai is not even if he says so.
Stop pretending you are not a bohora. No non-bohora would defend this dai as you have done. Why are you distancing yourself from this cult? Is it because you are ashamed of HIM after learning from the Progressives?
Hur
And in relation to accusations against the Dai as being corrupt...what if this were being done by the Imam?
My response:
No Imam in the history has done this and if He were present, He would not do it either so do not compare the dai to the Imam. Imams are infallible, your dai is not even if he says so.
Re: Reform is not active
Africawala,
Where have I defended the Dai more than any other Dai. You, who claim to be a bohra wrote "Imams are infallible, your dai is not even if he says so". Your infering that he is not your Dai, though you claim to be a bohra. I am a shiah and honor the Fatimi Imams and their progency.
Unfortunately, the progressives are no more knowledgeable of the beliefs of Imams then the regular bohras. You guys just argue what you don't like..whether correct or not.
"No Imam in the history has done this and if He were present, He would not do it either so do not compare the dai to the Imam."
I did not claim he was the Imam...but he has the authority over the community as the Imam would. There is a hugh difference.
Where have I defended the Dai more than any other Dai. You, who claim to be a bohra wrote "Imams are infallible, your dai is not even if he says so". Your infering that he is not your Dai, though you claim to be a bohra. I am a shiah and honor the Fatimi Imams and their progency.
Unfortunately, the progressives are no more knowledgeable of the beliefs of Imams then the regular bohras. You guys just argue what you don't like..whether correct or not.
"No Imam in the history has done this and if He were present, He would not do it either so do not compare the dai to the Imam."
I did not claim he was the Imam...but he has the authority over the community as the Imam would. There is a hugh difference.
Re: Reform is not active
Br. Hur,
You say, you are not a bohra but a follower of Imams of Ahlebait.. which line of Imams do you follow, the twelver line or the ismaili line?
If you are following the ismaili line then you can be a bohra or Aga khani, but you not any of them, so i suppose you are a twelver shia.
Any twelver will not accept the fatimi imams and if he does so, then he is not following Ithna Asherism..
can you be more clear on what you follow??
You say, you are not a bohra but a follower of Imams of Ahlebait.. which line of Imams do you follow, the twelver line or the ismaili line?
If you are following the ismaili line then you can be a bohra or Aga khani, but you not any of them, so i suppose you are a twelver shia.
Any twelver will not accept the fatimi imams and if he does so, then he is not following Ithna Asherism..
can you be more clear on what you follow??
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serendipity
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:01 am
Re: Reform is not active
Br. Hur we'll wait on your reply to universal. But in the meantime let me say that there is nothing WRONG with an Ismaili extending respect to Ithna Ashari, and vice versa. What happened to the twelver imams during the GENERAL abbasid persecution of the shia may actually have played a ROLE (by Allah's Grace) in the preservation of the Ismaili Imams! So NATURALLY I extend to them my respect. FAR more objectionable is the sort of self-righteous exclusivism and "clubbing together" that tampa amil and br. humsafar have shown me.
Re: Reform is not active
I agree with MH.We are not as active as we used to be.Please understand that we reformist have made some positive changes in our community,so keep it up brothers & sisters.Bravo!
Re: Reform is not active
Serendipity,
You seem to be tripping over your own rhetoric. What "self-righteous exclusivism and 'clubbing-together'" are you talking about? Please explain what do you mean by this. What is that you expect progressives to do to fulfill your pan-shia/pan-ismaili vision? If you have any intellectual honesty then discuss the subject upfront - don't hide behind cryptic remarks and for God's sake don't take sideswipes at me in an unrelated discussion.
You seem to be tripping over your own rhetoric. What "self-righteous exclusivism and 'clubbing-together'" are you talking about? Please explain what do you mean by this. What is that you expect progressives to do to fulfill your pan-shia/pan-ismaili vision? If you have any intellectual honesty then discuss the subject upfront - don't hide behind cryptic remarks and for God's sake don't take sideswipes at me in an unrelated discussion.
Re: Reform is not active
This is totally correct. But the key in your response is Imam al'Mahdi and Hakim are the ones giving the verdict...not the laymen...as is the case of the progressives or others.
It is not a question of verdict, but a question of acknowledging the fact that a Dai is not blame-free. The orthodoxy for obvious reasons are not even prepared to accept this fact.
In the place of the Imam in satr...the representative of the Imam is the Hujjah...which according to Dawat doctrine (doctrines established by the Imam Jafar Sadiq to Imam Qaim). This representative acts in the name of the Imam place...with its full authority.
Hujjah is different from Dai. Dai is a much lower rank. The elaborate hierarchy had not been drawn up until imam hakim's time. A dai cannot have the same authority as Ahlul Bayt who are infallible.
It is not my place to call something corrupt or not. My opinion is based on the my limit knowledge and the info. I gather. If my knowledge is limited and info gathered is limited, than I may not understand or be able to understand the overall scheme of things.
I agree that one should not make a judgement with limited information. However, if you directly experience or witness injustice you have no choice but to take a stand, see Quran 4/135.
What you call extort of zakat and khums by the amils...would, whether you like it or not, be forced by the amils of the Imam if he were present.
Actually, if you read Nahjul Balagha, letter 25 there is a statement by imam ali on zakat collectors: "When you reach a group of people (tribe or village) to assess a tax on them, then stay only at their watering-place (a well or water-hole the most convenient place for stay in desert regions) and do not stay in their houses. Then go to them maintaining your dignity and prestige and when you are in their midst, wish them peace and blessings of Allah and show due respect to them. Tell them that the Caliph of Allah has sent you to collect from them their dues to Allah. Ask them whether they possess enough means to pay the dues of Allah that you may gather them and pass them on to His Caliph. If somebody tells you that he does not possess enough wealth to make him liable to pay taxes then do not worry him and accept his plea. If someone tells you that he is in a position to pay Zakat, then go with him to his house, field or pasture (because Zakat was then collected in coins as well as in kind). But do not frighten him or make him nervous and do not behave with them with undue harshness or tyranny. Then accept the gold or silver which he offers."
Total opposite from how kothar behave!
But the injustices you refer to by opportunistic clerics is majority the fault of the laymen not doing anything and accepting it, and murmuring about under their breath.
That's why the reform movement exists.
And in relation to accusations against the Dai as being corrupt...what if this were being done by the Imam?
Let me ask you a similar question. As an extreme example: if you caught the dai commiting adultery, would you claim some "hikmat" in it and ignore it?
When the Quran calls on people to stand up for justice and to distinguish right from wrong - this is call not just for imams and dais but all of humanity.
If the Dai is doing it..it is to his own demise...but you are not in the position of making that decision.
The problem is what he does affects the whole community, not just him.
It saddens a fellow shiah for you to consider doing matam, feeding others, etc. a form of "burden" for you. Whether the laymen understand the significance of the action or not...at least you shouldn't mock.
I think its important for you to realise exactly what is being objected to. For example matam as weekly ritual frenzy vs genuine reflection of what imam husain died for - i.e. oppression and injustice! It is quite hypocritical when the man who calls himself 'dai of husain' lives a life of yazid.
It is not a question of verdict, but a question of acknowledging the fact that a Dai is not blame-free. The orthodoxy for obvious reasons are not even prepared to accept this fact.
In the place of the Imam in satr...the representative of the Imam is the Hujjah...which according to Dawat doctrine (doctrines established by the Imam Jafar Sadiq to Imam Qaim). This representative acts in the name of the Imam place...with its full authority.
Hujjah is different from Dai. Dai is a much lower rank. The elaborate hierarchy had not been drawn up until imam hakim's time. A dai cannot have the same authority as Ahlul Bayt who are infallible.
It is not my place to call something corrupt or not. My opinion is based on the my limit knowledge and the info. I gather. If my knowledge is limited and info gathered is limited, than I may not understand or be able to understand the overall scheme of things.
I agree that one should not make a judgement with limited information. However, if you directly experience or witness injustice you have no choice but to take a stand, see Quran 4/135.
What you call extort of zakat and khums by the amils...would, whether you like it or not, be forced by the amils of the Imam if he were present.
Actually, if you read Nahjul Balagha, letter 25 there is a statement by imam ali on zakat collectors: "When you reach a group of people (tribe or village) to assess a tax on them, then stay only at their watering-place (a well or water-hole the most convenient place for stay in desert regions) and do not stay in their houses. Then go to them maintaining your dignity and prestige and when you are in their midst, wish them peace and blessings of Allah and show due respect to them. Tell them that the Caliph of Allah has sent you to collect from them their dues to Allah. Ask them whether they possess enough means to pay the dues of Allah that you may gather them and pass them on to His Caliph. If somebody tells you that he does not possess enough wealth to make him liable to pay taxes then do not worry him and accept his plea. If someone tells you that he is in a position to pay Zakat, then go with him to his house, field or pasture (because Zakat was then collected in coins as well as in kind). But do not frighten him or make him nervous and do not behave with them with undue harshness or tyranny. Then accept the gold or silver which he offers."
Total opposite from how kothar behave!
But the injustices you refer to by opportunistic clerics is majority the fault of the laymen not doing anything and accepting it, and murmuring about under their breath.
That's why the reform movement exists.
And in relation to accusations against the Dai as being corrupt...what if this were being done by the Imam?
Let me ask you a similar question. As an extreme example: if you caught the dai commiting adultery, would you claim some "hikmat" in it and ignore it?
When the Quran calls on people to stand up for justice and to distinguish right from wrong - this is call not just for imams and dais but all of humanity.
If the Dai is doing it..it is to his own demise...but you are not in the position of making that decision.
The problem is what he does affects the whole community, not just him.
It saddens a fellow shiah for you to consider doing matam, feeding others, etc. a form of "burden" for you. Whether the laymen understand the significance of the action or not...at least you shouldn't mock.
I think its important for you to realise exactly what is being objected to. For example matam as weekly ritual frenzy vs genuine reflection of what imam husain died for - i.e. oppression and injustice! It is quite hypocritical when the man who calls himself 'dai of husain' lives a life of yazid.