Imam from Seed

Guest · #1

Qiyam,Does it have to be the eldest son or any son? And why can the Imam not be a woman?

Guest · #2

Dear ExMuslim, There are two theories here.Ithna Ashari and Bohras say it can be any son of the previous Imam. Imamate follows in the progency of Adam Nabi.Nizaris...originally believed this as well, but in order to justify their own Imam Nizar..the rule had to establish that it must be the eldest son, Imam Musta'ali being the youngest son (who was supported by both the Qadi al'Qudat and Dai al'Duat). This idea was widely prompted by the backers of Nizar. In this regard, the Nizaris had to disregard the Prophet as an Imam of the Ummah, and making Maulana Ali the true leader of the Ummah..and the Prophet just being a vehicle for the Quran. To this they disregard Imam Hasan as an Imam and go to Imam Husayn..this because no one can disclaim Imam Husayn's or Imam Zaynul Abidin's Imamate. However, this where they fail in their arguement. Imam Husayn was the second son of Maulana Ali. To add, Maulana Ali called the Prophet the best man in the Universe.

Guest · #3

Ex Serves you right for asking the mullah any questions.

Guest · #4

QiyamWhy do you keep lying?Deception #1: Qiyam says Nizaris only believe the Imam can be oldest son? - Since when have we believed this? In fact, the word we use is "male issue, direct or remote." It doesnt matter whether it is an older son or younger son. **The next Imam must be a descendent of the previous Imam** that is our doctrine.Deception #2: Qiyam says Nizaris use the supposed "older son rule" to justify the claims of Imam Nizar. - the older son deception has been cleared above. As for Imam Nizar, the Nizari position is that we was declared successor of Imam Mustansir before the latter's death. Read Farhad Daftari's A Short History of the Ismailis for more on this. It is a fact that Nizar's rights to succession were taken away by the scheming of the Vizier al-Afdal.Pir Hassan and Imam Husayn:It is the Nizari belief that Hassan was the Pir (bearer of the Light of Prophethood) and that Husayn was the Imam (bearer of the Light of Imamat). Sometimes, both positions are manifest in a single person (eg Prophet/Imam Abraham in the past, or the Hazar Imam today who is both Pir and Imam).Eternal Imam Ali and Prophet Muhammad:It is said in the hadith: "O, Muhammad, if not for thy sake, We would not have created this world". This means that all was created and came into existence for his sake. And in another place it is said: "If there was no Ali, We would not have created thee (Muhammad)".

Guest · #5

Dear Nizari (cc Ex Muslim),Why do you keep lying?---I am not lying, but reiterating exact what you have posted.Deception #1 (and #2): Qiyam says Nizaris only believe the Imam can be oldest son?---Actually, I learned this from you. And I said it was a later invention to support the Nizari Imamate..see for yourself:Nizari posted:posted 04-25-2002 06:18 PM ET (US)Mustali had no right to succedd Nizar as the Imam. It was the vizier, Al-Afdal who wanted to seize power and put in Mustali as a puppet to gain control of the Fatimid empire.De Lacy O'Leary writes in "A Short History of the Fatimid Khalifate" (London, 1923, p. 209) that, "At the time, it appears, the court was divided into two factions over the question of the succession, the one party holding to the Khalif's elder son Nizar, the other to a younger son named Musta'li. In one place Nasir-i Khusaro says that the Khalif told him that his elder son Nizar was to be his heir, and the succession of the older son would be in accordance with the doctrines of the sect as already proved by their adherence to Ismail, the son of Jafar as-Sadiq. But Badr and the chief officials were on the side of the younger son Musta'li." ---Note the last part: "..the Khalif told him that his elder son Nizar was to be his heir, and the succession of the older son would be in accordance with the doctrines of the sect as already proved by their adherence to Ismail, the son of Jafar as-Sadiq."Nizari wrote: "Since when have we believed this? In fact, the word we use is "male issue, direct or remote." It doesnt matter whether it is an older son or younger son. **The next Imam must be a descendent of the previous Imam** that is our doctrine."---Firstly, see above. Secondly, the words used..even by your HI is male direct descendant..not remote (that's another add-on)..see below:"The Ismailis gave their allegiance to Imam Jafar as-Sadiq's eldest son Ismail, from whom they derive their name. Throughout their history, the Ismailis have been led by a living, hereditary Imam. They trace the line of Imamat in hereditary succession from Ismail to His Highness the Aga Khan, who is their present, 49th Imam in direct lineal descent from Prophet Muhammad through Ali and Fatima." from http://www.iis.ac.uk/hhak/imamat_intro.htmYou can't be direct lineal descent...if you skip one generation...grandfather to grandson.Nizari wrote: "As for Imam Nizar, the Nizari position is that we was declared successor of Imam Mustansir before the latter's death. Read Farhad Daftari's A Short History of the Ismailis for more on this. It is a fact that Nizar's rights to succession were taken away by the scheming of the Vizier al-Afdal."---This is odd..because on page 193 of Medieaeval Ismaili History and Thought..the same Farhad Daftary writes that there is no Ismaili source written from the claim of Nizar being Imam. In fact, the main support of Nizar, Hasan bin Sabah, is recorded by Ismaili sources as never having met Imam Mustansir. It is via Ibn Athir account that what you quote is from...and Mr. Daftary discounts this recording. Nizari wrote: "Pir Hassan and Imam Husayn:It is the Nizari belief that Hassan was the Pir (bearer of the Light of Prophethood) and that Husayn was the Imam (bearer of the Light of Imamat). Sometimes, both positions are manifest in a single person (eg Prophet/Imam Abraham in the past, or the Hazar Imam today who is both Pir and Imam).---Imamate to Imam Hassan is attested both in the wasiyat of Maulana Ali and by Imam Baqir and Jafar Sadiq via hadiths. Nizari wrote:It is said in the hadith: "O, Muhammad, if not for thy sake, We would not have created this world". This means that all was created and came into existence for his sake. And in another place it is said: "If there was no Ali, We would not have created thee (Muhammad)".---Of the two hadith you quoted..the latter I have never heard..please source it. To add, Allah say in the Quran..that Muhammad (s) was created as a mercy for all the universe...Ali is part of that universe. Ali has said in al'Kafi: that Muhammad was the best man in the Universe...that would include being better than Ali.And need I go back and list the Imam lineage via the recording of Imam Jafar Sadiq again.

Guest · #6

"A Short History of the Fatimid Khalifate" (London, 1923, p. 209) that, "At the time, it appears, the court was divided into two factions over the question of the succession, the one party holding to the Khalif's elder son Nizar, the other to a younger son named Musta'li. In one place Nasir-i Khusaro says that the Khalif told him that his elder son Nizar was to be his heir, and the succession of the older son would be in accordance with the doctrines of the sect as already proved by their adherence to Ismail, the son of Jafar as-Sadiq. But Badr and the chief officials were on the side of the younger son Musta'li." The similarity of the succession of Ismail and Nizar is that both were declared heir-apparents by their predecessors. This was the first and only nass that Ismaili stuck by and that Nizaris also stick by.There is nothing in our official doctrines that says only the oldest son can succeed. Now you are simply lying out of your own ass Qiyam.As for hadiths, there are HARDlY any authentic hadiths. I could quote a thousand hadiths supporting the divinity of Imam Ali, just a you quote a thousand when you constantly claim Muhammad was higher than Ali.Qiyam, you are stuck in your 12th century adoption of 7th century lifestyle.Basically, you are stuck in the past. you are a pure Shariati and will never advance spiritually. you would rather attack the beliefs of other Muslims than try to further your own spiritual progress.A typical agent of the kothar sent here to watch over the progressives and anyone else that opposes the kothar.

Guest · #7

"You can't be direct lineal descent...if you skip one generation...grandfather to grandson." - of course you can. What language to you speak Qiyam?it has been proven and confirmed time and time again that the Aga Khan is the direct lineal descendent of Prophet Muhamamd and Imam Ali.Stop trying to constantly attack our Imam. you are good for nothing. go kiss the feet of dai.

Guest · #8

Butthead,I don't understand what the Kothat has done to the Ismailis that they want to fight the Kothar. It is definitely not for the benefit of the progressives cause I am one and I think Ismailis are despicable.The truth is that you are here to try and justify the convoluted religion that you follow. You need somebody else to have faith in your cult cause you've lost faith in it yourself. Of course this is over your head which is actually stuck in your butt (butthead), so I do not expect you to understand.Of course I would expect you to quote the famous Ismaili quote (too famous I should say) "You are stuck in the 7th century. Boo hoo hoo hoo"

Guest · #9

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 214: Narrated Ibn 'Umar:The Prophet said, "O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Sham! O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Yemen." The People said, "And also on our Najd." He said, "O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Sham (north)! O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Yemen." The people said, "O Allah's Apostle! And also on our Najd." I think the third time the Prophet said,"There (in Najd) is the place of earthquakes and afflictions and from there comes out the side of the head of Satan."And the founder of Anajmis' unconvoluted religion hailed from?

Guest · #10

Qiyam,You still have not answered why a daughter can not be Imam. And does your theory of not skipping a generation mean that the seed of Ali (AS) disappeared over the generations?

Guest · #11

According to Qiyam, he is NOT a direct descendent of his great grandfather. The rest of his comments are similar nit-picking based of DESPERATION.BOHRA-ISM like wahabi-ism has no legs to stand upon. It is based on force & co-ercion and LIES.

Guest · #12

Dear Nizari and Hafeez, Was that your response..your defense..your rebuttal.Neither one of you brought anything to defend yourselves or your theories but statement.Nizari you originally defended you theory that Ali was the Imam while the Prophet was not using a hadith...that argued against me that hadith are not authentic. Well that mean your defense is also not authentic.Nizari there is no similarity to Imam Ismail and Nizar. Nizar claimed Imamate...Musa Khadim didn't until Imam Ismail left for Basra...and that only because he was asked to.And then come your motto...I'm stuck in the 12th/7th century. Well I'm sorry, but even your HI says all answers come from the teaching of the Prophet (7th century). Maybe you should start listening to what he say.Regarding lineal descent...your arguing with the statements of every Imam from the time of Hassan...each stated Imamate is direct lineal descent from father to son..not grandson. Yes, Agha Khan has blood tie to the 48th Imam...but your missing the point..Agha Khan is Karim bin Ali...not Karim bin Muhammad...and Ali bin Muhammad was not an Imam. So Karim bin Ali is not a direct descendant of the Imam...he is the direct descendant of a direct descendant of an Imam. And Imamate does flow by proxity. By the way...what happened to your "male direct or remote descendant" theory. Remote was just a recent add-on.You do this happened once before in Nizari Imamate. According to Farhad Daftary..Nizari's son Hadi had no sons. This is from Nizari history and Mr. Daftary says it is unquestionable.

Guest · #13

Qiyam,I started this post with questions addressed to you. Are you ducking (an unfortunate term if you have followed my other thread)the questions?EXMuslim

Guest · #14

Dear ExMuslim, I apologize...I thought I answered your question."Does it have to be the eldest son or any son?"---the next Imam must be any son that the current Imam chooses. This what is meant by direct lineal descendant. This lineage is from the Adam Nabi. This is from the traditions of the Imams themselves."And why can the Imam not be a woman?"---For the reason above. I personally do not know the origin of it being a male versus a woman. It maybe that while a male child stay with the parents..a female child separates to live the her husband and his family...thus no longer of her original family. So the link of descendant is broken. That is just a guess.

Guest · #15

qiyam,---the next Imam must be any son that the current Imam chooses." The twelvers include both Hassan (AS) and Hussein (AS) as Imams."..a female child separates to live the her husband and his family...thus no longer of her original family. So the link of descendant is broken. That is just a guess." So the Bohra Imams are not descendants of the Prophet (SAS)?

Guest · #16

Qiyam,I think you have shot yourself in the foot over this!Please clarify that Hasan and Husein are direct descendants of Ali and Fatima. Ali is not Imam and Descendants must be from Husein.

Guest · #17

Dear Porus,Ali was an Imam...just as the Prophet was an Imam. Ali was more importantly the Asas of the Prophet. The Prophet was also the rasul and nabi of Allah.And I apologize to ExMuslim...I assumed you knew the Imams were descendants of Ali and Fatima. Imamate is with the progency of Muhammad thru Ali and Fatima according to both Twelvers and Bohras. The Imamate is based not on inheritance, but on "Appointment by Allah" through the Holy Prophet or the preceding Imam.

Guest · #18

qiyam,But Fatima (AS) was a daughter and "So the link of descendant is broken". So your Imams are descendants of Ali (AS) but not of the prophet (SAW) according to you!"The Imamate is based not on inheritance, but on "Appointment by Allah" through the Holy Prophet or the preceding Imam." And only male issue can inherit even in this day and age?I am confused!

Guest · #19

Qiyam,ExMuslim is asking a legitimate question based on your assertions.My understanding is that Ali is not Imam or asaas of the prophet but asaas of Imaamat. And Muhammad is never considered Imam, at least among Bohras.The first Imam is Hassan. He was appointed by Ali. Why did Imaamat not pass onto one of Hassan's children?The reason why a woman cannot be Imam is that her husband has authority over her in accordance with laws of God. And no one can have authority over an Imam.Also, the reason why Imaamat passed to Husein is that during the time of Prophet, only panjatan, recognized by Prophet himself as Ahle-Bayt, were declared "pure" by Allah. It then makes sense that Imaamat passed from Hasan to Husein. That Imam should be from Husein's seed, and hence Fatima and Ali's seed, is a Fatimi dogma with no basis in Quraan. However, it is theology as propounded by later Imams. There is nothing to prevent an Imam to nominate anyone as his successor. Only pre-requisite as far as lineage is concerned, is that he should be from seed of Ali and Fatima.

Guest · #20

The last sentence in my previous post should read:"Only pre-requisite as far as lineage is concerned, is that he should be from seed of Hussein".

Guest · #21

qiyam and Nizari.Although not a Muslim myself, I have studied the major religions of India at university level. As you are both aware two of the leading imams among the mainstream are Imam Hanbal and Ibn Shafi’i. And guess what these two Imams had to say about the creation of the Prophet and Ali:Imam Hanbal quotes in his Musnad (as do Ibn Shafi’i in his Manaqib, Mir Seyyed Ali Hamadani in Mawaddatu'l-Qurba, Dailami in Firdaus and others with minor variations) in quoting the "Hadith of Creation": Prophet said: "I and Ali were created of the same Divine Light 14,000 years before Adam was created. From the loins of the Prophet Adam and through his holy progeny, the Light was inherited by Abdu'l-Muttalib, and from him it was divided and inherited by Abdullah, (father of the Prophet) and Abu Talib, (father of Ali). I was granted prophethood, and Ali was granted the caliphate."Qiyam, is this a fabricated hadith? Why would the Sunni imams want to give Ali such an elevated status?Stop arguing amongst yourselves and stick to your respective beliefs. I can see that although ExMuslim, surely a misnomer, started this topic, it is really a continuation of the one started by you qiyam.I would like to further my knowledge of both your sects. We are beginning to get to know a bit more about the Nizari Ismaili doctrines through their official website but information about Bohras is still scant. Tell me qiyam, does your Dai tell you the name of your present Imam. Are you notified when one Imam dies and another takes his place? Do you know when a son is born in the imam's household? And do Dais continue in direct lineal descent as well?Babu

Guest · #22

You see Qiyam, the above Hadith shows clearly the Nizari position regarding Muhammad and Ali.Ali possessed the Light of Imamat and Muhammad possessed the Light of Prophethood. In our belief Muhammad's Light was inherited by Hasan and Ali's Light was inherited by Husayn.However, the line of Husayn contains si the permanent dwelling place of the Divine Light while the Light of Muhammad can be bestowed on certain ppl of the Imam's family, better known as Pir.

Guest · #23

All shias believe that there must always exist an Imam on earth or it would perish.Mirza Ghulam Ahamad also talked about the recognition of the Imam of the Age.So Qiyam,If Muhammad was the Imam and Ali only after him, who was Imam before Muhammad? (note that Abdulla died before Muhammad was born)The Nizari position is that Ali was the Imam, and Abu Talib before him, and Abu Muttalib before him and this goes back to Adam.For us, Imamat is eternal just as Islam is eternal.17:71 – “One day We shall call together all human beings by their Imam: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.”17:72 - “And those who are blind in this world, will be blind in the hereafter, and even further astray from the path.”The above shows the existence of an Imam in every age.

Guest · #24

One more pillar of Nizari Islam is that keep repeating falsehood until it is accepted as the truth.

Guest · #25

qiyam,Do you take the weekend off from these boards? I am still waiting for a response. I repeat part of my message:I would like to further my knowledge of both your sects. We are beginning to get to know a bit more about the Nizari Ismaili doctrines through their official website but information about Bohras is still scant. Tell me qiyam, does your Dai tell you the name of your present Imam. Are you notified when one Imam dies and another takes his place? Do you know when a son is born in the imam's household? And do Dais continue in direct lineal descent as well?qiyam, does the Bohra doctrine still need to be shrouded in secrecy?babu

Guest · #26

Dear ExMuslim, There are some things that have gotten confused here. I have tried to explain the difference in Imamate and naas (transferance) according to Agha Khanni and Bohras. I see I may have confused some points by the response I've gotten.What I pointed out is that doctrine of Imamate was originally the same for Twelvers, Bohras, and Agha Khanni. It wasn't until the split of Musta'Ali and Nizar that the Agha Khanni changed to father to eldest son and the direct lineal descendant. During this time, the Twelvers and Bohras still follow the doctrine as I explained:The Imamate is based not on inheritance, but on "Appointment by Allah" through the Holy Prophet or the preceding Imam.This is why Imam Hassan choose Imam Husayn as his successor and there and to his descandant.

Guest · #27

Dear Porus,"My understanding is that Ali is not Imam or asaas of the prophet but asaas of Imaamat."--Ali is asas of the Imamat...who was the Prophet. But he is still an Imam. Asaas is an added position to this. No one argues that the Prophet was Quran-e-natiq. Well, one must be an Imam to be this. To add he was given the added titles of Nabi and Rasul. This was the same to Adam, Nuh, Ibrahim, Musa, and Isa...and so to Muhammad. There upon the Prophet said there will be no more nabis after me. Well, if no nabis...then there can be no rasuls either. It should be pointed out that Maulana Ali stated in public..everything he knows was taught to him by the Prophet. Your theory doesn't hold."And Muhammad is never considered Imam, at least among Bohras."---Where did you here this. It is via Yahya Nabi that Imam was given back to Muttalib and there given down to Muhammad. It is the via Ghadir that Muhammad gave the Imamat to Ali to begin with. "The first Imam is Hassan. He was appointed by Ali. Why did Imaamat not pass onto one of Hassan's children?"---Firstly, Adam was the first Imam on earth, not Imam Hassan. It is by fact that he has positions of Rasul and Nabi that he is recognized by. Secondly, it is not through hereditary means one is the Imam."That Imam should be from Husein's seed, and hence Fatima and Ali's seed, is a Fatimi dogma with no basis in Quraan. However, it is theology as propounded by later Imams. There is nothing to prevent an Imam to nominate anyone as his successor. Only pre-requisite as far as lineage is concerned, is that he should be from seed of Ali and Fatima."---This is a dogma you've misread. None of the Imams promoted any such dogma. If the hadiths state that the preceding Imam is selected by Allah and is known from birth..and cannot be changed. It is your latter statement of selecting a sucessor which is Imamate doctrine. Even the last statement is not promoted.

Guest · #28

Dear Baburao, "Imam Hanbal quotes in his Musnad (as do Ibn Shafi’i in his Manaqib, Mir Seyyed Ali Hamadani in Mawaddatu'l-Qurba, Dailami in Firdaus and others with minor variations) in quoting the "Hadith of Creation": Prophet said: "I and Ali were created of the same Divine Light 14,000 years before Adam was created. From the loins of the Prophet Adam and through his holy progeny, the Light was inherited by Abdu'l-Muttalib, and from him it was divided and inherited by Abdullah, (father of the Prophet) and Abu Talib, (father of Ali). I was granted prophethood, and Ali was granted the caliphate."Qiyam, is this a fabricated hadith? ---According to the methods of hadith classification it is hasan...so most likely not fabricated. Secondly, look at what is written..the light given to Abdullah and Abu Talib..and respectively Imamate was given to Muhammad and Ali. To this Muhammad was given Prophethood and Ali caliphate. None is this is false."Why would the Sunni imams want to give Ali such an elevated status?"---During this time of Imam Hanabal...Maulana Ali was cursed from the mimbar throughout the muslim empire by the Umayyads. The sunni Imams (like Hanabal and Hanafi) began promoted hadiths of the Prophet in support of Ali and to clear his name."Tell me qiyam, does your Dai tell you the name of your present Imam. Are you notified when one Imam dies and another takes his place? Do you know when a son is born in the imam's household?" ---We refer to the Imam as'Satr as the progency of Imam Tayyib, or Alai Muhammad (progency of Muhammad). The will reveal himself as he chooses..to whom he choose. During the first ghaybat of Imam Ismail until Imam Mahdi..the Dais were not allowed to reveal the location or name of the Imam az'Zaman at that time either. This maybe the case today."And do Dais continue in direct lineal descent as well?"--No. The preceding Dai is selected by the former Dais based on iman and qualification to lead the community.

Guest · #29

Qiyam,All this is legendary stuff. I do not think any Bohra thinks of Ali as Nabi and Muhammad as Imam.Your taqarrub, which is recited after every fard, clearly states that Ali is the asas of Imamat. And if you count your imams mentioned in taqarrub, you will count 21 from Hassan to Tayyib.The dogma about Adam being the first Imam and how Imamat passed from Adam to Ali is the stuff that has been made up and coverted into religious theology by Ismaili Imams. We annot even think of Adam as a historical figure. His story is purely metaphorical.The truth simply is that Ali was the fourth khalifa nad Hassan abdicated in favor of Muawiya. Shia doctrine gathered strength from Karbala and that is how we have a number of Khilafas. To justify each Khilafa, stories have been made up. The most fantastic one is the Ismaili one. You can either accept it as truth or consider it as a set of dogma. Interesting dogma, but dogma all the same.

Guest · #30

Dear Porus, By your analogy..everything is dogma except what you believe...which in itself is a dogma."All this is legendary stuff. I do not think any Bohra thinks of Ali as Nabi and Muhammad as Imam."---Firstly, Muhammad is Imam and Nabi and Rasul. Ali is Imam and Asaas...the asas of the Imam..which was Muhammad. This is clearly written by Dais Sijistani and Kirmani."Your taqarrub, which is recited after every fard, clearly states that Ali is the asas of Imamat. And if you count your imams mentioned in taqarrub, you will count 21 from Hassan to Tayyib."---You are correct...Asaas of Imamat..Wasi and Wali of the Prophet; all mean the same thing in reference. And 21 Imams after Ali."The dogma about Adam being the first Imam and how Imamat passed from Adam to Ali is the stuff that has been made up and coverted into religious theology by Ismaili Imams."---Excuse...theology "made-up" by the Ismaili Imams. Based on what. This "made-up" theology is written in the hadiths of Imam Baqir and Jafar Sadiq. Imam Ismail wasn't even born yet!"We cannot even think of Adam as a historical figure. His story is purely metaphorical."---According to whom...Allah via the Quran or you via the internet."The truth simply is that Ali was the fourth khalifa nad Hassan abdicated in favor of Muawiya. Shia doctrine gathered strength from Karbala and that is how we have a number of Khilafas. To justify each Khilafa, stories have been made up. The most fantastic one is the Ismaili one. You can either accept it as truth or consider it as a set of dogma. Interesting dogma, but dogma all the same."---This is the response of one who know little about Islamic history..from the actual history books. I would have expected better from you.

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