Progs Plz Answer my Questions...

[anajmi]

kalim,

People do not believe because they find compelling reasons to, but simply because they are conditioned since birth.

You seem to be talking simply about your own family. That is a pity. I am wondering why they were unable to condition you. Or are you simply smarter than the rest of us? Were you born that way or was it your conditioning?

I don't want to waste my time replying to the rest of your post because you run and hide. Maybe it has something to do with your conditioning.

porus,

I am glad you figured it out. Figure this out too

I gave up on Bohraism but continue to participate in their Jamaat.

Now read you about post in light of what I had posted before -

I am talking about most orthos who probably are like you and do not have faith but take part in majlises and other cute bohra traditions for the same reason that you do. For them, which would be more convenient? Feeding the kothar once in a while or revolting against them?

[anajmi]

A couple of corrections

Now read your above post in light of what I had posted before -

[anajmi]

Read Qur'an and Hadith. Requirements to be Muslim are crystal clear.

I happen to agree with that statement. It's only the lucky ones that get chosen by Allah to believe in him, others will remain in the dark. Unconditioned, so to say.

[anajmi]

accty,

Don't ask questions to which people have no answers. I don't know the date when the red sea was split and can't show you the path. Now it is upto you to believe or not. If you don't believe then there is no point in reading the quran every night before going to sleep. It isn't going to help you in the hereafter.

So tell me, now that you know that it is not possible to know the date and place of the miracles, do you still believe in them?

I am not telling you that you are a kafir, I am just asking you if you believe. If you do then you tell me the date and place. If you don't, then I don't have to tell you that you are a kafir.

[S. Insaf]

Dear truebohra
My answers to the questions you put forward (hoping that they were in real earnest):
1. Do progressives have any specific mosque where they go and offer namaz?

In Islam do you really need a specific mosque for prayers to Allah? The specific Dawoodi Bohra mosques are more for Waiz and other fun-fare than for namaz. Progressives offer namaz in any Muslim mosque and bury their dead in any Muslim graveyard.

Who leads prayers in progressives’ mosque? Are there any Aamils among them?

In Islam if there are five Muslims in a mosque the most senior, knowledgeable and pious among them can lead the prayers. Aamils sent by Kothar are normally greedy, arrogant and are involved in anti-Islamic activities. Their job is to make Bohras to submit Dai rather to Allah. They are not fit to lead the prayers, so progressives do not believe in Aamil system. Any one who wants to know the progressives’ prayers are welcome to see them praying in mosques or centers under their control. But don’t get shocked by seeing Kothar’s women there doing matam inside the mosque and deliberating disturbing the progressive in their prayers.

Who conducts Waiz on Moharram specifically on Ashura in progressive circles?

There are scholars among progressives who are well versed in developments that led to the tragedy of Karbala, happenings in Karbala and thereafter and philosophy of Martyrdom. They very well perform this job all through out Moharram month.

Do progressives perform Matam at least on Ashura?

Yes, only on Ashura.

Do progressives go for Ziyarat of our past Dais & hudood fouzala?

All Dargahs and Mazars are under control of Sayedna Saheb’s local administrations and they do not allow any progressive there.

Do progressives have any kind of Niyaz or jaman?

Yes they do. But their Niyaz Jamans are according to the solemnity of the occasions.

Do progressives’ children go to any kind of madarsaas?

Yes, in most of their centers in India and abroad they have madrassas and able Muallims to impart the required Dini talim to their children. Minus Dai-worshipping. Their also have few centers which train Bohra men and women to carry out certain religious rites and camps and seminars are also organized for this purpose regularly.

Till which Dai do progressives think nass has reached?

On this issue there are two groups among progressives. One group strongly believe that 47th Dawoodi Bohra Dai was not appointed by nass and hence he was a usurper. But majority of present Bohras especially those associated with the Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra Community do accept the present incumbent as Dai and they are not interested in any religious controversy. They are interested in social welfare of the community and hence their demands are for democracy in Jamats secular affairs, accountability and protection of human rights of Dawoodi Bohras.

Do progressives believe that Imamau-zaman would physically reappear some day from seclusion?

This has been clearly denied even by late Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb in 1925 in Burhanpur Dargah Case. “Imam ni hasti kalpit chhe”, were his words. This a belief like Krishna, Mehdi or Christ would return one day.

Do progressives believe that Dawat’s mission would continue till qayamat or zuhur of Imam-u-zaman?

The progressives believe in Allah’s commandments that except Allah every thing is mortal.

-- wait for more but first answer these.

[pro_pig]

insaf,On this issue there are two groups among progressives. One group strongly believe that 47th Dawoodi Bohra Dai was not appointed by nass and hence he was a usurper. But majority of present Bohras especially those associated with the Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra Community do accept the present incumbent as Dai and they are not interested in any religious controversy. They are interested in social welfare of the community and hence their demands are for democracy in Jamats secular affairs, accountability and protection of human rights of Dawoodi Bohras.
which one u and asgar belong too.

[Muslim First]

Br. Isaf
AS

In Islam if there are five Muslims in a mosque the most senior, knowledgeable and pious among them can lead the prayers.

Check it again.

Imam of Jamaat:

Ibn Masud related That Prophet SAW SAid:

The one who has most knowledge of the Qur'an should act as Imam. If several people are equally learned in Qur'an, then person who has most knowlege of Hadith should act as Imam.(Muslim)

Abu Darda related that Prophet SAW SAid:

If there are three people in village or even in a desert, and they do not pray together, the devil will surely overcome them. So always offe prayers in congregation, for a wolf only injures a solitary sheep. (Abu Dawud, Ahmed and an-Nasai)

(B.T.W. I attended wedding of daughter of Shaikh Murtada. Ordinary Bohras had to pray by themselves alone (not in Jamaat) even though Prince-of-Welsh Shehzada was present. I believe they had private prayers for privileged dignitaries somewhere else). Other Muslims (Shias and Sunnis) prayed in Jamaat and Bohras watched them.

Wasalaam
.

[Humsafar]

Kalim, good to see you again. Nice post. I doubt you will get any reasonable answers to your questions. truebohra can attempt some incoherent response from his shallow knowledge, the pigs, frogs and birds are just hecklers and that Zack fellow who seemed to show some promise was a mere flash in the pan. How we miss Qiyam and Hur!!

[anajmi]

accty,

I am still waiting for your answer to my question. Do you believe in the miracle performed by Hazrat Musa as mentioned in the quran?

[kalim]

Anajmi: Actually I do not consider anyone more or less intelligent than me. A person can only be judged on how they behave with family, friends and others. All that is needed is that they care sufficiently for their loved ones, live a productive and informed life. Nothing more or less. Whether they believe in god, angels, jinns or Santa Claus is besides the point as long as they do not try and force others to adopt those beliefs or use violence in propagation of their beliefs. Beliefs are like mind viruses: once you catch them, they seldom leave you. In this sense I am sure you and most others on this board are very nice people whom I would have no problem befriending if the chance came along.

I too was conditioned into the bohra mind virus, which belongs to the larger set of Islamic mind viruses. I too rote learned the scriptures in an alien language, genuflected and shed tears at the socially correct times. However, I must say I am glad that I got rid of these irrational viruses: for the beliefs they inculcate are not conducive in my life. I figured this out once I could understand the scriptures. I have nothing against them but I feel that they are irrelevant today and are too rooted in a primitive and foreign culture to be useful. I can not accept that there is a god and is he is the violent tyrant of the scriptures.

Look at the sentences: (a) I am lucky allah choose me to believe in the quran and his messengers (b) I am lucky allah choose me to not believe ridiculous fairy tales and ravings of madmen. They are both equally meaningless (and hence true and false) in the sense that neither can be proven, even with reasonable confidence, rationally.

Finally I do not hide. I am not interested in debating with you or anyone else for that matter. Anyway, the debate would be futile as I do not accept your basic premises as true.

Muslim First: You made my point: you think that quran interpreted according to Yususf Ali and Ibn Kathir, and hadith collected by Bukhari are what define a "true" Muslim. For the bohras quran interpreted according their Imams and da'is, hadiths collected by Qadi Noman are what define a "true" Muslim. Now if you have heard anything I and others have said on this board these are not too different. There may be some difference but it is better to leave them aside. You should be more interested in social issues of the bohras. I know you already are in a way from your civil engineering business as you claim, and that is great. Leave matters of belief to individuals and do not be in a hurry to judge.

[anajmi]

kalim,

Well, I am not sure getting chosen to be burned in hell would be considered lucky but then that is how you've been conditioned.

And please don't talk about there being no proof. There is enough proof. Your conditioning simply prevents you from seeing it.

And when you say quran according to Yusuf Ali, you are simply demonstrating your ignorance of communication via languages. Been a scientist you should've understood. Imagine if I were to claim that only an idiot would believe in the model of the atom according to Bohr. Not that it is incorrect, but it is according to Bohr. Can I present something more valid? Nope. But one thing I can say for sure is that it is incorrect because it is according to Bohr.

My conditioning has prepared me for always debating falsehood. So whenever you are ready, let me know.

[anajmi]

One other thing, I have asked you many times about presenting us with the correct translation of any ayah of the quran that Yusuf Ali may have mistranslated. Not once have you given a reply. Every time you simply run and hide and then come back a couple of months later with the same silly argument that you don't want to debate me. You need to grow up. How old are you?

[jamanpasand]

In legal community, there is saying that first argue on facts, if you have non then argue on law, if there is nothing there also ---- then argue, argue and argue !!!!!!

[anajmi]

No wonder most lawyers are hell bound disbelievers.

[kalim]

Anajmi: You say you will debate falsehoods. How have you decided that what constitutes falsehoods? Also, there is really no proof for belief. Your belief in quran and Islam is no different that hindu belief in gita and the vedas. They are the same: there are no objective basis for distinguishing one set of tales from the other. Your example of Bohr is not valid: no one believes scientific facts because so and so said it. These can be verified by those interested at any time and any place. Not so for religious claims. I have outlined views on science as scientists perceive them many times. Unfortunately no message ever gets across the mind viruses.

As for repeating the same argument: you can be accused of doing the same too. When will you grow up out of your intellectual childhood? Very few of your arguments are original to those following this board for a while. Anyway, as jamanpasand said, first we need facts. In the realm of religion there are no facts, only fiction. As to law, I do not consider religious texts to be a source of any useful law. Thus, I am not interested in simply arguing. I have many better things to do. You can continue to believe what you like, I am not interested in debating. Maybe software architects have plenty of time. I do not. See you in a few month's time.

[porus]

kalim,

It can be exasperating communicating with anajmi. I would ask that you contribute a bit more often than you have been doing. Your input is very constructive and enlightening. Always glad to see you here.

anajmi,

You might be interested in the following site:

http://www.qurantranslation.org/

Unfortunately, the site is not complete and and some fonts do not display. There is no guidance on the site about how to correct it.

However, the Introduction page is superb and discusses in detail the problem with transations. There is also a good discussion on Muhakama and Mutashabihaat, the discussion which is close to my heart.

[Average Bohra]

Kalim,

Welcome back; I too enjoy reading your posts and incidentally my views are probably closer to yours than anyone else here. Hope you find time to post more often.

[anajmi]

kalim,

I keep repeating the same thing because there is nothing new to say. The questions have been the same for the last 1400 years and so have the answers. Some choose to believe and some don't. Besides, as I've said before there is a lot of proof all around us. It is simply your conditioning that prevents you from believing in them. There is a lot of proof in the quran (including a lot of facts unknown to man at that time). Had you known how to read Arabic (or a translation thereof) you might have read some of them. But again, it is your conditioning that prevents you from doing that.

As far as the Hindus and Gita is concerned, for those who don't believe, logic demands that there be no difference between them as they are both falsehoods. And I can perfectly understand that. For those who do believe one leads to hell and the other to heaven. I am not sure why that is so difficult for you to understand. Does it have something to do with your conditioning?

By the way, I am still waiting for a solution to the Yusuf Ali problem that you keep repeating. Let me be more specific. Either Yusuf Ali has translated it right and you still don't believe or Yusuf Ali hasn't translated it right and hence you don't believe. Which is it? If it is the former, you might want to stop talking about his translation, if it is the later, find a better translation. Maybe porus can help. Try this web site -

http://www.qurantranslation.org/

[anajmi]

As far as Bohr's atomic model is concerned, it is simply a theory. The model has been found to be correct experimentally only. I am not sure what kind of a scientist you are but let me explain -

The atom is supposed to confirm to that model not because it has been observed as such, but only because it behaves as such. I am sure, being a scientist you can understand the difference.

So it is perfectly valid for me to say that I don't agree with bohr's model since I haven't seen it look like that. And I am sure neither have you. Actually, neither has Bohr!!

[anajmi]

kalim bohr anajmi Yusuf Ali atom
bohr anajmi Yusuf Ali atom kalim
anajmi Yusuf Ali kalim bohr atom
atom atom atom kalim kalim kalim

It might look stupid but I just need to make sure I am able to find this thread when you come back in a few months. I want to continue this discussion.

[anajmi]

porus,

I thought we agreed sometime back that your interpretation of a Mutashabihaat ayah was simply a figment of your imagination, didn't we?

[anajmi]

One other thing I would like to mention is that I have never said that any particular English Translation of the quran is perfect. I am sure they are not and no matter which author tries, he or she will never be able to translate the quran perfectly.

But unless any of you can produce a translation (and it doesn't matter if it is your own) which actually states that Allah does not exist and that he is a figment of the readers imagination, Yusuf Ali will do just fine. And lest I forget, please mention the ayah which translates as that.

[porus]

Nobody is going to send you to hell for not believing in Bohr's model of the atom.

In fact, that model is history. We have better models of the atom. It is Physics 101 for you. Get thee there.

[anajmi]

That is what I keep saying. However, you WILL go to hell if you don't believe in Allah and his messenger. That is one model that will never change, doesn't matter which translation you read. Get thyself to a mosque and start praying.

[anajmi]

accty,

I am still waiting for your answer to my question. Do you believe in the miracle performed by Hazrat Musa as mentioned in the quran?

[jamanpasand]

admin

What is the next level after Prolific ?

Someone needs one level up.

[humane]

And how many of you know that Yousuf Ali was a Dawoodi Bohra of Khambat.

[accountability]

Anajmi: I believe in quran, as Porous said, you have to understand muhkam and mutshabihat. By the way, You know your date of birth, right.

[anajmi]

accty,

I understand muhkam and mutashabihaat better than porus. Remember, porus is a disbeliever.

And my date of birth is mutashabihaat.

I asked a simple question. Do you believe in the miracle performed by Hazrat Musa as mentioned in the quran? And please don't dance.

[anajmi]

humane,

Yes I know that Abdullah Yusuf Ali was a dawoodi bohra. The reason why people like kalim and porus don't want us to read a translation is the same as why the Syedna doesn't want us to read a translation. They don't want you to know the truth. It is like how the Shaitaan is. He knows he is going to hell but his mission is to take as many of the believers to hell as possible with him. porus and kalim are simply serving him, preventing people from understanding the quran is a good way to ensure their doom.

Of course they will come back and say that they don't mind you understanding the quran as long as it is in Arabic. So you need to learn Arabic to understand the quran. But then, Yusuf Ali did know Arabic didn't he? So if he hasn't been able to translate what he understood properly (according to these folks you will be able to understand properly if you know Arabic), what makes any of these folks think that we would be able to do a better job. Nothing. They simply don't want you to understand as I explained before.

And I am using Yusuf Ali only as an example. There are many good translations available out there that have been reviewed by a lot of Arabic scholars before being printed. None of them have contradictory messages. They all give you the same understanding.

Contradictory messages come only from people like kalim, porus and the Syedna.