Re-evaluating the Namaz

[salim]

A few people on this board always say that a particular form of remembering of Allah (which they follow) is the ONLY way to Allah.

Salah of ismalies is different than that of others. Differences do exist among other sects also. Each sect things that their salah is the ONLY TRUE Salah.

It does not matter how you remember Allah. remembering Allah is more important than the way you remember him. This is the reason no where in Quran Allah endorse any particular form of Salah.

If Islam has 5 pillers as mentioned by MF, than I say Zikir is foundation that holds that 5 pillars. Zikir is way more important than those 5 pillars

"....and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember-- Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward.”

(Al Ahzab, 35)


"Those who remember Allah standing and sitting and lying on their sides and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth: Our Lord! Thou hast not created this in vain! Glory be to Thee; save us then from the chastisement of the fire:"

(Al-e Imran, 191)


“Hadhrat Ayesha (R.A) has related that Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W) said that Zikr-e-Khafi (hidden Zikr), which even the Angles cannot hear, is seventy times superior to other forms of Zikr. On the day of judgment Angels will present record of every deed of people. Allah will ask the Angles if there is any other deed left to be presented. Angles will reply that there is nothing left anymore. Allah will then inform them that there is still one deed of people remaining and that is the Zikr-e-Khafi (hidden zikr).”

(Tafseer-e-Mazhari. Quoted in Dalael-e-Sulook Page 99)


So this means either Ayesha the mother of Islam is wrong OR the guy who quoted this is wrong OR zikir is atleast 70 times better than your form of Namaz as per Prophet Muhammad

SO Please before you claim others to be wrong at least fear of Allah. Because he is all knowing.

Allah Knows the best
Salim

[Muslim First]

Br. Salim

There is no need to Re-evaluating or evaluating Salah..

Salah is established practice since the days of our Prophet.

1.285 +/- Billion Muslim agree that 5 time Salah is a Fird. They might combine some prayers into 3 Period or they might have variant hand positions, but act of Salah is same.

Fajr is 2 Rakat Fird, Zuhr is 4 Rakat Fird, Asr is 4 Rakat Fird, Magrib is 3 Rakat Fird and Isha is 4 Rakat Fird. There are additional Emphasized Sunna, Non Emphasized sunna, Nafl, Witr and Night prayers (Tahajjud or Qiyam e Lail) which you may do to acquire more Thawab or do not do and suffer no harm. Salah takes precedence over Dhikra.

It is useless to debate this point. Lot of posts has been posted on this site and it will be waste of storage space to go on arguing about it.

Ya Allah Madad

[salim]

I have no problem with your namaz. I respect every action that includes remembers of Allah. I have problem when you say you believe in Allah and Muhammad and then goes against Allah and Muhammad to support your Khalifs.

1.285 +/- Billion Muslim agree that 5 time Salah is a Fird.

"....and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember-- Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward.”

(Al Ahzab, 35)

This is what Allah Say.
What Allah says is more important than what 1.28.. million people says. If Majority is always right then people who claim themselves Muslims are not majority. When muhammad was alive, Islam was minute minority on the earth. Was Muhammad wrong when 99.9999999...% was against of him on this face of earth?

ALSO Only a very small minority like yourself, Osama bin ladan, Mullah umar and like minded believe that Remebering Allah (in any other way other than what they feel is right) is wrong by trashing other peoples salat. So you don't represent 1.28.. Billion Muslims, they are not like you. I have no problem with 5 times salah or even 50 times. I have no issues with it. I have grown in between sunnies, I know a few who are like you, but majority are God fearing, nice people.

What I know is, Remembering Allah silently without any actions (unlike we do in namaz) is more important. And here is what Prophet of Islam says

"Zikr-e-Khafi (hidden Zikr), which even the Angles cannot hear, is seventy times superior to other forms of Zikr. On the day of judgment Angels will present record of every deed of people. Allah will ask the Angles if there is any other deed left to be presented. Angles will reply that there is nothing left anymore. Allah will then inform them that there is still one deed of people remaining and that is the Zikr-e-Khafi (hidden zikr)."

KHAFI (Hidden)

Br. Muslim

Trashing of remembrance of Allah is not good. Read the Quran and Bukhari Hadiths and you will find out. You might be a big fan of khalifas, but they can't save your from fire of the hell. It is your action that decides if you go to hell or heaven. By trashing the remembrance of Allah you are challenging the authority of Allah.

Allah knows the best

[znanwalla]

The Book Pertaining to the Turmoil and Portents of the Last Hour (Kitab Al-Fitan wa Ashrat As-Sa`ah)

Muslim :: Book 41 : Hadith 6894
This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Abu Huraira but with this variation of wording that in the hadith transmitted on the authority of Abu Bakr[may Allah be pleased with him], there is an addition of these words:"

There is a prayer among prayers ('Asr) and one who misses it is as if his family and property have been ruined." ....MF...Kindly enlighten me on this prayer please !

--
Surah Isra 17 verse 80 Say: "O my Lord! let my entry be by the Gate of Truth and Honor and likewise my exit by the Gate of Truth and Honor; and grant me from Thy Presence an authority to aid (me)."

Which is this authority MF? and if you say that there have been many posts on this subject then haven't I shown you Quranic ayats negating your arguments? I have ! so why are you still grinding your own stone?....follow your own path or are you not happy with your religion?

Ameen
Transliteration :Wa qur rabbi adkhilni mudkhala sidqiw wa akhrijni mukhraja sidqiw wa-j'al li mil ladunka sulta_nan nasira_(n).

[anajmi]

I don't think we can have a discussion about the quran or the namaz with znan unless she can produce the final revealed ayahs of the quran. Without those ayahs, her supposed knowledge is simply quoting books like a parrot without understanding. Br. Muslim First, I don't think you should answer any of znan's questions till she produces those ayahs.

[znanwalla]

Suits me fine buddy ! Then simply stop your cheap antics ! If you guys are so weak in the Quran then don't blame others except yourselves and don't stake hugh claims of being self-righteous and pious ! You only look look foolish and sound more like empty vessels making the most noise and Najmi you seem to "rattle" but have no depth whatsoever...everyone knows this by now !...zn

[znanwalla]

The ayats are there ! It is clear you have no clue !

According to some ridiculous, illogical and wrong notions ,some group of men in your cult began to interpret Quran from their sectarian point of view and began to style themselves as Ulama and Ahl-uz-Zikr and these Ulama further cut up the Muslims into various sects according to their own school or method of thought.Now every Mulla of a mosque, who does not know what is beyond his nose (like you and MF), claims they know the Quran and styles himself Alim but they don't ..... how farcical huh ?..zn

[anajmi]

znan,

No point in having a discussion with you about the quran unless you can produce the final revealed ayahs of the quran. It is obvious that you don't know.

[znanwalla]

Just get lost !

[Muslim First]

Zn

Ya Allah Madad

You remember you wrote this : "YOUR text is man made and created for you assholes by some assholes who betrayed the prophet of islam and rejected the Book of Allah in lieu of this fabrication and who have surrreptiously called it the Book of Allah but it is NOT the Book of Allah as the Book of Allah is a Persipicous Book...

I take it as you are calling 1.285 B Muslims (Shia & Sunni- Ismailis not included) and your Imam (Who has not said Qur'anis Phony) Assaholes.

I also take it as you called all the shabas who remembered Qur'an by heart, wrote down on skin parchments or bones, sat on committee to compile Qur'an in correct order as instructed to Prophet by Gibreald and Hz Ali RA who sat on throne of Amir-ul- Mumeen for six years and never said peep about this text being Phony Assholes. Shame on you. You bring your religion, and on your Imam nothing but shame.

Ab jaa- Challu bhare Paani me Doob JA

You said "YOUR text which you waving like an illiterate moron is all fucked up just like you are sodomized by the wahabbis...

Shane on you again.

Ya Allah Madad

[znanwalla]

MF...do you want me to say it again? Admin has requested me not to repeat and I will not unless you force my hand ! but if Admin agrees I will say it again because it is the truth ! Historians are saying so ! Muslim philologist recognize this also...If Allah's Book is a Persipicous Book ( complete, clear and flawless) and your text is NOTt then how can it ever be Allah's Book ? never ! why would I accept your text that is not from Allah ?...what obligation does anyone have to follow such a text? None !...or is it because you follow something I have to also follow it?...give me a break pal !...zn

[anajmi]

Br. Muslim First,

znan has not been able to produce the final revealed ayahs of the quran, which means that her knowledge about the quran is like that of a donkey carrying it on its back - zero, zilch, nada. Unless she can produce the final revealed ayahs, I do not see any point in discussion the quran with her.

[znanwalla]

OMG Najmi...you deserve another clip ! here it is...do please enjoy with MF huh ? sip coffee and listen carefully.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fBDQ2z9FsE
zn

[anajmi]

Was the gentleman referring to the final revealed ayahs of the quran? No he was not. Which means that "The one who cannot be named" did not even teach you to search youtube properly. Search harder, you might find those ayahs and then I might think about having a discussion with you.

[znanwalla]

Don't worry ! I will not tell you because this is not my responsibility ! You can keep on with your antics.....now enjoy this clip...everyone !...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbRLqelovs8

zn

[anajmi]

What you don't know, you can't tell me now can you? So you seek the knowledge about the final ayahs of the quran and when you find them on yourtube, let me know.

[znanwalla]

do you think we have such a low intellect as yours? You don't even know the Quran and so your "boastfulness" upto now makes us all laugh at you ...Hahahahah!!!

''Gardish pukarti rahi mere naseeb ki, Mushkil koi ruki rahe ye usme dam kahan
Jisne Ali kaha to mugaddar gaya, Maula tumahari chaanv mein ranj-o- alam kahan''

zn

[Muslim First]

Br. Anajmi

AS

It is too much typing to say "The one who cannot be named" so we will shortend it to TOWCBN.

Wasalaam

[Muslim First]

''Gardish pukarti rahi mere naseeb ki, Mushkil koi ruki rahe ye usme dam kahan
Jisne Ali kaha to mugaddar gaya, Maula tumahari chaanv mein ranj-o- alam kahan''

This is from Holy Qur'an


[Shakir 86:9] On the day when hidden things shall be made manifest,
[Yusufali 86:9] The Day that (all) things secret will be tested,
[Pickthal 86:9] On the day when hidden thoughts shall be searched out.

[Shakir 86:10] He shall have neither strength nor helper.
[Yusufali 86:10] (Man) will have no power, and no helper.
[Pickthal 86:10] Then will he have no might nor any helper.

[Shakir 80:33] But when the deafening cry comes,
[Yusufali 80:33] At length, when there comes the Deafening Noise,-
[Shakir 80:34] The day on which a man shall fly from his brother,[Yusufali 80:34] That Day shall a man flee from his own brother,
[Shakir 80:35] And his mother and his father,[Yusufali 80:35] And from his mother and his father,
[Shakir 80:36] And his spouse and his son--[Yusufali 80:36] And from his wife and his children.
[Shakir 80:37] Every man of them shall on that day have an affair which will occupy him.[Yusufali 80:37] Each one of them, that Day, will have enough concern (of his own) to make him indifferent to the others.
[Shakir 80:38] (Many) faces on that day shall be bright,
[Shakir 80:39] Laughing, joyous.
[Shakir 80:40] And (many) faces on that day, on them shall be dust,
[Shakir 80:41] Darkness shall cover them.
[Shakir 80:42] These are they who are unbelievers, the wicked.

If it is true then it also applys to TOWCBN ("The one who cannot be named") unless book he possesses does not include the above.

[Muslim First]

I just got this by e mail from a Bohra friend of mine.

Kal fursat na mili to kya karo ge,

Itni mohlat na mili to kya karo ge,

Roz kehte ho kal parhon ga namaz,

Kal agar saans na rahi to kya karo ge…

Rasam se sunnat achi,

Neend se namaz achi,

Gunah se neki achi,

Bazar se masjid achi

Fazool baton se quran ki tilawat achi,

Gheebat se zikar acha,

Delete se forward acha..


Namaz jo hum par farz kar di gayi hai....

Fajar....bister main

Zohar..naukri main

Asar.....chaye main

Maghrib...rastey main

Esha......tv main

Jumma.... sonay main

Eid.....bazaaron main

Na Durood, Na Quran.... Yeh Kaisa Hai (Musalman) ?

Phir kahtay ho q nahin hai Allah hum par meharban to Namaz parhao is say pahlay k tumhari Namaz parhi jayee.....

Is msg ko itna phela do jitna Allah or us kay Nabi say pyar hai kartay ho .........

[pardesi]

This is from Holy Qur'an

[Shakir 86:9] On the day when hidden things shall be made manifest,
[Yusufali 86:9] The Day that (all) things secret will be tested,
[Pickthal 86:9] On the day when hidden thoughts shall be searched out.

[Shakir 86:10] He shall have neither strength nor helper.
[Yusufali 86:10] (Man) will have no power, and no helper.
[Pickthal 86:10] Then will he have no might nor any helper.

[Shakir 80:33] But when the deafening cry comes,
[Yusufali 80:33] At length, when there comes the Deafening Noise,-
[Shakir 80:34] The day on which a man shall fly from his brother,[Yusufali 80:34] That Day shall a man flee from his own brother,
[Shakir 80:35] And his mother and his father,[Yusufali 80:35] And from his mother and his father,
[Shakir 80:36] And his spouse and his son--[Yusufali 80:36] And from his wife and his children.
[Shakir 80:37] Every man of them shall on that day have an affair which will occupy him.[Yusufali 80:37] Each one of them, that Day, will have enough concern (of his own) to make him indifferent to the others.
[Shakir 80:38] (Many) faces on that day shall be bright,
[Shakir 80:39] Laughing, joyous.
[Shakir 80:40] And (many) faces on that day, on them shall be dust,
[Shakir 80:41] Darkness shall cover them.
[Shakir 80:42] These are they who are unbelievers, the wicked.

If it is true then it also applys to TOWCBN ("The one who cannot be named") unless book he possesses does not include the above.

MF,

You are absolutely right. Very well described. It will apply to every living being and I am sure it will apply to my Imam just as much as it will apply to ambiya and the ahle bayt. Now let me ask you this:

[Shakir 86:9] On the day when hidden things shall be made manifest,
[Shakir 86:10] He shall have neither strength nor helper.

What will happen to you if you are caught on the wrong end of the stick. Wouldn't it be too late for you to ask for an intercessor? You will be beaten so bad that you wont have the strength or energy to call for help.

[Shakir 80:38] (Many) faces on that day shall be bright,
[Shakir 80:39] Laughing, joyous.

Read the above in light of a dua by Prophet Mohammad when he asked Allah to befriend those who befriend Ali (and by extension the Ahle Bayt and the holy Imams). So who will be laughing that day?.

[Shakir 80:40] And (many) faces on that day, on them shall be dust,
[Shakir 80:41] Darkness shall cover them.

What is meant by darkness here? Those without guidance for whom the Prophet asked Allah to be the enemy of those of are enemies of Ali (and by extension the Ahle Bayt and the holy Imams). So who will have dust on their faces?

You still got time MF. Get with the program.

[Humsafar]

I just got this by e mail from a Bohra friend of mine.

Kal fursat na mili to kya karo ge,

Itni mohlat na mili to kya karo ge,

Roz kehte ho kal parhon ga namaz,

.........

This is the cult namaz. And some ismailis posted links to the YouTube videos on another thread. That is the cult of Ali.
Both in essence are the same.

[pardesi]

I just got this by e mail from a Bohra friend of mine.

Kal fursat na mili to kya karo ge,

Itni mohlat na mili to kya karo ge,

Roz kehte ho kal parhon ga namaz,

.........

This is the cult namaz. And some ismailis posted links to the YouTube videos on another thread. That is the cult of Ali.
Both in essence are the same.

Brother Humsafar,

With all due respect
Cult Namaz, I understand. Not sure about your statement "Cult of Ali". The person lecturing is a Sunni Sheikh and gives references from sunni sources. He even quoted Abu Bakr saying that to look at Ali's face is an act of Ibadat and his source was the Nabi himself. Would the Prophet and Abu Bakr be considered the cult members?

If you could just clarify your statement, I will be much obliged.

Pardesi.

[Humsafar]

Pardesi, It does not matter who is saying it or what sources he is quoting. If Abubakar said it, he must have a reason to say to it and that is his personal truth. It does not become truth for everybody else. Besides, the talk about "looking at his face is like ibadat" is just an idea, a belief especially when his face is "not there" for anybody to look at. All the preacher is doing is talking about the "idea" of Ali and working up the crowd into a frenzy on the basis of that idea. This is cult-like bheaviour. Ali was a great personality, even an enlightened one, but his greatness and his enlightenment - irrespective of what Islamic or Ismaili theology you employ - cannot bring enlightenment, liberation to the followers who "believe" in him. If people insist it does then it is just a deception.

[pardesi]

Pardesi, It does not matter who is saying it or what sources he is quoting. If Abubakar said it, he must have a reason to say to it and that is his personal truth. It does not become truth for everybody else. Besides, the talk about "looking at his face is like ibadat" is just an idea, a belief especially when his face is "not there" for anybody to look at. All the preacher is doing is talking about the "idea" of Ali and working up the crowd into a frenzy on the basis of that idea. This is cult-like bheaviour. Ali was a great personality, even an enlightened one, but his greatness and his enlightenment - irrespective of what Islamic or Ismaili theology you employ - cannot bring enlightenment, liberation to the followers who "believe" in him. If people insist it does then it is just a deception.

Few more questions and the idea is not to get you involved in a discussion for long as I know you keep out of those. Its just that your answer was very thought provoking and interesting as well. What are your thoughts about hadith literature. Would you consider it to be the same, a cult-like literature? What about the verses of Quran? They were "techncally" spoken words of Mohammad (PBUH) so do they fall in the category of "an idea" since no one saw Gabriel deliver them from the Almighty? And if muslims believe in Quran on the basis of spoken words of Mohammad (PBUH) would that be considered a "cult-like behavior? If so then the whole hadith literature as well as Quran becomes a cult literature. What Abu Bakr said was told by Prophet Mohammad, right?

If a silent Book can bring enlightenment and liberation to masses, if you agree, then why not its teachers (Mohammad and Ali). Is the Book free of its teacher?

[Muslim First]

Not sure about your statement "Cult of Ali".

Pardesi Bhai

You will not understand it at all.

[Muslim First]

You still got time MF. Get with the program.

Pardesi Bhai

Guidance came to Prophet from allah SWT. It is in Qur'an and his sunnah. Hz Ali RA followed both to T.

He prayed Salaat and led Salaat when he was amir for six years. He did not change a "." in it. So those who do it is with the program. Those who do not are not following it.

Take care my friend. I am still looking for logical answer to how did Hz Ismail became Imam when he died before Imam Jafar?

Let us stick with Namaaz.

[Humsafar]

Pardesi, I'm sure you can deduce my answer from my post above. In any case, I've answered these questions quite a few times before. You'll have to look up my past posts. In short, though, when you idoise a book or a person you tend to objectify it. Then that perosn/text becomes an object of reverence and worship. In actual fact the book and the person are just symbols pointing to the truth that is larger than themselves, but at conventional level nobody cares about the truth but instead get caught up in the endless exegesis and controversies of what the book said and the person said - hadiths, tafsirs and all the rest of it.

Yes, you cannot separate the book from the teacher but they are in themselves not the truth. They are, as Buddhists would say, the finger pointing to the moon, don't mistake them for the moon itself.

[Humsafar]

MF, you conveniently ignored "cult of namaz" .

[pardesi]

Thank you brother Humsafar,

I may not fully agree with your statement but I do read your posts with great interest and respect. You have the right to come to a conclusion according to your understanding and beliefs. And so do the rest of us.

Thank you again. Always a pleasure, unlike.......

Pardesi.