Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"

[pardesi]

I am starting a new thread to take the discussion away from the other threads that have been manipulated by some Wahhabis to make it lose its meaning and purpose. Brother Aarif asked some very idiotic questions out of hatred towards Ismailis and has left no stone unturned to inject venum into the previous thread Forum Rules under Islam today. In particular, those who are interested in following the discussion may go to page 5 of that thread to get the history. I am going to try and reproduce here some of Aarif's posts and mine and Znanwalla's answers from that thread if Admin will allow. I would like the Admin to closes all the other threads that have been derailed and reduced to childish activity.

Pardesi

[pardesi]

Re: Forum Rules
by Aarif on Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:58 pm

pardesi wrote:

Brother Aarif,

That one statement made me suspicious of your beliefs. You had said that you were a Bohra and then you made that statement. I can paste the whole conversation here if you like. The bottom line is you said what you actually believed and I will always remind you about it.

Aarif's comments:
I give a damn about your suspicions... And yes you are absolutely right. Since, I do not believe in YOUR hazar Imam and I was very specifically trying to hint about his contribution to Islam when I made the above qoute, I do not believe in Prophet and other imams. I know we are dealing with Ismailis and sense is the last thing that makes sense but than this is way out of the line. Please do not expect any more explanation from me on this anymore since it will only involve more and more exposure of your current Imam who's contribution to Islam is a big ZERO.

Pardesi's comments:
Hazar Imam is "Hazar" for those who believe in his Imamat. However, I have tried to make you understand our beliefs in Imamat but you refuse to engage. For us Islam begins with Allah and his Prophets continued to guide the believers and when the last of the Prophets left this world he appointed an Imam to continue the teaching and guidance. This "Hazar" Imam is from that same line of Imams that the Prophet left behind, unfortunately you guys failed to get with the program.

Aarif's reply:
If that is the case than why was your hazar Imam chosen as the Imam instead of his father??? Now let's debate this. Was allah's noor missing in his father who was the rightous candidate for Imamat or he was not from the prophet's lineage??????

For the rest of your post its again 3 A4 size pages without much substance and makes no sense to me...

Now getting back to debate, I posted one qoute by Meherally. Let me post it again.. Can you please explain this in light of Islam and Quran???

The Ismailis are not instructed to offer the Islamic Salaah, observe Saum or perform Hajj. They have replaced Salaah with certain shirk-infested Dua'as (thrice a day). They are told that their Hajj is a personal "Glimpse" (Deedaar) of Karim Aga Khan.


So now I have asked you two questions:

1) Why was your hazar Imam chosen as the Imam instead of his father???
2) Can you logically refute Meherally's qoute in the light of Islam and Quran???

Awating your response..

[pardesi]

Re: Forum Rules
by pardesi on Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:58 pm

Aarif wrote:

I give a damn about your suspicions...

Pardesi:
Tell me something new.

Aarif:
... your current Imam who's contribution to Islam is a big ZERO...

Pardesi:
Its a matter of opinion. The REAL scholars differ with you.

Aarif:
.... why was your hazar Imam chosen as the Imam instead of his father??? ...... Was allah's noor missing in his father who was the rightous candidate for Imamat or he was not from the prophet's lineage??????

Pardesi:
Let me answer this by the only way you would understand. Why did Prophet Mohammad not appoint Abu Bakr as Imam? It is only the prerogative of an Imam to appoint the next Imam as he sees best. There is no candidacy involved. You are again confusing it with Khilafat. If you believe in any Imams, which you said you don't, this is how it has been done and no one knows who is the right person to fit that criteria. Allah's noor is not present in the whole family from birth, it only transfers from one Imam to the next and the only precondition is that he has to be a male subject (immediate or remote) from his progeny whether he is a son or a grandson. Obviously the previous Imam wanted the current Imam on the seat of Imamat after him and hence he bypassed his own son who died within a couple of years of his father's demise. There was another son that lived until very recently and worked with the UN most of his adult life. He was not appointed Imam either. I have told you earlier that you have not understood the concept of Imamat and that is why we want any debate over Imams or Imamat to start with Quran and the final ayats of Quran as revealed so you have a better understanding. You could also look up the "last will" of previous Imam on the internet which may better explain his decision to bypass his son.

Aarif:
For the rest of your post its again 3 A4 size pages without much substance and makes no sense to me...

Pardesi:
What can I say, I am thorough. I can only take the donkey to the lake. Now whose fault is it if you don't want to drink?

Aarif:
Now getting back to debate, I posted one qoute by Meherally. Let me post it again.. Can you please explain this in light of Islam and Quran???

The Ismailis are not instructed to offer the Islamic Salaah, observe Saum or perform Hajj. They have replaced Salaah with certain shirk-infested Dua'as (thrice a day). They are told that their Hajj is a personal "Glimpse" (Deedaar) of Karim Aga Khan.

Can you logically refute Meherally's qoute in the light of Islam and Quran???

Pardesi:
Yes I can and I have extended an invitation to you three times already. First you have to explain what is "logical". Then pick a topic, any topic. Next you will not be in a judge's seat. You will not abuse my faith and I will extend the same courtesy. You will not defame or abuse my Imam or his family and I will spare yours. And last, you will not walk out in the middle of the debate. If these are acceptable to you then I will ask you a few questions and if I find you worthy based on your answers, then we can start debating in a separate thread. Please come prepared. Otherwise look up the forums for discussion that has already taken place on this exhaustive topic. I don't think the admin would appreciate us debating on this when you can search for your answers right here on these forums.

[pardesi]

Re: Forum Rules
by znanwalla on Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:43 pm

brother Pardesi...

I have already responded to his so called maherally quotes effectively and I have delved extensively on the subject of Hajj; Saum and false accusations of Shirk and they could not even respond to me....if they so wish I will do so again provided my postings are not deleted as then it becomes a waste of time .......and as for why the Imam chose his grandson over his own son, the answer is simple....they should read the "doctrine of Imamat: by Imam Jafar as Sadiq...it is clear as crystal for all to read and know instead of wasting time asking irrelevant questions on the net and showing their ignorance !

Nass is a divinely decreed authority and is not based on any "political" claims but is done through NASS. It is besteowed upon a chosen person from the family and Imamat is transferred through an explicit NASS and so is restricted on the basis of this NASS, through all political circumstances to a definite individual amongst the descendants of Hazrat Ali and Bibi Fatima as Zahara whether the Imam claims a temporal rule for himself or not.

As Imam Jafar as Sadiq puts it...." Imamat is a covenant between God and mankind and recognition of the Imam of the Imam is an absolute duty.."

Also WE follow the Nur e Imamah and NOT the physical forms of the Imam ! The Nur e Imamah is the same ! It equates to the "ROPE" of Allah which Allah says to hold fast onto !

The issue raised thus is irrelevant...In one tradition it has been stated..." God delgated to the Imams spiritual rulership over the world which must always have such a leader and guide. Even if two men were left upon the face of this earth, one of them would be an Imam as his guidance may be needed..." (IIM Vol 8 - # 1)

[pardesi]

Re: Forum Rules
by Aarif on Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:25 pm

Pardesi:
Its a matter of opinion. The REAL scholars differ with you.

Aarif:
Sure they must be Ismaili scholers. I already know a couple of them on this forum

Pardesi:
Why did Prophet Mohammad not appoint Abu Bakr as Imam?

Aarif:
There is lot of controversy related to this topic so I would say you have cleverly chosen a wrong example. This has no relevance with my question. And remember that hazrat Abu Bakar was not son of the prophet unlike your Imam's father. And now since you have already started irritating me by evading the question with your usual BS let me take this opportunity to tell you that this scenario is a good example of where I would want to walk away from the debate... Anyways since you have come up with this explaination of passing of noor from one Imam to another, can you prove this in the light of Quran?? I mean does Quran talk about this passing of noor from one human being to another??? Because I strongly feel that if that was going to be the case than such a important thing would have been definitely mentioned in Quran.

Pardesi:
What can I say, I am thorough. I can only take the donkey to the lake. Now whose fault is it if you don't want to drink?

Aarif:
hmm.. Looks like definition of an Ismaili. This is more like a self realization coming from you in your own words..

Pardesi:
Yes I can and I have extended an invitation to you three times already. First you have to explain what is "logical".

Aarif:
Explaining logic to an Ismaili is a Herculean task but I will try. By logic (in context of our debate) what I mean is in the light of Quran and Islam. E.g. the prophet (PBUH) never claimed himself as noor of allah or anything like that... He always referred to himself as messenger of allah... Now if the prophet himself never made any claims like that how did your Imam aquired noor of allah?? This is a logical question (if you understand).

Pardesi:
Then pick a topic, any topic.

Aarif:
I have already picked up the topic... And remember I am not looking for your own answers. I am looking for explaination in light of Quran and Islam... If you have not understood my questions please ask and I will explain again...

[pardesi]

In response to Aarif's post
by Aarif on Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:25 pm

Pardesi:
Why did Prophet Mohammad not appoint Abu Bakr as Imam?

Aarif:
There is lot of controversy related to this topic so I would say you have cleverly chosen a wrong example. This has no relevance with my question.

Aarif read this now and enjoy.....Imams are not elected nor do they self appoint themselves...the Quran makes several references to the Noor and the Manifestation itself. Infact our very existence also is also a proof of this Noor !

[Shakir 24:35] Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp is in a glass, (and) the glass is as it were a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive-tree, neither eastern nor western, the oil whereof almost gives light though fire touch it not-- light upon light-- Allah guides to His light whom He pleases, and Allah sets forth parables for men, and Allah is Cognizant of all things.

[Yusufali 24:35] Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The Parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His Light: Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things.

[Pickthal 24:35] Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light. Allah guideth unto His light whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in allegories, for Allah is Knower of all things.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 24:35]

The great mystery of existence, its eternal origin and infinite permanence is described in the most comprehensive and eloquent parable of light, which contains layer upon layer of allegorical comparisons to make apparent to man the purpose of the great author of the universe.
The performance of light is to manifest. It is Allah who manifests the universe. The human beings can only think of the factors of the spiritual world in terms of the phenomenal experience obtainable through physical senses; and in the phenomenal world light is the purest thing known to man.

Due to the limitations of human experience man cannot see the real light but perceive only the lighted objects. . It is dependent upon some source external to itself...The perfect light of Allah is free from any such defects. It prevails everywhere. It envelops everything. It is independent of time and space. The niche (mishkat) is the recess in the wall, high from the ground in the house. The divine light, according to the parable, is placed high above everything, all that which has been created, the whole universe. The lamp is the core of the real illumination. It is placed inside a glass which protects it from any outside interference or disturbance (refer to Saff: .

The illumination shines bright like a star. In this world, governed by the laws of cause and effect, it becomes natural to know what makes the lamp burn, as no lamp burns without oil. So to give man the idea of causative factor of the generation of light, it is said that the oil of the blessed tree of olive keeps the lamp alive. It is said that after the great flood, the olive tree was the first to grow on the earth. This mystic olive is not localised. It is neither of the east nor of the west. It is universal like the light of Allah.

The light of wisdom (the Quran) in the heart of the Holy Prophet is as protected as the lamp in the glass. Verses 77 to 79 of al Waqi-ah clearly state that the Quran is a protected book; and no one can touch it save the thoroughly purified, the Ahl ul Bayt, according to the verse 33 of Ahzab. Therefore the true interpretation of "light upon light" is the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt. It is further made clear in the next verse.

For "Allah guides whom He wills to His light" see the commentary of al Baqarah: 256 and 257-he who believes in Allah, indeed, has taken hold of the firmest handhold (or rope) which will not break off. Allah brings them out of the darkness into light-It is obvious that those who are guided unto His light are the thoroughly purified ones. They alone are the manifestations of the real light. Those who follow these reflection of the divine light receive guidance from the grace of Allah to the extend or degree of their sincere attachment to them. Salman was the only companion of the Holy Prophet who achieved the distinction of becoming one of the Ahl ul Bayt.

The Holy Prophet said:
"My Ahl ul Bayt are like the ark of Nuh. Whosoever sails on it is safe, and whosoever holds back shall perish."

Nubuwwah and imamah, jointly or separately, are the most perfect guidance unto the light of Allah. Allah Himself chooses and appoints the guide, but His choice is not arbitrary. There are conditions which have to be fulfilled. Refer to the commentary of al Baqarah: 124. When Allah appointed Ibrahim as an Imam after testing his faith and awareness, for the whole mankind, he requested Allah to continue this august office in his progeny. Allah agreed to do so, but "it is a covenant which shall not reach the unjust (zalim)" was added. According to verse 13 of Luqman polytheism is the greatest injustice (zulm), therefore as explained in detail in the commentary of al Baqarah: 124 the Ahl ul Bayt of the Holy Prophet was the only group which never worshipped any ghayrallah. Those who had worshipped idols at any time in their lives could not be chosen as Imams at all, but after becoming Muslims if they had accepted the Imams of the Ahl ul Bayt as their guides, and followed them, then, according to the degree of their sincerity and awareness, they are entitled to occupy suitable position in the journey towards the enlightenment available from the light of Allah. Mere verbal profession of faith in Allah without attachment to the Ahl ul Bayt is as bad as hypocrisy.

The existence of the supreme being has been compared to light in order to make human intellect understand a great attribute of Allah, otherwise He is the inconceivable absolute who has created the light. Light is His manifestation. It is not His being.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

To know the proper application of ayah al Nur the following points should be kept in view:
(i) It is a parable.

(ii) A parable implies several applications corresponding to various aspects.

(iii) The light should be understood in its widest sense, as a self-evident being which is evident by itself, and through which other beings become evident.

(iv) The light emanating from a source may pass through transparent or opaque mediums. Generally it is not serviceable when it passes through an opaque medium but is profitable when it goes through a transparent medium.

Transparent mediums have different degrees of transparency. Better conductivity depends on the degree of refinement and purification of the medium.
There may be a source or cause which produces the light. It may also be self-illuminating .

(vii) Usually light proceeding from a source illuminates a particular area, leaving other areas unlighted.

(viii) The source of the light, in this verse, is not localised. It is neither of the east nor the west-not any particular area or direction. See my note in Maryam: 16 to 40.

(ix) The parable is applicable to the process of creation as well as to guidance and also to legislation in order to regulate human behaviour both as an individual and as a member of society.

(x) Light as a symbol of guidance is one of the attributes of Allah. It is manifested in both the realms of creation and legislation.

Allah is the light through which every created being comes into evidence, and every being is guided toward the destination where it should reach. To reach to the destination of salvation, bliss and satisfaction it has to do that which guidance points out.

In every realm and sphere there is a point in which the light of creation or guidance manifests itself originally, and then illuminates the surroundings. Niche {mishtat) refers to this "point" as the exalted holy place chosen for the manifestation of Allah's name and attributes. There should be an entity whose cognitive self becomes the focus of light. Such entities have been pointed out clearly in Ahzab: 33 and Ali Imran: 61 as the first and the foremost in receiving the light of existence in the arc of descent and the-last in the arc of ascent. In the realm of creation they are the best entities or "points" in which the light of creation manifested itself originally. In the realm of legislation and guidance too they are the best models.

If applied to any individual the niche is the power of expression and the "house" (in which the niche is situated) is the body.

If applied to the group of the Ahl ul Bayt and the prophets, the niche in the house is the Holy Prophet.

The divine light passed through the purest transparent chain of prophets, without any detour, and manifested itself in its full glory in the Holy Prophet, to illuminate the human society for ever.

All the mediums-lamp, glass etcetera-which are the various stages between the original source and the final spreading of the light should be of the highest transparency so as not to affect the purity of light passing through them. It implies that the minds, hearts, loins and wombs of the ancestors of the Holy Prophet were free from the dirt of polytheism.

The house in which the niche always remained is described in verse 36. There always exists a group of persons whose hearts and minds are fully occupied with the remembrance of Allah.

The niche is the source of light, and the oil of the blessed tree is a pure "light above light". There is not a slightest trace of darkness. Darkness or evil exists outside the sphere of the houses in which the niche is located and cannot enter into it.

Also refer to the commentary of al Baqarah: 275; Nisa: 175 ; Ma-idah: 1 5 and Yunus: 87.


Pardesi:
Yes I can and I have extended an invitation to you three times already. First you have to explain what is "logical".

Aarif:
Explaining logic to an Ismaili is a Herculean task but I will try. By logic (in context of our debate) what I mean is in the light of Quran and Islam. E.g. the prophet (PBUH) never claimed himself as noor of allah or anything like that... He always referred to himself as messenger of allah... Now if the prophet himself never made any claims like that how did your Imam aquired noor of allah?? This is a logical question (if you understand).

Pardesi:
The Prophet did not have to claim what he was bestowed with by Allah. You really do not have any knowledge of Quran, do you? Noor is not a physical form. It is an infinite form used as a medium for divine guidance for "whomsoever Allah pleases". Are you implying that Prophet was not Noor of Allah? Are you saying he was a mere "bashar"?

Check out the following. You wanted not my answers rather arguments based on Quran and Islam, right? Here it is. These are from your Sunni sources as well as Quran.

"Here I write down some proofs that our Holy Prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam was not only a bashar but he was a noor too. These examples have been written in order to make it easy to understand otherwise Allah Almighty is beyond the examples.

Hazrat Ibn-e-Abbas (Allah is well pleased with him) cousin of the holy prophet (Allah's Grace and Peace be upon Him) says in the commentary of the verse 35 from chapter 24: Sura Noor. "The similitude of the Noor (Light) of Allah is Noor (light) of the Holy Prophet (Allah's Grace and Peace be upon Him), when he was in the backs of ancestors". (Tafseer-e-Ibne Abbas page 372)

Now I am giving you the names of the books in which this hadith has been narrated. Allama Ibne Hagar hatiami wrote in his book that the hadith, "Undoubtedly Allah Almighty created the "Noor of Prophet Muhammad (Allah's grace and Peace be upon Him) before every thing", has been narrated by Imam Abdur Razzaq in his book of hadith (Fatawa -e- Hadithia, page 289) There are many other great ulemas who have narrated this hadith in their books , I am writing for you the names of few books with their writers :

1. Allama Hassan -bin- Muhammad Diyar Becri, "Tarekh -ul- Khamees".
2. Shah Abdul Haq Muhaddith Dehlvi, "Madarig-un-Nabuwwah" Vol 2, page 2
3. Allama Zarqani, "Sherha Movahib", vol. 1, page 55
4. Allama Abdul Ghani, " Al Hadiqa tul Ndiyah", Vol. 2, page 375"


Want more? Here, feast on it:

"Once Hazrat Jaabir (radi Allahu anhu) asked the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) whom Allah Ta'ala created before anything else. The Holy Prophet Muhammad (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) stated: "O Jaabir! Verily, before the creation of anything else Almighty Allah created the Noor of your Nabi from His Noor." (Muwahibul Laduniya; Zirkani Shareef)"


And some more food for your illiterate thoughts:


Noor is a light on its own and also gives light to others. The meaning that will be taken for noor will be that which is apparent and makes apparent. For this same reason the Prophets are called noor. They are guided and they are the medium for others to get guidance. In the Dua اللهم اجعلنى نورا the same is meant. The names Noorudeen, Noorulislam, Noorullah are kept with the same purpose. Noor comes in the Qur'an for guidance just as Dhulmat (darkness) comes for going astray. Allah Ta'ala says in the Qur'an:

اومن كان ميتا فاحييناه وجعلنا له نورا يمشى به فى الناس كمن مثله فى الظلمات ليس بخارج منها

He who is dead, then We granted him life and gave him a light by which he may walk among people better than someone like him who is a multitude of darkness from which he will not come out?(Al-Anaam-122)

For something to be noor does not mean that it cannot be human also. If this was the case then it would not be correct for a human to make this Dua اللهم اجعلنى نورا, because it would mean, O Allah take me out of the fold of humanity.
Rasullah (Sallalahu Alaihi Wasallam) was human as well as noor. Allah Ta'ala says in the Qur'an:

Say (O Muhammad) I'm verily a human like yourselves. (Al-Kahf-110)
"And had WE made him the Prophet (an angel), WE would have certainly made him a man and disguised him before them in garments like their own" (6:9)....
Allah Ta'ala say in the Qur'an:

‎Verily came to you from Allah noor and the clear book. (Al-Maidah-15)

Many Mufassireen (Commentators of the Qur'an) have stated that by noor here is meant Rasullah (Sallalahu Alaihi Wasallam). The Prophet was noor. He was guidance for the whole of mankind. Therefore, he was both noor and human.
To say that Rasullah (Sallalahu Alaihi Wasallam) is made of Noor or made from the noor of Allah and is not human is incorrect. Him being human is proven from the ayat of Qur'an."

Fatawa Mahmoodia (1:102) Maktaba Mahmoodia
Ahsan Al-Fatawa (1:56) H.M. Saeed Company


Aarif:
I have already picked up the topic... And remember I am not looking for your own answers. I am looking for explaination in light of Quran and Islam... If you have not understood my questions please ask and I will explain again...


Pardesi:
I hope I have answered your queries to your liking. I have used nothing but Quran and Islamic sources. I tell you what, I give you a chance to quit now or my next post is going to be even more complex and might destabilize your mental capacity.

[anajmi]

The beauty of the quran is that it explains itself. There are ayahs in the quran that can be easily understood and those which cannot be easily understood. Now, something as important as Imamat is supposedly placed in an ayah which according to puya ali is a parable which implies serveral applications corresponding to various aspects. It simply means that this concept of "imamat" has nothing to do with the Hazar Imam. Islam for the ordinary man is based on the clear ayahs in the quran. Those that go after these ayahs with parables to display their own eliteness are those with darkness in their hearts. From the clear ayahs in the quran, the Ismailis will find nothing to support their claims.

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

Your arguments are incompetent and frivolous ! either you understand the Quran correctly and effectively or you haven't understood anything and there is nothing like "ordinary" or "elite" (to use your own terminology).....the "haziril maujood" is conclusively supported by the Quran - save that the blind and the seeing cannot be equal !

5: 18 Wherewith Allah guideth all Who seek His good pleasure To ways of peace and safety, And leadeth them out Of darkness, by His Will, Unto the light,- guideth them To a Path that is Straight.

2: 17 Their similitude is that of a man Who kindled a fire; When lighted all around him, Allah took away their light And left them in utter darkness, So they could not see.
2: 18 Deaf, dumb, and blind, They will not return (to the path).

2: 20 The lightning all but snatches away Their light; every time light (Helps) them,they walk therein, And when the darkness grows on them, They stand still. And if Allah willed, He could take away their faculty of hearing and seeing; For Allah hath power over all things.

7:182 Those who reject Our Signs, We shall gradually visit with punishment, in ways They perceive not......"

6: 33 We know indeed the grief Which their words so cause thee: It is not thee they reject: It is the Signs of Allah, Which the wicked condemn.

Ta'wil of word 'Imâm' (Guide): and this is "Hazar Imam" - The Ever Living and one who is Present !

"The following hadith is about the virtues of the Qur'an: "Indeed, everything has a heart and the heart of the Qur'an is Yâ-Sin (Surah 36)" (Trimidhi, V, 162). One main reason for this title of Yâ-Sin is that the Treasure of the treasures of God is mentioned in it, which is: "And We have encompassed everything in the MANIFEST Imam." (36:12). That is, God enfolds the universe in the living and present Imam and also unfolds it from him." [Source: Tawil 106: A Thousand Wisdoms]

It is you who is living in darkness ! Not the ismailis !....they are sitting on the Noah's Ark ! Cheers !

zn

[znanwalla]

Najmi...How can you even understand or know the beauty of the noble Quran? You do not even have Allah's Book, to begin with !

We have proved this many times over ! unless you are talking about the "beauty' of your own version or text ! ....so where is the comparison? there is none between what you have and the one which is Allah's Book and the prophet has said loudly and clearly that Ali and I are from the same NOOR ! Ali's flesh is my own and vice versa !....It is Ali all the way ! After Ali it was Ali and after him it was still Ali !...."And trust in the Living One who dieth not.." !!!...can one compare wasps v/s caterpillars ?..zn

[znanwalla]

"And We have encompassed everything in a Manifest Imam." (36:12). That is, all spiritual and intellectual subtle things of the kingdom of God can be found gathered and enfolded in the Manifest Imam, provided someone recognizes himself or herself." [Source: Tawil 732: A Thousand Wisdoms]

enjoy...

Ali Mowla Mowla ! wah ! Ali Mowla Mowla !!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9_3zOwEIA

[anajmi]

Yes I agree with you. Ali was a great person. I am a follower of Hazrat Ali. Just like Hazrat Ali, I worship Allah and not some human who needs to eat and pass gas and attend nature's call and then clean himself up. Hazrat Ali worshipped no human. He understood the concept of shirk better than any humand and some of those that have misunderstood him and have started worshipping him and others who claim to be from his lineage without any evidence.

[znanwalla]

You are a "follower" of Ali in what way? Many like you consider him just a caliph and that too the 4th in line ! That is not the following of the Sh'ia of Ali, if I may say so....so first declare what way and then I can say more in this regard....zn

[pardesi]

School's out ! Go home Anajmi. You will never understand and therefore will always be in the dark. No concession speech needed from you. We understand.

[anajmi]

I am actually sitting on my computer at home, thank you very much. ....Well, I am sure some Ismaili will misinterpret, so let me clarify, I am actually sitting on my chair, directly across from my computer screen and not actually sitting on the computer.

You are a "follower" of Ali in what way?

That is an interesting question. How many different ways are there of following Hazrat Ali?

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

Most of you don't understand Tawhid ! I think brother Pardesi's article is quite enlightening to begin with and logical !

Your arguments are frivolous and based on your own surmises and opinion....there is no juristic or theological merit whatsoever in what you are saying....you do not understand that God does not give birth but HE perpetually creates and manifests - HE is a treasure ! HE created because HE wants to be worshipped !....so what was the very first thing HE - the Exalted created ? please tell us !

What and where is your relativity ? even the text you have is not Allah's Book !so give us some insight huh !

You belong to a group that remains confined to practices of the exoteric side of the shari'at. And so people like you seem to force the Intellect to promote a doctrine in which you all blindly imitate your ancestors, cunningly deducing arguments for its validity and devising excuses for absurdities and contradictions which your doctrine entails and hence there is so much divergence amongst yourselves and this in itself is sufficient proof that you do not have "muallim i sadiq" and so whilst you try to depend on "reason" there are others who depend on reason and "ta'lim"...

Even folks like you who are depending on their reasoning are divided into different schools whereas those like us who depend on instructions also are not and so if you do not understand us then frankly it is expected as folks with your type of doctrines have difficulty recognizing realities and you pursue blind "taqlid" of a particular stand and so the recognition of the "haqq" - the knowledge of the origin - the return (mabda wa ma'ad) is lacking and you are all standing on shaky foundations as you seem to thus blunder and you speak according to your own conjectures and whims, using your own reasoning to arrive at knowledge of God which is NOT within your scope without the Imam !....so be happy and practice your belief ! We may not be on the same page, if I may say so !...

I am the one who asked you a simple question ! do you follow Ali as an Imam? or as a caliph? or neither? you are the one who once again started off by making some misleading claims and then used some conjectures for which , ofcourse, you are well known....so don't ask me ! You answer my question ....or don't bother if you don't have an answer because you are not knowledgeable about islam....infact it was Areef who was boasting today that he was waiting for a reply....looks like he must be on vacation huh? wanted an answer from an islamic point of view huh? as if you think we don't have answers ?....like I said, go and learn Quran....you know nothing pal !

zn

[anajmi]

Hazrat Ali was 4th Caliph of Muslims. That is a fact that cannot be changed, doesn't matter how hard one tries to change it. There is no question of "believing" it. It is like asking a human with a head to believe that he has a head. Ofcourse, there are some, as we know, who do not have a head but that is besides the point. Was Hazrat Ali an Imam? Absolutely. That is another undeniable fact. He was Ameerul Mumineen. He was the Imam. He was the leader.

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

Yes he was - so if you simply "believe" him as a 4th caliph then our belief is not the same as yours and that is why don't try and sound on this board as if you follow Ali ! You don't !....because the moment he became the 4th caliph, your ancestors rebelled against him !....and so I would never accept any kind of submission from your end other than the fact that you have no regard whatsoever for him....so don't even try and pretend !...take your pretense elsewhere !...zn

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

You say he was an Imam ! whose Imam? Yours? Nah ! that is your hypocrisy Pal !

2:181 If any one changes the bequest After hearing it, The guilt shall be on those Who make the change. For Allah hears and knows All things.

and so those who betray their trust betray it only against themselves ! disobedience to the prophet is disobedience to Allah ! disobedience to Ali as the Olil Amr is disobedience to the Prophet and thus to Allah ! Your words mean nothing ! They are worthless ! You sold your faith for a pittance ! you think yiou can convince me ? my head is not empty ....your upper chambers are retarded and deficient !

Recitation of the Holy Qur'an means to read it correctly, to understand its meaning and to act upon it. You have failed miserably !

2: 6 As to those who reject Faith, It is the same to them Whether thou warn them Or do not warn them; They will not believe.

2: 7 Allah hath set a seal On their hearts and on their hearing, And on their eyes is a veil; Great is the penalty they (incur).

Anyone who claims he follows Ali and not the rest of the Imams is a Munafiqun and the Quran has allocated an entire sura for such folks ! enjoy ! it is for you !

zn

[turbocanuck]

Znan.......Wasn't long ago that these Hypocrites defended Zakir Naik, the Supreme Fascist of our times for bestowing an RA after taking Yezid's name!! Can you believe their Hypocrisy? That was the Murderer of Imam Hussain, the grandson Of our Beloved Prophet Muhammad!! and they took his name (Yezid's) with respect?? How could they live with themselves? But then again, they are predisposed with traits of Abu Jahil, what else can one expect?

[Muslim First]

Usage of the word Imam in the QURAN

In what follows we will investigate how the word Imam and its plural A’immah have been used in the QURAN. From the way Allah has used the word in the QURAN it will then be seen whether the Shiite concept of Imamah that has been explained above, finds any sort of QURANIC support.

A book

The word imam recurs 7 times in the QURAN, while its plural form, a’immah, appears 5 times. In 3 of these cases it refers explicitly to a book:

And before it was the Book of Moosa, a guide and a mercy. (Hud : 17)

And before it was the Book of Moosa, a guide and a mercy.
(al-Ahqaf : 12)

Verily, we will restore the dead to life, and we write that which they sent forth, and that which they left behind; and of everything we have taken account in a Clear Book. (Yasin : 12)

The champions of kufr

In another 2 cases it refers to the champions of kufr:

Fight the leaders of kufr. (at-Tawbah : 12)

And We made them leaders who call towards the Fire.
(al-Qasas : 41)

A road

One reference is to a clearly discernible road:

And verily, the two (cities) lie next to a clear road. (al-Hijr : 79)

Leadership of the Israelites

In the remaining six places where the word is used, it is used in terms of its literal meaning, i.e. leadership. In Surah al-Ambiya’ it is stated:

We said: O fire, be cool and (a means of ) safety unto Ibrahim. And they planned against him; but We made them the greater losers. And We delivered him and Lut to the land which We blessed for the nations. And We gave him Ishaq, and Ya‘qub as an additional gift; and all of them We made righteous men. And We made them leaders who guide by Our command; and We revealed to them the doing of good, the establishment of prayer and the giving of alms. And they were men who served Us. (al-Ambiya’ : 69-73)

In this extract, which had to be extended somewhat in order that the reader may see the full context in which the word a’immah is used, one clearly sees its association with the function of the Ambiya’ as the leaders of men, who guide them towards Allah. This unequivocal identification of a’immah as Ambiya’ leads us to conclude that the reference in Surah as-Sajdah too, is to the Ambiya’, and not to any other category of men:

Indeed, We gave Musa the Book, so be not in doubt about meeting him; and We made it a (source of) guidance for the Children of Isra’il. And We made from amongst them leaders who guided by Our command, when they persevered. And they had full certainty in Our signs. (as-Sajdah : 23-24)

Even if the scope of a’immah in this verse were to be extended to include people other than the Ambiya’, there is nothing to justify its identification with the elaborate doctrine of Imamah as conceived of by the shia.

In a third verse Allah speaks of His plans for the oppressed Israelites in Egypt:

And We wished to be gracious to those who were oppressed in the land, and to make them leaders, and to make them heirs. (al-Qasas : 5)

In order to see who the word a’immah refers to in this verse one only has to look at the persons in whom this divine wish came to fulfilment. It was primarily in Nabi Musa and the other prophet-kings of Bani Isra’il like Nabi Dawud and Nabi Sulayman ‘alayhimus salam that the leadership referred to in this verse, came to be vested. If at times they were ruled by men other than the Ambiya’, the status of those leaders was never seen to be superior to the rank of the Ambiya’. Verses like the above three, apart from dealing specifically with the Ambiya’ of Bani Isra’il, are not in the least indicative of the existence of a rank like that of Imamah as conceived of by the shia.

Leadership of the pious

There remain three places where the word imam is mentioned in the QURAN. In one of these three places Allah speaks of the prayer of His exemplary worshippers:

(They are) those who say: Our Lord, grant us the coolness of (our) eyes in our wives and children, and make us leaders of the pious. (al-Furqan : 74)

This verse speaks of normal people who do not belong to a special class like the Ambiya’, asking Allah to make them imams, in the sense of paragons of virtue, whose example others would strive to emulate. It is very obvious that it cannot refer to a group of "divinely appointed Imams", for the reason that the Imams’ elevation to the rank of Imamah is not on account of their prayers. Since their appointment, like that of the Ambiya’, is supposedly divine in origin, it not attainable by any amount of exertion or devotion.

It is interesting to note that this verse proved to be so unpalatable to certain of the early shia that they declared it to have been corrupted. The following narration appears in the tafsir of ‘Ali ibn Ibrahim al-Qummi, the teacher of Abu Ja‘far al-Kulayni:

It was read to Abu ‘Abdillah (i.e. Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq):

And make us leaders of the pious.

He said: "It would be an enormous thing for them to ask Allah to make them Imams of the pious." [The Shiite concept of an Imam is intended, of course, since the Imams are appointed, and no one can become an Imam by praying for it.]

Someone enquired: "How was it then revealed, O son of Rasoolullaah?"

He replied: 'It was revealed:

...and make for us leaders from amongst the pious.18

This narration, documented in a tafsir of great repute amongst the early tafsirs of the shia, (a tafsir, in fact, that is described by its twentieth century editor as being "in reality the commentary of the Imams al-Baqir and as-Sadiq,"19 and each one of whose narrators is regarded as reliable and credible by Shiite hadith experts,20 which vouches for its authenticity by Shiite standards) obviates the need for further discussion around the meaning of the word Imam as it appears in this ayah.

On the Day of Judgement

There remains one place in the QURAN where the word Imam is used. It is in Surah al-Isra’ where Allah Ta‘ala says:

The day when we will call all people by their leaders. (al-Isra’ : 71)

The Imam spoken of in this ayah is recognised by the mufassirun of the Ahl as-Sunnah as either the book of deeds or the prophet to whose Ummah the person belonged. The first meaning is preferred by Ibn Kathir,21 who mentions in support of his preference the ayah where the word Imam was used in the sense of a book (see above). This meaning is further supported by the rest of the ayah:

So those who are given their book in their right hand will read their books.

The second meaning also finds ample support in the QURAN. In another ayah Allah says:

How will it be when We bring forth from every Ummah a witness, and bring you (O Muhammad) as a witness over these? (an-Nisa’:41)

From the way in which the position of the Nabi sallallahu ‘alayhi wasallam is compared to the position of the "witnesses" of the other Ummahs we can only conclude that the reference is to the Ambiya. It therefore follows that those Ummahs will be called by the names of their Ambiya. Calling the Ummahs of the past by the names of the Ambiya who were sent to them is further a common thing in both the QURAN and the Sunnah. The ‘Ad, for example, are commonly referred to as "the people of Hud", just like Banu Isra’il are called "the people of Musa". Identifying the Imam mentioned in the ayah under discussion with the Ambiya is therefore warranted by both the QURAN and the Sunnah.

As for the claim of the shia that it refers to the Twelve Imams,22 this claim not only lacks QURANIC support, it also curtails the general scope of the ayah. The lack of QURANIC support is evident from the above discussion on the usage of the word Imam in the QURAN. The restriction of the general scope of the ayah arises from the chronological disparity between the times when the Twelve Imams lived, and the periods during which previous Ummahs flourished. If we say that all Ummahs will be called by the names of the Twelve Imams, then what about the Ummahs that existed before them? By whose name will they be called? After all, the ayah says that all people will be called by their leaders.

In addition, when for argument's sake we do assume that the reference is to the the Twelve Imams, we are left with a somewhat incongruous situation. Sayyiduna ‘Ali, the first of the Twelve Imams, died in the year 40. His son Sayyiduna Hasan died nine years later, in 49. If Sayyiduna ‘Ali is the Imam for the people of his time, Sayyiduna Hasan is left with only those people who were born during his nine years. All the other people of his time who were alive during his father's time will form part of his father's group, and not his. The tenure of the 3rd Imam lasted for 22 years; the 4th for 34 years; the 5th for 19 years; the 6th for 34 years; the 7th for 35 years; the 8th for 20 years; the 9th for 17 years; the 10th for 34 years; and the 11th for only 6 years. Suddenly, with the 12th Imam, the Awaited Mahdi, we have a tenure of Imamah that has been running for over 1200 years. The group that will supposedly be called by the name of the 11th Imam, for example, will only include people that were born during his Imamah that ran from 254 up to 260, while the numbers of those who will be called by the name of the 12th Imam will be practically incalculable.

Compare this incongruous scenario with the much more orderly and QURANIC system of having the various Ummahs called by the names of their Ambiya on the Day of Qiyamah, and the absurdity of using the 71st ayah of Surah al-Isra’ to substantiate the doctrine of Imamah as conceived of by the shia will be fully exposed. There can be no question that the word Imam in this ayah does not refer to the Twelve Imams.

SUMMARY

We have discussed here each and every place in the QURAN where the word Imam and its plural A’immah were used in the QURAN. It was demonstrated how Allah Ta‘ala used this word to refer variously to

a book (thrice)

the Champions of Kufr (twice)

a road (once)

the leaders of the Israelites

the leaders of the Pious

the Prophets or the Book

Any attempt by the shia to identify their idiosyncratic notion of Imamah with the Imamah of the QURAN is totally incongruous. The closest they could come to it would be to draw a similarity between their own Imamah and the leadership of the Israelites. However, such a similarity is immediately rejected when one considers that this leadership of the Israelites is clearly identified in the QURAN with the Ambiya of Bani Isra’il. The QURAN provides no grounds whatsoever to identify this leadership of the Israelites with anyone but the Ambiya. It is not uncommon to find the shia quoting verses such as the 5th verse of Surah al-Qasas to substantiate their belief of Imamah. If they only took the trouble of reading the verse in its proper context, without adding to it the excrescences of their own theology, they will see just how far fetched their identification of QURANIC Imamah with Shiite Imamah really is. In al-Qasas:5 for example, the reference is clearly to Musa and his people. Just how, one wonders, is that verse extended to Ali ibn Abi Talib and eleven persons from his progeny?

The attempt to draw a comparison between the QURANIC Leadership of the Pious and the Imamah of the shia is similarly fraught with problems. It has been seen above how this form of leadership is a favour sought from Allah by His ideal servants. The Imamah of the shia of the shia, on the other hand, is like Nubuwwah, divinely granted, and cannot be aspired to by any person. The utter lack of harmony between this form of leadership and Shiite Imamah is nowhere more clearly brought to light than in the authentically narrated saying of Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq which points at the corruption of the text of the QURAN at the hands of the SAHAABAH {radiyallahu ‘anhum} as the reason for the disparity.

The only other QURANIC meaning of the word Imam left to the shia is the one which refers to the Day of Qiyamah, when nations will be called by their "Imams". Is it possible that the word "Imam" here could be referring to the Shiite concept of Imamah? Unfortunately for the shia, once again that is not possible. It is not possible for two reasons:

Firstly, because a holistic reading of the immediately following verses, as well as of other verses of the QURAN point unmistakably to the fact that the Imamah spoken of here refers either to the Ambiya, by whose names nations are called not only in the Hereafter, but in the QURAN and Sunnah too, or to their books of deeds by which they will be called to account.

Secondly, because identifying the verse with the Shiite concept of Imamah leads to a very problematic distribution of nations for the various Imams.

In conclusion, in the usage of the word "ImAam" in the QURAN there is nothing whatsoever to support the belief of Imamah as conceived of by the shia.

http://allaahuakbar.net/shiites/quran_and_imamah.htm

[anajmi]

your ancestors rebelled against him !....

Actually my ancestors were sitting thousands of miles away. Besides, my ancestors were probably the same as your ancestors - unfortunately.

Now, you see, your arguments display the kind of ignorance and hatred that has caused the rift between the Muslims and those that pretend to be muslims.

Consider this statement by znan

You say he was an Imam ! whose Imam? Yours? Nah ! that is your hypocrisy Pal !

It is impossible for the Ismailis to accept the simple fact that I believe Hazrat Ali was the Imam, the Ameerul Mumineen and the 4th Caliph of the Muslim Ummah. If they accept this, their entire belief system created for the rule of some elite individuals, simply falls apart. They will fight to make people believe that the Muslims hate Hazrat Ali even though the truth is quite the opposite.

The reason for this is quite clear. They have an agenda to decalre Aga Khan as the Imam. In order to do that he has to linked to Hazrat Ali. If a person refuses to accept Aga Khan as this "Imam", then it becomes necessary for the Ismailis to show that this person does not accept Hazrat Ali either. If I accept Hazrat Ali, then I have to accept Aga Khan. Where did this condition come from? This was a fairy tale created by the power hungry and the corrupt.

They used those ayahs of the quran which the quran refers to as ambiguous to declare their right to power. Does anyone ever wonder why this major pillar of Islam (and the only pillar of Islam) was left in the ambiguous ayahs?

What does the quran say?

003.007
YUSUFALI: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Now the Ismailis will come back and say that those who are firmly grounded in knowledge also know their meanings. Even if we accept that, still, if these knowledgeable people follow the part that is allegorical then they are those in whose hearts is perversity. If you know the hidden meanings then use it for the benefit of mankind and not to further your own personal agenda of declaring yourself Ameerul Mumineen. If you are Ameerul Mumineen, then you are a big failure. As per your own misguided followers, most muslims are left with a corrupt quran, the sunnah of the prophet is corrupt. If Allah sent an Ameerul Mumineen, then he should be fixing these things which will help save the hereafter for a over a billion muslims.

In conclusion, this theory about Aga Khan being the Imam and one cannot follow Hazrat Ali without following Aga Khan is a lot of hogwash that belongs in the trashcan.

[anajmi]

Infact I would ask the Ismailis to shift their allegiance to Barack Hussain Obama. He is far more powerful than Aga Khan will ever be. Besides, Aga Khan can grab only 12.5% of what is left after Barack Hussain Obama grabs over 30% of the total. And Barack Hussain Obama will get it not just from Ismailis but from all Americans.

[pardesi]

Anajmi and MF,

It is not a secret how you guys feel about the leadership of Ummah after Mohammad (PBUH). Plastic surgery does not change the DNA neither does the blood transfusion.

The topic of this thread is "Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as NOOR". In his futile attempt to save face Anajmi brought up the whole issue of Imamat and has diverted attention from the topic. I opened up this separate thread only and only to answer to Aarif and although input is welcomed from others, the discussion should remain within the scope of the topic. Imamat is a topic I would love to join in but it would be nice if you guys open up a separate thread.

MF, what are your views on the subject of Prophet as Noor. I think Aarif needs your guidance or may be some spanking for putting your agenda in a compromising position!

[pardesi]

...Now the Ismailis will come back and say that those who are firmly grounded in knowledge also know their meanings. Even if we accept that, still, if these knowledgeable people follow the part that is allegorical then they are those in whose hearts is perversity. If you know the hidden meanings then use it for the benefit of mankind and not to further your own personal agenda of declaring yourself Ameerul Mumineen. If you are Ameerul Mumineen, then you are a big failure. As per your own misguided followers, most muslims are left with a corrupt quran, the sunnah of the prophet is corrupt. If Allah sent an Ameerul Mumineen, then he should be fixing these things which will help save the hereafter for a over a billion muslims.

In conclusion, this theory about Aga Khan being the Imam and one cannot follow Hazrat Ali without following Aga Khan is a lot of hogwash that belongs in the trashcan.

Anajmi,

You have indeed brought up an interesting issue. Your statement above in light of 3:7 deserves a discussion but on a separate thread. I will give you my 2 cents there. Thanks.

[anajmi]

pardesi,

From the ayah in question - 24:35 it is unclear if the prophet is referred to as Noor. Consider one part of that ayah

Allah guides to His light whom He pleases
Allah doth guide whom He will to His Light:
Allah guideth unto His light whom He will.

Now you can conclude that the light could refer to the prophet as those that were guided by the prophet were on the right path. This is a metaphor. Doesn't mean the Prophet was created from Noor or not. Either way, it doesn't matter. What was the guiding light used by the prophet? It was the quran, which still exists with us (well, most of us. For some it is hidden) guiding us to the right path.

Consider this ayah of the quran

002.257
YUSUFALI: Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).

And this ayah of the quran

003.184
YUSUFALI: Then if they reject thee, so were rejected messengers before thee, who came with Clear Signs, Books of dark prophecies, and the Book of Enlightenment.
PICKTHAL: And if they deny thee, even so did they deny messengers who were before thee, who came with miracles and with the Psalms and with the Scripture giving light.
SHAKIR: But if they reject you, so indeed were rejected before you messengers who came with clear arguments and scriptures and the illuminating book.

The book is referred to as -Kitabe Munir. -

So in conclusion the Noor is the message of Allah. Use it to be guided on to the straight path.

[Aarif]

[Shakir 24:35] Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp is in a glass, (and) the glass is as it were a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive-tree, neither eastern nor western, the oil whereof almost gives light though fire touch it not-- light upon light-- Allah guides to His light whom He pleases, and Allah sets forth parables for men, and Allah is Cognizant of all things.

Pardesi,

Thanks for the reply. Now let's proceed further. You have done the right thing by qouting Quran for the first time and I appreciate that. Now read the above translation carefully. What I understand is that ALLAH IS THE ONE who decides as to who receives his light and it is beyond the power of any human being to figure out that. So if Allah wishes he can pass his noor to any one of us depending upon his choice. Also, he is the one who will guide everyone to the right path. Because he is the one who knows the right path.

Now read your qoute from the other post

Allah's noor is not present in the whole family from birth, it only transfers from one Imam to the next and the only precondition is that he has to be a male subject (immediate or remote) from his progeny whether he is a son or a grandson.

Going by this can you please explain in the light of Quran where it talks about passing of Noor from one Imam to another and the condition of male subject etc.??? Honestly I am still trying to figure out the monopoly of your Imams over noor of allah.

Also, please do not use any other sources in this discussion as I would strictly like to go by Quran. You can pull any ayahs from Quran to make your point but I am not interested in other books and sources....

Once you answer these questions we will go to next level...

[Aarif]

[Shakir 24:35] Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp is in a glass, (and) the glass is as it were a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive-tree, neither eastern nor western, the oil whereof almost gives light though fire touch it not-- light upon light-- Allah guides to His light whom He pleases, and Allah sets forth parables for men, and Allah is Cognizant of all things.

Pardesi,

Thanks for the reply. Now let's proceed further. You have done the right thing by qouting Quran for the first time and I appreciate that. Now read the above translation carefully. What I understand is that ALLAH IS THE ONE who decides as to who receives his light and it is beyond the power of any human being to figure out that. So if Allah wishes he can pass his noor to any one of us depending upon his choice. Also, he is the one who will guide everyone to the right path. Because he is the one who knows the right path.

Now read your qoute from the other post

Allah's noor is not present in the whole family from birth, it only transfers from one Imam to the next and the only precondition is that he has to be a male subject (immediate or remote) from his progeny whether he is a son or a grandson.

Going by this can you please explain in the light of Quran where it talks about passing of Noor from one Imam to another and the condition of male subject etc.??? Honestly I am still trying to figure out the monopoly of your Imams over noor of allah. According to the above ayah posted by you ONLY ALLAH has the right to make this decision unless he has subcontracted this responsibility to the family of your Imams...

Also, please do not use any other sources in this discussion as I would strictly like to go by Quran. You can pull any ayahs from Quran to make your point but I am not interested in other books and sources....

Once you answer these questions we will go to next level...

[pardesi]

Aarif,

Since the topic of discussion is “can the Prophet be referred to as Noor” and since it was in response to your idiotic statement where you totally disregarded the Quran and the mufassareens’ view or acted just out of ignorance about our Prophet being Noor, I would like to limit the discussion to the subject only on this thread. You may join your fellow Wahhabis in another thread and post your questions there related to Imamat and the presence and transfer of Noor from one Imam to the next as believed by Shias in general and Ismailis in particular. I will join insha Allah.

Both are very complex issues and deserve complete focus. Although initially I tried to touch upon both in my post but realize that it would be better if we discuss them separately as otherwise it will provide ground for some to jump from one topic to another within the same thread and ultimately derail the whole discussion.

Now coming to the issue of Prophet being rightly referred to as the Noor, and after reading the rest of my post above, which you conveniently "forgot" to mention, do you still hold the same opinion and believe this whole “Noor business” to be just “mumbo jumbo” and “bs” as "someone" has referred to it as in the past?

Or, would you like to change your stand?

You must clarify your understanding of Noor. Like you took apart the Ayat of Noor I quoted and the way you presented it tells very little of your understanding. In general sense you are correct that Allah can give his noor to anyone if He so wishes but, if you stay within the context of this Ayat and not arrive at a self serving interpretation, Allah is speaking of His Self and how He manifests Himself so as to make the inspiration possible within the hearts of “certain” people whom He wishes to have the “knowledge”. The Shias believe those "certain" people to be the Prophets and the Imams from his "pure" progeny.

Do you think Noor exists? Did it exist in all 25 or so Prophets? What role does noor play? Do you think noor exists within humans and by extension within yourself?

First pass this level and then we will think about moving to the next level. I would like to weigh your mental capacity before going further.

Pardesi.

[Aarif]

Since the topic of discussion is “can the Prophet be referred to as Noor” and since it was in response to your idiotic statement where you totally disregarded the Quran and the mufassareens’ view or acted just out of ignorance about our Prophet being Noor, I would like to limit the discussion to the subject only on this thread. You may join your fellow Wahhabis in another thread and post your questions there related to Imamat and the presence and transfer of Noor from one Imam to the next as believed by Shias in general and Ismailis in particular. I will join insha Allah.

This was expected from you Pardesi. But the topic always has been about your Imam and it will always remain that. But since you have dragged the prophet in between let me clarify with you.

My qoute was as follows:

Aarif: Explaining logic to an Ismaili is a Herculean task but I will try. By logic (in context of our debate) what I mean is in the light of Quran and Islam. E.g. the prophet (PBUH) never claimed himself as noor of allah or anything like that... He always referred to himself as messenger of allah... Now if the prophet himself never made any claims like that how did your Imam aquired noor of allah?? This is a logical question (if you understand).

Read my above qoute again. It says "The prophet never claimed himself as Noor of allah." which I would still stand by because it is true...

Now again read the translation of ayah posted by you:

[Shakir 24:35] Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp is in a glass, (and) the glass is as it were a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive-tree, neither eastern nor western, the oil whereof almost gives light though fire touch it not-- light upon light-- Allah guides to His light whom He pleases, and Allah sets forth parables for men, and Allah is Cognizant of all things.

Once again it explicitly does not mention this in Quran that the prophet(s) is/are noor of allah and/or he can pass this noor from one human being to another...

BTW: The christians believe that Jesus is son of god. In that case he is the only one from the lineage of allah and we should all follow christanity because that is the only right religion going by Ismaili logic...

Again please stick to Quran and no other sources...

[Aarif]

021.007
YUSUFALI: Before thee, also, the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.
PICKTHAL: And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men, whom We inspired. Ask the followers of the Reminder if ye know not?
SHAKIR: And We did not send before you any but men to whom We sent revelation, so ask the followers of the reminder if you do not

Another ayah from same Quran refers to prophets as men with message from god and hence, messengers. And this is what I have mentioned in my post.