Deedar (Darshan) of Maula

[jawanmardan]

jawanmardan,

I hope you understand that accepting Imamate is different from accepting Aga Khan as the Imam.

Of course, everyone is entitled to accept anything they wish as long as it is of their own volition and it is not imposed on anyone else. I claim no patent on Imamate. Ahamdiyya may accept the Mahdi was Ghulam Mirza, Ithna Ashariya may believe him to be the 12th Imam, Sunni may still wait his arrival, Baha'i may believe him to be the Bab, Bohra and Nizari may believe him to be merely an exemplary Imam.

I believe Shah Karim Al-Husayni to be the Imam, if others disagree no big deal, there really is no point arguing about it. I am quite able to appreciate Sunni spiritual poetry, or ithna Ashariiya devotional ritual, or Buddhist meditation. All of which an only enrich understanding of my own faith.

I need require no proof, certainly not from a DNA test. Its about faith. Whatever we believe.

[anajmi]

Well, it wasn't about you requiring the proof. If you want others to believe as you do, then they might require proof. Some of the Ismailis have chosen to claim that the proof is in the quran. We are simply trying to figure it out, as soon as we can find this Ismaili quran.

[jawanmardan]

If you want others to believe as you do, then they might require proof...

If I or any Isma'ili did want others to believe as we do, then of course we would have to argue our case, but like any belief system there could never be objective "proof" certainly not scientific, no religious denomination can provide that. Religion relies ultermately after all the discussions, and spiritual enquiry are over with, upon the individuels simple faith.

As I have said previously, we do not seek converts, Dawa is restricted toward our Jamaat. And as long as there is no adverse impact upon our community, we aren't personally affronted by the beliefs and practices of others. So its a redundant, and technical point to require us to provide "proof".

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

There is always proof associated with a person's belief. The difference is simply the level. I have enough proof to believe in what I believe. The proof that I have may not be sufficient for someone else but if I want to argue then I have to present the proof and if you want to argue then you have to present the proof. If you do not wish to present proof, then you should not participate in the discussion. What is the point in trying to state something that you do not wish to prove or cannot prove? Why even bother to participate? If you do not seek converts, then why present your Imamat as the only way? And I am not directing my comments to you, but speaking in general. If you wish to discuss other issues that are important to the society, then we surely can. Let us not discuss Ismailism or Aga Khan and accept that his Imamat cannot be proven as authentic but can only be believed in. If however you wish to discuss it as authentic, then I am ready for that too.

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

what proof are you talking about? You have not been able to answer most of our questions ! You are simply chasing your own tail and riding MF scooters like an idiot .....you are asking the same questions in rotation even though conclusive answers have been given....you don't even know your own books....when we show you what your own scholars and your own books reveal and what your own Imams are saying, you start to bark like an imbecile and uncultured human being.....you have not been able to challeng eme on numerous issues....frankly you are worthless and the Prophet has indeed called you a "minnion of satan"...what more do you wish to know ehen your onw Prophet has disowned you?....so just get lost !...zn

[anajmi]

znan,

This is not a discussion for people with deficient IQ. You won't understand. I would simply let jawanmardan respond.

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

talking of IQ, you and MF are at the lowest level.....have you found the proof that your father is indeed your father and that you simply did not accept your mother's word for it? let us know if you did a DNA and what it showed huh?....zn

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

You claim you have an unmediated relationship with God ! so then why don't you show us the proof that you are simply not being taken for a ride?....show us God exists? where? how does He look? How do you have this so called relationship with HIM? .....what we see is that you only have a relationship with Mullahs and Muftis and idol worshippers who follow a fake Quran....and false Ahadith....show us the proof that I am wrong !...zn

[Omar Bin Abubakar]

Zan that sounds like Firouns people:)

[znanwalla]

Omarbhai,

any difference between Pharoah and your cult? I find lots of similarities !

[jawanmardan]

jawanmardan,

There is always proof associated with a person's belief. The difference is simply the level. I have enough proof to believe in what I believe. The proof that I have may not be sufficient for someone else but if I want to argue then I have to present the proof and if you want to argue then you have to present the proof.

Your right it is about "levels" religious conviction bases its proof on one individual reasoning of the faith in question, but also on the emotional connection, it's a proof that can't be empirically measured, it's reasoned so it's ultimately based on faith.

If you do not wish to present proof, then you should not participate in the discussion. What is the point in trying to state something that you do not wish to prove or cannot prove? Why even bother to participate?

It's more bout my presenting what I actually believe, if I see that it is being misrepresented. Anyone would do the same.

If you do not seek converts, then why present your Imamat as the only way? And I am not directing my comments to you, but speaking in general. If you wish to discuss other issues that are important to the society, then we surely can. Let us not discuss Ismailism or Aga Khan and accept that his Imamat cannot be proven as authentic but can only be believed in. If however you wish to discuss it as authentic, then I am ready for that too.

I believe that the value of discussing any faith is in engaging in a co-operative and positive dialogue (as opposed to debate), between people of different religious traditions. It is by its inherent nature a vast and ongoing dialogue, while respectfully maintaining the integrity of ones own faith.

I'm not talking about watering down beliefs to appeal to the other, but being honest and open, "warts and all", because thats the only way we build trust and understanding. Which is what we need most in the world. I believe this kind of inter-faith dialogue is fundamental in discussing societal concerns, and making progress.

[anajmi]

it's a proof that can't be empirically measured,

I would disagree with that. For eg. in the quran certain things are mentioned that could only have come from a higher authority at that time. Would you agree? Besides, "empirically measured" proof is whose requirement? I am not asking the Ismaili to produce DNA evidence of their Imam link to Hazrat Ali or Hazrat Fatima. I can understand that something like that is not possible. But proof within the realm of religion and religious beliefs is what is acceptable to me.

And sure we can have positive dialogue with people of other religions. I do. All the time. At my work, with my friends. I've got hindus, christians, Ismaili friends. We've never fight. We talk about all kinds of issues. An Ismaili will never claim that Ali is Allah and that Aga Khan is Ali outside. Neither will he say outside that Muslims praying 5 times are wrong. Have you ever heard your Imam cursing the first three Khalifas in public? The Ismailis over here do it all the time. But the Ismailis on this board are a different breed. They need to be treated differently. And they get treated differently.

It's more bout my presenting what I actually believe, if I see that it is being misrepresented. Anyone would do the same.

That is what leads us to where we are right now.

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

I want to ask you how you feel your religion might've been misrepresented?

Also, Ismailis on this board have claimed that the quran we all have is a lie. They have the real quran. Is that an accurate statement or is that a misrepresentation of Ismailism by the Ismailis?

[jawanmardan]

I would agree that a believer may construe references in the Qu'ran that allude to scientific truth, but the Qu'ran doesn't go into enough detail to make this factual its enough for me, but not enough to convince every sceptic. Thats fine because the Qu'ran is not not intended as a scientific manual, it serves an altogether much more spiritual significance, and social significance. An Egyptian writer I enjoy reading expressed "it speaks to my heart, and speaks to my mind, and at times brings me to tears", bio-technology books dnt have the same effect.

"empirically measured" proof is whose requirement?

Its the requirement of many hardline atheists, and even some religious people who pose it to other religions (although they would never do so to their own). To me looking for Allah's truth in trying to work out the big bang theory in Qu'ranic Ayah is kinda missing what is truly magnificent in the Quran.

And sure we can have positive dialogue with people of other religions. I do. All the time. At my work, with my friends.

The dialogue i am advocating is one that involves discussing faith, between religious "others", not to convince, but merely to explain what each of us believes. So that barriers of hate or mistrust are broken.

[jawanmardan]

jawanmardan,

I want to ask you how you feel your religion might've been misrepresented?

Also, Ismailis on this board have claimed that the quran we all have is a lie. They have the real quran. Is that an accurate statement or is that a misrepresentation of Ismailism by the Ismailis?

for example:

An Ismaili will never claim that Ali is Allah and that Aga Khan is Ali outside. Neither will he say outside that Muslims praying 5 times are wrong. Have you ever heard your Imam cursing the first three Khalifas in public?

Ideas like we believe Ali is Allah is not congruent to what the faith actually teaches, However many Isma'ili like myself will explain that when we refer to Ali in many instances we mean the present Imam.

Important to note is that neither the Imam nor his highest appointed leaders either believe nor advocate Cursing the Rashidun Kalifahs, or presuming to judge Sunni practices as wrong, in fact that is contrary to their teachings.

If it is assumed that when I explain my faith to another I am trying to convince them of it's "truth", or that I am trying to insinuate that theirs is false, miss the point of building understanding. As I have said before I have never come across the belief in tahreef within our jammat, in fact a young American Isma'ili just produced the first Qu'ran App. for the iPhone.

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

but not enough to convince every sceptic.

Yes, I agree, which is what I said earlier. If you believe in the quran, then you know that even the splitting of the red sea was not enough proof for the Children of Israel.

Its the requirement of many hardline atheists,

Frankly, I am not concerned with providing any "proof" to these atheists. I am concerned only with those that already believe and still misrepresent. As I said above, even the splitting of the red sea won't be enough proof to many.

in fact that is contrary to their teachings.

Then maybe when Ismailis on this board espouse such teachings, you should speak up more often. If people like yourself were to do that, then we wouldn't have the mess that we find ourselves in right now.

in fact a young American Isma'ili just produced the first Qu'ran App. for the iPhone.

Again, as I said, if Ismailis like yourself were to speak up more often when Ismailism, on this board, is misrepresented by other Ismailis, we may achieve what you seek. You should speak up when the quran is called a lie, by the other Ismailis, as a belief of Ismailism.

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

Are you a skeptic or SEPTIC ? poison for the human kind? just wondering !

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

We don't need to achieve anything with you and your likes.....the enemies of the Prophet and his family are our enemies and that is the bottom line !....you can achieve what you want with your veggies ! and sickos like MF....don't waste your time with us pal...

[znanwalla]

Najmi,
I don't think you understand who an "atheist" is to begin with? They are the ones whom the Prophet classified as "minnions" and non-believers ! Not the ones who have followed the Prophet....but dumbos will be retarded all the time and speak foolishly just the way you do.....

[znanwalla]

Najmi is now desperately clinging to what said to one of his governor....but cannot even answer my clarifying questions....they are just hypocrites...nothing worth talking about....they don't belong to the Umma of Muhamad...period !

[anajmi]

znan,

I would simply let jawanmardan respond. Try not to prove me right every time. That way, I won't be wasting my time with you either.

[jawanmardan]

Then maybe when Ismailis on this board espouse such teachings, you should speak up more often. If people like yourself were to do that, then we wouldn't have the mess that we find ourselves in right now.

I've made my views on Islam, and the issues we face on several topics, I would prefer not getting embroiled in topics that go round in circles. I think the actions of my community speak loudly about what we believe and set an example for Isma'ili:

The Agha Khan was a go between after the first gulf war but was criticized for being to "sympathetic to Saddam", he was in my view being pragmatic, and compassionate toward Iraqs civilians.

Prince Saddrudin did a great deal at UNESCO in serving in the the promotion and preservation of Islamic culture and promoting its awareness in non-Islamic nations, he was also the longest serving United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees did much for Iraqi refugees, Bosnians, and many others. He twice won the popular general assembly vote to be Secretary General of the UN, twice rejected, the last time was by the United States when he publicly criticized the "the inhumanity of the sanctions policy".

The Agha Khan has also preserved many cultural sites built by some of the Rashidun Caliphs.

Again, as I said, if Ismailis like yourself were to speak up more often when Ismailism, on this board, is misrepresented by other Ismailis, we may achieve what you seek. You should speak up when the quran is called a lie, by the other Ismailis, as a belief of Ismailism.

I believe I mentioned my take on the Qu'ran several times, if I did so several more times I doubt it would make much difference.

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

I agree with what you say, however I am referring specifically to this board. I have made it very clear on other threads that what Aga Khan does should be an example for other muslim leaders. I am simply referring to his idiotic followers on this board who don't know what Islam is and now, as you have made it clear, don't know what Ismailism is either!!

[anajmi]

I believe I mentioned my take on the Qu'ran several times, if I did so several more times I doubt it would make much difference.

Yes, and I appreciate that. I have mentioned the exact same thing, countless more times. But you are right it isn't going to make any difference to the morons.

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

Please stop fooling us....you have been outright abusive towards our Imam and his family ! if you show respect and dialogue in a civil manner we shall do the same...but if you think you will get away with any kind of bull....then keep on dreaming !....The QURAN is NOT a lie ! I have said this umpteen times....the Quran as revealed to the Prophet is AUTHENTIC ! Now if you guys don't understand me tough !....zn

[anajmi]

you have been outright abusive towards our Imam and his family !

I have finally reached the conclusion that your Imam is not the same as Aga Khan who is jawanmardan's Imam. I am not abusing that Aga Khan, I am abusing your Aga Khan whose beliefs are completely different from what jawanmardan has stated. So your Imam deserves it. He has been proven to be foolish and unjust and at the same time he is a liar and a manipulator.

[znanwalla]

I hope that someday you will reach the conclusion that your father is indeed NOt your father ! I hope that you will soon have this realization also that I am a Sh'ia !...zn

[anajmi]

I already reached that conclusion. Remember I told you I am your next Imam?

[znanwalla]

You can keep on dreaming ! for now be the leader of the whores in the brothels as you are better suited for it and MF can be your mentor.....he will get a change after sitting behind a swollen...for so long ...zn

[anajmi]

So you want me to be your leader too?