You're right, script will not change and nobody is demanding that it does. The issue is the use of this script. As I said in my earlier post, is Sayedna drawing lessons from this script for this followers? Is he telling them the meaning and purpose of Karbala and making it relevant to their lives? No. Just regurgitating the script - like everybody else - is a waste of time and a waste of such powerful and emotional historical event.GreatBarrier wrote:History of Karbala has not changed why do you think there should be a new script If you have attended any event what fanfare do you see ? Don’t the Mumin do matam and weep. Why do you think it is wrong to buy a few merchandise or have some soft drinks or snacks.
Nobody is objecting to buying and merchandise and soft drinks. Why do you reduce every argument to such triviality? I was referring more to the general atmosphere of "celebration", the shopping, eating and sight seeing sprees - the unstated objectives - that attract huge crowds to such events. Colombo, Dubai and now Mombasa are cases in point.
Why has the sane world continually attacked W. Bush in the last eight years? Is it because they wanted to take his authority or his position? No. Leaders and public figures are open to public scrutiny and will face criticism and attacks for their wrong policies and actions. Reformists criticise Sayenda for the way he and his kothar have used religion to subjugate and exploit the community. We want reforms in the community and have no interest in taking over the power or authority of the Dai. Now say after me, reformists want reforms not the authority of the Dai.Well what is your purpose of continued attack on Sayedna if it is not to take away his authority and run it the way you think it should be run.
No we do not want to appoint anyone as Dai. We have no atuthority to do so. Only a Dai has the authority to appoint his successor. All we want is that the Dai look into the grievances of his "farzandoN". We may be a minority but that is no reason to ignore our grievances. All change in history has been initiated and brought about minorities. Even Islam when it started was a minority. The "majority satisfaction" you talk about is nothing but manufactured. I've explained earlier the reasons why people continue stay within the community despite all the problems. Their choice is born of expediency and convenience. Don't call it "satisfaction". They just grin and bear it. This reminds me of Ghalib's shair:So you want to retain the position but appoint someone you want…how can that be fair that you as a minority want to impose your person as a leader of Bohras and deny the current satisfaction majority have with Burhanudinn Saheb.
unke dekhe jo aa jaati hai mun pai raunak
woh samjhte hai ke bimaar ka haal achha hai
From the time a child is born to the day he dies there are taxes. All this well documented - and more importantly - daily experienced by thousands of common bohras. If you think it is an exaggeration then all I can say that you are quite out of touch with reality. Yes, there are people in every group who want everything for nothing. But these are exceptions. Don't use exceptions to justify the rules.You are exaggerating, the issues are there but not as widespread as you state..not every step not every day. And let us be honest we have many amongst us who are culturally and racially misers…for example we cannot get away paying R5,000 a year wajebaat and sabeel and turn up for over 100 days to use the jamaat facilities, madrassas, Amil and meals and then say we are being squeezed.
See my response above. It is a tamasha because the meaning and purpose of the occasion is lost in "having a good time". Strict rules, Islamic or otherwise, is not the answer. If only the Sayedna could show some sincerity of purpose all this tamasha will disappear automatically.You say it is tamasha because you see it as tamasha and over reacting. The tamasha happened outside the masjid and are not propgated..the only fault is they are not discouraging the gatherings and socialising of people…but I bet if they did enforce strict Islamic rules like they do in Saudi Arabaia they will be people on this board claiming fundamentalism and extremism. Your damned if you do damned if you don’t.
It is written in the Quran and exemplified by the Prophet and Ali in their own lives. Besides, there is something called moral sensibility. Leaders concerned about and sensitive to the plight of their people would not think of living in palaces and travelling by chartered planes. The Dai is a spiritual leader all this luxury, pomp and occasion does not suit him.Where is it written that it is haram to live a luxurious life style...
Let us be frank and say that you have no idea what "islamic values" are. Anything achieved by force and coercion is un-Islamic, and the bohra system is nothing but a regime of force and coercion. All kinds of taxes, ex-communication, forcing people to toe the line, deification of the Dai, the sajda to him, claiming to be haqiqi kaba and bolta koran are all un-Islamic practices.and whatever they have added has not diminished Islamic values…let us be frank about it.
Again, you're using the exception to justify the status quo.There are many who live without raza and misaq and go about their daily lives
I don't know what you mean, but my comment was more about how the bohras are degenerating from a decent, sensible community into a fanatic, bigoted cult.Travel the world and then update your reply..degenerating into what are the number of Bhoras dropping off…evolution and civilization will continue and has done for 1400 years.
Yes it is sunna. Not compulsory. It is enforced on people only be draconian regimes and bigoted Mullas. Muslims in free societies are free to demonstrate their "Muslim identity" in ways they choose, and by the same token they are also free Not to demonstrate their "Muslim identity" if they so choose. Bohras are not free to choose and hence theirs must be a draconian society. Force, coercion = un-Islamic.Again you are looking at negatives…rida topi dhadhi are Sunna’s in Islam I have no issue with it ..if you see around you the Muslim Ummah as a whole is moving towards the demonstrating their Islamic identity..to mention a few Hashim Amla RSA cricket player, young women in the West going to court so they can wear Hijab..
You are stunned because you're not understanding our reasoning. Progressive are not against the Islamic attire and modesty as such. We are against it being used - like so many other things - to control and manipulate people.I am stunned that Progressives have objection to some one who is encouraging Sunnah…it is a sad that our own Muslims do not respect our identity and yet we seek non-Muslims to respect our values more.
You're right. But the Dai is conduit to Allah ONLY in spiritual matters. For temporal and social matters he has no authority over the lives of people. Progressives are objecting to Dai's and his regime's insistence that bohras submit to their will in matters that have nothing to do with religion or spirituality.You are wrong…The surrender to the will of Dai as a conduit to the will of Allah is the basic fundamental of Fatimid-Ismaili theology..don’t you ask for Dua through Imams and Dais, My strife with you is you are cherry picking and deciding to justify your hate and opposition while playing around with your limited knowledge. If the rules are to be followed it applies to everything 100% not when you decide and when it suits you.
There are no "specific" people. No bad apples. This is the way system works, only some individual tend to be worse than others. Remember Abu Ghraib? Torture is endemic in American military but these few individuals stepped out of line and the administration tried to justify it as a case of a few bad apples. Staying with example, with all the depredations in Iraq and Afghanistan would you blame "specific" soldiers or their commander in chief in the White House? When things go wrong, the boss must take the rap.This may be the case but its is the cost many have accepted. Why do you drag every one in your attacks…target the specific people who are corrupt and fleecing. Leave the dai alone and stop trashing around the whole community.
Great! So long it's "legal" it's okay to do it. So now it's okay for mullas to carry (ill-gotten) diamonds in their pockets rather than hide them in their pagdis. It's okay for Sayedna and his handlers to fleece bohras in a foreign country and "legally" launder the money to secret bank accounts in Cayman islands and Swiss banks and other such safe havens. Don't you think we are missing something very simple and vital in all this: morality???Mind you what was illegal in 60’s is now quite ok in many countries..such as taking diamonds or large cash is ok as long as it is declared while in 60’s one could never export dollars…now thanks to economic globalisation.
Proof? Open any of our source books and show me the justification for "raza" and "misaq" as they are being used today. Or for the sajda to the Dai. Or for the Dai being the sole owner of Bohra properties. Or for calling himself Sultan. Or for ex-communication. Or for extorting money from the community and not spending on its welfare. One could go on....You use extreme words..”complete violation”.., prove to me within the context of our scriptures where Sayedna is breaching interpretations to the word by enforcing some of the rules ?
Rules, yes. Coercsion, no. Even in religious matters. The role of the Dai is limited to the spiritual sphere. The Dai is the master of Din of his believers but not their Duniya. Yes, Islam does not distinguish between din an duniya but it leaves the matter between the believer and Allah. You're right about "no compulsions" but wrong about the rules. Islam and even our Bohra faith and traditon do not give anybody the authority to impose "rules" on others. Not even "religious rules" leave alone social and temporal rules.Do you think to govern 1 million people is easy with no rules and people an do what they like and when they like. Your concept is for Sayedna to be a preacher in a church and people do what they like…you forget Islam there is no separation of dunia and din. There is no compulsion to join Islam but when you join you have to follow strict rules. Research the concept for yourself.
I do not have to prove my sincerity to you or anyone. However, I'm curious about Sayedna's "lifelong mission". Please do elaborate.I am now not sure you sound incencerely to be sympathetic of his health and welfare but opposed to his lifelong mission!
GB, I've not intention to shut you up. As long as you have a question or comment I'll respond. But these things tend to get repetitive so from this point on I'll only respond to comments that have not already be answered one way or the other.PS: Interesting some people on this board like spectators are cheering you with the classic Indian..waah waah ..thinking because one has posted long ended response he MUST have made the point to shut me up….mates bring it on!