Kalim,Humsafar and company ....

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Zeal
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:01 am

Kalim,Humsafar and company ....

#1

Unread post by Zeal » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:34 am

I have joined this forum not long back, but past 2 months I have been observing the quotes from the guys mentioned above and some others like porus, accountability and Tahir.

The points to be highlighted:

1) They do not seem to believe quran as the word of Allah.
2) They do not agree on teachings of last prophet Mohammed(PBUH) and seem to have a major dispute on the authencity of the hadith, whomsoever it maybe from.
3) They make a mockery of the basic pillars of Islam like Hajj and the rituals attached to it like Qurbani.
4) They seem to advocate illegal sex.
5) They do not agree on the very basic institution of marriage, which again happens to be sunnah of the prophet Mohammed(PBUH)

In all any body who tries to sum up the points above will come to a conclusion that this is nothing but rejection of faith.

I strongly believe all these guys were at a certain point believers of Islam, but not anymore.

Now this forum is basically about reform movement against Kothar, who are atleast followers of Islam and Quran(in whatever way they try to)
I think people who do not believe in Islam itself , it makes no sense for them to comment on reform, which has its roots coming from people who follow Islam.

I seriously recommend admin should think about banning these guys from this forum , as they are trying to corrupt the very basic belief of the religion amongst other members on this board.

In other words they all tend to speak kufr which poses the question whether this forum is open to kuffar also?

Maybe admin can think of starting another forum which will entertain these kind of challenges which pose a threat to Islam.

pro_pig
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:01 am

Re: Kalim,Humsafar and company ....

#2

Unread post by pro_pig » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:15 pm

zeal u r correct these guys dont believe in quran and pass out their own comments and i dont know where they reside so i can personal met them i think these guys run prog dawoodi bohra i hope allah give them knowledge

anajmi
Posts: 13511
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Kalim,Humsafar and company ....

#3

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 pm

Zeal, pro_pig,

You have to remember that Allah and his prophet (saw) hate hypocrites more than non-believers.

Those who cheat people in the name of Allah and his prophet are the biggest criminals. Kothar falls in that category.

People like humsafar, porus and kalim are much better than the best kothari (I am ofcourse assuming that they are all corrupt).

Banning them is something that the kothar would do.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Kalim,Humsafar and company ....

#4

Unread post by porus » Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:31 pm

Zeal,

People mentioned in your post are all individuals with their own minds and their own views. You need not lump them altogether as having one voice. You should apply that distinction to Kotharis.

Do you believe that all Muslims believe in Quran as word of Allah? Then, why would not a Bohra pray with other Muslims. And, why would he not allow or not encourage other Muslims to pray in his masjid?

Instead of guarding your corrupt mind with zeal, see if you believe that Quran is Allah's word or if you believde it is Sayedna's word?

Humsafar
Posts: 2623
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Kalim,Humsafar and company ....

#5

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:56 pm

… trying to corrupt the very basic belief of the religion amongst other members on this board.

...kind of challenges which pose a threat to Islam.

Zeal, you are more of a bigot than I thought. Look at the quotes above. "Corrupting the basic beliefs", "threat to Islam" - these are the fears of an insecure, unthinking mind. What are you afraid of? That people might actually start thinking, that reason and rationality may lead them to unchartered territory where they may not find the comfort and certitude of a revealed religion? In other words, lead them to kufr. What in fact you are suggesting is that they stop thinking, stop reasoning. What you are advocating is blind faith - which is no different from the kind of blind faith some bohras have in the Dai: The dai can never be wrong. What he says goes. Similarly, Islam and the Prophet can never be wrong. What they say goes.

What gives you so much certainty and confidence in the Truth of Islam and the Porphet? Look at Islamic history - right from the time of revelation - it is full of controversy and is open to conjecture and debate. Your are a mulsim/bohra by birth. If you were born into let's say a Christian family, I would guess you would have the same zeal for Christianity as you now have for Islam. You are a Muslim not by choice but because your parents are Muslim. And your parents are Muslim because their parents were and so on until at some point your forefathers(mothers) converted to Islam.

This brings me to the point I mentioned in passing in one of my earlier posts. And the point is that Islam ceased to be a "religion" and became more of an imperial/colonial mission soon after the death of the Prophet. Islamic conquests and imperial domination were no different from the empires that came before and those that would come after. Islam's spread and success is steeped in force and violence. So was the European colonialism, and so is the current American empire. Of course, they all have their justification - from bringing Allah's word to the unbelievers to civilising the heathens to bringing freedom and democracy to the unwashed. The question is why is Islamic (read Arab) colonialism any more acceptable than let's say the British Raj or the American occupation?

Of course we have all been indoctrinated, as part of growing up, with the religion we are born into. Socially and culturally we'll always be Muslims - the customs, traditions, rituals, festivals etc. - this is something nobody can take away from us. We may reject our past and disown our heritage but we can never disentangle it from our life. That said, let's also accept that the our minds have been colonised by Islam - Islam that essentially carries within it the culture, ethos, traditions and superstitions of tribal, backward and unsophisticated 7th century Arabia. Muslims everywhere irrespective of race and colour are required to bear the burden of this alien culture and all the divine baggage that comes with it. Consider this, does the concept of an Arab Hindu strikes you as strange? If so, then why does an "Indian" muslim or "Chinese" muslim or "Slav" muslim doesn't strike you as strange. Think about it.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Kalim,Humsafar and company ....

#6

Unread post by accountability » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:52 pm

Zeal: You did not elobrate what do you mean by believing in Islam. Does it mean believing in Ismailsim(if you know the history of Ismailism). if that is so, then ismailism just touches the boundry of Islam, otherwise it also negates the basic principle of faith. The heaven and hell, as muslims believe is quiet different than the ones concieved by haqiqat and taavil, i believe you are not privy to such kind of knowledge (taavil and haqiqat). also other pillars of islam are concieved quiet diagnally from the main stream islam. zaqat in ismaili fiqah is not to be distributed among the poors, instead collected solely by the imam or dai (if imam is in seclusion), can be spent on any thing that he deens fit. Jihad is as such just a struggle devil, not to be fought physically. Al saum is for the purification of soul, by the command of imam. Nizari ismailis do not pray, as imam has ordered. bohras do pray, but through vasila. I believe that you have never been to haqiqat or taavil lectures. According to Islam Adam was the first man and prophet, according to ismaili doctrine, the first man adam, was not the first prophet. now can you reply which islam do you believe in, wahabi, sunni, ismaili, nizari, alavi, shii, mailiki, humbli, hanafi, shafai or qadyani, and which islma we were negating. According to ismaili version, quran has two doctorines, one is zahir and one is batin, the batin one is very different, actually totally different from the zahir one, which version do you want everyone to believe in, or vice versa. The person who is prime source of ahadiths, was only twelve years old, at the time of rasulilah's demise. Sahae sitta, six authentic versions has so much uncommon, that it hardly corrobrates one and other. Book of genesis, or injeel, by mathew, john and banabas are so different from each other, that they may be the source of new religions, but christianity.

kalim
Posts: 107
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:01 am

Re: Kalim,Humsafar and company ....

#7

Unread post by kalim » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:18 am

Dear Zeal: You are absolutely correct in desiring to ban different opinions: if one is blissfully ignorant then one can not be prompted to change. Thinking for ones self is a very subversive activity which no true believer should be allowed to do. That is precisely what the da'i and his administration want: unthinking zombies. My orthodox friends ask me: "What does a mumin have to worry about? Just ask maula and he will solve all problems!"

I will address your 5 points. I speak for my self and not the evil cabal of "Kalim,Humsafar and company". Let these other notorious fellows speak for themselves.

"1) They do not seem to believe quran as the word of Allah."

First, please tell me what do you mean by "Allah" and what it means for him to have a "word". I reject a belief in an anthropomorphic god who talks, gets angry and interferes in our day to day life. But I am not alone: even great dua'ts have concluded that the belief in such a god is contrary to the principle of monotheism. To reconcile this they adopted and modified Greek Neoplatonic concepts of "emanations", one of whom is actually responsible for running the "sub-lunary" world (i.e the Earth).

"2) They do not agree on teachings of last prophet Mohammad(PBUH) and seem to have a major dispute on the authenticity of the hadith, whomsoever it maybe from."

Bohras reject most hadith from standard Sunni sources. Are you being dishonest about this? Often in waaz the sayedna says: "the 'baharna logo' [i.e Sunnis] say so and so, but the real meaning of this is so and so". I mentioned this before: hadith collectors can verify the chain of narration and not always the narration itself. Thus a hadith was classified as strong if the chain of narrators was (from previous analysis) shown to be truthful or weak if at least one narrator was know to lie. It is also recognized that many hadith were manufactured and for this reason there was a need for codification. Within Muslims there are people who completely reject the hadith. We have one such member on board, although he has not made his appearance in recent months. Anyway, the sayedna has openly ridiculed quranic commentators like Tabari, saying that these people had no business commenting on the Quran: that is the sole province of the ahle-bait.

"3) They make a mockery of the basic pillars of Islam like Hajj and the rituals attached to it like Qurbani."

I have not done this, so I will not comment.

"4) They seem to advocate illegal sex."

I have certainly not done so. Please note: sex between consenting adults is not a crime in most Western countries or even in countries like India. Thus it can't be illegal. The state or for that matter, religious leaders have no business to tell people what to do in private. However, I consider marriage and sex with minors, irrespective of agreement of parents or approval of religious leaders, as done my many Muslims, morally reprehensible. It is also illegal in most countries. Of course, anajmi has argued that such people are not "true" Muslims at all, but only Allah knows who it a true Muslim.

"5) They do not agree on the very basic institution of marriage, which again happens to be sunnah of the prophet Mohammed(PBUH)"

I am not against marriage itself, but making it into a fossilized institution. All I am suggesting is that the concept of marriage is very culture specific and in certain situations it may not be needed at all.

"I seriously recommend admin should think about banning these guys from this forum , as they are trying to corrupt the very basic belief of the religion amongst other members on this board."

Yes, I recommend that to the Admin too. As a matter of fact I suggest banning everyone except Zeal, Hj786, pro_pig, mature and friends. Why? Because according to orthodox, Dr. Engineer, Hamdani, Poonawala, S.Insaf and other progressives are all "trying to corrupt the very basic belief of the religion". So they all deserve to be banned, damned notorious evil fellows! The admin should only allow those who heap lanats on these people. As a matter of fact in Pune, at the end of every majlis Dr. Engineer is roundly cursed by the local amil and his cohorts.

Anyway, instead of wasting time in analyzing what others think why don't you comment on the progressive movement and their demands for social reform? Are you trying to divert attention from those issues? Please read the Nathwani commission report and do try and justify the atrocious behavior of the administration. Also try and justify the massive money collection machine the dawaat has turned into. This way you will contribute more to this board rather than waste everyone's time advocating banning of this member or that.

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Kalim,Humsafar and company ....

#8

Unread post by Danish » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:29 am

The following website should solve most of the bickerings and relentless "religious" quarrels among mankind; read, study, understand and reflect in its entirety with diligence: www.aididsafar.com

practical
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:01 am

Re: Kalim,Humsafar and company ....

#9

Unread post by practical » Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:10 am

Dear Zeal,
I understand that this site is for reformist. It includes you as you are here to reform the reformist.

When Kalim and others says that the Quran is not to be taken “as it isâ€

EL-JUAN
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:01 am

Re: Kalim,Humsafar and company ....

#10

Unread post by EL-JUAN » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:21 pm

:) :( :o :D ;) :p :cool:

Zeal
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:01 am

Re: Kalim,Humsafar and company ....

#11

Unread post by Zeal » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:36 am

First of all , it looks like some people have mistaken me as a pro kothar , which I am not.

I joined this forum since I always felt the need for the reform movement.

So some of the quotes from you guys should get answered.(like one from porus "Instead of guarding your corrupt mind with zeal, see if you believe that Quran is Allah's word or if you believde it is Sayedna's word")

I always believed on my mind which inclines me towards the creater of this universe and convinces me of his supreme power.

Next I am not a sunni as well and this I have cleared even in one of the other threads.
All of you have tried to convince me of that bcoz Islam is followed in different ways by different sects like wahabi, sunni, ismaili, nizari, alavi, shii, mailiki, humbli, hanafi, shafai or qadyani, there is hardly any truth left in it.

But does that give anyone a passport to be convinced that there is absolutely no God.

And the fact not to be forgotten is that all the sects mentioned above still accept that there is one god which everybody calls Allah and follow his book quran.
Prophet muhammed(PBUH) itself predicted that there will be many many sects after him and there will be differences subsequently.

Thats why we have quran with us which is a unique platform for all to gather upon and move ahead in this life with its divine guidance despite of these differences.

Moreover,
who do you think has created this universe ? How do you justify the endless bounties on this earth? How did you come into existence and where will you go back ?
It was quran who justified what day and night is ,and how the day comes out from night, how the earth , moon and the sun revolves etc long before the modern science discovered it.
(Debating on these topics - separate thread pls)

Further,
I do not want to put a stop to the thinking of any individual.I am no one for that matter.

Kalim's quote
"Anyway, instead of wasting time in analyzing what others think why don't you comment on the progressive movement and their demands for social reform? Are you trying to divert attention from those issues?"

This is exactly what I am saying , this is a reform movement against kothar , so why are you guys wasting time in critising Islam , instead why dont we talk abt reform.

I think people have mistaken me as a friend of pro pig , mature and similar guys who accept Syedna's every word as 'pathar ki lakeer'.

Let me clarify I have nothing to do with these guys and their blind faith against syedna who is nothing but a mortal.

I said 'Threat to Islam' for people like anjami who might eventually get tilted towards similar thoughts .
My faith in Allah is like a rock ...no one can dare shake it !

Lastly again I will stress ...why I asked banning these guys on this board was bcoz when they do not believe in Islam itself...there is no point for them in talking about reform for bohris.

Hypocricy would be ...you dont believe Islam , but you do want to criticise people who are deforming or mishandling Islam .

Zeal
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:01 am

Re: Kalim,Humsafar and company ....

#12

Unread post by Zeal » Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:39 am

-

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: Kalim,Humsafar and company ....

#13

Unread post by tahir » Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:19 am

Originally posted by Zeal:

Hypocricy would be ...you dont believe Islam , but you do want to criticise people who are deforming or mishandling Islam .
Zeal,
If I hear about someone abusing his wife, I would criticise the person even when I do not believe that she is my wife. You are welcome to call me a hypocrite for that.

JC
Posts: 1624
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Kalim,Humsafar and company ....

#14

Unread post by JC » Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:25 pm

Tahir buddy how are you??

I am posting messages after a long time though i have been visitig and reading stuff.

Can anyone shed some light on Burhan's health (and wealth, every one knows..)

I still believe Relgion is the Great Divide.

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: Kalim,Humsafar and company ....

#15

Unread post by tahir » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:36 pm

Hi JC
I am fine. Thank you. Nice to see you back... :)

I guess no one here is sure about the health status of dai burhanuddin. Personally, I am not sure if he is dai burhanuddin.

JC
Posts: 1624
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Kalim,Humsafar and company ....

#16

Unread post by JC » Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:13 pm

Tahir,

Right no one will know about health of burhan, well he will harvest what he has sowed.

And i like ur theory of burhan not being burhan..!!! how can u say that, is there any kind of evidence the real one died, i can understand the income from living burhan is more than dead one and yes, there is unity coz of him, so may be u r right .... and yeah this current one is kind of brown (or black), the original was more Gora - and if this is original his Kartoot has made him black faced ...!!!!

lets hope for a big bang and tamasha - soon this power and wealth hungry Kotha Wallas will fight,