Is Syedna right? - a repost

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Is Syedna right? - a repost

#1

Unread post by Guest » Fri Dec 22, 2000 3:03 am

Going back at the archives... I don't think this was topic was totally exhausted, neither did I get any good responses from the 'opposition'. :-)<p>Husayn wrote:<p>"…a lot of so called scholars telling muslims what they should think based on what they know, think, and feel, instead following the rightful guides in Islam…the Imams and their Dais"<p>Okay, lets assume the Syedna has the correct interpretation of the Qur'an and everyone else is wrong.<p>Let see... answer me these questions then:<p><br>Is that why he lives a luxurious and comfortable life in a palace unlike Maulana Ali (AS)?<p>Is that why he couldn't care less about the welfare of the community when the Zakat system in the Qur'an gives SPECIFIC directions for distribution of Zakat? Why does he then use it for his personal use?<p>Does not the Qur'an preach the equality of mankind? So why does his extend family have royal status and consider themselves superior? Why the different titles of status?<p>Does not the Qur'an preach the brotherhood of Muslims? Where are we in this brotherhood?<p>Why does he tolerate people kissing his feet, laps, and bowing down to him? Is he a god? Is he the judge on the Day of Resurrection that you need to ask him to forgive your sins? Doesn't the Qur'an say there is none to be worshiped except Allah [SWT]?<br>Okay..... lets have a look at "them":<p><br>The leader of the Taleban lives a simple life in a modest house with little furniture in it, even though he has most of Afghanistan under his control.<p>The Hamas movement in Palestine and Hizbollah movement in Lebanon are running schools and hospitals for the community even in the most difficult of circumstances, and even while the rest of the world considers them terrorist organizations.<p>In Sunnism, all Muslims are equal. You can go to any Muslim mosque you like without worrying about getting kicked out for being in the wrong sect. You cannot reserve the front row for prayers in a Sunni mosque. In Saudi Arabia, people run to the mosque when the Adhaan is called. Bohras run to the mosque when they hear there is food.<p>In Sunnism, the principle of Tawheed is strictly upheld. Feet-kissing, bowing down, etc would amount to shirk and a most serious offence.<p><br>Ooooookaaaaaay.... lets randomly pick the Hindus:<p>In Hinduism, human beings can be elavated to a god-status. Kissing feet of priests and bowing down to objects is routine. Hindus belong to different castes and therefore have different status and ranks. In Hinduism, there is a great emphasis on ritual rather than private worship. Every calamity can be avoided if the priest does the right thing at the right time. Singing and chanting are forms of worship. In Hindu mythology, when gods perform miracles it a sign of superiority and myths are passed down from generation to generation. Hindu high-priests have god-like status. Their water his holy as is their breath. It is necessary to do the clamp-hands-together position when standing before a Hindu god or priest. The priests can intercede with the gods and solve almost any kind of problem. In Hinduism although the underlying doctrine is claimed to be that of One God, it is held that God has different forms including human form.<p>Are you so sure now that the Syedna has the correct interpretation of the Qur'an AND is using it in an appropriate way? :-)<p>Muslim. <p><p>

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Re: Is Syedna right? - a repost

#2

Unread post by Guest » Fri Dec 22, 2000 2:41 pm

Assalamu alaykum Br. Muslim<p>Your questions are a bit inaccurately applied. Firstly, it is stupid to compare the Dai to someone like Maulana Ali! Our imams never claimed to be of the stature of Maulana Ali?why would their Dai. No Dai ever claimed to like the Imam..why pretend to like a member of the Panjatan Pak (as)?<p>Now to respond to your questions<p>Is that why he lives a luxurious and comfortable life in a palace unlike Maulana Ali (AS)?<br>There is nothing in Islam that says you can?t live like this. Secondly, the Fatimid Imams lived like this and they are infalliable. Why wouldn?t apply the same question to them?<p><br>Is that why he couldn't care less about the welfare of the community when the Zakat system in the Qur'an gives SPECIFIC directions for distribution of Zakat? Why does he then use it for his personal use?<br>Do you know for a fact any evidence for your allegations? Please provide.<p>Does not the Qur'an preach the equality of mankind? So why does his extend family have royal status and consider themselves superior? Why the different titles of status?<br>Allah ta?Ala says all men are equal except in piety and knowledge. As far as titles, the family members of the Dai hold offices or if they don?t hold offices then they are called shazada or shazadi which means son and daughter. Just like you and me they don?t have royal status but maybe superior in knowledge/piety only. I consider them the family members of the Dai and give them respect in being kin to the Dai and respect as muslims. If people give them more than that, they are acting of their own accord.<p>Does not the Qur'an preach the brotherhood of Muslims? Where are we in this brotherhood?<br>Muslims are brothers to one another. But there is a difference between mumin and muslim. We follow the siratul mustaqim as guided by Rasullah, the Imams and their Dai. They (the other sects) follow their own interpretation of what siratul mustaqim is. This is why there are so many sects in Islam.<p>Why does he tolerate people kissing his feet, laps, and bowing down to him? Is he a god? Is he the judge on the Day of Resurrection that you need to ask him to forgive your sins? Doesn't the Qur'an say there is none to be worshiped except Allah [SWT]?<br>I have had the honor of doing khadombosi of the Dai three times in my life. I have never been forced to kiss his feet, laps, or bow as in ruku to him. I did do salam and kiss his right knee out of respect?I do the same to my parents and related elders out of respect. He has never claimed to be god or the judge or asked to be worshipped. I have heard him many times pleading to Allah for forgiveness for both himself and his followers. <p>The leader of the Taleban lives a simple life in a modest house with little furniture in it, even though he has most of Afghanistan under his control.<br>The majority of muslims throughout the world say the Islam interpreted by the Taliban is not true Islam. It?s funny that this same leader, who lives a simple life, would flog a women in public for not covering her face (not required in Islam) or if she walked outside without a mahram.<p>The Hamas movement in Palestine and Hizbollah movement in Lebanon are running schools and hospitals for the community even in the most difficult of circumstances, and even while the rest of the world considers them terrorist organizations.<br>Mash?Allah, yes they are and they are shia and they are in the taqlid of Ayatollah Sadr and are supplied money and materials from mainly Iran and others around the world.<p>In Sunnism, all Muslims are equal. You can go to any Muslim mosque you like without worrying about getting kicked out for being in the wrong sect. You cannot reserve the front row for prayers in a Sunni mosque. In Saudi Arabia, people run to the mosque when the Adhaan is called. Bohras run to the mosque when they hear there is food.<br>Try going to a sunni mosque and tell that you?re a shia?see how long you?ll stay there. They only let sunnis in, and if you do things outside of the statement of their four Imams hadiths they will tell you to correct yourself. Sunnis call themselves hanafi, maliki,.etc. after there imams, and they only allow theses imams interpretation. And my friend?if the only bohras you know are ones who run to the mosque for food?then I think you need to find other bohras (there are many who run to the mosque to pray).<p>In Sunnism, the principle of Tawheed is strictly upheld. Feet-kissing, bowing down, etc would amount to shirk and a most serious offence.<br>The only sunnis that consider this offensive are the Wahabis. You must have never heard of the tariqas of the sufis or the memons who promote these ideas. If fact when you?re in the taqlid of a shiek in sunnism, you do every he says (whether it makes sense or not) let alone kissing his hands and feet. They say it is out of respect and learning the tariqas and has nothing to do with the Tawhid of Allah.<p>And your Hindu example?if your doing things like this or believe these things like this then your not practicing Islam?and none of the practices you described have been promoted by any Dai.<p>So I do think he is right because I believe the Imam as?Satr is right, who is the Dia?s mawla.<p>Was salamu alayk <br>

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Re: Is Syedna right? - a repost

#3

Unread post by Guest » Fri Dec 22, 2000 2:46 pm

Assalamu alaykum Br. Muslim<p>Your questions are a bit inaccurately applied. Firstly, it is stupid to compare the Dai to someone like Maulana Ali! Our imams never claimed to be of the stature of Maulana Ali?why would their Dai. No Dai ever claimed to like the Imam..why pretend to like a member of the Panjatan Pak (as)?<p>Now to respond to your questions<p>Is that why he lives a luxurious and comfortable life in a palace unlike Maulana Ali (AS)?<br>There is nothing in Islam that says you can?t live like this. Secondly, the Fatimid Imams lived like this and they are infalliable. Why wouldn?t apply the same question to them?<p><br>Is that why he couldn't care less about the welfare of the community when the Zakat system in the Qur'an gives SPECIFIC directions for distribution of Zakat? Why does he then use it for his personal use?<br>Do you know for a fact any evidence for your allegations? Please provide.<p>Does not the Qur'an preach the equality of mankind? So why does his extend family have royal status and consider themselves superior? Why the different titles of status?<br>Allah ta?Ala says all men are equal except in piety and knowledge. As far as titles, the family members of the Dai hold offices or if they don?t hold offices then they are called shazada or shazadi which means son and daughter. Just like you and me they don?t have royal status but maybe superior in knowledge/piety only. I consider them the family members of the Dai and give them respect in being kin to the Dai and respect as muslims. If people give them more than that, they are acting of their own accord.<p>Does not the Qur'an preach the brotherhood of Muslims? Where are we in this brotherhood?<br>Muslims are brothers to one another. But there is a difference between mumin and muslim. We follow the siratul mustaqim as guided by Rasullah, the Imams and their Dai. They (the other sects) follow their own interpretation of what siratul mustaqim is. This is why there are so many sects in Islam.<p>Why does he tolerate people kissing his feet, laps, and bowing down to him? Is he a god? Is he the judge on the Day of Resurrection that you need to ask him to forgive your sins? Doesn't the Qur'an say there is none to be worshiped except Allah [SWT]?<br>I have had the honor of doing khadombosi of the Dai three times in my life. I have never been forced to kiss his feet, laps, or bow as in ruku to him. I did do salam and kiss his right knee out of respect?I do the same to my parents and related elders out of respect. He has never claimed to be god or the judge or asked to be worshipped. I have heard him many times pleading to Allah for forgiveness for both himself and his followers. <p>The leader of the Taleban lives a simple life in a modest house with little furniture in it, even though he has most of Afghanistan under his control.<br>The majority of muslims throughout the world say the Islam interpreted by the Taliban is not true Islam. It?s funny that this same leader, who lives a simple life, would flog a women in public for not covering her face (not required in Islam) or if she walked outside without a mahram.<p>The Hamas movement in Palestine and Hizbollah movement in Lebanon are running schools and hospitals for the community even in the most difficult of circumstances, and even while the rest of the world considers them terrorist organizations.<br>Mash?Allah, yes they are and they are shia and they are in the taqlid of Ayatollah Sadr and are supplied money and materials from mainly Iran and others around the world.<p>In Sunnism, all Muslims are equal. You can go to any Muslim mosque you like without worrying about getting kicked out for being in the wrong sect. You cannot reserve the front row for prayers in a Sunni mosque. In Saudi Arabia, people run to the mosque when the Adhaan is called. Bohras run to the mosque when they hear there is food.<br>Try going to a sunni mosque and tell that you?re a shia?see how long you?ll stay there. They only let sunnis in, and if you do things outside of the statement of their four Imams hadiths they will tell you to correct yourself. Sunnis call themselves hanafi, maliki,.etc. after there imams, and they only allow theses imams interpretation. And my friend?if the only bohras you know are ones who run to the mosque for food?then I think you need to find other bohras (there are many who run to the mosque to pray).<p>In Sunnism, the principle of Tawheed is strictly upheld. Feet-kissing, bowing down, etc would amount to shirk and a most serious offence.<br>The only sunnis that consider this offensive are the Wahabis. You must have never heard of the tariqas of the sufis or the memons who promote these ideas. If fact when you?re in the taqlid of a shiek in sunnism, you do every he says (whether it makes sense or not) let alone kissing his hands and feet. They say it is out of respect and learning the tariqas and has nothing to do with the Tawhid of Allah.<p>And your Hindu example?if your doing things like this or believe these things like this then your not practicing Islam?and none of the practices you described have been promoted by any Dai.<p>So I do think he is right because I believe the Imam as?Satr is right, who is the Dia?s mawla.<p>Was salamu alayk <br>

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Re: Is Syedna right? - a repost

#4

Unread post by Guest » Fri Dec 22, 2000 3:48 pm

The dai can live as he wants,but not with other peoples money. I ask, yes there is no proof that the dai has spent on himself out of zakat money,but give me some examples of where our zakat money is being spent. Are there any bohra orphanages, or are there any bohra hospitals. The only schools are the two jamias. And sometimes I wonder at the parents who make these important decisions in a childs life by sending him to study in jamia. When he graduates from the jamia his only source of income is khidmat of the kothar a job whose salary cannot make ends meet for this young graduate. His other source of income is salams, and now a days they are present in quite a number where ever there is a majlis or niaz so the person doing the majlis is overburdened by these new mullas because he has to do salams not only to the one in sadarat of the majlis but everyone. <br>Show me a few examples of where the zakat money is spent, if not by the dai's administration in making certain that they still are in control of the massess.

Guest

Re: Is Syedna right? - a repost

#5

Unread post by Guest » Fri Dec 22, 2000 7:01 pm

Assalamu alayk Dear Br. Muslim<p>I would ask you to go to Yemen, Karbala, and Misr for example and especially India. The projects for the poor bohra (as well as muslims in the area) receive money upon monies from Sayedna every years for the costs of upkeep of musafir khanna, dargahs, water facilities, and housing. Money is given yearly by the Dai in Qarzana hasana and charity throughout the world. Majority of the cost for low income students (which are the majority of students) are paid by the Dai.<p>I can not tell you if the money used for these programs are zakat, khums, or out of the Dai's own funds, but I do know that he give this money. But unlike yourself, my brother, I would not make allegiations that he is pocketing the money for his own use with knowing the facts first.<p>Was salamu alayk<p>Side note: you don't have to go to Jamia for all schooling. Your can go for 2 to 4 years if your child is able.

Guest

Re: Is Syedna right? - a repost

#6

Unread post by Guest » Fri Dec 22, 2000 8:22 pm

Salams<br>I must apologize, I was responding to Br. Mumin post and accidently used Br. Muslim's name. Again I apologize.

Guest

Re: Is Syedna right? - a repost

#7

Unread post by Guest » Sat Dec 23, 2000 4:39 pm

Well there are enough facts, evidence and proof available around the world that monies hae been used by Khotar for there personal use and as well as buying residences and other places for there families.<br>Some of these facts are well documented in court cases and lawsuits. It all starts back from late syedna's days. lets talk about just one of them.<p>If you read the judgement of Bombay high court in Chandabhoy galla case in 1921 by Justice A.B. Marten, with hundreds of pages of testimony, court clearly found BADRI MAHAL was purchased from galla money, and this money was to be re-paid by Syedna to the Trust(Sir Adamjee Peerbhoy) at 6% interest. <p>So all this acquisition of wealth and power has not started today or 25 years ago, but since the late 51st dai took over. <p>Hyder.<p>

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Re: Is Syedna right? - a repost

#8

Unread post by Guest » Sat Dec 23, 2000 4:40 pm

Well there are enough facts, evidence and proof available around the world that monies hae been used by Khotar for there personal use and as well as buying residences and other places for there families.<br>Some of these facts are well documented in court cases and lawsuits. It all starts back from late syedna's days. lets talk about just one of them.<p>If you read the judgement of Bombay high court in Chandabhoy galla case in 1921 by Justice A.B. Marten, with hundreds of pages of testimony, court clearly found BADRI MAHAL was purchased from galla money, and this money was to be re-paid by Syedna to the Trust(Sir Adamjee Peerbhoy) at 6% interest. <p>So all this acquisition of wealth and power has not started today or 25 years ago, but since the late 51st dai took over. <p>Hyder.<p>

Guest

Re: Is Syedna right? - a repost

#9

Unread post by Guest » Sat Dec 23, 2000 4:40 pm

Well there are enough facts, evidence and proof available around the world that monies hae been used by Khotar for there personal use and as well as buying residences and other places for there families.<br>Some of these facts are well documented in court cases and lawsuits. It all starts back from late syedna's days. lets talk about just one of them.<p>If you read the judgement of Bombay high court in Chandabhoy galla case in 1921 by Justice A.B. Marten, with hundreds of pages of testimony, court clearly found BADRI MAHAL was purchased from galla money, and this money was to be re-paid by Syedna to the Trust(Sir Adamjee Peerbhoy) at 6% interest. <p>So all this acquisition of wealth and power has not started today or 25 years ago, but since the late 51st dai took over. <p>Hyder.<p>

Guest

Re: Is Syedna right? - a repost

#10

Unread post by Guest » Mon Dec 25, 2000 5:21 pm

Firstly I would like to tell you that in most mosques in Lahore, Pakistan, Shi'ites go into the Sunni mosques and do not fold their arms, and there is no problem. No one even asks. No one even cares if you are a Shi'ite. And some believe that the only name that Allah gave you was "Musalmaan" not Shi'ite or Sunni or Bohra!<p>Here is something to contemplate upon. A Dai, or an Imam is a human being. A human being can make mistakes. Prophet(sm) was also a human being and therefore he was prone to mistakes too. This fact is proven by Qur'an itself. For instance, the first ayat of Tahrim sura purports, "O my Prophet(sm)! Why are you prohibiting yourself from something which Allah has made halal for you?" The forty-fourth ayat of Tawba sura purports, "Why did you give them the permission? Allah has forgiven you this deed of yours." The sixty-seventh ayat of Anfal sura purports, "It would not be worthy of any Prophet to set free in return for property the captives in war. Killing most of them on the earth will cause them to become weaker. You are after worldly property. Yet Allah wishes you to earn thawab and attain Paradise and (its) blessings." We follow him because whenever he made a mistake, he was forgiven and corrected by Wahy. Plus Allah tells us that he is a model of example for us. What makes one think that a Dai should be followed at all for that matter.<p>Whenever there was a Guide in form of a Messenger or Prophet, the original Scripture/Teaching was no longer in its original shape. We must also understand that the miracles of all the prophets/messengers before Muhammad(sm) was restricted by spacio-temporal constraints. Miracle of Muhammad(sm) (Qur'an) lives to present day along with its challenge. What makes one think that we need a guide, when we have God's word? Read on and you shall find enough arguments as to why one does not need a guide.<p>In Qur'an, Allah tells us Bani Israil went astray because they followed their leaders blindly instead of following what had been sent down to them from Allah. And God's word precisely tells us that who followed their leaders blindly, went astray. At then Allah says, "O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end." [An-nisa 4:59]<p>See that there can be disputes after Allah and His Messenger and these must be referred to Qur'an and Sunnah/Hadith then. Disputes would not arise if one was to be followed blindly.<p>Qur'an itself tells that it is well-expounded, in Arabic so you may take warnings, manifest and easy to understand at several places. Arabic, because it was language of the people whom it was revealed upon. They are required to offer namaz in which they say fatiha and then a piece of text from Qur'an, whereby they understand what God wants from them. Prophet(sm)'s various ahadith where he quotes Qur'an, and tells the believers to follow it. And Qur'an also tells us that Bani Israil would believe in part of their scriptures and not the whole of it. <br>What makes me think I cannot understand Qur'an, when Qur'an says contrary?<p>And then when one looks at the Shi'ite faith, its all based on disputed hadith. Why shall I believe that a certain version of history is correct, just because I was born in that sect? And then history is distored, had had its biases. Sunni history speaks in favour of Umayyad and Abbassid dynasties whereas Shi'ite favours Imamate all the while. Allah guarantees Qur'an being the only thing that will be preserved forever. What for? So we recite Qur'an and base our religion on history, and fight upon it?<p>Just imagine that on the day of Judgement you are standing in front of Allah, where you will be judged. If Dai's interpretation is different from what Qur'an says, how do you answer Allah when you are asked, "here is my book, why did you not believe in what I had said?" Or for that matter, "why did you not understand Qur'an and acted upon it when I had asked you to?" How do you reply?<p>This is a food for thought, something I have been thinking about recently. Bohra community is not allowed to read Qur'an with translation, for the same reason. Well, lets then learn Arabic. And when one finds that even the Arabic version says somewhat the same things, where does one stand. These arguments weigh against all others that I have come across so far. And then why was Qur'an revealed to us? As Maulana Ali has said, <p>"The intellect is what arrives at what is correct through reasoning, and recognizes what has not yet happened through what has already taken place. Use your intellect to understand something when you hear about the intellect that examines, that is, and not just the intellect that repeats what it hears, for surely there are many who repeat the knowledge that they hear, and there are few who examine it."<p>"The intellect is better than desire, for the intellect makes you a king over your destiny, and desire makes you a slave of your destiny."<p>Regards