declairing sucessor

[porus]

Rasulullah grew up in a society of idol-worshippers. It is his genius that despite having achieved a very honored staus in his society- he was called al-ameen- before publicly announcing Islam, there is never a single instance recorded of him ever worshipping an idol. This may have been 'divinely' ordained. There is a lot of evidence that he was being prepared for his mission at an early age. It also took him away often on journey from the environment in which he grew up.

Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman were of a similar age to Muhammad and they were also prominent in the same society. Before they became Muslims, it is highly probable that they engaged in idol-worship. That would have been reasonable as they were all leading members of their society where religion was held in high regard. However, there is no evidence that they ever reverted to idol-worship after they became Muslims. Quite the contrary. They were vehemantly opposed to it.

As far as Ali is concerned, he was raised by Rasulullah and it is certain that Rasulullah kept Ali away from idol-worship. This highlights the fact that no taint of unbelief can be attached to Rasulullah or Ali. This was confirmed in the ayat of tatheer (33:33).

I am reposting edited version of what I wrote in the Shiachat forum.

"Now, to the last two sentences of the ayat 33:33.

إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنْكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا

1. Indeed, Allah wants banishment of ‘rijs’ from you, O ahl-al-bayt.
2. And, (Allah wants) you purified to perfection.

Allah indeed says “He wants”. Now, if Allah desires anything, it automatically comes to pass unless it refers to the behavior of human beings still alive. That is because, humans can thwart Allah’s will. However, in this ayat, he addresses those people, including the Prophet, whom He knows will always act in accordance with His will.

First sentence: Indeed, Allah wants banishment of ‘rijs’ from you, O ahl-al-bayt.

What did Allah remove from them? It was ‘rijs’. Translators use dictionary meanings like filth and abomination. In fact this cannot be the meaning here. “Rijs” refers to “unbelief in Allah and His message”. Hence, Allah is saying that ahl-ul-bayt can be relied upon to be the perfect guide from now on. In the hadith of ahl-ul-kisaa, Nabi (pbuh) says that Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain are his ahl-al-bayt. He actually does not include himself although that is clearly implied.

Support for rijs=unbelief comes from ayat 6:125

يَجْعَلُ اللَّهُ الرِّجْسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لا يُؤْمِنُونَ

Allah places “rijs” on unbelievers. Hence unbelief and “rijs” go together.

Second sentence: And, (Allah wants) you purified to perfection.

So, not only has any trace of “unbelief’ been removed from ahl-ul-bayt, but also they have been purified to utmost perfection. Allah thus blesses his perfect believers with the quality of never committing an error that might tempt even His strongest believers.

In conclusion, Allah’s wish is His command and it always comes to pass. And he has rendered Panjatan perfect among believers and perfect in adhering to the behavior that Allah demands from His devotees."

[profastian]

In my posts i never used abusive language. What makes you call everyone 'jahil' and 'himmar'?

I regret the language. However, please challenge me on the content of my posts and do not write what you imagine to be my character or the extent of my knowledge. I will desist from calling you anything unflattering. I cannot say the same for others.

Yeah, we know the extent of your knowledge, you nincompoop. Regurgitating, nonsense that's what you do.
This guy, calls the 3 as Hazrat, calls people like Syedi Sadiq Ali as a Mushriq and still the proggies has sympathies with him.
I understand that the proggies have problems with the current DAI, but sympathizing with people like him makes you all a
munafiq as he his. I had noticed his munafiqat the first time i had read his posts and I try to undermine him on every opportunity i get
and will continue to do so. And porus you call others himmar wahid and himmar sani. You are himmar akhir. In fact, it is
an insult to donkeys calling you a himmar.

[porus]

It seems porus have forgotten the Syedi Sadikali's Nasihat or he is more smatter.

"Burhane-din na chehra ma hi Rab nu che namood,
Karje jhooki ne ehne tu Sadiq Ali Sujood"

Porus go back to madrassa and relearn the nasihat.

My understandiing is that Shaikh Sadiq Ali lived and wrote his naseehats in the periods of 42nd, 43rd and 44th Dais. 44th Dai died in 1821 AD (1236 Hijri).

I conclude that the lines posted above were not written by Shaikh Sadiq Ali. If the name of the Dai has been replaced from an original, could someone please post the first lines of this original naseehat for verification. Aqs perhaps?

[porus]

It seems porus have forgotten the Syedi Sadikali's Nasihat or he is more smatter.

"Burhane-din na chehra ma hi Rab nu che namood,
Karje jhooki ne ehne tu Sadiq Ali Sujood"

Porus go back to madrassa and relearn the nasihat.

My understandiing is that Shaikh Sadiq Ali lived and wrote his naseehats in the periods of 42nd, 43rd and 44th Dais. 44th Dai died in 1821 AD (1236 Hijri).

I conclude that the lines posted above were not written by Shaikh Sadiq Ali. If the name of the Dai has been replaced from an original, could someone please post the first lines of this original naseehat for verification. Aqs perhaps?

Just as I suspected, the lines of the original naseehat by Sadiq Ali have been changed to refer to the current Dai. This is commonly done. The orginal was written to honor the 43rd Dai, Sayedna Abde-ali Saifuddin. He is called Saiful-Huda in the naseehat.

The original lines are:

"Saiful-Huda na chehra-ma hi rab-nu chhe namood,
karje jhuki-ne ehne tu Sadiq Ali sujood"

The qita'a immediately preceding these lines are:

"Dai chhe pan ganaaye chhe imam ma
chhe muqtada' azal thi salawaat-o-siyam ma
madhmoon hikmato na chhe jena kalaam
arwah ni haj yaqeen chhe jena salaam ma"

These lines border on shirk. What is surprising is that the naseehat starts with call to Tawheed.

These are the opening lines:

"Ek pal tu mat khuda-ne ae banda visaarje
tawheed ne jigar na waraq par charaavje
tawbah kari ne paap karela ghataarje
neki kari sawaab ni poonji wadhaarje"

[profastian]

Just as I suspected, the lines of the original naseehat by Sadiq Ali have been changed to refer to the current Dai. This is commonly done. The orginal was written to honor the 43rd Dai, Sayedna Abde-ali Saifuddin. He is called Saiful-Huda in the naseehat.

The original lines are:

"Saiful-Huda na chehra-ma hi rab-nu chhe namood,
karje jhuki-ne ehne tu Sadiq Ali sujood"

Of course numb-nut, the lines are changed. and it is not done only for the current Dai, but for every DAI after Syedna Abde Ali Saifuddin.
The poem was meant for all the Duats, not any particular DAI. (or do you think Sadiq Ali endorsed sadja to Syedna Abde Ali Saifuddin only )

[abd]

I regret the language. However, please challenge me on the content of my posts and do not write what you imagine to be my character or the extent of my knowledge. I will desist from calling you anything unflattering. I cannot say the same for others.

Yeah, we know the extent of your knowledge, you nincompoop. Regurgitating, nonsense that's what you do.
This guy, calls the 3 as Hazrat, calls people like Syedi Sadiq Ali as a Mushriq and still the proggies has sympathies with him.
I understand that the proggies have problems with the current DAI, but sympathizing with people like him makes you all a
munafiq as he his. I had noticed his munafiqat the first time i had read his posts and I try to undermine him on every opportunity i get
and will continue to do so. And porus you call others himmar wahid and himmar sani. You are himmar akhir. In fact, it is
an insult to donkeys calling you a himmar.

Well its proved beyond doubt that its not just current dai(TUS) or its not just Syedna Tahir Saifuddin(AQ) or its not just dais after 46th dai that they hate.
Readers on this forum should know that progressives have problems with the Dawa't itself. Progressive's views on Syedi Sadikali Saheb speaks a lot about how high they holds the regards for Dawa't and Dua't. (Syedi Sadikali Saheb was at the time of Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin(AQ), 43rd dai).

[abd]

These lines border on shirk. What is surprising is that the naseehat starts with call to Tawheed.

Dont be surprised. Syedi Sadikali Saheb understood Tawheed much better than you. And if you had read the full nasihat, then pay attention to these verses as well. (I am quoting below for benifit of readers)
"Tawheed ehne keh che, je hoye khuda na muka,
Gar che nathi khuda pan janiye khuda che."

[incredible]

"Tawheed ehne keh che, je hoye khuda na muka,
Gar che nathi khuda pan janiye khuda che."


can any one translate this for me please?

[porus]

These lines border on shirk. What is surprising is that the naseehat starts with call to Tawheed.

Dont be surprised. Syedi Sadikali Saheb understood Tawheed much better than you. And if you had read the full nasihat, then pay attention to these verses as well. (I am quoting below for benifit of readers)
"Tawheed ehne keh che, je hoye khuda na muka,
Gar che nathi khuda pan janiye khuda che."

Remember that the views that I post here are mine and mine alone.They are not the views of the Reformists or Progressives.

Please do not rely on just one post of mine. I have posted many similar posts in defense of my arguments over many years on this forum. I bring the Quran in defense of my views. You bring the argument that your Maula and Shaikk Sadiq Ali know it better but do not offer any arguments why you or they act in opposition to the Quran.

You say they know the Taawil. Taawil cannot be in opposition to Zaahir. Taawil is an explanation of Zaahir. Taawil does not mean that there is one meaning in Zaahir and a completely different meaning in Taawil. If that is what your aamil teaches you, he is not an aalim.

If Quran says, in Zaahir, that sajdah is for Allah alone, how can Taawil say that sajdah can be done to anyone other than Allah?

[porus]

I am under the impression that Shaikh Sadiq Ali had fallen from Kothar's grace sometime in the last 40-50 years and that the publication and reading of his naseehats were discouraged for a time. However, he was later reinstated.

Also, there used to be a premier publisher of Bohra religious books in Bombay called Alibhai Sharfali & Company. That too fell from Kothar's grace and was driven out of business.

Can anyone shed light on these?

[abd]

I am under the impression that Shaikh Sadiq Ali had fallen from Kothar's grace sometime in the last 40-50 years and that the publication and reading of his naseehats were discouraged for a time. However, he was later reinstated.

You are under the wrong impression. Syedi Sadikali's nasihats have been quoted frequently in publications during times of Syedna Tahir Saifuddin(AQ) and Syedna Mohammed BUrhanuddin(TUS).

Also, there used to be a premier publisher of Bohra religious books in Bombay called Alibhai Sharfali & Company. That too fell from Kothar's grace and was driven out of business.

Can anyone shed light on these?

Don't mixup things. Alibhai Sharafali were among the ones who joined the splinter group of Mehdibaghwala's of Nagpur during the times of Syedna Tahir Saifuddin(AQ). You can confirm from your sources.

[porus]

"Tawheed ehne keh che, je hoye khuda na muka,
Gar che nathi khuda pan janiye khuda che."


can any one translate this for me please?

That is Taawil!

Seriously though, this is what I think it means:

"Tawheed means that whatever happens, one abides in Allah
Even though evidence of Allah may not be apparent, one knows in their hearts that Allah exists"

Shaikh Sadiq Ali may have written this but his knowledge of Tawheed is suspect because he wrote, in the same naseehat, that one should do sajdah to Dai.

Tawheed is clearly described in the Quran. No book of Taawil can trump the Quran even if the Taawil is claimed to come from Prophet, Wasi, or Imam. There is no written Taawil from Prophet, Wasi or Imam. We have what is claimed to be Taawil written by various scholars during the Fatimid Khilafat. It may have been approved by the Fatimid Imams but they did not write it. We have books written by various Dais which further elaborate what those scholars wrote about Taawil. (What Bohras know of taawil had its origin in Rasaa'il Ikhwan as-Safa which were written during the period of pre-Fatimid hidden Imams).

Tawheed means Allah is one and unique and all his sifats, including obligations due to Allah, like sajdah are for Him alone. These attributes include namaaz, roza, and haj which are for Him alone. If anyone shares any of these sifats with anyone other than Allah, he would become a mushrik. That is why I think that Shaikh Sadiq Ali did not understand Tawheed and he must now be considered guilty of shirk.

[incredible]

no doubt Quraan speaks very clear regarding tawhid ,I have seen present dai doing zyarat of shaikh sadiq Ali...if he missed an important point of shirk how come duat still made his zyarat valid?

[porus]

I have seen present dai doing zyarat of shaikh sadiq Ali...if he missed an important point of shirk how come duat still made his zyarat valid?

"aawo bhai harkha
aapne bewu sarkha"

[incredible]

shirk in ISLAM


In Islam, Shirk (Arabic: شرك‎) or polytheism means to consider anyone god other than the true God, Allah.[1] Shirk is also associating partners with him, giving his characteristics to others beside him, or not believing in his characteristics.



"The superficial notion of shirk—the worship of material idols—must be understood on a more subtle plane as false gods hidden within one's intentions, attitudes and orientations; as all elements of hidden pride, vanity, ostentation, pretentiousness. As the Imam [`Ali ibn Abu Talib] says: 'Know that the slightest ostentatiousness (riya`) is polytheism.'"


Within Islam, shirk is the most heinous and unforgivable crime.[1] Allah forgives any sin except for committing shirk.(4:48) It is the vice that is opposed to the virtue of tawhid, literally "declaring [that which is] one", often translated into the English term monotheism.

[aziz]

In Islam, Shirk (Arabic: شرك‎) or polytheism means to consider anyone god other than the true God, Allah.[1] Shirk is also associating partners with him, giving his characteristics to others beside him, or not believing in his characteristics.,,

i do understand this because allah has 99 names and each name describes a characteritic which is also found in humans and not only muslims like eg rahman or rahim a human being can also be this to his family so is this shirk or not according to you aalims

[porus]

i do understand this because allah has 99 names and each name describes a characteritic which is also found in humans and not only muslims like eg rahman or rahim a human being can also be this to his family so is this shirk or not according to you aalims

This is a very good question.

Think of it this way. When you stand before Allah on the Day of Judgment, you are unlikely to be able to use any of these 99 qualities which you now have in minute quantity and Allah has in infinite quantity. Possessing these qualities in minuscule amount is not shirk. However, there are some characteristics, even some from these 99 names, that Allah has said are His alone.

It is Allah who decides which of his characteristics human can and should have and which are for Him alone. Allah will not and does act against His characteristics. Humans have the freedom to do what Allah wants or they can go against Allah's wishes.

Allah is Compassionate (Rahman) to an infinte degree. Allah wants humans to be compassionate towards other creatures.

Allah is Merciful (Raheem) to an infinite degree. Allah wants human to show mercy towards other creatures.

Allah is Forgiving (Ghaffar). Allah wants humans to forgive others who trespass against them. He does not give humans the privilege to forgive humans who trespass or sin against Allah.

Allah is a Creator (Khaliq). Allah creates out of nothing by a fiat, that is by saying Kun (Be). Allah wants humans to be creative but they cannot create anything out of nothing.

Allah wants humans to worship Him alone. Humans cannot worship any of His other creatures or creations.

Allah wants sajdah to be done to Him alone. Never to any other creature or to any other creation, human or God's.

Allah is Light (Noor). Absence of light is Darkness (Zulmat). In the Quran, Zulmat is absence of Allah's light and knowledge of enlightenment. Allah wants humans to be the Light of his Deen. Hence the name Noor al-Deen or Noordin.


I have made this simple for you without getting into the intricacies of Non-Duality or Singularity which is Allah's dhaat (essence). That will take us into taawil. Think of all human qualities as polarities, like good and bad, light and dark and so on. Humans cannot know or experience one side of the polarity without experiencing its opposite at least once. Quran is a document for humans and it makes it easy for humans to imagine Allah's qualities with reference to their earthly experience.

However, Quran warns us in Surat al-Ikhlaas that there is nothing that will capture Allah's essence or description for humans. All descriptions are bound to fail. However they temporarily allow us to make sense of our relations with Allah.

We can think of Allah as possessing any quality to its infinite degree only on the positive side of the polarity. For Allah, there is no opposite polarity, it is simply absence of negative polarity. That is why in Tashahud, you say after tahiyyat to Allah, that 'ma taba, wa khalosa, wa tahura, wa nama, wa zaka lillahi'. That is all the positive qualities are with Allah. Then you say, 'wa ma khabusa fa li ghayri-llahi'. That is, all negativity is not of Allah.

[incredible]

In Islam, Shirk (Arabic: شرك‎) or polytheism means to consider anyone god other than the true God, Allah.[1] Shirk is also associating partners with him, giving his characteristics to others beside him, or not believing in his characteristics.,,

i do understand this because allah has 99 names and each name describes a characteritic which is also found in humans and not only muslims like eg rahman or rahim a human being can also be this to his family so is this shirk or not according to you aalims

indeed a good question...i have a different say then porus.i will explain u difference between shukran lillah and shirk.

for example a person is being very rahim to his family, now if the family does shukran lillah for giving them such a rahim father and a husband it becomes shukran lillah,but if the same family starts doing sajdah for the man considering him as a god it becomes shirk.

if bohra do shukar to Allah for giving merciful dai it becomes shukranlillah but if same bohra start doing sajdah for him considering him wajhullah face of god and hands of god and etc it becomes shirk.

[Maqbool]

I am under the impression that Shaikh Sadiq Ali had fallen from Kothar's grace sometime in the last 40-50 years and that the publication and reading of his naseehats were discouraged for a time. However, he was later reinstated.

Also, there used to be a premier publisher of Bohra religious books in Bombay called Alibhai Sharfali & Company. That too fell from Kothar's grace and was driven out of business.

Can anyone shed light on these?

Yes I also know that the Nashihat was not allowed to read by bohras in some periods. The ABD is either lying or a young and do not know what happened in the past.

The Profestian is hardcore dawoodi, his head is full of the crap and will never except any other knowledge because it is brainwashed and reprogrammed.

Porus, I think most of the participant on this board, except 1 or 2 percents are gains lots of information/Knowledge from your post. I humbly request to ignore this 2 percent. They are not worth of replying.

[aqs]

Think of it this way. When you stand before Allah on the Day of Judgment, you are unlikely to be able to use any of these 99 qualities which you now have in minute quantity and Allah has in infinite quantity. Possessing these qualities in minuscule amount is not shirk. .

Now this has got interesting and i will like to comment on few things.
As the topic deals and very soon will dwell in haqiqat and not just tawill i will restrain myself from commenting on few things.

First and foremost will Humans 'stand' in the presence of our creator? will we be in human form when we will meet our creator to stand in front of him.

When one cant associate any thing or any form to Allah then how can a mere Human will possess the same quality though in whatever minute quantity.

there are some characteristics, even some from these 99 names, that Allah has said are His alone
It is Allah who decides which of his characteristics human can and should have and which are for Him alone. Allah will not and does act against His characteristics. Humans have the freedom to do what Allah wants or they can go against Allah's wishes.

i think its other way round, its humans who have ascribed these qualities to Allah to understand him better, like a person is compassionate to other so he thinks Allah will be infinitely compassionate so all such qualities were ascribed to Allah to understand him better.

Allah will not and does act against His characteristics. Humans have the freedom to do what Allah wants or they can go against Allah's wishes.

Its so very convinient, because these 99 names encompass every thing a human can think of.
just for example
if their are good rains which are a boon for humanity then Allah is Raheem.
If their are floods and devastation due rains then its some kind of unknown justice as Allah is Adil

Think of all human qualities as polarities, like good and bad, light and dark and so on. Humans cannot know or experience one side of the polarity without experiencing its opposite at least once. Quran is a document for humans and it makes it easy for humans to imagine Allah's qualities with reference to their earthly experience.

good point

However, Quran warns us in Surat al-Ikhlaas that there is nothing that will capture Allah's essence or description for humans. All descriptions are bound to fail. However they temporarily allow us to make sense of our relations with Allah.

so in essence all 99 name fail in ascribing any qualities to Allah except what you call temperory sense which they make for us. One must also put some light on how and when these 99 name were ascribed, as few of them dont find any mention in Quran as the name of Allah for example Al Rasheed

[abd]

The ABD is either lying or a young and do not know what happened in the past.

How old are you ? Can you tell me during which years the nasihats were not allowed to read?

[Muslim First]

It is amazing Abdes are discussing Tauhid

Abdes whose Sultan forces them to do Sujud and who exorts them "Mang from Hussain and who will give it to you".

I just like to say

GALA TO GHOT DIYA TERA KOTHAR NE
KAHAN SE AaYEGI SADA "LA ILAHA ILLALLA"
(Adopted from Iqbal)

[incredible]

It is amazing Abdes are discussing Tauhid

Abdes whose Sultan forces them to do Sujud and who exorts them "Mang from Hussain and who will give it to you".

I just like to say

GALA TO GHOT DIYA TERA KOTHAR NE
KAHAN SE AaYEGI SADA "LA ILAHA ILLALLA"
(Adopted from Iqbal)

If you are follower of first three maluun who killed bibi fatema and also broke all promises to prophet muhammed(saw) i advice you to stay of discussion we shiyate Ali do.

there are lot many fanatic wahabi website u can follow them.


request to admin:if you find this person again doing mockery to panjatan and Imam as well dai i think u have all rights to banned him.

[porus]

I am both surprised and thankful to aqs for responding to my last post on Allah's essence. The post was a bit rambling and was not properly argued, although I stand by it.

I intend to respond and continue the discussion shortly. I wish everyone on these forums my best wishes for Ramadan.