Adam,
This is getting a bit tiresome.
Most Bohras do not have the religious knowledge or theological training to justify their beliefs. They just go along with the flow.
Typical situation with mainstream Bohras, not a minority who did not progress beyond their initial brainwashing, is that they keep up with the social situation they were born into without giving much thought to why they have the religious beliefs that they do. Like I said, Dai and Imams are just a feature, a part of their 'social furniture'.
If a young man B, born to Bohras, Mr & Mrs A, does not care much about his parents' beliefs, would their love for their son diminish in any way? No. But if they ever have a brush with the ugliness of the cultish side of the community, they will experience the pressure to sever that love.
That young man will have friends who are in a similar situation. They will attend important religious gatherings, not as a religious duty, but as a social or familial duty.
Islam is the religion of Bohras. If you define Islam as devotion to Sayedna, then you are pontificating against the Quran. That is not Islam.
Let me give you an example of how beliefs are twisted to serve the needs of cult. Take maatam. You will say that it is in memory of Imam Husain's sacrifice. I will say that it is a display of devotion to Sayedna. Nobody cries for Imam Husain. They cry in sync with theatrical manipulation of emotions.
But as I said, this is getting a bit tiresome and we have discussed this issue many times on this board. I will give it a rest.
State your belief
Re: State your belief
Adam,Adam wrote:@PORUS.
Kindly reply to my ABOVE comment.
I even PMd you, just in case you missed it.
Let's forget about this minority / majority talk. (With brother profastians permission
And come back to what you (and all you proggies believe in, Leader, etc (Ref Above Comment)
I cannot speak for others, progressives or not. Progressives are a diverse set of people with varying beliefs and thinking and they cannot be pigeon-holed into cultish categories. Every individual is different.
Speaking for myself, I do not have any emotional attachment to any religious belief. I read history of ideas and society and acknowledge that that there are many ways of interpreting history.
As a working hypothesis, I accept Muhammad's mission and accept the Quran for what Muhammad claimed it to be, a word of God.
I acknowledge the legitimacy of Ali's succession to Muhammad and Imams up to Imam Jafar al-Sadiq. I discount claims of succession to Imamat of Hasan's children because of the way I interpret the Quran.
There are competing claimants to Imamat after Jafar al-Sadiq. None is more 'true' than any other.
I do not consider any Imam after Husain to be 'infallible'. I do not consider any Dai to be infallible.
I have interest in Fatimid literature, which is a specific interpretation of Islam by scholars and apparently approved by Fatimid Imams. However, I would reject any of it if appears to go against the Quran. I do not consider any line Fatimid or Shia Imams as infallible or 'chosen' by God.
I do not have the attitude "My leader, right or wrong'. I reserve the right to think for myself in all circumstances.
And I am a Dawoodi Bohra. You just have to ask my wife and others in my family to confirm that.
Re: State your belief
Adam, I know where you are going with this, and you're not the first one. Laying claim to "dawoodi bohra" on the basis of belief has been tried many times before and has not worked. In fact, you abdes come back to this doctrinal dogma again and again because you have no answer for the urgent questions reformists raise about illegitimacy of the "royal family", its financial and religious corruption, and extortion and coercion that is rampant in the community. The dawat and the belief system you so glowingly talk about has become the personal fiefdom of the "royal family" which thinks, acts and behaves like a modern-day mafia. And people like you are no more than its hitmen.
Stop hiding behind the esoteric dogma about the need for a leader - the dai in this case - and his purity and infallibility. The Dai is not infallible. No matter what doctrinal pyrotechnics you employ to justify their actions, there is ample evidence and documentation to show that the last two dais - Saifuddin and Burhanuddin - have acted in clear violation of not only the Quran but also of Bohra beliefs and tradition. The injunctions of the Quran are primary. No secondary Ismaili or Bohra belief, or the leader propped up by that belief, can have any legitimacy if that belief contradicts the primary Quranic tenet. The last two dais are guilty of violating the Quran and Bohra beliefs. So, it could be argued that at one level the reformist struggle is also an attempt to restore true Islamic and Ismaili beliefs.
Also understand that the majority of Bohras are Bohras by birth and not by belief. If you ask them about the "doctrinal need" for a leader the majority of them would be clueless. They know little about Bohra faith and still less about the Quran. They do what they are told to do partly out of fear and mostly because of the inherent human need to belong. The chest-thumping, feet-kissing, and now most recently dabba-carrying abdes are the result of social engineering. For more than a generation the "royal family" has imposed ignorance, fear and discipline to produce such abject, pitiful and helpless slaves. They are Dawoodi Bohras only in name. You call yourselves abdes for a reason, and the majority of you abdes don't know why you are abdes. So please stop throwing this esoteric bullshit at reformists. At least proportionally reformists have a better knowledge about Islam and Bohra faith than you abdes.
Stop hiding behind the esoteric dogma about the need for a leader - the dai in this case - and his purity and infallibility. The Dai is not infallible. No matter what doctrinal pyrotechnics you employ to justify their actions, there is ample evidence and documentation to show that the last two dais - Saifuddin and Burhanuddin - have acted in clear violation of not only the Quran but also of Bohra beliefs and tradition. The injunctions of the Quran are primary. No secondary Ismaili or Bohra belief, or the leader propped up by that belief, can have any legitimacy if that belief contradicts the primary Quranic tenet. The last two dais are guilty of violating the Quran and Bohra beliefs. So, it could be argued that at one level the reformist struggle is also an attempt to restore true Islamic and Ismaili beliefs.
Also understand that the majority of Bohras are Bohras by birth and not by belief. If you ask them about the "doctrinal need" for a leader the majority of them would be clueless. They know little about Bohra faith and still less about the Quran. They do what they are told to do partly out of fear and mostly because of the inherent human need to belong. The chest-thumping, feet-kissing, and now most recently dabba-carrying abdes are the result of social engineering. For more than a generation the "royal family" has imposed ignorance, fear and discipline to produce such abject, pitiful and helpless slaves. They are Dawoodi Bohras only in name. You call yourselves abdes for a reason, and the majority of you abdes don't know why you are abdes. So please stop throwing this esoteric bullshit at reformists. At least proportionally reformists have a better knowledge about Islam and Bohra faith than you abdes.
Re: State your belief
Very well said 
Kudos to Bro Humsafar and Porus.
Kudos to Bro Humsafar and Porus.
Re: State your belief
I guess, we won't be seeing Adam for a few days now 
,,,, as usually........... And even when he comes back,
And I'm willing to bet that he's going to use ever trick to avoid, getting into a discussion with Humsafar
,,,, as usually........... And even when he comes back, And I'm willing to bet that he's going to use ever trick to avoid, getting into a discussion with Humsafar
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profastian
- Posts: 1314
- Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am
Re: State your belief
Why the heck should Adam run away. All of Humsafar's post is just based on assumptions. He claims that most bohras have no idea about the faith. How the heck did he reach this conclusion. Did he conduct any study? He makes the claim that proggies are more knowledgeable about religion than adbes. I could make quite the contrary claims. Where I live, most of the proggies are jaahils with no knowledge whatsoever about religion and all the bohras are quite learned. Most of the proggies I know are proggies because either they do not want to pay wajebats or they do not want to sport beards and wear ridas. These are the only legitimate reasons they could give me.BooM wrote:I guess, we won't be seeing Adam for a few days now
And I'm willing to bet that he's going to use ever trick to avoid, getting into a discussion with Humsafar
Re: State your belief
@Porus
Thank you for replying, I believe we are making progress in clarifying beliefs, so please don't give up as yet.
I'm also tired, but ill still try to continue, to make sure its clear.
Most Bohras do not have the religious knowledge or theological training to justify their beliefs. They just go along with the flow.
Numbers again doesn't mean a thing. In every society there maybe those less learned, it doesn't make a difference in the bigger picture. But one thing is for certain, if they don't consider "walayat" (as stated in Daim ul Islaam", and alsowhich they also pledge in the mithaaq) the core of their belief, then they seize to exist what they claim. The most commoner true Dawoodi Bohra would know this.
Like I said, Dai and Imams are just a feature, a part of their 'social furniture'.
Again, this is against DB belief of walayat.
I'm sure even a PROG won't accept this, because they "supposedly" believe in the Fatimid Imams, till the 46th Dai.
(By the way PROGS out there, YOUR belief is been disputed, why is it that only the "abdes" have to defend DB beliefs, if you guys "claim" to follow similar beliefs? Or maybe you don't?
If a young man B, born to Bohras, Mr & Mrs A, does not care much about his parents' beliefs, would their love for their son diminish in any way?
Their love for their son better diminish! This is the key part of Islamic, let alone DB belief! Spiritual bonds over physical bonds!
Since you claim to understand the Quran, why don't you read up Surah Hud, and the story of the Son of Nooh Nabi AS.For the same reason, many people fought wars with their own families, during the time of Rasulullah SAW
(I know you don't believe in the Fatimi Imams and Dais, but I sincerely hope you follow the Prophets).
They will attend important religious gatherings, not as a religious duty, but as a social or familial duty.
Again, this would be wrong, and their problem. Niyyat is the key here.
If someone entered a Masjid (eg Ka'ba) for sight seeing, he would get want he comes for, and in the eyes of Allah, he would be wrong.
Islam is the religion of Bohras. If you define Islam as devotion to Sayedna, then you are pontificating against the Quran. That is not Islam.
Islam is the religion of the DBs. Islam is the 7 daims, (all according to the quran) 1st being of walayat, which calls for the necessity of a leader (Imam or Dai) from the beginning , and every day and age. And today we adhere to Islam in continuity, by accepting our Dai.
(COMMON Progs, isn't this what you guys believe also, why you leaving us all alone here!)
Speaking for myself, I do not have any emotional attachment to any religious belief.
That's pretty obvious.
Then why do you claim to be a DB!
Is there a difference in "Religion" and "Religious belief"?! Islam?
As a working hypothesis, I accept Muhammad's mission and accept the Quran for what Muhammad claimed it to be, a word of God.
These words from you are really shocking and (from how I read it) is an insult to Islam, I'm surprised even the Wahabis on the forum aren't making an issue.
But, if you sincerely didn't mean disrespect, I don't want to make an issue of it, like many progs tend to do. But, in the future, refrain from just "Muhammad", and "claimed it to be", it hints that you don't believe in it.
I do not consider any Imam after Husain to be 'infallible'. I do not consider any Dai to be infallible.
Since you are a learned scholar,
On WHAT BASIS (scrpits, tafseer, teacher etc) do you consider the Imams BEFORE Imam Husain AS infallible?
On WHAT BASIS (scrpits, tafseer, teacher etc) do you consider the Imams AFTER Imam Husain AS non- infallible?
I do not have the attitude "My leader, right or wrong'.
Neither do we. Since according to true DB beliefs, we consider Imams and Duats to be infallible, so there is no question of "wrong".
Soemtimes True "Right" can be perceived as "wrong" by "others", but it doesn't make it wrong.
And I am a Dawoodi Bohra. You just have to ask my wife and others in my family to confirm that.
In light of my above comments "I" really wouldn't agree with that.
For the sake of argument, what is YOUR definition of "Dawoodi Bohra" eg Religion/belief, its key features.
(I know there are some articles on this forum that define DB, but that's all nonsense when you see the reality of the way the Progs insult the Fatimid Imams and Duats.)
Again PORUS.
You didn't answer:
Who are you following? What tafseer of the Quran do you follow? Who's your teacher on Islamic and DB belief? Who leads your Namaaz? What books do base your beliefs on?
And WHY?
Also, the whole "friendship vs belief" by Imam Ali Zayn al Abedeen AS- comment was never answered, what's your stand point on that?
@HUMSAFAR
Laying claim to "dawoodi bohra" on the basis of belief has been tried many times before and has not worked.
Why has it Not worked?
DB is a belief, whether you like it or not.
If you are a prog, or claim to be a DB, then what can I ask is your belief? What is your definition of Islam till yourself?
Ismaili or Bohra belief, or the leader propped up by that belief, can have any legitimacy if that belief contradicts the primary Quranic tenet.
Well, if you had ANY idea of DB belief and its books, you would have understood how it is in accordance to the Quran. A leader in every age is necessary.
I'd ask you the same as I asked PORUS and others out there.
Also understand that the majority of Bohras are Bohras by birth and not by belief. If you ask them about the "doctrinal need" for a leader the majority of them would be clueless.
Their concept according to DB belief would be incorrect, because its all about belief.
Their being clueless doesn't make anything right or wrong, if they don't know, everyone should try to understand.
First discuss core religious beliefs, EVERYTHING else is secondary.
I have said it before, I have no problem right now with those who are following a sect of Sunni Islam, Wahabism, Shiism etc.
(My only question for them is why do they care about affairs DBs)
I am only participating in this forum because I have a problem with the people claiming to be DBs, but aren't, and are insulting its name.
HAMSAFAR
Do you claim to be a DB? What is your definition of DB?
Who are you following? What tafseer of the Quran do you follow? Who's your teacher on Islamic and DB belief? Who leads your Namaaz? What books do base your beliefs on?
And WHY?
Re: State your belief
Adam,
I don't remember asking Allah, to be born a bohra, but I was
..
When I was a few weeks old, I don't remember having the choices not be circumcised, but I was ...
I don't remember anyone asking my sisters before circumcising them, but they were...
You people mess up our childhood, our family relationship & plunder our body-parts, our freedom, our saving, OUR ISLAM & tell us to leave if we are not satisfied, so that you can continue with your evil deeds
??
I don't remember asking Allah, to be born a bohra, but I was
.. When I was a few weeks old, I don't remember having the choices not be circumcised, but I was ...
I don't remember anyone asking my sisters before circumcising them, but they were...
You people mess up our childhood, our family relationship & plunder our body-parts, our freedom, our saving, OUR ISLAM & tell us to leave if we are not satisfied, so that you can continue with your evil deeds
??-
profastian
- Posts: 1314
- Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am
Re: State your belief
You are welcome to get your bits of skin back. We will pay for the operation. Then leave us alone.BooM wrote:Adam,
I don't remember asking Allah, to be born a bohra, but I was
When I was a few weeks old, I don't remember having the choices not be circumcised, but I was ...
I don't remember anyone asking my sisters before circumcising them, but they were...
You people mess up our childhood, mess up our family relationship and plunder our body-parts, our freedom, our saving, OUR ISLAM & tell us to leave if we are not satisfied, so that you can continue with your evil deeds
Re: State your belief
haha.. I can't trust you guys on that.. I might wake up with patched elephant skin and furry balls
Re: State your belief
Please do not generalize, Who says we are all happy with Burhan? I am certainly not!!!Adam wrote: It really shouldn't concern you as he is not YOUR leader.
He is ours, and we are happy.
And you know what Bawa Adam? There are many more like me inside the community who are grave haters of Sayedna, so please keep your love to yourself, do not include our whole community in your fake statistics.
We are minority within the community who want change and fed up of Burhan, his leaching family and his fanatics.
Re: State your belief
Adam, you're right the core religious beliefs are the primary issue. We reformists are dawoodi bohras and our core religious beliefs are the same as prescribed in the Quran, Daim ul Islam and other source books by Fatimid, Mustalian and Tayyebi dais. We, and as all dawoodi bohras should, follow the tenets of Bohra faith and tradition as taught and exemplified by the Dais of old.
The question is not what are the core religious beliefs of (reformist) dawoodi bohras, because our beliefs have remained unchanged. The question is what are the core religious beliefs of the "royal family" and the people who worship them?
What core belief and tradition your follow when you make the dai infallible?
What core belief and tradition you follow when kiss the feet of the dai?
What core belief and tradition you follow when you worship the dai as demigod?
What core belief and tradition you follow when you treat the extended family of the dai as "royals"?
What core belief and tradition you follow when you allow the dai and his family to extort or coaxs huge sums of money from bohras?
What core belief and tradition you follow when you allow the dai not to show what he does with that money?
What core belief and tradition you follow when the dai and his "royal family" live extravagant and ostentatious life while many bohras live in poverty?
What core belief and tradition you follow when the dai does not spend the money from bait al maal for the welfare of the community?
What core belief and tradition you follow when the dai ex-communicates bohras?
What core belief and tradition you follow when the miasq to the dai make virtual salves of bohras?
What core belief and tradition you follow when bohras have to seek raza for every little thing they do?
What core belief and tradition you follow when the dai literally and legally claims to be the owner of all bohra properties?
What core belief and tradition you follow when bohras perform matam on every occasion?
What core belief and tradition you follow when local jamats are denied autonomy to conduct their own affairs?
What core belief and tradition you follow when dai imposes Taliban-like dress code and discipline on bohras?
What core belief and tradition you follow when you celebrate Dai's salgirah for weeks on end but do not give similar importance to Prophet Mohammed or Muala Ali's salgirahs?
What core belief and tradition you follow when you make such a tamasha out Moharrum majlises?
I could go on but this would suffice for now. The fact is that everything the hijacked Dawat does today is a direct violation of our core religious beliefs. The onus is on you and your masters to define your core religious beliefs.
The question is not what are the core religious beliefs of (reformist) dawoodi bohras, because our beliefs have remained unchanged. The question is what are the core religious beliefs of the "royal family" and the people who worship them?
What core belief and tradition your follow when you make the dai infallible?
What core belief and tradition you follow when kiss the feet of the dai?
What core belief and tradition you follow when you worship the dai as demigod?
What core belief and tradition you follow when you treat the extended family of the dai as "royals"?
What core belief and tradition you follow when you allow the dai and his family to extort or coaxs huge sums of money from bohras?
What core belief and tradition you follow when you allow the dai not to show what he does with that money?
What core belief and tradition you follow when the dai and his "royal family" live extravagant and ostentatious life while many bohras live in poverty?
What core belief and tradition you follow when the dai does not spend the money from bait al maal for the welfare of the community?
What core belief and tradition you follow when the dai ex-communicates bohras?
What core belief and tradition you follow when the miasq to the dai make virtual salves of bohras?
What core belief and tradition you follow when bohras have to seek raza for every little thing they do?
What core belief and tradition you follow when the dai literally and legally claims to be the owner of all bohra properties?
What core belief and tradition you follow when bohras perform matam on every occasion?
What core belief and tradition you follow when local jamats are denied autonomy to conduct their own affairs?
What core belief and tradition you follow when dai imposes Taliban-like dress code and discipline on bohras?
What core belief and tradition you follow when you celebrate Dai's salgirah for weeks on end but do not give similar importance to Prophet Mohammed or Muala Ali's salgirahs?
What core belief and tradition you follow when you make such a tamasha out Moharrum majlises?
I could go on but this would suffice for now. The fact is that everything the hijacked Dawat does today is a direct violation of our core religious beliefs. The onus is on you and your masters to define your core religious beliefs.
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profastian
- Posts: 1314
- Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am
Re: State your belief
Humsafar wrote:Adam, you're right the core religious beliefs are the primary issue. We reformists are dawoodi bohras and our core religious beliefs are the same as prescribed in the Quran, Daim ul Islam and other source books by Fatimid, Mustalian and Tayyebi dais. We, and as all dawoodi bohras should, follow the tenets of Bohra faith and tradition as taught and exemplified by the Dais of old.
The tradition we follow is that DAI-ul-mutlaq = Imam (only when imam is in seclusion). I think every reformist agrees on that and believes that. So in all your questions just replace Imam with DAI
The question is not what are the core religious beliefs of (reformist) dawoodi bohras, because our beliefs have remained unchanged. The question is what are the core religious beliefs of the "royal family" and the people who worship them?
What core belief and tradition your follow when you make the dai infallible?
Imam is certainly infallible.
What core belief and tradition you follow when kiss the feet of the dai?
Many instances of people kissing feet of imams
What core belief and tradition you follow when you worship the dai as demigod?
We donot do that
What core belief and tradition you follow when you treat the extended family of the dai as "royals"?
I would treat imam's extended family as royals. But its a personal choice. No compulsion. However, treating the Hudood of imam( Hudood of DAI) with reverence is an accepted bohra tradition.
What core belief and tradition you follow when you allow the dai and his family to extort or coaxs huge sums of money from bohras?
Khumus is commanded for imams, which is 20% of your earning. Note that this amount is on earnings, not on savings. So in comparison to this, we only pay pittance.
What core belief and tradition you follow when you allow the dai not to show what he does with that money?
Would you ask the imam what he does with the money?
What core belief and tradition you follow when the dai and his "royal family" live extravagant and ostentatious life while many bohras live in poverty?
Look at lives of Fatimids.
What core belief and tradition you follow when the dai does not spend the money from bait al maal for the welfare of the community?
Money belongs to imam, he can spend it on welfare or on himself. His choice.
What core belief and tradition you follow when the dai ex-communicates bohras?
If imam says you are not a momim, would you remain one?
What core belief and tradition you follow when the miasq to the dai make virtual salves of bohras?
I am certainly a literal (not virtual) slave of imam-uz-zaman
What core belief and tradition you follow when bohras have to seek raza for every little thing they do?
No compulsion.
What core belief and tradition you follow when the dai literally and legally claims to be the owner of all bohra properties?
Imam is the owner of lives and property of all momineens.
What core belief and tradition you follow when bohras perform matam on every occasion?
Stupid question.
What core belief and tradition you follow when local jamats are denied autonomy to conduct their own affairs?
What kind of autonomy. All jamats members are part of the community. Only the aamil is appointed by the kothar. The jamaat members wield considerable power even over the aamil. This is the same system as was implemented in the Fatimid's era. Go read up some history
What core belief and tradition you follow when dai imposes Taliban-like dress code and discipline on bohras?
Stupid question.
What core belief and tradition you follow when you celebrate Dai's salgirah for weeks on end but do not give similar importance to Prophet Mohammed or Muala Ali's salgirahs?
Imam-uz-zaman's milad would certainly be celebrated with more pomp than milad-un-nabi in his zahoor.
What core belief and tradition you follow when you make such a tamasha out Moharrum majlises?
if you think moharram majlis is a tamasha, then you are not a momin, let alone a Dawoodi bohra. Ask any shia, or any sect which loves ahle-e-bait.
I could go on but this would suffice for now. The fact is that everything the hijacked Dawat does today is a direct violation of our core religious beliefs. The onus is on you and your masters to define your core religious beliefs.
Re: State your belief
Wonderful replies profastian. Not a single reply though provides any reference to any Fatimid literature or Quranic injunction. The best that profastian can come up with is - "Ask any shia". Brilliant!!
Re: State your belief
Dr. Faust,
Which core belief allows you to equate the Imam (in absentia) with the Dai?
Which core belief allows you to equate the power and stature of the Imam (in absentia) with the Dai?
Until you satisfactorily prove this, all you answers to above questions can be dismissed as invalid. Not that they are valid otherwise, each of your answer can be and has been contested.
Which core belief allows you to equate the Imam (in absentia) with the Dai?
Which core belief allows you to equate the power and stature of the Imam (in absentia) with the Dai?
Until you satisfactorily prove this, all you answers to above questions can be dismissed as invalid. Not that they are valid otherwise, each of your answer can be and has been contested.
Re: State your belief
Adam,
Let me make it very clear again. I do not speak for Progressives. My views are my own. While I support the stated goal of Progressives, there are many who would disagree with me on many fundamental issues.
Core beliefs of a Muslim are in the Quran not in Daaimul Islam, which is an interpretation. Core belief is tied up with Tawheed and absolute submission to Allah, and Allah alone. Muhammad's life is Allah's recommended example for Muslims to follow. While Humsafar has asked you to justify Dai's actions in terms of core beliefs of a Muslim, let me add this.
Did Muhammad offer sajda to anyone except Allah? Especially to another human? Except in revisionist and highly suspect rendition of Bohra history, did Muhammad beat his breasts for Husain or his uncle Hamza, the first martyr for Islam?
My quote:
“As a working hypothesis, I accept Muhammad's mission and accept the Quran for what Muhammad claimed it to be, a word of God. “
Not just for me, but also for all Muslims that can only be a hypothesis. Not a soul on earth can prove the ‘truth’ of the Kalima (la ilaha illa-llah, muhammadun rasulullh). If you decide to invest emotional charge into Kalima then it is your choice. It does not become ‘Truth’. A person growing up in the 21st century cannot be ignorant of many religious traditions which make similar claims for their own traditions. None are ‘true’. Because none can be proven to be true.
No one except Allah can decide who His true followers are. If Allah says in the Quran that Nuh’s son was not His true follower and describes how He dealt with him, it does not give anyone else a license to treat anyone in a similar manner.
You insist on Walayat as one of the pillars of Islam. Does Quran state that it is a pillar? It does not. Walayat is a theological extension by Fatimids of the ayat of ‘muwaddata al-qurba’ (42:23), among others, to provide a political lynchpin to their empire. The ayat has been interpreted variously. You invest emotional charge into one interpretation. As a scholar, I consider competing interpretations and their implications. Is Muhammad asking for love of ‘his’ relatives’ or is he asking for love of ‘your’ relatives? That is one difference. There are others.
And which relatives would you consider? How about the line of twelver Imams or the Aga Khan or Zaydi Imams or Imams from Hasan’s progeny. They are all from Muhammad’s qurbat. Do you love them equally? Why not? (There is no answer to that question, unless you plumb the depth of a barrel of bigotry). Add to that the fact that no Dai has ever been from within Muhammad’s qurbat. (As a matter of historical record, when did the love for Dai become a pillar? Did Hurrat al-Malika claim that for the Dai she appointed?)
As to the ayats asking you to follow ulul amr, I would argue that this is a recommendation and, in any case, there is a dispute about who ulul amr are in this day and age. Just like competing Imams and Mawlanas, it is quite arbitrary whom you follow except that you invest emotional charge with the explanation that you have been brainwashed with. That does not give you any right to deny anyone else the same benefit. Dawoodi Bohras may be brought up with strong beliefs like you or not. They retain the right to belong to community because ultimately it is a cultural group with shared traditions not primarily a group slavishly attached to the Dai.
If a person displays his love for the Dai, how can you judge if it pleases Allah? Only Allah can judge. And if a person does not display his love for the Dai but otherwise is true to the Quran as he understands it, how can anyone other that Allah judge him? And how can anyone even think that that becomes the reason for severing the familial ties that Allah Himself has created.
With regard to the pillars of Islam, if a person does not offer namaaz, does he cease being a Dawoodi Bohra? His Islam may be questioned, but only by Allah.
If a person does not fast during Ramazan, does he cease being a Dawoodi Bohra? His Islam may be questioned, but only by Allah.
If a person does not always follow the rules of ‘tahaarat’, does he cease being a Dawoodi Bohra? His Islam may be questioned, but only by Allah.
If a person does not always pay his zakaat, does he cease being a Dawoodi Bohra? His Islam may be questioned, but only by Allah. (This is a thorny one. Because it involves money for the Dai, who claims that he is not accountable for disbursement of zakaat he collects, he may well be judged by other than Allah. You may wish to enlighten us about this lack of accountability on his part with reference to the Quran. And does Quran say if you can judge the person who does not pay his zakaat to the Dai?).
If a person does not engage in Jihad, does he cease being a Dawoodi Bohra? His Islam may be questioned, but only by Allah.
If a person does not perform Haj, does he cease being a Dawoodi Bohra? His Islam may be questioned, but only by Allah.
I think that you will find Dawoodi Bohras in categories ranging from those absolutely devoted to pillars to those who could not care less. I am sure you know some yourself.
For practical purposes, the difference between Dawoodi Bohras is between those who have paid their dues to the Jamaat and those who have not. If a Bohra wants to use facilities of the Jamaat then, he will have to pay up. The quality of his ‘faith’ is immaterial.
I think that I have demonstrated that your stance is unacceptable and has an aura of fanaticism and bigotry associated with it. A Dawoodi Bohra is the one who is born to Dawoodi Bohra parents. That is Allah’s wish. You have no say in severing that bond. If you do, it can never be in service of Allah but an action of a political dupe.
Let me repeat, if you invest emotional charge into what are simply specific interpretations of history you have been brain-washed with and consider them exclusive ‘truth’, you become a potential pawn in power games of the rich and powerful. And you should be aware of Quran’s warnings to the rich and powerful.
Let me make it very clear again. I do not speak for Progressives. My views are my own. While I support the stated goal of Progressives, there are many who would disagree with me on many fundamental issues.
Core beliefs of a Muslim are in the Quran not in Daaimul Islam, which is an interpretation. Core belief is tied up with Tawheed and absolute submission to Allah, and Allah alone. Muhammad's life is Allah's recommended example for Muslims to follow. While Humsafar has asked you to justify Dai's actions in terms of core beliefs of a Muslim, let me add this.
Did Muhammad offer sajda to anyone except Allah? Especially to another human? Except in revisionist and highly suspect rendition of Bohra history, did Muhammad beat his breasts for Husain or his uncle Hamza, the first martyr for Islam?
My quote:
“As a working hypothesis, I accept Muhammad's mission and accept the Quran for what Muhammad claimed it to be, a word of God. “
Not just for me, but also for all Muslims that can only be a hypothesis. Not a soul on earth can prove the ‘truth’ of the Kalima (la ilaha illa-llah, muhammadun rasulullh). If you decide to invest emotional charge into Kalima then it is your choice. It does not become ‘Truth’. A person growing up in the 21st century cannot be ignorant of many religious traditions which make similar claims for their own traditions. None are ‘true’. Because none can be proven to be true.
No one except Allah can decide who His true followers are. If Allah says in the Quran that Nuh’s son was not His true follower and describes how He dealt with him, it does not give anyone else a license to treat anyone in a similar manner.
You insist on Walayat as one of the pillars of Islam. Does Quran state that it is a pillar? It does not. Walayat is a theological extension by Fatimids of the ayat of ‘muwaddata al-qurba’ (42:23), among others, to provide a political lynchpin to their empire. The ayat has been interpreted variously. You invest emotional charge into one interpretation. As a scholar, I consider competing interpretations and their implications. Is Muhammad asking for love of ‘his’ relatives’ or is he asking for love of ‘your’ relatives? That is one difference. There are others.
And which relatives would you consider? How about the line of twelver Imams or the Aga Khan or Zaydi Imams or Imams from Hasan’s progeny. They are all from Muhammad’s qurbat. Do you love them equally? Why not? (There is no answer to that question, unless you plumb the depth of a barrel of bigotry). Add to that the fact that no Dai has ever been from within Muhammad’s qurbat. (As a matter of historical record, when did the love for Dai become a pillar? Did Hurrat al-Malika claim that for the Dai she appointed?)
As to the ayats asking you to follow ulul amr, I would argue that this is a recommendation and, in any case, there is a dispute about who ulul amr are in this day and age. Just like competing Imams and Mawlanas, it is quite arbitrary whom you follow except that you invest emotional charge with the explanation that you have been brainwashed with. That does not give you any right to deny anyone else the same benefit. Dawoodi Bohras may be brought up with strong beliefs like you or not. They retain the right to belong to community because ultimately it is a cultural group with shared traditions not primarily a group slavishly attached to the Dai.
If a person displays his love for the Dai, how can you judge if it pleases Allah? Only Allah can judge. And if a person does not display his love for the Dai but otherwise is true to the Quran as he understands it, how can anyone other that Allah judge him? And how can anyone even think that that becomes the reason for severing the familial ties that Allah Himself has created.
With regard to the pillars of Islam, if a person does not offer namaaz, does he cease being a Dawoodi Bohra? His Islam may be questioned, but only by Allah.
If a person does not fast during Ramazan, does he cease being a Dawoodi Bohra? His Islam may be questioned, but only by Allah.
If a person does not always follow the rules of ‘tahaarat’, does he cease being a Dawoodi Bohra? His Islam may be questioned, but only by Allah.
If a person does not always pay his zakaat, does he cease being a Dawoodi Bohra? His Islam may be questioned, but only by Allah. (This is a thorny one. Because it involves money for the Dai, who claims that he is not accountable for disbursement of zakaat he collects, he may well be judged by other than Allah. You may wish to enlighten us about this lack of accountability on his part with reference to the Quran. And does Quran say if you can judge the person who does not pay his zakaat to the Dai?).
If a person does not engage in Jihad, does he cease being a Dawoodi Bohra? His Islam may be questioned, but only by Allah.
If a person does not perform Haj, does he cease being a Dawoodi Bohra? His Islam may be questioned, but only by Allah.
I think that you will find Dawoodi Bohras in categories ranging from those absolutely devoted to pillars to those who could not care less. I am sure you know some yourself.
For practical purposes, the difference between Dawoodi Bohras is between those who have paid their dues to the Jamaat and those who have not. If a Bohra wants to use facilities of the Jamaat then, he will have to pay up. The quality of his ‘faith’ is immaterial.
I think that I have demonstrated that your stance is unacceptable and has an aura of fanaticism and bigotry associated with it. A Dawoodi Bohra is the one who is born to Dawoodi Bohra parents. That is Allah’s wish. You have no say in severing that bond. If you do, it can never be in service of Allah but an action of a political dupe.
Let me repeat, if you invest emotional charge into what are simply specific interpretations of history you have been brain-washed with and consider them exclusive ‘truth’, you become a potential pawn in power games of the rich and powerful. And you should be aware of Quran’s warnings to the rich and powerful.
Re: State your belief
The answer for all those questions is simple.
I will answer in short,
Pls answer which till which Imam or Dai you believe till. I can answer accordingly.
Very simply:
Core belief is belief in Imam and Dai of all times.
Daim ul Islam (which just stated earlier is followed by proggies) states walayat of Saheb uz Zaman (leader of the time) is the first of 7 pillars.
YES
Did the Ismailis/Fatimids/Tayyibis/Dawoodi Bohras (all refer to the same people of the same belief), did they live in the past without a leader?
NO
Do Proggies have an Imam or Dai as a leader?
NO
So are proggies Ismailis/Fatimids/Tayyibis/Dawoodi Bohras?
NO
For understanding the powers and infallibility of the Dai in Satr, please read Syedna Hatims , Majalis Hatimiyah.
And a book written just for this reason was by Syedi Luqmanjee in refutation of the Hujumiyyahs. Aka, the proggies of that time! (Written before 46th Dai, so you ll should have any problem accepting it).
Ill clarify my statement:
Belief in Imam an/ord Dai is Primary. All else is secondary.
Who's your leader, Imam/Dai?
Now, please answer my questions, mentioned before this.
I will answer in short,
Pls answer which till which Imam or Dai you believe till. I can answer accordingly.
Very simply:
Core belief is belief in Imam and Dai of all times.
Daim ul Islam (which just stated earlier is followed by proggies) states walayat of Saheb uz Zaman (leader of the time) is the first of 7 pillars.
YES
Did the Ismailis/Fatimids/Tayyibis/Dawoodi Bohras (all refer to the same people of the same belief), did they live in the past without a leader?
NO
Do Proggies have an Imam or Dai as a leader?
NO
So are proggies Ismailis/Fatimids/Tayyibis/Dawoodi Bohras?
NO
For understanding the powers and infallibility of the Dai in Satr, please read Syedna Hatims , Majalis Hatimiyah.
And a book written just for this reason was by Syedi Luqmanjee in refutation of the Hujumiyyahs. Aka, the proggies of that time! (Written before 46th Dai, so you ll should have any problem accepting it).
Ill clarify my statement:
Belief in Imam an/ord Dai is Primary. All else is secondary.
Who's your leader, Imam/Dai?
Now, please answer my questions, mentioned before this.
Re: State your belief
You should clarify that this is primary only according to Dawoodi Bohra beliefs. This is not sanctioned in the Quran or by the Prophet of Islam (saw)Ill clarify my statement:
Belief in Imam an/ord Dai is Primary. All else is secondary.
Re: State your belief
Adam,
Which core belief allows you to confer the power, authority and stature of Imam (in absentia) on the dai? Please give actual references.
Which core belief allows the Dai to act, behave and be treated and obeyed like the Imam. Please give actual references.
Porus, that was a great post.
Which core belief allows you to confer the power, authority and stature of Imam (in absentia) on the dai? Please give actual references.
Which core belief allows the Dai to act, behave and be treated and obeyed like the Imam. Please give actual references.
Porus, that was a great post.
Re: State your belief
Adam,
Let me make one further point about Daaimul Islam. One of the intents of that document was to invite all who did not completely accept Fatimid Imam's authority as a ruler for all Muslims by offering a polemical and theological justification for that authority. It was and remains a zahiri document. You appear to imply that the intent of the document was to sort out believers in Imam's authority from non-believer's in that authority. And to identify who are Muslims and who are not. (Or in the present age, to identify who are Dawoodi Bohras and who are not, like you appear to be doing.) Please clarify that that is not what you imply but that you are here to convince Muslims of the rightful authority of the Fatimd Imam Or your Imam) as intended by Daaimul Islam.
A related issue is that you appear to imply that it was a Fatimid Imam that appointed Dai al-Mutlaq as his deputy and to act as Imam in all ways except in name. This is not borne out by history. It was Hurrat al-Malika who appointed Dai al-Mutlaq. In all probability, she had no idea of Imam's whereabouts.
No authorized amendment by any Imam exists to inform us that there is no difference between an Imam and Dai and which is incorporated in a revised version of Daaimul Islam. If a Dai arrogates to himself that authority, then it is a questionable innovation.
***
Humsafar, anajmi,
Thanks for the compliments. I extend the same to you.
Let me make one further point about Daaimul Islam. One of the intents of that document was to invite all who did not completely accept Fatimid Imam's authority as a ruler for all Muslims by offering a polemical and theological justification for that authority. It was and remains a zahiri document. You appear to imply that the intent of the document was to sort out believers in Imam's authority from non-believer's in that authority. And to identify who are Muslims and who are not. (Or in the present age, to identify who are Dawoodi Bohras and who are not, like you appear to be doing.) Please clarify that that is not what you imply but that you are here to convince Muslims of the rightful authority of the Fatimd Imam Or your Imam) as intended by Daaimul Islam.
A related issue is that you appear to imply that it was a Fatimid Imam that appointed Dai al-Mutlaq as his deputy and to act as Imam in all ways except in name. This is not borne out by history. It was Hurrat al-Malika who appointed Dai al-Mutlaq. In all probability, she had no idea of Imam's whereabouts.
No authorized amendment by any Imam exists to inform us that there is no difference between an Imam and Dai and which is incorporated in a revised version of Daaimul Islam. If a Dai arrogates to himself that authority, then it is a questionable innovation.
***
Humsafar, anajmi,
Thanks for the compliments. I extend the same to you.
-
ghulam muhammed
- Posts: 11653
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm
Re: State your belief
Bro porus,
An excellent reply and logical answers on the subject. However it is more then likely that Adam is planted over here by kothar who operates from the premise of saifee/badri mahal and if not so then he has truly exhibited himself as the real cult follower whose focus is ONLY the cult leader and everything else is purely insignificant for him. There is only an emphasis of ME and MY LEADER and everything else is insignificant. There are various incidents wherein cults have even performed mass suicides as the word of their leader is final and divine. They refuse to think out of their own freewill and they dont have a mind of their own. It is a herculean task to convince these people otherwise.
An excellent reply and logical answers on the subject. However it is more then likely that Adam is planted over here by kothar who operates from the premise of saifee/badri mahal and if not so then he has truly exhibited himself as the real cult follower whose focus is ONLY the cult leader and everything else is purely insignificant for him. There is only an emphasis of ME and MY LEADER and everything else is insignificant. There are various incidents wherein cults have even performed mass suicides as the word of their leader is final and divine. They refuse to think out of their own freewill and they dont have a mind of their own. It is a herculean task to convince these people otherwise.
Re: State your belief
Porus
Your reply is very logical and straightforward. As we all know very much that arguing with logic to Adam is 'bhais agal bhagvat' and more over self respect and human values are not in the dictionary of hardcore DBs.
You have clarified very basic things of our faith in simple and understandable language and I have shared this to many of my DB friends. This is the best way to bring reform. Keep it up.
Your reply is very logical and straightforward. As we all know very much that arguing with logic to Adam is 'bhais agal bhagvat' and more over self respect and human values are not in the dictionary of hardcore DBs.
You have clarified very basic things of our faith in simple and understandable language and I have shared this to many of my DB friends. This is the best way to bring reform. Keep it up.
Re: State your belief
mustafanalwalla wrote:fearAllah wrote: Please do not generalize, Who says we are all happy with Burhan? I am certainly not!!!
And you know what Bawa Adam? There are many more like me inside the community who are grave haters of Sayedna, so please keep your love to yourself, do not include our whole community in your fake statistics.
We are minority within the community who want change and fed up of Burhan, his leaching family and his fanatics.
I dont think Adam means to include you in "ours" and "we"
Mustafa bhai you are sooooooo mean
Re: State your belief
I think it's pretty disrespectful of you to use that tone to the ONLY person who stood up for you..mustafanalwalla wrote:
Hi GM,
I think that this is pretty stupid an analogy to draw, comparing Bohra's to other cults....
I think you should ponder what you write, because you otherwise make very valid comments, which i actually hold in high esteem, but sometimes, with stupid, senseless posts like this, throw everything down the drain
Re: State your belief
This is a perfect example of mixing apples and oranges.
I started this thread, and made that form for this reason only. Because there are so many different beliefs on the forum, and each can only be answered in accordance to what they believe in.
You can't justify to a Christian what an Imam has said, in the same way, you can't answer an anti Fatimid believer with ref to Fatimid texts etc etc.
But almost all of you guys chickened out.
Each person needs a different type of answer.
@ Porus, since we don't share any common belief after Imam Husain AS I simply asked about your Islam, who's your authority,whose tafsir, whose books, if you pray namaaz behind whom?
But you didn't answer. Pls do.
There's no point discussing the Duat and Moulatena Hurratul Maleka with you, because you don't believe in the Fatimi Imams! There's no connection.
In the same way, ANAJMI, is definitely of a Sunni, if not wahabi belief. I would ask him the same questions as PORUS, but the guy is an immature being, who will just divert.
I have no problem with beliefs in any sect of Islam, my repeated question is, if you're not a DB, don't worry about.
Being born into a DB family doesn't make u one, unless you believe in it.
In the same way, unless you don't believe in the Fatimi Imams, you re not their follower. Unless you don't believe in the Prophet, you are not a Muslim.
@HUMSAFAR
This is where it gets weird, he supposedly says, that the Proggys believe in the Quran and books like Daim and fatimi texts, for our interpretation of the Quran and religion.
(That's what we DBs also believe in) up until the Duat.
He says:
We reformists are dawoodi bohras and our core religious beliefs are the same as prescribed in the Quran, Daim ul Islam and other source books by Fatimid, Mustalian and Tayyebi dais
But then, when PORUS tries to refute the Daim, or questions about Moulatena Hurratul Malekas RA stance, not only does HUMSAFAR sit quiet, rather he cheers PORUS! Saying "Porus, that was a great post."
Isn't PORUS refuting HUMSAFARS beliefs? Why doesn't he answer back?!!
What's going on here? Does HUMSAFAR really believe this or not? Why isn't he defending it?
----
@HUMSAFAR
Which core belief allows you to equate the Imam (in absentia) with the Dai?
Which core belief allows you to equate the power and stature of the Imam (in absentia) with the Dai?
I already said it:
For understanding the powers and infallibility of the Dai in Satr, please read Syedna Hatims , Majalis Hatimiyah.
And a book written just for this reason was by Syedi Luqmanjee in refutation of the Hujumiyyahs. Aka, the proggies of that time! (Written before 46th Dai, so you ll should have any problem accepting it).
(Again, this is only for those who believe somehwere uptil some Dai, others ignore it)
@Humsafar, if you want to discuss Proggy vs DB stuff until some Dai, we can do it, privately or in the open, but only with those of your EXACT proggy belief, otherwise, its going to go off track.
@PORUS
Core beliefs of a Muslim are in the Quran not in Daaimul Islam.
I never generalized.
Core beliefs of DB Muslims are in Fatimi Ismaili Tyebi texts, as these texts are our sources, for OUR tafseer of the Quran and Islam.
If Allah says in the Quran that Nuh’s son was not His true follower and describes how He dealt with him, it does not give anyone else a license to treat anyone in a similar manner.
What nonsense!
What's the point of giving examples of Prophets if you're not supposed to learn from it! The Quran also says that these are not mere stories, rather we must learn and act from it.
Doesn't any MUSLIM out here disagree with what PORUS said? Why isn't anyone saying anything?
You insist on Walayat as one of the pillars of Islam. Does Quran state that it is a pillar? It does not. Walayat is a theological extension by Fatimids of the ayat of ‘muwaddata al-qurba’ (42:23)
Yes, according to DB beliefs and texts, including Daim. (But you wouldn't know or follow anything abt DBs anyway)
Also, does the quran clearly state ANY of the 5 (acc to you) pillars as "pillars"?
Again, it all comes to authority and Tafseer, I keep asking, but no reply.
@ANAJMI
You should clarify that this is primary only according to Dawoodi Bohra beliefs. This is not sanctioned in the Quran or by the Prophet of Islam (saw)
Yes, no DUH!
This is supposedly a Proggy DAWOODI BOHRA website, so, its supposed to be discussing DB stuff.
You're of Sunni belief, why are you here? Why do you care.
And yes, it is sanctioned by the Quran and the Prophet of Islam, in accordance to the DB interpretation and tafseer.
@PORUS
No authorized amendment by any Imam exists to inform us that there is no difference between an Imam and Dai and which is incorporated in a revised version of Daaimul Islam.
1. You have NOTHING to do with ANY Fatimi belief, so this doesn't concern you.
2. Yes there is, stated in DB texts, but you wouldn't know or care about DB belief in texts, right?
3. According to you, if there should be, is there "authorized amendment" to state the difference between Nabi and Imam Ali? Or Moulana Ali AS and Imam Hasan and Husain AS?
If there is, why don't we join arms and argue with the Sunnis/Wahabis for not accepting it! ? What do you say
!First discuss core religious beliefs, EVERYTHING else is secondary.
I have said it before, I have no problem right now with those who are following a sect of Sunni Islam, Wahabism, Shiism etc.
(My only question for them is why do they care about affairs DBs)
I am only participating in this forum because I have a problem with the people claiming to be DBs, but aren't, and are insulting its name.
TO ALL proggies!
Do you claim to be a DB? What is your definition of DB?
TO ALL ELSE NON PROGGIES
Who are you following? What tafseer of the Quran do you follow? Who's your teacher or authority on Islamic belief? Who leads your Namaaz? What books do base your beliefs on?
And WHY?
Each person has their own belief, and each view must be answered differently.
P.S I'm not from the "kothar".
I'm a normal DB, who hates nonsense from people insulting MY BELIEF and pretending to be DBs
Re: State your belief
Adam,
Please read carefully. My views are my own. No body has to agree or disagree with me. Nor does anyone need to defend or oppose my views, whether progressive or not.
The only authentic unchallengeable book for Muslims, including Dawoodi Bohras, is the one authored by Allah Himself. That is the Quran. All others, including Fatimid books, are interpretations by fallible human beings and are subject to challenge.
Ali's authority is documented in the hadith of ghadeer-e-khum and the hadith of ahlul kisaa. We have it on the authority of Allah's messenger, Muhammad himself. The authority of Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain is documented by Allah in the ayat of tatheer (33:33) and the hadith of ahlul kisaa taken together, with which I support my contention that 'infallibility' belongs only to Panjatan and no one else.
I have made the above points repeatedly on this forum and, like I said, it is getting very tiresome.
Indeed, one should learn from the Quran but one must be careful to leave alone rights and prerogatives which are for Allah alone, like sajda or sending someone to hell, which metaphorically means harassing people for espousing beliefs different from one's own right here on earth.
Take care.
Please read carefully. My views are my own. No body has to agree or disagree with me. Nor does anyone need to defend or oppose my views, whether progressive or not.
The only authentic unchallengeable book for Muslims, including Dawoodi Bohras, is the one authored by Allah Himself. That is the Quran. All others, including Fatimid books, are interpretations by fallible human beings and are subject to challenge.
Ali's authority is documented in the hadith of ghadeer-e-khum and the hadith of ahlul kisaa. We have it on the authority of Allah's messenger, Muhammad himself. The authority of Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain is documented by Allah in the ayat of tatheer (33:33) and the hadith of ahlul kisaa taken together, with which I support my contention that 'infallibility' belongs only to Panjatan and no one else.
I have made the above points repeatedly on this forum and, like I said, it is getting very tiresome.
Indeed, one should learn from the Quran but one must be careful to leave alone rights and prerogatives which are for Allah alone, like sajda or sending someone to hell, which metaphorically means harassing people for espousing beliefs different from one's own right here on earth.
Take care.
Re: State your belief
Adam, you're not advancing the discussion and instead behaving like a stuck reocrd. Porus is right, you're getting tiresome.
Please just don't name the books (we don't have access to them), quote exact passages to show that Dai is equal to Imam. And if and when you have shown that, you must show how the core beliefs which allows an Imam or Dai to violate Quranic injunctions can still be valid from Islamic perspective. Until you expound on these primary matters all your diatribe is not only secondary but just so much noise.
And please know that it is you and your masters who are pretending to be Dawoodi Borhas.
Please just don't name the books (we don't have access to them), quote exact passages to show that Dai is equal to Imam. And if and when you have shown that, you must show how the core beliefs which allows an Imam or Dai to violate Quranic injunctions can still be valid from Islamic perspective. Until you expound on these primary matters all your diatribe is not only secondary but just so much noise.
And please know that it is you and your masters who are pretending to be Dawoodi Borhas.
Re: State your belief
Adam,
By the way, I concur with Humsafar, your posts are nothing more than noise (green noise). It would be better if you could present references from your texts, your interpretations and your tafseers. If you say those books are not available to us or that we have to attend sabak to get those references, then you are another dumb ass fool taken for a ride like numerous others that we have encountered on this board.
Please provide the proof. Please give the Quranic ayah and its DB interpretation and tafseer which talks about the Imam and Dai being primary and all else secondary. DB interpretation and tafseer has been shown to be fictional many times on this board before. I wouldn't mind doing it one more time.And yes, it is sanctioned by the Quran and the Prophet of Islam, in accordance to the DB interpretation and tafseer.
By the way, I concur with Humsafar, your posts are nothing more than noise (green noise). It would be better if you could present references from your texts, your interpretations and your tafseers. If you say those books are not available to us or that we have to attend sabak to get those references, then you are another dumb ass fool taken for a ride like numerous others that we have encountered on this board.
Re: State your belief
I'm a normal Muslim who hates nonsense from abde DBs insulting Islam and Allah by doing doing sajda to a mortal Dai and making him an equal to God despite repeated warnings in the Quran and then pretending to be Muslims.I'm a normal DB, who hates nonsense from people insulting MY BELIEF and pretending to be DBs