engineer's interview

[guy_sam2005]

I was reading an interview by engineer in a leading daily in which he accepted that his reform movement within his community has not progressed even after 20 or so years,
so wats the progress and figures that you guys boasting about when ur leader himself accepted defeat..........

[ozmujaheed]

Guy why are you surprised have we not all along stated we are still a minority!

Give credit to Engineer bhai that he is admitting reality rather than your Diai lying that he will take you to heaven

[bohri]

Guy Sam

Admit defeat? Did he say we have stopped our efforts - or that we concede that the Kothar actions are correct and justified?

[Humsafar]

guysam, the movement has not "progressed" because of ignorant and coward abdes like you. And if abdes like you don't understand or don't want to understand then it is not the fault of the movement. The fault is yours. It's a testament to your slavery and your closed-mindedness that the movement has not progressed even after so many years.

[accountability]

Well, Dr Engineer is right in a way, that reform movement was not successful in bringing forward obvious or open reformist, but he can cherish another way. Look at this forum , hundreds of people visit this site daily reformist and orthodox. This forum has brought forward people like Porus, hamsafar, Kaka akela, Aqs, oma, aleem, biradar and so many more. Some of them has so much knowledge about our religion that even Jamia ustad would be envious. Even in markaz and masjids around the world are more reform minded than ever.
It is true that iron grip, fear of intimidation, coercion has frightened normal folks, that though not believing in whatever is thrown to them in the name of religion, seldom do we see some daring acts of standing tall. but it took more than hundered years for total control, it might take some more time for people to speak up and stand up. but it will happen.

[aqs]

Well, Dr Engineer is right in a way, that reform movement was not successful in bringing forward obvious or open reformist, but he can cherish another way. Look at this forum , hundreds of people visit this site daily reformist and orthodox. This forum has brought forward people like Porus, hamsafar, Kaka akela, Aqs, oma, aleem, biradar and so many more. Some of them has so much knowledge about our religion that even Jamia ustad would be envious. Even in markaz and masjids around the world are more reform minded than ever.
It is true that iron grip, fear of intimidation, coercion has frightened normal folks, that though not believing in whatever is thrown to them in the name of religion, seldom do we see some daring acts of standing tall. but it took more than hundered years for total control, it might take some more time for people to speak up and stand up. but it will happen.

Br Accty,

Progressives put mainstream Bohras in a box and label them as uneducated cult followers, which in turn puts them in a box, limiting their view. They are so happy in their own existence pointing out flaws of the community of which they desperately want a part of that they have closed all their senses.

I have said this in the past also and i repeat it again that they could have helped community more if they were a part of it. By sitting outside commenting or showing flaws is very very easy, come be a part of the problem and try to give a solution. For every thing their standard reply is that either Syedna(tus) is directly responsible or kothar is responsible, they dont want to change their approach, considering the failure of their movement.

They have still not gauged why people are trickling out, its not because they are lured by kothar or pressurised by their family members because if that was the case they would have never left in the first place. Only reason is they are fed up of the movement and narrow minded approach where every thing is evil in mainstream and all the freedom is with progs.

[SBM]

Progressives put mainstream Bohras in a box and label them as uneducated cult followers,

Br. Aqs
Contrary to that many of the people have praised some of the orthos in a very good light like Dahodwalas, Lokhandwalas,Khorakiwalas and others but if you look at current state, what happened to that great spirit of entrepreneurship,philanthropy.
Our current leadership is taking great pride in cooking and distributing Dabbas making people at home to depend on their chosen food instead of mothers, daughters and sister taking pride in cooking delicious.
Look at bigger picture, our community is going to become dependent on this Dabbas that they may forget how to make those Bohra food which we are famous for just like all those businessmen of the past who were controlling Leather,Glass, Hardware markets. Individual Bohras were one of the most generous philanthropist among Muslim community now all the philanthropy is controlled by Kothari Goons and no one in benefiting except the Chamchas

By sitting outside commenting or showing flaws is very very easy, come be a part of the problem and try to give a solution.

I do hope Br. Adam reads this since he has been asking repeatedly to leave who are trying to work from within to change certain deficiencies

[bohra_manus]

Well, Dr Engineer is right in a way, that reform movement was not successful in bringing forward obvious or open reformist, but he can cherish another way. Look at this forum , hundreds of people visit this site daily reformist and orthodox. This forum has brought forward people like Porus, hamsafar, Kaka akela, Aqs, oma, aleem, biradar and so many more. Some of them has so much knowledge about our religion that even Jamia ustad would be envious. Even in markaz and masjids around the world are more reform minded than ever.
It is true that iron grip, fear of intimidation, coercion has frightened normal folks, that though not believing in whatever is thrown to them in the name of religion, seldom do we see some daring acts of standing tall. but it took more than hundered years for total control, it might take some more time for people to speak up and stand up. but it will happen.

Br Accty,

Progressives put mainstream Bohras in a box and label them as uneducated cult followers, which in turn puts them in a box, limiting their view. They are so happy in their own existence pointing out flaws of the community of which they desperately want a part of that they have closed all their senses.

I have said this in the past also and i repeat it again that they could have helped community more if they were a part of it. By sitting outside commenting or showing flaws is very very easy, come be a part of the problem and try to give a solution. For every thing their standard reply is that either Syedna(tus) is directly responsible or kothar is responsible, they dont want to change their approach, considering the failure of their movement.

They have still not gauged why people are trickling out, its not because they are lured by kothar or pressurised by their family members because if that was the case they would have never left in the first place. Only reason is they are fed up of the movement and narrow minded approach where every thing is evil in mainstream and all the freedom is with progs.

Nice thought Br. Aqs however, the realities are much different.
The moment you try to question any one (either Jamaat memeber or Aamil saheb himself), you are given scolding with it is Aqua maula's farman and don't you obey it? Consistently questioning/objecting or not participating in the activities that you don't believe in makes you stand out as trouble maker and you are "dealt" with accordingly. In my presence, in a private discussion one of the Shehzada saheb cursed one of the community member who would speak up at times. If the Shehzadas have this attitude (obey us or else be cursed forever) then how do you expect change from within?

[porus]

Progressives put mainstream Bohras in a box and label them as uneducated cult followers, ...

No. Not the 'mainstream' Bohras. Those, who I believe, are in the minority in their mode of belief and thinking. The latter, unfortunately, are a vocal minority and have control of the 'governing apparatus' of the community. Fortunately, they have not, and can never, taken control of the hearts and minds of 'mainstream' Bohras.

[accountability]

Aqs, main stream bohras are not cult follower, as Porus pointed out. But cultish mentality of a few but powerful insiders are ruling enitre community. This is very obvious from amil's and jamat members behaviour. I dont think any right minded reformist would regard any one ignorant and follower of cult. This would be negation of reform.
As bohra manus rightly said, that if you start asking right question, you wll be regarded as trouble maker and be dealt with, that is the attitude from top, they dont want to be questioned. they want no accountability.
Look Aqs, in my opinion, main stream bohras are open minded and tolerant, but the problem is, because of fear and intimidation no one speaks up, what you and I should do is to rid of the instilled fear.

[ultofanatic]

Why is there no accountability ? This is a simple question. Ask this and god's (Kothar's) wrath will follow.

Ask any other simple logical question and you will be labelled a "Dawat no dushman". What a nonsensical methodology this.

Take for example the system of "Dabbas". One can't ask questions or the purpose or logic of this scheme.

Ours is not to ask why, ours is to do and just die. God is great and so is Moula.

[Kaka Akela]

Wether you all agree with me or not, I firmly believe that all the intimidation and coersion, arm twisting, iron fist in a velvet glove and all other tactics used by Kothar, Amils, Aayans and anyone with the smallest amount of power or authority has started with or is the result of the little tweek or minor change made in the Misaq by adding in every condition of Misaq a line that says, " Imam anay Imam na Dai". By addition of Dai everyone who works with the raza of Dai has also acquired the power and authority of Imam & Dai. So if you question or ask for an accounting of an Amil or an Aayan then they go for your jagular vein and intimidate you with dire consequences. But always remember this, "The argument from Intimidation is a confession of intellectual impotence." - Ayn Rand

[aqs]

@all,

I agree to what you are saying regarding accountability and response to any question asked, these are not allegations and a stark reality of things gone bad in the community. We all know what are the problems but my contention is if the blame game is not working why not change the tactic, talk to people around you and make them understand so that next time you ask any uncomfortable question their are people to back you. Because the system has been tweaked in such a way that any question asked labels one a "dawat na dushman".

Generally Aamil is not the culprit, its the Jamaat members. These are the guys who take decisions. If they put their foot down to any nonsense of Aamil then no useless fatwa originating at local level will see the light of the day. Its a general trend that the Rich people govern the main body of Jamaat and they are so indifferent to common peoples plight that whatever Aamil dictates they readily agree to be in his good books. I have seen a exception in my home town where Jamaat member though rich are very much sensitive towards people needs and all schemes originating for people do reach them. So next time we blame aamil or kothar for all ills we should also look towards the Jamaat who are running our day to day affairs.

[SBM]

Generally Aamil is not the culprit, its the Jamaat members.

Br. Aqs
That is a shocking reply from you. if look at any Jamaat, the Aamil is the president and in Bohra hierarchy. you can not question an appointee of Syedna. That has been the contention of Progressives( even though I do not consider myself being boxed in any single faction) that local Jamaats members should be given power to question Aamil and ask for transparency.

[Ala maqaam]

Amil is the main culprit,if any honest jamaat member try to oppose him,different sanctions are loaded on him,just like the way AMERICA treats rest of the world,different letters are sent to kothar and finally that jamaat member is replaced by some chamcha of Amil who will say YES to every right or wrong decision taken by Amil.

[anajmi]

Ala Maqaam,

A fantastic comparison. The first sensible post from you!

[ultofanatic]

According to Aqs, Aamil is not the culprit - the jamaat members are. The jamaat members are jumping around like there is no tomorrow on the instructions of the Aamil who in turn is jumping around on the authority vested in him by the higher ups. It's a vicious circle. What is the common man to do. Where is the end of this cycle ? At the end of the day who is accountable and answerable to the unending problems of the community.

Let us not delude ourselves. The circle starts at the top. The Aamil is instructed to give a free hand to the jamaat members. The Aamil gets to blame the jamaat members for the mess. The jamaat members, who are blind to the fact that they are mere tools, in turn say their hands are tied. The real culprit meanwhile goes scot free.

Money makes people crazy. First Dawat wanted money to survive. Now that the Dawat has survived and thriving, the protectors of Dawat have become so much more powerful and their hunger for financial strengthen is so massive and all consuming that they are holding a whole community to ransom. The more they hoard the more their need to hoard.

The weak opposition of the progressives has meanwhile conveniently become the flogging spot - "Dawat na dushmanano no humlo". Keep flogging the dead horse to cover up the massive financial conglomerate being built up.

Quite convenient is it?

[aqs]

Br. Oma/Ultrafonatic

I have seen Aamils listening to Jamaat members if they put it resolutely other wise we have more then enough who will dance to any tune played in the garb of "aa moula no farman che".

Aamils do like to have their way but if the Jamaat members are strong and have good hold in the city which generally they have due to their being rich and famous then Aamil have a hard time circumvention all decisions. But like i said before it all depends on how much Jamaat member are sensitive towards common peoples needs. My home town can be lucky to have good hearted people at center of Jamaat but this only shows that it can be worked out if people are sincere enough.

[Ala maqaam]

Ala Maqaam,

A fantastic comparison. The first sensible post from you!

thanx,but my all post are sensible if u have that sensible brain to analyz it,pray Allah may bestow you that ability as soon as possible.

[anajmi]

I guess I spoke too soon. I take it back.

[Ala maqaam]

I guess I spoke too soon. I take it back.

No you just proved hadith of my Imam Ali(s)

he says "true momeen is one to whome even his enemy will praise"

no wonder there are number of incident were muaviyah and yazid have praised Imam Ali(s) but yet they kept giving him aziyat.

[anajmi]

A "momeen" who considers another believer an enemy is not a momeen but a hypocrite. Besides, I already took back what I had said previously about you. Obviously, I spoke too soon.

One other thing, whether one says good things to or about Hazrat Ali has nothing to do with whether one is a muslim or not. His faith in Allah, His Quran and His prophet (saw) is what ultimately defines a muslim/momeen.

[Muslim First]

Br anajmi
AS
You are reciting "Bhagwat" to a "Bhense".

Hz Ali described this brother and others like him in this Hadith reported in
In the Nahjul Balagha, one of the most revered books of the Shia, Ali (رضّى الله عنه) said in Sermon 126:

“With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority of Muslims because Allah’s hand of protection is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is a prey to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is a prey to the wolf. Beware! Whoever calls to this course [of sectarianism], kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine.”
(Source: Al-Islam.org, http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/126.htm )

These are people who love and adore Ahl e bait to the extend that they have taken them as their demi god. Instead of Allah judging them as Momeen they give themselves title of Momeen.

[anajmi]

You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is a prey to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is a prey to the wolf.

Hazrat Ali identified the kothari wolf 14 centuries ago!!

[ghulam muhammed]

I was reading an interview by engineer in a leading daily in which he accepted that his reform movement within his community has not progressed even after 20 or so years,

so wats the progress and figures that you guys boasting about when ur leader himself accepted defeat..........I was reading an interview by engineer in a leading daily in which he accepted that his reform movement within his community has not progressed even after 20 or so years,
so wats the progress and figures that you guys boasting about when ur leader himself accepted defeat..........

I was going thru some statistics in which it was evident that the dawoodi bohra community has shrinked from a million to around 6 lacs (as per e-jamat records). Now suppose that this claim is false (as some abdes claim) then too it is surprising that the community consists of the supposedly figure of a million only inspite of it being established some 900 years ago.

Moreover in the past around 100 years during the reign of the 51st and 52nd dai, there has been ZERO conversion and both the dais have failed miserably in their prime duty i.e. "To give Dawat".

So whats the progress and figures that you abdes are boasting about when ur leader has failed to invite people to bohraism ???