State your belief
Re: State your belief
I am interested in Adam's answers as well and I promise not to respond to his posts on this thread until the end.
Re: State your belief
Bawa Adam,
How about buying Sheikh titles? Core beliefs?
How about buying masjid space? Core beliefs?
How about paying money for ziya"afat"? Core beliefs?
How about mandatory giving najwa salam to "amil saheba" and "sher zadas" to perform important occasions like Ashura bayan and Lailatul kadar? Then shed crocodile tears on the great Imam Hussein? Core beliefs?
How about worshipping Taher and Burhannudin photos? Core beliefs? Where are the photos of Prophet, Imams and other Dais? Show me photo of our great Moulana Kutbuddin Shaheed , do you have it? During Sharjahan time there were world class painters who could paint a photo face to face within minutes but why did Moulana Kutbuddin Shaheed didnt made one for himself? Even in Arabia it was the same case, where are the photos of Imams?
These last two dai have hijacked the community and have changed the bohora culture and beliefs by twisting the words of Quran and inventing Shirk and Kufars like Sajda and photo worshipping and making black money in the name of religion. Prophet Yusuf and Adam were given sajdas by Prophet Yakub and Angels respectively by a special order from Allah only for one-off occasion, no one else ever prostrated Yusuf Nabi and Adam Nabi in their lifetime except for that occasion, infact Yusuf Nabi used to hate people bowing at him and strictly condemned it. Burhan is just a Dai and we are not angels or prophets.
How about buying Sheikh titles? Core beliefs?
How about buying masjid space? Core beliefs?
How about paying money for ziya"afat"? Core beliefs?
How about mandatory giving najwa salam to "amil saheba" and "sher zadas" to perform important occasions like Ashura bayan and Lailatul kadar? Then shed crocodile tears on the great Imam Hussein? Core beliefs?
How about worshipping Taher and Burhannudin photos? Core beliefs? Where are the photos of Prophet, Imams and other Dais? Show me photo of our great Moulana Kutbuddin Shaheed , do you have it? During Sharjahan time there were world class painters who could paint a photo face to face within minutes but why did Moulana Kutbuddin Shaheed didnt made one for himself? Even in Arabia it was the same case, where are the photos of Imams?
These last two dai have hijacked the community and have changed the bohora culture and beliefs by twisting the words of Quran and inventing Shirk and Kufars like Sajda and photo worshipping and making black money in the name of religion. Prophet Yusuf and Adam were given sajdas by Prophet Yakub and Angels respectively by a special order from Allah only for one-off occasion, no one else ever prostrated Yusuf Nabi and Adam Nabi in their lifetime except for that occasion, infact Yusuf Nabi used to hate people bowing at him and strictly condemned it. Burhan is just a Dai and we are not angels or prophets.
Re: State your belief
Adam,
I hope, you'll not get distracted by this one pest and keep on continuing debating on this thread.. I'll copy and paste on to the other thread, so others can have the choice/option to ignore those an necessary comments
I hope, you'll not get distracted by this one pest and keep on continuing debating on this thread.. I'll copy and paste on to the other thread, so others can have the choice/option to ignore those an necessary comments
Re: State your belief
Something to think about:
Scientology: The First Lesson
To become a Scientologist, you must have one primary belief. Without it, you can never become a Scientologist. With it, you are golden.
You must believe that L. Ron Hubbard is All-Knowing, All-Seeing, Perfect and Always Right.
And they do. Completely.
You see, this is the very first lesson you learn in Scientology. At the start of each and every course you take, you must first understand and agree with Hubbard's Policy Letter "Keeping Scientology Working". In this policy letter, Hubbard modestly states that he has all the answers, that he is the only one who has these answers, that it is impossible for anyone to improve on his answers and that anyone who disagrees with all that is a very, very bad person, who must be stopped. I'm paraphrasing.
Once you've completely understood and agreed with that policy letter, you are allowed to continue on to the course material. Every course starts with this policy letter.
And the proof that Hubbard, or the Church of Scientology, or anyone gives that Hubbard was, is and will always be right is:
(absolutely nothing)
Yes, that's right, nobody has ever presented any evidence that Hubbard has these powers of always being right and knowing everything.
It is belief, in the purest sense of that word. Absolute, complete, perfect belief that "Hubbard is always right!"
This is why it is impossible to argue with a Scientologist.
More at http://askthescientologist.blogspot.com ... ssion.html
Scientology: The First Lesson
To become a Scientologist, you must have one primary belief. Without it, you can never become a Scientologist. With it, you are golden.
You must believe that L. Ron Hubbard is All-Knowing, All-Seeing, Perfect and Always Right.
And they do. Completely.
You see, this is the very first lesson you learn in Scientology. At the start of each and every course you take, you must first understand and agree with Hubbard's Policy Letter "Keeping Scientology Working". In this policy letter, Hubbard modestly states that he has all the answers, that he is the only one who has these answers, that it is impossible for anyone to improve on his answers and that anyone who disagrees with all that is a very, very bad person, who must be stopped. I'm paraphrasing.
Once you've completely understood and agreed with that policy letter, you are allowed to continue on to the course material. Every course starts with this policy letter.
And the proof that Hubbard, or the Church of Scientology, or anyone gives that Hubbard was, is and will always be right is:
(absolutely nothing)
Yes, that's right, nobody has ever presented any evidence that Hubbard has these powers of always being right and knowing everything.
It is belief, in the purest sense of that word. Absolute, complete, perfect belief that "Hubbard is always right!"
This is why it is impossible to argue with a Scientologist.
More at http://askthescientologist.blogspot.com ... ssion.html
Re: State your belief
Br. Porus
Same is true about Mormon, "Prophet's Prey" by Sam Bower is an interesting book to read. Except for Polygamous marriages, most could be substituted for DB and you will get the picture. Strict obedience, subjugation and nothing without the permission of Warren or Roulan Jeff
Same is true about Mormon, "Prophet's Prey" by Sam Bower is an interesting book to read. Except for Polygamous marriages, most could be substituted for DB and you will get the picture. Strict obedience, subjugation and nothing without the permission of Warren or Roulan Jeff
Re: One on One Debate.. Adam vs Humsafar
According to me, this discussion wont get too far, because authenticity issues will arise at every step. If a common ground was established, it would be of more use, as i'd be able to relate the answer much more easily.
I find it very stupid to be "assuming" whom i'm talking to.
Just a reminder, I did start this thread, because, I needed the information of the other person. That's how I roll, why don't you respect that?
No. The answer would be the same, the way of proving it would be different.
Again, I find it very silly to assume what your belief is, but being a good sport, My answers in short :
If, like you said, you are of only Sunni, Wahabi belief, that is, only until the Prophet, no one else after that has stated by you :
Sajda to Human : Quran allows it to two Nabis Adam AS and Yusuf AS, who were leaders of their community at the time. Syedna is the leader of his community. Thus a justified practice.
Wajebaat : Surah Tawbah Ayah 103 says : خذ من اموالهم صدقة
It is an order to Rasulullah SAW to TAKE Zakaat (Sadaqah) from his people. (Not for the people to give it directly). Rasulullah SAW collected the Zakaat from the people of his time, and distributed it. Since the Quran is universal and for all ages, there should be an Authority towards whom this order should be addressed, ie to TAKE. Thus, Syedna TUS is the leader of his community, his followers will give their "Sadaqah" to him, ie, he will TAKE.
PICTURES : Quran doesn't state that you can't put up pictures.
BUT, if you are a Sunni, Wahabi belief, you have no connection with Shia Fatimi DB belief, so you're not going to be convinced any how. As questions of DB texts will arise at every point.
If you claim to be of Dawoodi Bohra Belief as stated by you :
SAJDA : Quran states it. Fatimi DB texts such as Kitab al Himmah and Fatimi literature also explain its practice. (in accordance to the Quran)
WAJEBAAT : Every Imam & Dai collected from their followers, Syedna is doing the same
PICTURES : No DB text has a problem with it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOW, hear me out.
I've been a good sport throughout, by agreeing to answer your questions, how you like it (irrespective whether you are convinced by it or not). I started this thread "State your belief", for my knowledge, to know the beliefs of the people. So I am NOT talking off topic.
Now, if you'd be a good enough sport to answer these very SIMPLE questions, clearly and not dodging them :
WHAT IS YOUR BELIEF : A Muslim shouldn't lie, so be truthful. And you don't need to say it to "Humour me". You should be proud of your belief, not dodging it everytime someone asks you.
WHO IS YOUR PHYSICAL LEADER TODAY : You said
BUT, you haven't yet disclosed who this Authority is. Either you were lying that you have one. Or lying that you needed one. Or too embarrassed to disclose who he/she is.
Please clarify this.
Another very simple question, which has a deeper thought.
AS A MUSLIM, DO YOU PRAY NAMAAZ? WHO LEADS YOUR NAMAAZ? AND WHY HIM/HER?
3 extremely simple questions. Please be kind enough. Only then we can proceed.
I find it very stupid to be "assuming" whom i'm talking to.
Just a reminder, I did start this thread, because, I needed the information of the other person. That's how I roll, why don't you respect that?
If not, then it only means that you're going to manipulate your answers, and are not going to be truthful.
No. The answer would be the same, the way of proving it would be different.
Again, I find it very silly to assume what your belief is, but being a good sport, My answers in short :
If, like you said, you are of only Sunni, Wahabi belief, that is, only until the Prophet, no one else after that has stated by you :
2) My belief is in Islam, my authority is the Quran and my leader is the Prophet.
Sajda to Human : Quran allows it to two Nabis Adam AS and Yusuf AS, who were leaders of their community at the time. Syedna is the leader of his community. Thus a justified practice.
Wajebaat : Surah Tawbah Ayah 103 says : خذ من اموالهم صدقة
It is an order to Rasulullah SAW to TAKE Zakaat (Sadaqah) from his people. (Not for the people to give it directly). Rasulullah SAW collected the Zakaat from the people of his time, and distributed it. Since the Quran is universal and for all ages, there should be an Authority towards whom this order should be addressed, ie to TAKE. Thus, Syedna TUS is the leader of his community, his followers will give their "Sadaqah" to him, ie, he will TAKE.
PICTURES : Quran doesn't state that you can't put up pictures.
BUT, if you are a Sunni, Wahabi belief, you have no connection with Shia Fatimi DB belief, so you're not going to be convinced any how. As questions of DB texts will arise at every point.
If you claim to be of Dawoodi Bohra Belief as stated by you :
My belief, authority and leader are the same as yours - the current Dawoodi Bohra faith.
SAJDA : Quran states it. Fatimi DB texts such as Kitab al Himmah and Fatimi literature also explain its practice. (in accordance to the Quran)
WAJEBAAT : Every Imam & Dai collected from their followers, Syedna is doing the same
PICTURES : No DB text has a problem with it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOW, hear me out.
I've been a good sport throughout, by agreeing to answer your questions, how you like it (irrespective whether you are convinced by it or not). I started this thread "State your belief", for my knowledge, to know the beliefs of the people. So I am NOT talking off topic.
Now, if you'd be a good enough sport to answer these very SIMPLE questions, clearly and not dodging them :
WHAT IS YOUR BELIEF : A Muslim shouldn't lie, so be truthful. And you don't need to say it to "Humour me". You should be proud of your belief, not dodging it everytime someone asks you.
WHO IS YOUR PHYSICAL LEADER TODAY : You said
further clarifying their existanceYes "physical authority" is necessary, nobody is disputing that.
My leaders - whoever they may be
BUT, you haven't yet disclosed who this Authority is. Either you were lying that you have one. Or lying that you needed one. Or too embarrassed to disclose who he/she is.
Please clarify this.
Another very simple question, which has a deeper thought.
AS A MUSLIM, DO YOU PRAY NAMAAZ? WHO LEADS YOUR NAMAAZ? AND WHY HIM/HER?
3 extremely simple questions. Please be kind enough. Only then we can proceed.
Re: State your belief
Woah! Losing track of my posts thanks to admin shifting it around.
This thread has gone off topic
PORUS : Sorry, didn't completely understand what you were getting at. (I had PMd you also a while back)
@fearAllah :
I wouldn't consider the beginning parts of your reply "Core Beliefs". They are practices of a religious community (Dawoodi Bohras) who share those core beliefs, not those who don't. Those who don't share it, don't need to worry about it .
About the pictures, if we had them, we would've kept them as well (I believe). We do have of the past 5 Dais.
Sajda : Even if it was a one time affair. It was done. And it was right. So your cries about giving Sajda to a human is refuted. Whether it should be continued in all ages, is where the difference in BELIEF lies.
We believe the Quran is universal, and for all ages, and not limited to the times of the Prophets it mentions.
. So we have a much more dynamic and continous view of Islam. Unlike some "others"
BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY :
Mr / Mrs FEAR ALLAH
So, what are your beliefs.
One thing you mentioned interested me (since you hate the Dawoodi Bohra faith) and have expressed time and again sentiments for Sunni Wahabi belief and hatred for the Fatimi faith : You referred to the 32nd Dawoodi Bohra Dai Syedna Qutbuddin Shaheed RA as :
Which reflects you either have belief in him? Do you consider him a religious leader? But you aren't a DB? I'm confused!
Please clarify that.
This thread has gone off topic
PORUS : Sorry, didn't completely understand what you were getting at. (I had PMd you also a while back)
@fearAllah :
I wouldn't consider the beginning parts of your reply "Core Beliefs". They are practices of a religious community (Dawoodi Bohras) who share those core beliefs, not those who don't. Those who don't share it, don't need to worry about it .
About the pictures, if we had them, we would've kept them as well (I believe). We do have of the past 5 Dais.
Sajda : Even if it was a one time affair. It was done. And it was right. So your cries about giving Sajda to a human is refuted. Whether it should be continued in all ages, is where the difference in BELIEF lies.
We believe the Quran is universal, and for all ages, and not limited to the times of the Prophets it mentions.
. So we have a much more dynamic and continous view of Islam. Unlike some "others"
BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY :
Mr / Mrs FEAR ALLAH
So, what are your beliefs.
One thing you mentioned interested me (since you hate the Dawoodi Bohra faith) and have expressed time and again sentiments for Sunni Wahabi belief and hatred for the Fatimi faith : You referred to the 32nd Dawoodi Bohra Dai Syedna Qutbuddin Shaheed RA as :
Moulana Kutbuddin Shaheed
Which reflects you either have belief in him? Do you consider him a religious leader? But you aren't a DB? I'm confused!
Please clarify that.
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ghulam muhammed
- Posts: 11653
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm
Re: State your belief
A quote from Adam :-
Another quote :-Adam wrote:WAJEBAAT : Every Imam & Dai collected from their followers, Syedna is doing the same
It will be interesting to see how Adam explains the theory of DISTRIBUTION.Adam wrote:Rasulullah SAW collected the Zakaat from the people of his time, and distributed it.
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Al Zulfiqar
- Posts: 4618
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am
Re: State your belief
the essence of adam's argument, if i can briefly summarize, is that he can only engage in a meaningful discussion with you if you are an equally super intelligent abde like him who believes that:
1. dai = imam = prophet = allah, which makes the dai the supreme religious and spiritual authority in any all matters, over and above any past islamic figures.
2. that you must have blind faith in whatever the dai sees fit to do and say
3. that the dai is the real and 'haqiqi' kaaba
4. that the hajr al aswad is therefore below his feet and kisses his feet, so if you kiss the dai's feet you are kissing the celestial black stone
5. that the last dai, syedna taher saifuddin was the greatest dai who ever lived
6. that the present syedna has the right to receive and accept your sajdas, a la nabi adam and nabi yusuf and the trivial matter of bohras not being angels who were commanded by allah or prophets like prophet yunus, is a mere inconvenience
7. since dai is finally equal to allah, he can command anyone to do sajda to him and sing paens of praise in his honor
8. since dai is equal to allah, he can and will live ta qayamat as sung in madehs like ghanu jeevo. in fact the dai is immortal
9. the moment you refuse to acknowledge any of the above, you cease to be a bohra and thus unworthy of any sensible debate
10. any questioning of the above bohra 'core practices', even the slightest pangs of doubt, makes you a daawat no dushman, a wahabi, a shia hater, a sympathiser of the anti-shia barking hordes and a muddai who is destined for hell
11. you must shower your all on the dai, you may not ask what he does with it, you may not enquire even very politely how and why he and his vast extended family can enjoy untold riches and lifestyles befitting maharajas, when even the prophet and ali led simple, austere lives and gave scrupulous accounts to their followers. but this only proves that syedna is over and above ali and the prophet of islam
12. that to prove your unflailing allegiance to the syedna and the core beliefs enumerated above, you have to pledge to forever give up on blue, black and red inks or any other colored inks for that matter and only carry green pens and communicate in green ink only
13. you must also color your beards green, wear green STD, drive green cars, use green bed linen, live in green houses, and if you have to practise birth control, then you guessed it, use green co*****s. this will palpably demonstrate your love and aqeeda for dai
i hope that i didnt miss out on any salient points. if i have, my apologies, and i request that great mind, adam, to please add them here so we can complete this executive summary for the clarification of all and sundry.
1. dai = imam = prophet = allah, which makes the dai the supreme religious and spiritual authority in any all matters, over and above any past islamic figures.
2. that you must have blind faith in whatever the dai sees fit to do and say
3. that the dai is the real and 'haqiqi' kaaba
4. that the hajr al aswad is therefore below his feet and kisses his feet, so if you kiss the dai's feet you are kissing the celestial black stone
5. that the last dai, syedna taher saifuddin was the greatest dai who ever lived
6. that the present syedna has the right to receive and accept your sajdas, a la nabi adam and nabi yusuf and the trivial matter of bohras not being angels who were commanded by allah or prophets like prophet yunus, is a mere inconvenience
7. since dai is finally equal to allah, he can command anyone to do sajda to him and sing paens of praise in his honor
8. since dai is equal to allah, he can and will live ta qayamat as sung in madehs like ghanu jeevo. in fact the dai is immortal
9. the moment you refuse to acknowledge any of the above, you cease to be a bohra and thus unworthy of any sensible debate
10. any questioning of the above bohra 'core practices', even the slightest pangs of doubt, makes you a daawat no dushman, a wahabi, a shia hater, a sympathiser of the anti-shia barking hordes and a muddai who is destined for hell
11. you must shower your all on the dai, you may not ask what he does with it, you may not enquire even very politely how and why he and his vast extended family can enjoy untold riches and lifestyles befitting maharajas, when even the prophet and ali led simple, austere lives and gave scrupulous accounts to their followers. but this only proves that syedna is over and above ali and the prophet of islam
12. that to prove your unflailing allegiance to the syedna and the core beliefs enumerated above, you have to pledge to forever give up on blue, black and red inks or any other colored inks for that matter and only carry green pens and communicate in green ink only
13. you must also color your beards green, wear green STD, drive green cars, use green bed linen, live in green houses, and if you have to practise birth control, then you guessed it, use green co*****s. this will palpably demonstrate your love and aqeeda for dai
i hope that i didnt miss out on any salient points. if i have, my apologies, and i request that great mind, adam, to please add them here so we can complete this executive summary for the clarification of all and sundry.
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ghulam muhammed
- Posts: 11653
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm
Re: State your belief
Also have a Green e-jamat card/green safai chithi. After all of the above, have green carpets in badri/saifee mahal and trample upon the holy colour of Islam, the colour of the dome of Prophet (s.a.w.).Al Zulfiqar wrote:you must also color your beards green, wear green STD, drive green cars, use green bed linen, live in green houses, and if you have to practise birth control, then you guessed it, use green co*****s. this will palpably demonstrate your love and aqeeda for dai
Re: State your belief
by Ala maqaam on Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:16 am
ghulam muhammed wrote:
So nice to know that is what you learned from your regressive Aamils. well said, Kothari Defenders and your parents should be proud of your training . This is what they teach you at Majaalis
ghulam muhammed wrote:
AMAl Zulfiqar wrote:you must also color your beards green, wear green STD, drive green cars, use green bed linen, live in green houses, and if you have to practise birth control, then you guessed it, use green co*****s. this will palpably demonstrate your love and aqeeda for dai
Also have a Green e-jamat card/green safai chithi. After all of the above, have green carpets in badri/saifee mahal and trample upon the holy colour of Islam, the colour of the dome of Prophet (s.a.w.).
fucked head,there is nothing like holy colour,how low will u go to prove u are right and all other are wrong?
moron for once in a life use your head.
So nice to know that is what you learned from your regressive Aamils. well said, Kothari Defenders and your parents should be proud of your training . This is what they teach you at Majaalis
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Ala maqaam
- Posts: 318
- Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:23 am
Re: State your belief
omabharti wrote:by Ala maqaam on Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:16 am
ghulam muhammed wrote:
AMAl Zulfiqar wrote:you must also color your beards green, wear green STD, drive green cars, use green bed linen, live in green houses, and if you have to practise birth control, then you guessed it, use green co*****s. this will palpably demonstrate your love and aqeeda for dai
Also have a Green e-jamat card/green safai chithi. After all of the above, have green carpets in badri/saifee mahal and trample upon the holy colour of Islam, the colour of the dome of Prophet (s.a.w.).
fucked head,there is nothing like holy colour,how low will u go to prove u are right and all other are wrong?
moron for once in a life use your head.
So nice to know that is what you learned from your regressive Aamils. well said, Kothari Defenders and your parents should be proud of your training . This is what they teach you at Majaalis
dont worry about me....worry about ur own arse hypocrite munafiq.....
Re: State your belief
Waiting for a reply for my reply to FEAR ALLAH.
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Al Zulfiqar
- Posts: 4618
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am
Re: State your belief
taking the easy way out is it adam? why havent you addressed my post?Adam wrote:Waiting for a reply for my reply to FEAR ALLAH.
if all that i have stated is true based on your own logic and arguments, then can you please acknowledge so we can put this debate to bed?
Re: State your belief
Bawa Adam,Adam wrote:Waiting for a reply for my reply to FEAR ALLAH.
Please give me some time? I am in temple right now, watching relay on screen (rolling Murti) of God Burhanuddin facing the Qibla, honest.
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Ala maqaam
- Posts: 318
- Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:23 am
Re: State your belief
fearAllah wrote:Bawa Adam,Adam wrote:Waiting for a reply for my reply to FEAR ALLAH.
Please give me some time? I am in temple right now, watching relay on screen (rolling Murti) of God Burhanuddin facing the Qibla, honest.
why did u go there?
1)u dont give misaaq
2)u dont belive syedna as ur dai
then what are u doing there?
Re: State your belief
Ala maqaam wrote:fearAllah wrote: Bawa Adam,
Please give me some time? I am in temple right now, watching relay on screen (rolling Murti) of God Burhanuddin facing the Qibla, honest.
why did u go there?
1)u dont give misaaq
2)u dont belive syedna as ur dai
then what are u doing there?
Why did Moulana Ali go to first 3 khalifas waaz and their mishaq (oath of alligience) majlis? Just for the sake of protecting the Islam he sacrifised his feelings, I am following my beloved Moula Ali, you have to have a deep love for him to understand it.
Re: State your belief
No wasn't taking the easy way out. Honestly, I didn't read the whole post, but it seemed senseless, and not worth asnwering.Al Zulfiqar wrote:taking the easy way out is it adam? why havent you addressed my post?Adam wrote:Waiting for a reply for my reply to FEAR ALLAH.
if all that i have stated is true based on your own logic and arguments, then can you please acknowledge so we can put this debate to bed?
What's your belief Al Zulfiqar? Sunni, Wahabi, Shia, Agha Khani?
[/color]
Re: State your belief
Bawa Adam,
Sorry this might hurt you but you are a very discombobulated, narrow-minded and one track person.
I suggest you should really raise these questions to our Dai. It will be great to hear his roohani biryani answer.
What makes you conclude/generalize that the present (just a 100 year old fabricated/distorted faith) is the main original DB faith (1000 year old)?
Unlike you who take everything which come from the 51st and 52nd Bhagwans as a revelation, I follow the DB faith of my ancestors, I follow the original DB faith of every Dai who had qualities of the Prophet, Moulana Ali and Ahlal-bait. Good example is Qutbuddin Shaheed and many more Dais before and after him too.
I follow the DB faith which has been there for 90% of the time (1000years – 100years = 900years). I follow the true original DB faith where rich were equal to poor, Quran/Allah was the primary fear/guidance and the Dais lived and resembled lifestyle of Prophet and Ahlal-bait. You will never see the present Dai amongst poor people, he doesn’t have the guts to perform public speeches to invite people into the religion nor participate in a debate, instead cowardly brainwashing his own people all the time (just a million strong?), "su neerali shaan che?" ganta neerali shaan che, if he is man enough and Allah's Dai then ask him to preach his teachings to all Muslims or maybe Shias to start of with, poeple will laugh at his hindu philosophies. He preaches something else and practices opposite, i have heard him making fun/speaking ill of Aga khan's father so many times in his bayan, is this not GEEBAT? Also the holy prophet said "Do not speak ill of the deceased". He emphasis on teachings of Moulana Ali, Hussein and Hassan and then lives life similar to Muawiya.
The last two Dais have hijacked the DB faith (and community) destroying the original DB faith by violating/twisting the words of Quran.
Bawa Adam, in short, the present Dai and his father are the one who you should really pose your questions, they are the one who are damaging 1000 year old traditions just for the sake of making money and dominate people. I am sure if Baraat was allowed in Islam then during the time of Moulana Ali or even early Dais like Syedna Hatim these two (Burhannudin and Taher) would be the first persons to be ex-communicated for not following the DB faith.
Just because Gaddafi or Sadam Hussein are in power does not mean that we are going to rescind our citizenship. One day the royal family will be overthrown, Allah is the greatest!
Sorry this might hurt you but you are a very discombobulated, narrow-minded and one track person.
I suggest you should really raise these questions to our Dai. It will be great to hear his roohani biryani answer.
What makes you conclude/generalize that the present (just a 100 year old fabricated/distorted faith) is the main original DB faith (1000 year old)?
Unlike you who take everything which come from the 51st and 52nd Bhagwans as a revelation, I follow the DB faith of my ancestors, I follow the original DB faith of every Dai who had qualities of the Prophet, Moulana Ali and Ahlal-bait. Good example is Qutbuddin Shaheed and many more Dais before and after him too.
I follow the DB faith which has been there for 90% of the time (1000years – 100years = 900years). I follow the true original DB faith where rich were equal to poor, Quran/Allah was the primary fear/guidance and the Dais lived and resembled lifestyle of Prophet and Ahlal-bait. You will never see the present Dai amongst poor people, he doesn’t have the guts to perform public speeches to invite people into the religion nor participate in a debate, instead cowardly brainwashing his own people all the time (just a million strong?), "su neerali shaan che?" ganta neerali shaan che, if he is man enough and Allah's Dai then ask him to preach his teachings to all Muslims or maybe Shias to start of with, poeple will laugh at his hindu philosophies. He preaches something else and practices opposite, i have heard him making fun/speaking ill of Aga khan's father so many times in his bayan, is this not GEEBAT? Also the holy prophet said "Do not speak ill of the deceased". He emphasis on teachings of Moulana Ali, Hussein and Hassan and then lives life similar to Muawiya.
The last two Dais have hijacked the DB faith (and community) destroying the original DB faith by violating/twisting the words of Quran.
Bawa Adam, in short, the present Dai and his father are the one who you should really pose your questions, they are the one who are damaging 1000 year old traditions just for the sake of making money and dominate people. I am sure if Baraat was allowed in Islam then during the time of Moulana Ali or even early Dais like Syedna Hatim these two (Burhannudin and Taher) would be the first persons to be ex-communicated for not following the DB faith.
Just because Gaddafi or Sadam Hussein are in power does not mean that we are going to rescind our citizenship. One day the royal family will be overthrown, Allah is the greatest!
Re: One on One Debate.. Adam vs Humsafar
Adam,
Whether I'm a sunni or abde dawoodi bohra like you, your answers are essentially the same, except for lame references to DB text.
Two, dais (of satr era) never boasted of royal families and never lived off their followers hard-earned money.
Three, the dais of yore did not take as much as this Dai is taking and not in the manner (coercion, threats, duress) as this dai is taking.
Four, even if everything is justified, the question still remains, how is this wealth spent?
Whether I'm a sunni or abde dawoodi bohra like you, your answers are essentially the same, except for lame references to DB text.
It is dishonest of you to turn isolated and special-case incidents into an article of faith and make it into a common practice. The "scholar" of your repute should know that the moral weight of the Quran is against human worship, and in the Quran sajada is equated with ibadah, worship. The Quran has explicitly forbidden it. Prophet Mohammed never allowed it and Maula Ali was militantly against it. They too were leaders of their community, if they did not allow it, sayedna kis khet ki muli hai? By declaring the dai as "our leader" you cannot put him on a pedestal higher than Mohammed and Ali. The dai is a lowly functionary in the dawat hierarchy and if he has any doctrinal integrity and moral shame he should NOT allow people doing sajada to him. And if you have any shame you should stop justifying it.Adam wrote:Sajda to Human : Quran allows it to two Nabis Adam AS and Yusuf AS, who were leaders of their community at the time. Syedna is the leader of his community. Thus a justified practice.
People like porus who know a lot more than me on these matters have successfully refuted this claim. Please refer to the threads where this topic is discussed exentsively. I'll only add that no DB text can supersede the Quran. What the Quran has outlawed, DB text cannot permit. The "scholar" of your repute should know this much.Adam wrote:SAJDA : Quran states it. Fatimi DB texts such as Kitab al Himmah and Fatimi literature also explain its practice. (in accordance to the Quran)
Again, an isolated verse and out of context. The verse refers to taking of alms from wrongdoers who have repented, and such "taking" is intended to purify them. It is not a licence to rob Muslims. Even we if turn this into a carte blanche for the Dai to rob Borhas blind, the question is what is to be done with this wealth so "taken"? Should the dai spend it on himself and his "royal family" or should it be spend on the poor, orphans and widows.Adam wrote:Wajebaat : Surah Tawbah Ayah 103 says : خذ من اموالهم صدقة
It is an order to Rasulullah SAW to TAKE Zakaat (Sadaqah) from his people. (Not for the people to give it directly). Rasulullah SAW collected the Zakaat from the people of his time, and distributed it. Since the Quran is universal and for all ages, there should be an Authority towards whom this order should be addressed, ie to TAKE. Thus, Syedna TUS is the leader of his community, his followers will give their "Sadaqah" to him, ie, he will TAKE.
One, let's not equate dais with Imams. Imams (Fatimid) were emperors and behaved as such in accordance with the demands of the times and their calling.Adam wrote:WAJEBAAT : Every Imam & Dai collected from their followers, Syedna is doing the same
Two, dais (of satr era) never boasted of royal families and never lived off their followers hard-earned money.
Three, the dais of yore did not take as much as this Dai is taking and not in the manner (coercion, threats, duress) as this dai is taking.
Four, even if everything is justified, the question still remains, how is this wealth spent?
Adam wrote:PICTURES : Quran doesn't state that you can't put up pictures.
Seriously, is this the your response? The "scholar" who glowing translated an obscure poet scaling new heights in stone-worshipping? That self-confessed ignoramus mustafanulwala made a similar argument in some other thread and anajmi gave him a fitting reply with references to "mr. bating". You "scholar" sir deserve a similar reply.Adam wrote:PICTURES : No DB text has a problem with it.
Re: State your belief
Quran does not state HOW TO PRAY SALAH EITHER, that does not mean that people can just call Allah's name and not follow all the ArkansAdam wrote:PICTURES : Quran doesn't state that you can't put up pictures
of Salah being it Shia/Sunni/DB/Wahabi
Quran does not state that you have to do MATAAM after every Fard Namaz either.
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Al Zulfiqar
- Posts: 4618
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am
Re: State your belief
adam, your response was so predictable and you are such a wily snake. i am not surprised at all..!Adam wrote:
, and No wasn't taking the easy way out. Honestly, I didn't read the whole post, but it seemed senselessnot worth asnwering.
What's your belief Al Zulfiqar? Sunni, Wahabi, Shia, Agha Khani?
[/color]
you know very well that my post put you in a corner, so you weaseled out like a weak-kneed coward. everything that i have put down in my post is a summary based on your own arguments with your own pristine and highly erudite logic.
but if my post seems senseless than basically you have proved yrself a fraud and fool. do you get what i was playing at? using your own fraudulent scholarly reasoning, i have proved it to you, to this forum and to the whole world that your arguments are "senseless and not worth answering".
as an afterthought you now need to know my belief position? i will tell you very frankly what i believe without mincing my words. i believe that you are a fraud, a person full of deceit who is wilfully promoting the falsehoods of the kothar, an agent of the mafia clergy planted here to further their agenda of lies, tyranny, loot and intellectual dishonesty. you have not the least moral qualms in twisting and mangling the words of the holy quran and maligning the lives and the practices of the prophet and ali. you show complete disregard for the lives of integrity and sincerity led by past dais and you are hell bent like satan on (mis)quoting scriptures to cement the mockery made of our faith and beliefs by the last 2 dais.
you have been thoroughly exposed in every way for the poverty of your arguments.
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ghulam muhammed
- Posts: 11653
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm
Re: State your belief
Ala maqaam wrote:Also have a Green e-jamat card/green safai chithi. After all of the above, have green carpets in badri/saifee mahal and trample upon the holy colour of Islam, the colour of the dome of Prophet (s.a.w.).
fucked head,there is nothing like holy colour,how low will u go to prove u are right and all other are wrong?
moron for once in a life use your head.
Maqam-e-jahannum,
I can also shower you with the choicest of gaalis which may leave a permanent burn mark on your backside but Iam not doing so in order to maintain the sanctity of the forum. For the moment maybe you should forget about the green Dome, and concentrate on your own dome, your head. Looks like you've got your two hemispheres all mixed up. Your left hemispheres got nothing right, and as for your right hemisphere, looks like theres nothing left.
fucked head,there is nothing like holy colour,how low will u go to prove u are right and all other are wrong?
moron for once in a life use your head.
Re: State your belief
I started off this thread, with a very innocent (honestly) idea of inquiring about the belief of the Forum members, ie which sect of Islam they followed.
As expected for most, it went off topic and many repetitive issues were raised. Thus, it's a no-win situation. Progs/Wahabi s won't be convinced (that was never my aim anyway), neither have the Dawoodi Bohra s views changed.
I had posted 3 very easy questions to HUMSAFAR, that didn't require ANY research :
WHAT IS YOUR BELIEF?
WHO IS YOUR PHYSICAL LEADER TODAY?
AS A MUSLIM, DO YOU PRAY NAMAAZ? WHO LEADS YOUR NAMAAZ? AND WHY HIM/HER?
(Seeing that he couldn't answer, or be proud enough to answer, rather dodge it 3/4 times, makes it very clear about what he's hiding). Thus, I feel there's no point conversing.
And my only simple question to FEAR ALLAH is :
IF he "follows the original DB faith", he would understand that DB faith (after Satr) believed in the Dai Muthlaq of the time. One after the other with continuity without a break. The most important tenet of Dawoodi Bohra faith was the need for a Leader & authority at all times. This is the Islamic/Shia/Fatimi/Dawoodi Bohra faith.
Today he doesn't have a Dai to believe in.
So either the Dais of the past (whom he followed) were wrong, or FEAR ALLAH has made a mistake somewhere. (I am of the opinion of the later).
I have tried to make it clear on a few occasions, that I am not here to debate, preach or convince. That is in Allah s hands.
My reasons for being here is to clarify the True Dawoodi Bohra belief when it is being deliberately distorted by "some".
I am at fault for sometimes agreeing to continue an argument, because that's really not what I came here to do.
As expected for most, it went off topic and many repetitive issues were raised. Thus, it's a no-win situation. Progs/Wahabi s won't be convinced (that was never my aim anyway), neither have the Dawoodi Bohra s views changed.
I had posted 3 very easy questions to HUMSAFAR, that didn't require ANY research :
WHAT IS YOUR BELIEF?
WHO IS YOUR PHYSICAL LEADER TODAY?
AS A MUSLIM, DO YOU PRAY NAMAAZ? WHO LEADS YOUR NAMAAZ? AND WHY HIM/HER?
(Seeing that he couldn't answer, or be proud enough to answer, rather dodge it 3/4 times, makes it very clear about what he's hiding). Thus, I feel there's no point conversing.
And my only simple question to FEAR ALLAH is :
FEAR ALLAH
I follow the DB faith of my ancestors, I follow the original DB faith of every Dai who had qualities of the Prophet, Moulana Ali and Ahlal-bait. Good example is Qutbuddin Shaheed and many more Dais before and after him too. I follow the DB faith which has been there for 90% of the time (1000years – 100years = 900years).
IF he "follows the original DB faith", he would understand that DB faith (after Satr) believed in the Dai Muthlaq of the time. One after the other with continuity without a break. The most important tenet of Dawoodi Bohra faith was the need for a Leader & authority at all times. This is the Islamic/Shia/Fatimi/Dawoodi Bohra faith.
Today he doesn't have a Dai to believe in.
So either the Dais of the past (whom he followed) were wrong, or FEAR ALLAH has made a mistake somewhere. (I am of the opinion of the later).
I have tried to make it clear on a few occasions, that I am not here to debate, preach or convince. That is in Allah s hands.
My reasons for being here is to clarify the True Dawoodi Bohra belief when it is being deliberately distorted by "some".
I am at fault for sometimes agreeing to continue an argument, because that's really not what I came here to do.
Re: State your belief
Adam wrote:I started off this thread, with a very innocent (honestly) idea of inquiring about the belief of the Forum members, ie which sect of Islam they followed.
As expected for most, it went off topic and many repetitive issues were raised. Thus, it's a no-win situation. Progs/Wahabi s won't be convinced (that was never my aim anyway), neither have the Dawoodi Bohra s views changed.
I had posted 3 very easy questions to HUMSAFAR, that didn't require ANY research :
WHAT IS YOUR BELIEF?
WHO IS YOUR PHYSICAL LEADER TODAY?
AS A MUSLIM, DO YOU PRAY NAMAAZ? WHO LEADS YOUR NAMAAZ? AND WHY HIM/HER?
(Seeing that he couldn't answer, or be proud enough to answer, rather dodge it 3/4 times, makes it very clear about what he's hiding). Thus, I feel there's no point conversing.
And my only simple question to FEAR ALLAH is :
FEAR ALLAH
I follow the DB faith of my ancestors, I follow the original DB faith of every Dai who had qualities of the Prophet, Moulana Ali and Ahlal-bait. Good example is Qutbuddin Shaheed and many more Dais before and after him too. I follow the DB faith which has been there for 90% of the time (1000years – 100years = 900years).
IF he "follows the original DB faith", he would understand that DB faith (after Satr) believed in the Dai Muthlaq of the time. One after the other with continuity without a break. The most important tenet of Dawoodi Bohra faith was the need for a Leader & authority at all times. This is the Islamic/Shia/Fatimi/Dawoodi Bohra faith.
Today he doesn't have a Dai to believe in.
So either the Dais of the past (whom he followed) were wrong, or FEAR ALLAH has made a mistake somewhere. (I am of the opinion of the later).
I have tried to make it clear on a few occasions, that I am not here to debate, preach or convince. That is in Allah s hands.
My reasons for being here is to clarify the True Dawoodi Bohra belief when it is being deliberately distorted by "some".
I am at fault for sometimes agreeing to continue an argument, because that's really not what I came here to do.
Bawa Adam bhai stubbornwalla,
Simple and short, I only follow and believe the Dias who have expressed quality of Ahlal-bait and Imams. I dont see that in the last two Dais because i believe they have overthrown the Imam-uz-zaman and deviating from the true DB tradition and Quran for the sake of power and money.
Re: State your belief
fearAllah wrote:
Bawa Adam bhai stubbornwalla,
Simple and short, I only follow and believe the Dias who have expressed quality of Ahlal-bait and Imams. I dont see that in the last two Dais because i believe they have overthrown the Imam-uz-zaman and deviating from the true DB tradition and Quran for the sake of power and money.
No problem. So which till which Dai do you graciously approve off? 50? 49? 48?
Then, what happens after that, for your sake?
And what exactly did the Dais preach? Did they believe in continuation of a Dawat and Duat? (According to true DB belief they did, but you don't seem to have a Dai to lead you.)
Re: State your belief
Adam,
Al Z, anajmi, fearAllah and Humsafar have all given you something to chew on. Your engagement in debate is moving this discussion along and I welcome it. Since it is your intention to clarify the beliefs of the DB faith as you understand them, it would clearly be in the interests of the DB faith to continue the debate.
Frankly, your stand on this matter is the only impediment to the discussion. You want to know what others believe to tailor your inputs and, in any case, you will not divulge anything of what makes you a ‘true believer’ unless others share your faith in the Dai. If Prophet had similar attitude, he would not have imparted the Quran to non-believers and Islam would not have seen much progress. As Humsafar pointed it out to you, please state your positions without being concerned with what others believe.
Let me go out on a limb here and state that the ‘belief’ in Dai is not an article of the DB faith. The position of Dai al-Mutlaq was created by a Yemeni ruler, Hurrat al-Malika, in response to the disappearance of Imam al-Tayyib. The position was supposed to be administrative only. The Dai is the head of Daawat, whose sole function is to invite Muslims to accept Imam as the sole authority within Islam. This clearly is no longer the function of Daawat. We should ponder over the original meanings of the words Dai and Daawat.
The best example of Daawat is Da’aimul Islam, whose purpose was to convince Muslims in the rightness of the rule of the Imams of the House of the Prophet. In this, Bani Fatima were not alone. Existence of rival Imamates have for ever put to rest the notion that Imams were ‘infallible’ and appointed by Allah. In any case, there is no Quranic justification to accord the status of ‘infallibility’ to anyone other than Panjatan in the history of Islam. To invite people to offer allegiance to a Dai, no matter how high he claims to be, is not the mission of Daawat. I do understand that the Dai claims to be inviting Bohras , and only Bohras, in the name of the Imam. However, that is merely a formality which has no practical relevance whatever.
As to the knowledge that you so zealously guard, I know enough about it to know that it has no relevance to modern man. Daawat will never convince anyone outside of minority of Bohras, you being one of them, to fall in sujood to Dai or to accord him the status that deems him to be unaccountable, no matter how much ‘hidden’ knowledge he claims to possess.
I am convinced that you are a minority among Bohras , the majority of whom are not satisfactorily inclined towards the Dai and even less to his family. This despite a massive show of love and affection by the multitude that throngs him everywhere he goes.
What does it mean, practically, to be an abde? The things that make you differ from other Muslims is that you do sujood to Dai, believe that every word of his is noorani and the voice of Allah, pay him whatever he asks of you without question, perform maatam all the time and convince yourself that his sight is second only to paradise. Whatever else you do, it is found in equal measure in all other societies, without the baggage of ‘philosophical’ underpinnings.
These philosophical underpinnings are the Bohra metaphysics whose antecedents are in the thoughts of ancient Greek philosophers, most notably those of Plotinus. The Haqaiq is an interpretation of the Quran in terms of those ideas. But these ideas are not in the Quran and they are not in the writings of pre-Fatmid, nor in the writings of the Fatimid Imams. They are the ideas of scholars, one of them may have been the pre-Fatmid Imam Ahmad al-mastoor. The latter is believed by Bohras to be the author o f Rasa’il Ikhwan as-safa. However, that has been disputed by scholars.
Despite what I have written here, I consider Bohra metaphysics as an interesting historical curiosity but it will not convince anyone to be a Bohra. Nor are Bohras Bohras because of their knowledge of Bohra metaphysics. (Majority do know nor care about it.) The only way to be a Bohra is to be born into it or marry a Bohra. Their beliefs are irrelevant to being a Bohra. They can range from being staunch abdes to being outright atheists. They remain Bohras nevertheless.
Al Z, anajmi, fearAllah and Humsafar have all given you something to chew on. Your engagement in debate is moving this discussion along and I welcome it. Since it is your intention to clarify the beliefs of the DB faith as you understand them, it would clearly be in the interests of the DB faith to continue the debate.
Frankly, your stand on this matter is the only impediment to the discussion. You want to know what others believe to tailor your inputs and, in any case, you will not divulge anything of what makes you a ‘true believer’ unless others share your faith in the Dai. If Prophet had similar attitude, he would not have imparted the Quran to non-believers and Islam would not have seen much progress. As Humsafar pointed it out to you, please state your positions without being concerned with what others believe.
Let me go out on a limb here and state that the ‘belief’ in Dai is not an article of the DB faith. The position of Dai al-Mutlaq was created by a Yemeni ruler, Hurrat al-Malika, in response to the disappearance of Imam al-Tayyib. The position was supposed to be administrative only. The Dai is the head of Daawat, whose sole function is to invite Muslims to accept Imam as the sole authority within Islam. This clearly is no longer the function of Daawat. We should ponder over the original meanings of the words Dai and Daawat.
The best example of Daawat is Da’aimul Islam, whose purpose was to convince Muslims in the rightness of the rule of the Imams of the House of the Prophet. In this, Bani Fatima were not alone. Existence of rival Imamates have for ever put to rest the notion that Imams were ‘infallible’ and appointed by Allah. In any case, there is no Quranic justification to accord the status of ‘infallibility’ to anyone other than Panjatan in the history of Islam. To invite people to offer allegiance to a Dai, no matter how high he claims to be, is not the mission of Daawat. I do understand that the Dai claims to be inviting Bohras , and only Bohras, in the name of the Imam. However, that is merely a formality which has no practical relevance whatever.
As to the knowledge that you so zealously guard, I know enough about it to know that it has no relevance to modern man. Daawat will never convince anyone outside of minority of Bohras, you being one of them, to fall in sujood to Dai or to accord him the status that deems him to be unaccountable, no matter how much ‘hidden’ knowledge he claims to possess.
I am convinced that you are a minority among Bohras , the majority of whom are not satisfactorily inclined towards the Dai and even less to his family. This despite a massive show of love and affection by the multitude that throngs him everywhere he goes.
What does it mean, practically, to be an abde? The things that make you differ from other Muslims is that you do sujood to Dai, believe that every word of his is noorani and the voice of Allah, pay him whatever he asks of you without question, perform maatam all the time and convince yourself that his sight is second only to paradise. Whatever else you do, it is found in equal measure in all other societies, without the baggage of ‘philosophical’ underpinnings.
These philosophical underpinnings are the Bohra metaphysics whose antecedents are in the thoughts of ancient Greek philosophers, most notably those of Plotinus. The Haqaiq is an interpretation of the Quran in terms of those ideas. But these ideas are not in the Quran and they are not in the writings of pre-Fatmid, nor in the writings of the Fatimid Imams. They are the ideas of scholars, one of them may have been the pre-Fatmid Imam Ahmad al-mastoor. The latter is believed by Bohras to be the author o f Rasa’il Ikhwan as-safa. However, that has been disputed by scholars.
Despite what I have written here, I consider Bohra metaphysics as an interesting historical curiosity but it will not convince anyone to be a Bohra. Nor are Bohras Bohras because of their knowledge of Bohra metaphysics. (Majority do know nor care about it.) The only way to be a Bohra is to be born into it or marry a Bohra. Their beliefs are irrelevant to being a Bohra. They can range from being staunch abdes to being outright atheists. They remain Bohras nevertheless.
Re: State your belief
Fantastic Post..Especially the last paragraph. Very aptly summarises the way I feel.
Thanks Porus!!
Thanks Porus!!
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Al Zulfiqar
- Posts: 4618
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am
Re: State your belief
the quotes in red are adam's. let us examine how ludicrous they are...
"I have tried to make it clear on a few occasions, that I am not here to debate, preach or convince."
Can you please point out where you have tried to make this clear? And what have you been engaged in on this entire thread, if not debating, proselytizing and attempting tooth and nail to convert us to your dishonest and deceptive form of logic and thinking?
"That is in Allah s hands"
So now when all your stupid arguments have been blasted to smithereens, you want to take the high road and bring Allah into it?
"My reasons for being here is to clarify the True Dawoodi Bohra belief when it is being deliberately distorted by "some"."
So here go contradicting your first statement as above, where you said that you are not here to debate, preach and convince! Repeating your lies often and stridently will not make them magically true. According to you the "True Dawoodi Bohra belief" is to acknowledge that the dai is infallible and superior to the Prophet and Ali, because he can accept and command sajdas to him, he can send even a sinner and haramkhor to jannat with his ruku chithhi, he can refuse to pardon a bohra who has refused to follow his unislamic farmaans even if that bohra has repented to Allah and undertakes a thousand haj, he can forcibly divorce bohra couples, he can condemn you to hell, he can accept black money and money earned illegally and illicitly as his salam, he hobnobs with the rich and famous while ignoring the poor and deprived.
Anyone who opposes this unethical and unislamic behaviour is deliberately 'distorting' your True and core Dawoodi bohra beliefs" is it?
"I have tried to make it clear on a few occasions, that I am not here to debate, preach or convince."
Can you please point out where you have tried to make this clear? And what have you been engaged in on this entire thread, if not debating, proselytizing and attempting tooth and nail to convert us to your dishonest and deceptive form of logic and thinking?
"That is in Allah s hands"
So now when all your stupid arguments have been blasted to smithereens, you want to take the high road and bring Allah into it?
"My reasons for being here is to clarify the True Dawoodi Bohra belief when it is being deliberately distorted by "some"."
So here go contradicting your first statement as above, where you said that you are not here to debate, preach and convince! Repeating your lies often and stridently will not make them magically true. According to you the "True Dawoodi Bohra belief" is to acknowledge that the dai is infallible and superior to the Prophet and Ali, because he can accept and command sajdas to him, he can send even a sinner and haramkhor to jannat with his ruku chithhi, he can refuse to pardon a bohra who has refused to follow his unislamic farmaans even if that bohra has repented to Allah and undertakes a thousand haj, he can forcibly divorce bohra couples, he can condemn you to hell, he can accept black money and money earned illegally and illicitly as his salam, he hobnobs with the rich and famous while ignoring the poor and deprived.
Anyone who opposes this unethical and unislamic behaviour is deliberately 'distorting' your True and core Dawoodi bohra beliefs" is it?
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Al Zulfiqar
- Posts: 4618
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am
Re: State your belief
you should ask that to the hidden imam, since it is he who is hiding, when he plans to end this confusion and reveal himself, esp. when the 51st dai had openly admitted in court under oath that the entire concept of a hidden imam is a myth and belief system only.Adam wrote:
No problem. So which till which Dai do you graciously approve off? 50? 49? 48?
Then, what happens after that, for your sake?