Ismaili Interpretation of 2.28

[Average Bohra]

Originally posted by anajmi:
The direction facing mecca.

I would dump the $35 book you just bought. You are already smart enough to be a Wahabi.

[anajmi]

Average,

I like doing that with you. You should know by now that I actually do not care about answering your questions very much.

jamanpasand,

If I am in a such a situation as Average suggests, I will carry a copy of Taawili/Batini ilm of the Living Imam. I am sure he has the answer to that question.

[anajmi]

Or maybe he doesn't. Maybe that is the reason why he has asked his followers to give up the prayer that requires you to face mecca.

[porus]

Jamanpasand has a splendid idea, a self-adjusting Makka-seeking musalla. Unfortunately, it will not be of much use when Wahhabis colonize the moon and establish the first masjid there.

I mean, everyone will have to lie down on their backs so that can see Makka in the sky while praying. And the rate at which moon and earth turn with respect to each other, namaaz times will have to be pretty short. There has got to be a hadith about that.

[porus]

anajmi,

Evolutionists who think that evolution proves non-existence of God must have recently converted from Wahhabism to Evolutionists. They have retained a lot of their bigotry from their earlier affiliation.

On the other hand, evolutionists who think that evolution proves existence of God are well on their way to become excellent candidates for Wahhabism.

[OnePragmatist]

Originally posted by anajmi:
Now for human suffering. The inequality that we see amongst humans, which eventually leads to human suffering, is necessary for the functioning of the world. If everyone on earth were created equal, the world would stop functioning. No one would clean your garbage and no one would grow your food. This inequality leads to suffering because of the selfishness of humans.

Let's discuss EQUALITY AND INEQUALITY. I think these two terms is [plz note I am not using 'are'] the essence which is rooted in every aspect of our lives on this earth from a simple translation of an ayah to our daily routine. Inequality is to subdue suffering where Equality is to create suffering!

Equality creates selfishness, where Inequality breaks it. Why Allah gives us suffering, so that you understand HIS true meaning of compassion. And thus, this cycle never ends.

How does Equality create selfishness? This is a broad term. An abstract term. Money has everything to do with it. The power of money pulls people together on one platform. It could be a very small family to a religious authority to a nation. All these three terms comprise of many men and women who stand together for a motive. Could be good or could be bad. Whatever the reasons or whatever the stakes, there is someone or several members in each group who misuse that authoritative power of togetherness. That is selfishness which breaks the circle of Equality and thus leads to human suffering.

[jawanmardan]

Muslim First,

I thank you for your instructions, but freedom of speech allows me to quote the Qu’ran in refutation of your prejudice. Your post was excellent.

It is God Himself Who altered the legal prescriptions to suit different nations at different times and in different circumstances.

As the imamate does now.

If this is so, then how is it that God would no longer guide you after the final revelation in regard to “Different Nations and in Different times”? surely God would not allow us to go without guidance? While our chain is complete; you waited 200 years after the death of Muhammed (saw) for Bukhari, and Hanboli etal to guide you. Odd is it not?

Those who understand true religion….its spirit and essence…aware of the true importance of the different legal prescriptions, always recognize the Truth and accept it whatever its form.

Again I agree…Spirit and essence, no matter its form.

in contrast to those who are not conversant with the spirit of true religion…who seem to identify it with a specific body of legal minutiae.

Don’t you focus on legal minutiae? Which direction ones toes should focus…etc Finger up or down during salat?

Such people have overlaid God-given principles with their own legal deductions, and have sub sequently fossilized this entire amalgam, seeking to preserve it in its entirety.

is that not what you seek to do, fossilise the faith as it was 1400 years ago, and preserve the words of Bukahari, and the interpretation of your scholors?

They have grown so attached to it that, in order to preserve it, they spurn every directive

Is he describing you?

purpose of all the divine religious laws is the attainment of goodness and righteousness.

Look at the AKDN. Number of people brought out of poverty.

This purpose can be achieved only when a man obeys whatever commandment he receives from God at a particular time.

At a particular time eh? The Imam of the Time fulfils this criterion.

The proper mode of conduct… is to strive for God's good pleasure rather than quarrel about differences in the legal prescriptions

I don’t think he approves of your quarrelling over “legal proscriptions”.

The differences which have arisen because of the unjustified rigidity, prejudice, obduracy and erroneous attitudes of the human mind

Agreed, rigidity, prejudice, are all negative, you see your scholars as non divinely guided human minds then why follow them? So good luck with that.

can be finally settled neither in the debating hall. The final judgment will be made by God Himself.

So why are we even debating this leave it to God to decide.

So my friend we are talking about laws given to different prophets, not law violating so called Imams.

Prophets receive the law, Imams Interpret it. You base yours on Scholars who lived long, long ago my friend. Any wonder why there are so many Progressive reform movements springing up?

Please remember no matter how hard you try you will never be able to proove that you can change Namaaz and Hajj follow man made 'Farmans' and boooks of poetry (Ginan) and still pretend to be a Muslim.

Learn more about the Isma’ili and you will know those are all false accusations, regarding Namazz, Our Imams found Isma’ili in India praying a long hymn in local languages, Panjabi, Sindhi etc, since they were only half converted from Hinduism. Slowly they began a process of Islamisation, making the Du’a in Arabic, and basing it around Qu’ranic Ayah. And re-educating us about the traditional Salaat which was then practiced as well. The Imams may well when we are as a jammat reconnected and united all practice the traditional Salaat.

Wa Salaam

NB: To make my long response as concise as possible I have edited lines refer to Muslim firsts original Cut and paste from the net response for the full deal.

[Muslim First]

From " FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ON QIBLA DIRECTION "

Question: Some people talk about shortest distance concept about Qibla. What do you have to say about that?

Answer: If you go to Masjid-al-Haram in Makkah, you will see that people make circles around Ka'bah when they pray. These circles continue to grow as you go farther and farther from Ka'bah. Every person on these circles is facing toward the shortest distance from Ka'bah. Imagine this circle growing and growing on the surface of the globe. Every person on these circles is actually located on another circle called Great Circle defined by the largest circle you get if you cut the globe by a knife in two equal halves, such that the knife cuts through the location of that person and Makkah. The plane of this Great Circle makes an angle from True North. This is the angle you should turn to face Ka'bah. Renouned Muslim astronomers like al-Biruni, al-Battani, and others in the last 1000 years have described this concept.
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[makberi]

Originally posted by jawanmardan:
.

Learn more about the Isma’ili and you will know those are all false accusations, regarding Namazz, Our Imams found Isma’ili in India praying a long hymn in local languages, Panjabi, Sindhi etc, since they were only half converted from Hinduism. Slowly they began a process of Islamisation, making the Du’a in Arabic, and basing it around Qu’ranic Ayah. And re-educating us about the traditional Salaat which was then practiced as well. The Imams may well when we are as a jammat reconnected and united all practice the traditional Salaat.

.[/QB][/QUOTE]

now jawanmardan i m in sorta confusion.....wat i understood frm previous posts by u and other nizaris was that u were of a more sufi school of thought which dint really lay much emphasis in the practice of the salaat or other such rituals....but in the above response u seem to say tht the Imam is slowly moving the indian nizaris towards the Prophet's sunnah...isnt that a contradiction......

[Muslim First]

.
For Porus

Question: Does the Quran or Hadith offer any guidance for usng shortest distance to Makkah in determining the Qibla direction?

Answer: Qur'an says, "wa haisu ma kuntum fawallu wujuhakum shatrah" [2: 144] or "wa min haisu kharajta fawalli wajhaka shatral-masjidil-haraam" [2: 149]
In this guidance is built commendment for shortest distance of vision as the direction for vision.

Source same as my previous post
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[Muslim First]

JM

You have all the rights to post Qur'an translations. Please make sure you post your sources. I do not trust innovators, they have way of fudging the truth.

BTW I would like to find source of your translation of 5.48

Take care, peace
.

[Muslim First]

regarding Namazz, Our Imams found Isma’ili in India praying a long hymn in local languages, Panjabi, Sindhi etc, since they were only half converted from Hinduism. Slowly they began a process of Islamisation, making the Du’a in Arabic, and basing it around Qu’ranic Ayah. And re-educating us about the traditional Salaat which was then practiced as well. The Imams may well when we are as a jammat reconnected and united all practice the traditional Salaat.

Once again clever dodge;

I find newely converted Muslims struggling to learn Prophetic way of praying (Salat) and learn it within short times. All it takes is one Farman. I have seen pictures of Grand Sire of this Imam leading traditional prayers. For some reason only known to him he changed mode of worship and I qoute:

ShamsB
Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 389

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 8:09 pm Post subject: Rites and Ceremony- Giriyazari Tasbih

Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah during his first visit to Zanzibar in 1899 during which He attended Jamat Khana daily and taught the Jamat how to do the rites and rituals pertaining to the practise of our faith, from Nandi to Ghat Pat Dua, to Channta, to how Mukhi/Kamadia Sahebs should act.

My guess is he did not like prayers directed to Allah and he wanted to be focus of prayers.

Come clen brother and do not deceive us.
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[Muslim First]

Buy a magnetic revolving mas-sal-la. That will keep adjusting your direction to the Wahabi land.

Br. JP

I am sure you are having good time making fun of Wahabis. During debate, I think your brain stops all activity and you are stuck for answers then you resort to one answer Wahabi or Wahabism.

Answer to your question is simple. If you are on ship you start or Salat in the direction of Kabbah (or best guess) if ship turns then you continue to pray. Allah is not that righid. Every prayers done with Khusu will be accecpted Insha Allah.

Wasalaam
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[Muslim First]

And the hair-spilitting question, what about the person exactly half-way round the globe from Makka. I suppose he could face either direction.

AS a Person familiar with Science of directions and distances (There is a profession and it has a name, I will leave it for you to guess) my answer is this;

If you are standing precisly on great circle described in previous post then you can pray either dirction. If two person stand back to back with great circle line in between them then they should pray in opposite directions. It will do them good if they moved 3 feet in either dirction and pray together towards one direction. It's all useless to you, you are just having fun with glib Wahabis.

Wasalaam
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[jawanmardan]

Come clen brother and do not deceive us

Muslim First, I choose not to dialogue with you if you persist in calling me a liar. Which is a constant accusation you derive a vacant pleasure from asserting.

If that’s the best you can come up with after your own cut and paste job refutes your weak position, I see no point.

[Humsafar]

Talking of self-consistency of a belief system, if we're to consider the Quran, sunnah and ahadith as frames of reference then, sadly, the Wahabis are more "true" to Islam than any other sects. In fact, my beef is that they are not consistent enough. They pick and choose doctrinaire commands to suit their agenda. If they were to carry their literal interpretation to the logical end the whole world should have been Muslim today. They are as guilty of cheating Allah as any other so-called enlightened Muslim sects.

[porus]

Muslim First,

If you had thought about it yourself rather than referring to Quran, which does not mention shortness of distance by the way, or an advisor, you would have come to a right conclusion by yourself.

Consider Makka as the pole and draw latitudes from there (0) all the way to 180 degrees. And longitudes from there (0) all the way to 360 degrees. Then all you need to do is face the pole and you are facing Makka.

So Wahhabis should immediately set about getting an international agreement designating Makka as the pole. They can let others define it as North or South pole.

[porus]

Humsafar,

I agree, Wahhabis are true to their version of Islam. But so are all other sects. That is the 'un-beauty' of belief.

[porus]

Evolutionists thinking that Evolution proves or dis-proves God's existence are like 'Gravitationists' who think Gravity proves or dis-proves God's existence.

[anajmi]

porus,

On the other hand, evolutionists who think that evolution proves existence of God are well on their way to become excellent candidates for Wahhabism.

I am not as familiar with Wahabism as you are, so I wouldn't be able to comment on what makes a good wahabi. Sometime back I heard that if you wear a burqa and high heels you are a wahabi. The definition of a wahabi changes based upon the mood and the context of the one describing a wahabi. We also heard that someone trying to face mecca in a boat half way around the globe from mecca is a wahabi. I wouldn't care too much about what a wahabi thinks. But I know that it would be asking too much of you to give up your defenses and simply talk quran and logic.

Try not to reply to my post so that we can end this pointless discussion.

[jawanmardan]

now jawanmardan i m in sorta confusion.....wat i understood frm previous posts by u and other nizaris was that u were of a more sufi school of thought which dint really lay much emphasis in the practice of the salaat or other such rituals....but in the above response u seem to say tht the Imam is slowly moving the indian nizaris towards the Prophet's sunnah...isnt that a contradiction......

Brother Makberi,

Thank you for your question. There are a lot of issues here so I will deal with only one.

Everything Isma’ili do has a historic context. When you remove or are ignorant of history we would appear strange. You have to step back and understand the reasons why we are the way we are and that can only comes from history.

I am not saying we are going to practice orthodox Sharia, but the values of Sharia in the modern context. You can definitely see a move over generations, How young isma’ili keep roza, and like myself are going for Hajj etc

The Imams when they came to India and the Jammat received their re-gained contact, built schools and welfare programmes, the first girls school Iran.

Later Imam stopped the 30min Du’a and instituted a 5min Du’a in Arabic, based on Qu’ranic Ayah. It affirms our unity and brotherhood and sisterhood, it is a deep supplication to God, and understanding of the role of Imam.

So Our Imams did not stop Salaat or forbid it, so the question as Muslim First put it why does not our Imam re impose it?

The advantage of offering Du’a is it reminds and educates a generation about Allah, The role of the Imam, dhikr with tasbih and learning the chain of our Imams, another advantage is it offers women the chance of full participation in Khana, I love hearing my mother lead the prayer, and being able to go to Khana as a family, and share the same space. We couldn’t do that if we did the Salaat without being attacked.

The institute of Isma’ili studies and the AKDN encourage an appreciation of Islamic history, and Islamic culture. Yet brother I admit Isma’ili are often very secretive about our faith, and are not open about what we believe but Inshallah this will change.

[anajmi]

porus,

I am not sure why you are worried about how Wahabis will pray on the moon. The question of prayer is clear enough in a lot more than 99.999999999% of practical cases. Even you cannot deny that. That is the reason why you have to consider only impractical cases to extend your arguments. Those who seek fitna have been clearly defined in the quran. You fit the description very well.

[Humsafar]

Porus,

What I'm driving at is that within the framework of the quran, sunnah and ahadith as a self-contained ideology - without reference to historical legacy and developments - the wahhabi version is more self-consistent than other sects. All versions of Islam accord sanctity to these three points of reference, but I think the Wahhabis come closest to adehering to them (i.e. the quran, sunnah and ahadith) on their own terms.

A secondary point being, absolutist religion commands absolutist interpretation and adherence.
This is how it was meant to be. An "enlightened" interpretation or rendering is just an attempt to soften the edges and make an atavistic ideology somehow fit into current thiniking so that it appears to be be more with the times, more acceptable. No wonder Wahhabis are so angry at "modern" Muslims.

[anajmi]

It is also pretty clear from the quran that it is more important to offer prayer than to miss a prayer trying to figure out which direction to pray. Only fools would actually dispute the act of praying just because they haven't been able to figure out a direction in which to pray.

[jawanmardan]

Salaam Brother Humsafer,

if we're to consider the Quran, sunnah and ahadith as frames of reference

,

That’s a big if. And does not leave room for authentication of Hadith, and methodology of Interpretation particularly in regard Al-Quran, which is a scripture of immense complexity. Let alone the historical context of succession of the Prophet. Not to mention Ijtihad.

If they were to carry their literal interpretation to the logical end

Specking of logical ends, then if we are to make the former assumptions, it is hard to refute that the Salafi/Wahabbi have become prisoners of their own purism which compels them to take their beliefs to their logical conclusion even if the consequences lead to absurd and dangerous results; Purdah and the need to keep women separate leads someone in a fire service to not rescues women, and young girls burning to death. Suicide bombings are acceptable against the Israeli civilians leads us to 9/11, and suicide bombings in the London, Madrid, etc.

My warmest Regards.

[porus]

Originally posted by Muslim First:

If you are standing precisly on great circle described in previous post then you can pray either dirction.

But MF, you are always standing on the great circle going through you and Makka, no matter where you are on the gflobe. There is no escaping it. And you are right, either way you will be facing Makka. One way, for the most part, is definitely shorter. And there is no confirmation from Quran and Hadith literature that you must face in the shorter direction, unless of course you can dig one up.

[anajmi]

Here is one expert on wahabism blaming wahabis for everything because they haven't understood the quran and here is another expert on wahabism blaming wahabis for exactly the same things because they have are the only ones who are following the quran properly.

[jawanmardan]

You can’t face Mecca, unless our world were perfectly flat or at least in proportion to the height of the Kabba. The reality is we live on a sphere and as such most Muslims I imagine are praying up to space.

The facing of the Kabba Like most things, is a symbolic reminder of our brotherhood and sisterhood. Of the values of Ummah. If one were within the Kabba one could pray in any direction, we cannot physically all fit in the Kabba, so by facing it we ae symbolically sharing a space.

So if One were On the moon perhaps facing earth world would suffice unless the constant rotation, and elliptical orbit of both the earth, and the moon would prove too great a challenge to architects, requiring buidings that could rotate in every angle.

[anajmi]

porus,

And there is no confirmation from Quran and Hadith literature that you must face in the shorter direction, unless of course you can dig one up.

Then pray facing the longer direction. As Muslim First said before, there is no need to worry about the direction as long as you worry about offering your prayers with sincerity. The quran actually makes it pretty clear.

[Humsafar]

Jawanmardan,

Methodology, authenticity etc. are afterthoughts. If the Quran needed a methodology it would have said so or at least come with a manual on how to interpret it. The Quran means what it says - no intellectual ifs and no histoical buts.

anajmi,
I'm not blaming the wahhabis for anything. If you failed to notice, I'm questioning the absolutist creed itself.