Sheikh Mudar Ezzi writes, among other things, on the Kothari website to-day, Dec 6, 2004 at dawoodi bohras@mumineen.org: under the heading "Checkered Mosaic"
"we have a common bond, a unique culture, a common language, a standard calendar, a uniform code of conduct that absolutely defines the rights & the wrongs, one goal, one platform & one base of knowledge.
Our geographic existence might be checkered, but the entire mosaic of our community is a beautiful picture of harmony, painted by a divine hand. Our Tryst with destiny begins & ends in the same spiritual allegiance.
We are taught to be absolutely loyal to the country we reside in, we are a peace loving community, that gives us a rare edge over all others, and yet inspite of all diversities, we are one.
What really makes us tick? What gives us a place of pride & what makes us so special?
We have a Maula, who over the years, has given us an identity, that no other government in the world can provide. "
OUR RESPONSE: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future:
We have a common bond, a unique culture, a common language, a standard calendar, , one goal, one platform & one base of knowledge. a uniform code of conduct that absolutely defines the rights & the wrongs
Common Bond: Absolute dictatorship, extortion, threats, intimidation,shirk
a unique culture: a mixture of hindu ceremonies and rituals, prostrations, coupled with purjosh matam and forced collection of waajebaats (sophisticated begging)
common language: Adulterated Gujrati peppered and adulterated with Indian Bhaiyyah dialect, arabic, urdu and hindi
a standard calendar: not unique to Bohris - Misrri or Egyptian Calendar. Really a Lunar Calaendar
a uniform code of conduct that absolutely defines the rights & the wrongs: more defines the wrongs (infraction of Shariah, civil, human and Women righjts (FGM) than rights (human rights)
Our geographic existence might be checkered, but the entire mosaic of our community is a beautiful picture of harmony, painted by a divine hand. Our Tryst with destiny begins & ends in the same spiritual allegiance.
Our geographic existence might be checkered: thank goodness, otherwise the Sultanat of Bohris will be much oppressive than Saudi Arabia or Islamic Republic of Iran
the entire mosaic of our community is a beautiful picture of harmony, painted by a divine hand: it is a hotpotch of Kothari sycophants like Sheikh Mudar torturing the sheep-like followers into surrendering their sould and wealth for the few corrupt Kothari leaders and the "royal" family. It is a sad picture of fear, concersn painted by the iron hands of Kothari Princes and Princesses.
Our Tryst with destiny begins & ends in the same spiritual allegiance: The Bohri's tryst starts with Raza to conceive, deliver, and name the child and continues with Raza for Misaq (mandatory and suppressive oath of allegiance to forsake their worldly and spiritual freedoms and continuing further with RAza for bethrotal, marriage and ends ith the Raza on the day of death - and of course paying for the recommendation to Allah called Hukkan Nafs and the exorbitant cost of the cemetry lot and raza for burial, ziyarat, 3rd,monthly,40th, 6 month,annual feast. All razas ofcourse after paying a hefty salaams to the Kothari Agent(s)
We are taught to be absolutely loyal to the country we reside in,
we are a peace loving community, that gives us a rare edge over all others, and yet inspite of all diversities, we are one.
What really makes us tick? What gives us a place of pride & whatmakes us so special?
We have a Maula, who over the years, has given us an identity, that no other government in the world can provide.
We are taught to be absolutely loyal to the country we reside in: Yaa, what about infarction of the developing country's exchange control laws (Tanzania), smuggling of gems in paagris(Sri Lanka); corrupting the political leaders of countries;
we are a peace loving community, that gives us a rare edge over all others, and yet inspite of all diversities: the leader loves their followers' money and wealth; once the wealth is stripped off, the followers are thrown and ignored like spent diapers. The followers go hungry, their women prostiute themselves to pay their waajebats(compulsory dues) to maintain Kothari Princes and Princesses.
What really makes us tick? What gives us a place of pride & whatmakes us so special?: Pur Josh matam, hysteria, prostration to the Kothari leaders, Raza Chithis like the traffic lights (red, amber and green); uniforms like th telephome system: STD - Saya, Topi and Dadhi for the Menfolk and parachute-like and psychedelic Riddas for the Womenfolk which attracts men's attention any where and any time.
We have a Maula, who over the years, has given us an identity, that no other government in the world can provide: Yaa, what about the Pope and his Vatican Government; The Dalai Lama and his government in exile; the Queen of England, Head of the Church of England and Defender of the Faith;
Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
A very apt reply!!! Way to go
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
People take Raza to coceive ?! You ARE kidding right??! Though given the present scenario it might well be true.
I think our community is collectively insane.
"Whom the Gods want to destroy, they first make mad."
I think our community is collectively insane.
"Whom the Gods want to destroy, they first make mad."
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
proud to be dawoodi bohras !
You guys are getting absolutely predictable with your mononotonous chants , play another record.
You are running out of ideas and running scared.
The bohra community is getting stronger and you muddais are getting weaker !
There is no where for you to go. You are lost souls.
well flush you down the sewers.
You guys are getting absolutely predictable with your mononotonous chants , play another record.
You are running out of ideas and running scared.
The bohra community is getting stronger and you muddais are getting weaker !
There is no where for you to go. You are lost souls.
well flush you down the sewers.
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Mumineen,
If you find such things wrong with the clergy and followers...why do you want to apart of the community in the first place. You have absolutely little defense against their beliefs and practices...other than your opinion or interpretation of them being "unislamic". And with every defense or proof they provide..you call it a "spin".
So why not just let them be the "cult" that you call them and bark up another tree (wahabis are always ripe for the picking). You can't called yourself a bohra other than by name, because you deny the main parts of their beliefs...the mithaq, the rights of the Dai, their amals, language, dress, organization, etc.
You have a problem with every major aspect of the orthodox community. You don't want to discuss the ortho point of views. Get on with your lives.
If you find such things wrong with the clergy and followers...why do you want to apart of the community in the first place. You have absolutely little defense against their beliefs and practices...other than your opinion or interpretation of them being "unislamic". And with every defense or proof they provide..you call it a "spin".
So why not just let them be the "cult" that you call them and bark up another tree (wahabis are always ripe for the picking). You can't called yourself a bohra other than by name, because you deny the main parts of their beliefs...the mithaq, the rights of the Dai, their amals, language, dress, organization, etc.
You have a problem with every major aspect of the orthodox community. You don't want to discuss the ortho point of views. Get on with your lives.
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Emm:
Yaa, to conceive!!
By asking the Kothari Agents for Raza and "chogaryu" (right time for the good omen) for the Nikah or Oramnu(zafaf)or what happens after Rukhsati ceremony
Trance and Hur:
Mr. Shaukat Ajmeri has already responded to the likes of you on this website on the REFORM ISSUES as follows:
No separation please, we are Dawoodi Bohras
By Shaukat Ajmeri
Anyone who has tried to argue the Bohra reformist case is sooner or later met with this response: if you have problems why don't you separate and start your own 'religion'. This response is typical of a mindset that's best captured by the cliché: "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." If the same argument were applied to the Iraqi occupation (circa 2004), you would end up telling the Iraqis, "if you can't stand the Americans, get out of Iraq."
The absurdity of this argument is obvious. But such is its insidious pull that even some reformists have begun to cleave to the idea that, indeed, we should separate and go our own way. This is dangerous thinking as it demolishes the very foundation on which the reform movement is built. But it is understandable why this thinking is catching on. As time passes we tend to lose focus of the objectives of the Bohra reform movement. Therefore it is important that we keep reiterating the central issues we are fighting for:
1. Accountability: The Bohra clergy must account for the millions of dollars it collects from the community. This money should be spent on the welfare and other needs of the community.
2. Jamaat democracy: Members of every jamaat should have the right to elect its own council. Local jamaats should have control and ownership of local properties, including masjids, jamaatkhanas, gullas etc.
3. End of baraat: End the use of "ex-communication." It is outdated and unconscionable instrument of control.
4. End raza and misaaq: These and various other "requirements" are recent innovations designed to coerce and control. Their religious validity is untenable.
5. Limit the role of clergy: The Dai is our spiritual leader and as such he and his clergy should stick to matters religious. Their interference in secular and social affairs of Bohras is unnecessary and unjustified.
6. Respect and dignity: Bohras have a right to be treated with respect and dignity by the priesthood.We are not Dai's slaves and should not be treated as such.
Now how does one resolve these issues with an act of separation? The idea of separation is dangerous, self-defeating and ultimately meaningless:
§ because separation means failure. If we separate we will fail to accomplish the objectives we set out to achieve.
§ because, even assuming that we leave the mainstream, there will always be people who would rise against the corrupt priesthood. A decadent system will always have its challengers. And if every succeeding reformist group were to go its separate ways, you can imagine the result.
§ because, Dawoodi Bohra-ism is our religious-cultural identity.We share a wealth of inherited traditions, institutions, a common memory and narratives that give us our roots, a sense of belonging, a place in the world. Separation would mean an end to this glorious continuum.
§ because our identity is rooted in the Ismaili Mustalian Dawoodi Bohra faith. And the seat of this faith - the Dawat - is now hijacked by a corrupt "royal family." Who knows the future Dais may be more amenable to our grievances. Separation would mean a fundamental disconnect from our faith.
§ because it is our moral and religious duty to carry on the struggle. Separation would mean abandonment of Islamic principles which urge us to fight for justice and dignity.
§ because separation would make nonsense of our past struggles and a mockery of our sufferings and sacrifices.
§ because separation is what the Bohra clergy wants. And we shall deny it that satisfaction.
One can think of many more reasons, but these are just a few that readily come to mind.
True, the Bohra clergy is very powerful and has arrogated the right to determine who is a Bohra and who is a munafiq. And that is the whole point of the reform movement: to take that right away from an unaccountable clergy that exercises an illegitimate and unchallenged control over us.
As we all know, the clergy has responded fiercely, and at times violently, to reformists' demands. They see us as spoil-sports bent upon wrecking their gravy train. And given the financial steam and political clout it runs on, reformist successes have been few and far between.
If anything, our numbers have actually dwindled. This is not very heartening. But let's not forget what we are up against. The clergy has maintained a powerful grip on the community through an elaborate system of control, manipulation, indoctrination, fear and religious mumbo jumbo. And it seems to be working, from the look of things. But scratch the surface and you will find a ground-swell of discontent. Even so, the majority of Bohras continue to remain in the orthodox fold. Why? Their motives are many and complex, but the chief among them has to do with convenience. It's more convenient to conform. Bohras temperamentally are meek and docile.
They know the consequences of sticking out their neck. And they don't. It doesn't have to be this way though. Human beings have an inherent urge to seek a system that's just and fair (be it religious, political or social). If Bohras had a choice, they would opt for a just and fair system. But this choice is not going to fall from the heavens. It never has.We'll have to create this choice.
Some of us, trapped in this impossible "Bohra situation", often confess that things will always remain the same; that people and their nature will never change. Or that the clergy is just too powerful; we cannot make a dent on them.
But let's take history as our guide. There was a time when it was all right to burn people at the stakes; it was all right to draw and quarter people; it was all right to conquer continents through war and genocide; it was all right to own slaves; it was acceptable to deny votes to women; it was normal to deny civil rights to blacks. These acts - mostly of dominant elites - were standard operating procedure of their times. But today our "human nature," enlightened by the values of our age, is appalled by such cruelty and oppression. This change is what progress is all about.
True, the world is still in a mess - a clear sign that we will always have to fight for justice and a life of dignity. With changing times, attitudes too change. And the attitude that today makes the Bohra clergy "acceptable" will change too. It's only a matter of time. But we'll have to fight for it. Abandoning the reformist cause will only postpone that change.
As for the clergy being too powerful, I've just this to say. Whatever happened to the Roman Empire, the British Raj and European conquest and colonialism? They are all "history" now, thanks to peoples' enduring hope and struggle for a better tomorrow.
In the larger scheme of things the Bohra clergy is a petty if vicious outfit. Our fight against it is part of the larger struggle for a just world. To paraphrase an old saying, revolution begins at home.
Yaa, to conceive!!
By asking the Kothari Agents for Raza and "chogaryu" (right time for the good omen) for the Nikah or Oramnu(zafaf)or what happens after Rukhsati ceremony
Trance and Hur:
Mr. Shaukat Ajmeri has already responded to the likes of you on this website on the REFORM ISSUES as follows:
No separation please, we are Dawoodi Bohras
By Shaukat Ajmeri
Anyone who has tried to argue the Bohra reformist case is sooner or later met with this response: if you have problems why don't you separate and start your own 'religion'. This response is typical of a mindset that's best captured by the cliché: "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." If the same argument were applied to the Iraqi occupation (circa 2004), you would end up telling the Iraqis, "if you can't stand the Americans, get out of Iraq."
The absurdity of this argument is obvious. But such is its insidious pull that even some reformists have begun to cleave to the idea that, indeed, we should separate and go our own way. This is dangerous thinking as it demolishes the very foundation on which the reform movement is built. But it is understandable why this thinking is catching on. As time passes we tend to lose focus of the objectives of the Bohra reform movement. Therefore it is important that we keep reiterating the central issues we are fighting for:
1. Accountability: The Bohra clergy must account for the millions of dollars it collects from the community. This money should be spent on the welfare and other needs of the community.
2. Jamaat democracy: Members of every jamaat should have the right to elect its own council. Local jamaats should have control and ownership of local properties, including masjids, jamaatkhanas, gullas etc.
3. End of baraat: End the use of "ex-communication." It is outdated and unconscionable instrument of control.
4. End raza and misaaq: These and various other "requirements" are recent innovations designed to coerce and control. Their religious validity is untenable.
5. Limit the role of clergy: The Dai is our spiritual leader and as such he and his clergy should stick to matters religious. Their interference in secular and social affairs of Bohras is unnecessary and unjustified.
6. Respect and dignity: Bohras have a right to be treated with respect and dignity by the priesthood.We are not Dai's slaves and should not be treated as such.
Now how does one resolve these issues with an act of separation? The idea of separation is dangerous, self-defeating and ultimately meaningless:
§ because separation means failure. If we separate we will fail to accomplish the objectives we set out to achieve.
§ because, even assuming that we leave the mainstream, there will always be people who would rise against the corrupt priesthood. A decadent system will always have its challengers. And if every succeeding reformist group were to go its separate ways, you can imagine the result.
§ because, Dawoodi Bohra-ism is our religious-cultural identity.We share a wealth of inherited traditions, institutions, a common memory and narratives that give us our roots, a sense of belonging, a place in the world. Separation would mean an end to this glorious continuum.
§ because our identity is rooted in the Ismaili Mustalian Dawoodi Bohra faith. And the seat of this faith - the Dawat - is now hijacked by a corrupt "royal family." Who knows the future Dais may be more amenable to our grievances. Separation would mean a fundamental disconnect from our faith.
§ because it is our moral and religious duty to carry on the struggle. Separation would mean abandonment of Islamic principles which urge us to fight for justice and dignity.
§ because separation would make nonsense of our past struggles and a mockery of our sufferings and sacrifices.
§ because separation is what the Bohra clergy wants. And we shall deny it that satisfaction.
One can think of many more reasons, but these are just a few that readily come to mind.
True, the Bohra clergy is very powerful and has arrogated the right to determine who is a Bohra and who is a munafiq. And that is the whole point of the reform movement: to take that right away from an unaccountable clergy that exercises an illegitimate and unchallenged control over us.
As we all know, the clergy has responded fiercely, and at times violently, to reformists' demands. They see us as spoil-sports bent upon wrecking their gravy train. And given the financial steam and political clout it runs on, reformist successes have been few and far between.
If anything, our numbers have actually dwindled. This is not very heartening. But let's not forget what we are up against. The clergy has maintained a powerful grip on the community through an elaborate system of control, manipulation, indoctrination, fear and religious mumbo jumbo. And it seems to be working, from the look of things. But scratch the surface and you will find a ground-swell of discontent. Even so, the majority of Bohras continue to remain in the orthodox fold. Why? Their motives are many and complex, but the chief among them has to do with convenience. It's more convenient to conform. Bohras temperamentally are meek and docile.
They know the consequences of sticking out their neck. And they don't. It doesn't have to be this way though. Human beings have an inherent urge to seek a system that's just and fair (be it religious, political or social). If Bohras had a choice, they would opt for a just and fair system. But this choice is not going to fall from the heavens. It never has.We'll have to create this choice.
Some of us, trapped in this impossible "Bohra situation", often confess that things will always remain the same; that people and their nature will never change. Or that the clergy is just too powerful; we cannot make a dent on them.
But let's take history as our guide. There was a time when it was all right to burn people at the stakes; it was all right to draw and quarter people; it was all right to conquer continents through war and genocide; it was all right to own slaves; it was acceptable to deny votes to women; it was normal to deny civil rights to blacks. These acts - mostly of dominant elites - were standard operating procedure of their times. But today our "human nature," enlightened by the values of our age, is appalled by such cruelty and oppression. This change is what progress is all about.
True, the world is still in a mess - a clear sign that we will always have to fight for justice and a life of dignity. With changing times, attitudes too change. And the attitude that today makes the Bohra clergy "acceptable" will change too. It's only a matter of time. But we'll have to fight for it. Abandoning the reformist cause will only postpone that change.
As for the clergy being too powerful, I've just this to say. Whatever happened to the Roman Empire, the British Raj and European conquest and colonialism? They are all "history" now, thanks to peoples' enduring hope and struggle for a better tomorrow.
In the larger scheme of things the Bohra clergy is a petty if vicious outfit. Our fight against it is part of the larger struggle for a just world. To paraphrase an old saying, revolution begins at home.
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
I was recently reading teh book written by Barrack Obama the recently elected senator who is an off-spring of a black father from Kenya and an American mother. There is a passage in there where somene asks "Why did the slaves not revolt and kill the whites?" It is an interesting question. But if you continue reading the book it becomes apparent that the slaves did not revolt because they had a basic fear of the "power" they were up against. Some slaves did jump into shark infested waters to escape but perished. Whenever you have a pawerful force there is always a patronage system that slowly comes into existence. We have seen sheiks and mullahs spawn in our community some of whom we know were or still are alcoholics and "marungi" eating individuals and some who I rememeber were duffers in madressa. Kothar is cognizant of its power base and has put around itself a circle of sycophants who jump when tehy see an Amil or one of those fair looking ladies they call Bhensahebs. People who do no work at their own home are seen to kiss the arses of amils and their wives and now the new thing is their children sit with them for salaam.
This system does not need a revolution. It will decay from the inside. When everyone does not get to feed at the trough you will see a big blow up. This will bring the power to an end. We saw that when Taizoon (kudoos to him) Bhaisaheb came out in the open and gave us a flavour of what is going on behind closed doors. Patience is a great virtue and all things come to an end.
This system does not need a revolution. It will decay from the inside. When everyone does not get to feed at the trough you will see a big blow up. This will bring the power to an end. We saw that when Taizoon (kudoos to him) Bhaisaheb came out in the open and gave us a flavour of what is going on behind closed doors. Patience is a great virtue and all things come to an end.
-
Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
slaves did not revolt because they had a basic fear of the "power" they were up against.
That analogy is not applicable here because one mistakenly assumes that all Bohras are aware that they are enslaved, which is simply not the case. Quite the contrary since most believe that they are rather privileged as Sheikh Mudar Ezzi obviously does as do most cult members. Revolt and progression comes from within when there is despair, not ecstasy as experienced by Orthodox Bohras.
Unfortunately, what Sheik Ezzi does get right is that Bohras and Muslims in general have a need for someone, anyone but themselves, to give them an identity, thereby absolving them of any personal accountability . Lack of personal accountability is a serious problem that Islam in general must overcome.
That analogy is not applicable here because one mistakenly assumes that all Bohras are aware that they are enslaved, which is simply not the case. Quite the contrary since most believe that they are rather privileged as Sheikh Mudar Ezzi obviously does as do most cult members. Revolt and progression comes from within when there is despair, not ecstasy as experienced by Orthodox Bohras.
Unfortunately, what Sheik Ezzi does get right is that Bohras and Muslims in general have a need for someone, anyone but themselves, to give them an identity, thereby absolving them of any personal accountability . Lack of personal accountability is a serious problem that Islam in general must overcome.
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
The point about personal accountability is well taken, but how does its lack become "a serious problem" for Islam to overcome. Are you implying that other major religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism etc. do not have problems with personal accountability? If not, can you explain why.
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Mumineen,
What Mr. Ajmeri asks to do is switch the ortho community beliefs into what HE FEELS the community should. A stance he has no authority to give.
He wants accountablity of the Dai...based on what right does he have to request this. It is not the role of the mustajib to dictate to the mualim what is correctly done or not done. If you can't trust the Dai or the Imam for that matter with something as material as money...why follow him?
He says the Dai should stick to religious issues. Firstly no Prophet, Imam or Dai ever just stuck to just religious issues because Islam is not just a religion, by a way of life. It effect every part of life. And so the comments and edicts of the leader (Imam or Dai) are binding regardless of theological or social.
He says we should have jamat democracy. Islam is not a democracy...and for shiahs it is a theocracy. If members of the jamat were in charge...the US wouldn't have 7 glorius masajids to pray in...they would still be in the run down markazs they been from the 1960's. If were up jamat democracy...half the bohras would have access to madarasahs facilities, jamat khannas, or have organized events like ramadhan, ashara, etc. Imagine a life with jamat democracy...how much do you think the sabil would be to facilitate a masjid per person. I guarantee you...majority of the people still wouldn't pay unless forced to by the council!
He says to give up barat and mithaq...both of which are practices established by the Quran.
Reform means to reshape and redefine what YOU feel is incorrect. The problem is YOU have little to support your objective than YOUR opinions of what is incorrect.
YOU call the Dai corrupt or "Bohra clergy is a petty if vicious outfit". What of your faith is left is you denounce the first part of it? You've already fundamentally disconnected from the community.
Maybe you should first establish a basis (other than WE THINK IT SHOULD BE) for beliefs/practice you disagree with and than promote that!!!
What Mr. Ajmeri asks to do is switch the ortho community beliefs into what HE FEELS the community should. A stance he has no authority to give.
He wants accountablity of the Dai...based on what right does he have to request this. It is not the role of the mustajib to dictate to the mualim what is correctly done or not done. If you can't trust the Dai or the Imam for that matter with something as material as money...why follow him?
He says the Dai should stick to religious issues. Firstly no Prophet, Imam or Dai ever just stuck to just religious issues because Islam is not just a religion, by a way of life. It effect every part of life. And so the comments and edicts of the leader (Imam or Dai) are binding regardless of theological or social.
He says we should have jamat democracy. Islam is not a democracy...and for shiahs it is a theocracy. If members of the jamat were in charge...the US wouldn't have 7 glorius masajids to pray in...they would still be in the run down markazs they been from the 1960's. If were up jamat democracy...half the bohras would have access to madarasahs facilities, jamat khannas, or have organized events like ramadhan, ashara, etc. Imagine a life with jamat democracy...how much do you think the sabil would be to facilitate a masjid per person. I guarantee you...majority of the people still wouldn't pay unless forced to by the council!
He says to give up barat and mithaq...both of which are practices established by the Quran.
Reform means to reshape and redefine what YOU feel is incorrect. The problem is YOU have little to support your objective than YOUR opinions of what is incorrect.
YOU call the Dai corrupt or "Bohra clergy is a petty if vicious outfit". What of your faith is left is you denounce the first part of it? You've already fundamentally disconnected from the community.
Maybe you should first establish a basis (other than WE THINK IT SHOULD BE) for beliefs/practice you disagree with and than promote that!!!
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Correction to my last post. I wrote:
"If were up jamat democracy...half the bohras would have access to madarasahs facilities, jamat khannas, or have organized events like ramadhan, ashara, etc."
it should read:
"If were up jamat democracy...half the bohras would NOT have access to madarasahs facilities, jamat khannas, or have organized events like ramadhan, ashara, etc."
"If were up jamat democracy...half the bohras would have access to madarasahs facilities, jamat khannas, or have organized events like ramadhan, ashara, etc."
it should read:
"If were up jamat democracy...half the bohras would NOT have access to madarasahs facilities, jamat khannas, or have organized events like ramadhan, ashara, etc."
-
Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Humsafar,
Since you accept the importance of accountability, I am at a loss for words in determining when the lack of it would not be a serious problem. Perhaps you can cite some examples of when it is not. You have correctly and eloquently pointed out in a previous thread how the term “jihad” is often misused in Islam and how Muslims “tar everything they do with a religious brush”. This may be the best example of "a serious problem" as it is used to justify disproportionate force and targeted murder of innocents as the solution for just about any grievance.
Just as you noted, I too have not observed this in other religions that I am familiar with. My assumption is that this is the result of Islam being touted and accepted as an all encompassing religion and as a way of life complete in its specificity down to mundane everyday chores not limited to cleansing, diet, pets, etc. This makes it almost too easy to claim a religious justification for all acts, without regard to common sense or a moral compass.
Since you accept the importance of accountability, I am at a loss for words in determining when the lack of it would not be a serious problem. Perhaps you can cite some examples of when it is not. You have correctly and eloquently pointed out in a previous thread how the term “jihad” is often misused in Islam and how Muslims “tar everything they do with a religious brush”. This may be the best example of "a serious problem" as it is used to justify disproportionate force and targeted murder of innocents as the solution for just about any grievance.
Just as you noted, I too have not observed this in other religions that I am familiar with. My assumption is that this is the result of Islam being touted and accepted as an all encompassing religion and as a way of life complete in its specificity down to mundane everyday chores not limited to cleansing, diet, pets, etc. This makes it almost too easy to claim a religious justification for all acts, without regard to common sense or a moral compass.
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Hur:
Let us correct your erroneous misconceptions caused by the brainwashing of the Kotharis.
There was a full democracy of Jamaats in East Africa before Muqaddas Moula Syedna Taher Saifuddin visited in 1963.
There were democratic and autonomous Bohri Constitutions all over Kenya, Tanganyika, Uganda and Zanzibar. There were elected Jamaats committees and office bearers - the Aamil being an ex-officio member and a figure-head chiarman of the Jamaat council. He was only concerned with the religious ceremonies - such as leading prayers, misaqs, performing marriages, attending funerals. He never interfered with the day to day running of the Jamaat affairs. He never conferred with Kothar in Bombay (Mumbai). The Jamaat workers were all unapid volunteers. Raza was always given by the Jamat's elected Valiul Amar.
The Jamaat Council ran the affairs so effectively and efficiently that the only voluntary collections collected needed were the minimal Sila Fitra only - nota even Sabils to maintain the mosques. After their death, the rich Bohris used to leave their properties to the Jammat under wakaf (trust)in their wills, willingly and all incomes from these properties were used only for the welfare and education of the community locally and the upkeep of the local Aamil - no moneys went to Kothar and all accounts were audited and presented to the General Body at each year's Annual General Meeting. There was unity and tranquililty among all the local communities.
Then when Syedna Taher Saifuddin arrived (the first ever Dai to arrive in East Africa), his greedy Princes saw how rich the community was. They at once cancelled all the democratic constitutions throughout East Africa. They ordered all the properties to be transferred to Dawat-e-Hadiya (translation - in Syedna's personal name).
They then nominated their own "thugs" to the Jamat Committee and made them Mullas and Sheikhs and gave them exorbitant salaries to run the Jamat affairs.
Only the Uganda Bohris refused to get their constitution cancelled or transfer their properties to Syedna. Some of the enlightened Bohris in Kenya, Tanganyika and Zanzibar also praotested vehemently. The whole Uganda Jamat (except 3 families) and the enlightened few in other countries were ex-communicated. Baraat was born in East Africa - and the rest as they say is history.
The newly independent African governments of Kenya, Tanaganyika, Zanzibar and Uganda tried to put a status-quo back, but Kothar and their sycophants, with the ill-gotten gains from the recently confiscated properties bribed the corrupted African politicians and bureacrats. After all the Bohris left Uganda due to Idi Amin Dada's notrious dream and expulsion of all Asians, the Bohris there donated all the Bohris properties to the African Muslim Communities of Uganda.
So Hur, please verify your facts before you blurt out lies and misinformation like a broken record.
Let us correct your erroneous misconceptions caused by the brainwashing of the Kotharis.
There was a full democracy of Jamaats in East Africa before Muqaddas Moula Syedna Taher Saifuddin visited in 1963.
There were democratic and autonomous Bohri Constitutions all over Kenya, Tanganyika, Uganda and Zanzibar. There were elected Jamaats committees and office bearers - the Aamil being an ex-officio member and a figure-head chiarman of the Jamaat council. He was only concerned with the religious ceremonies - such as leading prayers, misaqs, performing marriages, attending funerals. He never interfered with the day to day running of the Jamaat affairs. He never conferred with Kothar in Bombay (Mumbai). The Jamaat workers were all unapid volunteers. Raza was always given by the Jamat's elected Valiul Amar.
The Jamaat Council ran the affairs so effectively and efficiently that the only voluntary collections collected needed were the minimal Sila Fitra only - nota even Sabils to maintain the mosques. After their death, the rich Bohris used to leave their properties to the Jammat under wakaf (trust)in their wills, willingly and all incomes from these properties were used only for the welfare and education of the community locally and the upkeep of the local Aamil - no moneys went to Kothar and all accounts were audited and presented to the General Body at each year's Annual General Meeting. There was unity and tranquililty among all the local communities.
Then when Syedna Taher Saifuddin arrived (the first ever Dai to arrive in East Africa), his greedy Princes saw how rich the community was. They at once cancelled all the democratic constitutions throughout East Africa. They ordered all the properties to be transferred to Dawat-e-Hadiya (translation - in Syedna's personal name).
They then nominated their own "thugs" to the Jamat Committee and made them Mullas and Sheikhs and gave them exorbitant salaries to run the Jamat affairs.
Only the Uganda Bohris refused to get their constitution cancelled or transfer their properties to Syedna. Some of the enlightened Bohris in Kenya, Tanganyika and Zanzibar also praotested vehemently. The whole Uganda Jamat (except 3 families) and the enlightened few in other countries were ex-communicated. Baraat was born in East Africa - and the rest as they say is history.
The newly independent African governments of Kenya, Tanaganyika, Zanzibar and Uganda tried to put a status-quo back, but Kothar and their sycophants, with the ill-gotten gains from the recently confiscated properties bribed the corrupted African politicians and bureacrats. After all the Bohris left Uganda due to Idi Amin Dada's notrious dream and expulsion of all Asians, the Bohris there donated all the Bohris properties to the African Muslim Communities of Uganda.
So Hur, please verify your facts before you blurt out lies and misinformation like a broken record.
-
khan19922001
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Dear Hur
What is your version of the facts presented by Brother Mumineen?
I won't be totally surprised if you bring in some batini explanation.
To all brothers on the forum
What is the purpose of arguing with Kothari brain washed Bohra's on basic issues of sajda, zakat, ziafat etc. I was born in a Bohri family and for 40 years followed the Bohri beliefs without really understanding what I was doing.
I have now cut myself with the Bohri clan. It was not as difficult as I had thought initially. I have stopped going to the Bohri masjids, or paying them wajebat etc etc. Although I have not made open declarations most of my Bohri friends know this and call me "total mian bhai" behind my back. So what happens, I really don't care if I am buried in a Bohri graveyard or my kids get married to Bohri etc. Infact I don't want my kids to marry within the Bohra clan or else my whole efforts of pulling out will be wasted.
It was not difficult to pull out as my parents are dead, brother and sister are in the States and they don't care about the Bohri's etc. My wife's family is aware but so far they have not made any formal objections etc.
I am not totally comfortable with my religios beliefs. The lesson I have learnt is that the Bohri's don't care so long as you don't go around criticising their beloved Aqa Moula.
Regards
What is your version of the facts presented by Brother Mumineen?
I won't be totally surprised if you bring in some batini explanation.
To all brothers on the forum
What is the purpose of arguing with Kothari brain washed Bohra's on basic issues of sajda, zakat, ziafat etc. I was born in a Bohri family and for 40 years followed the Bohri beliefs without really understanding what I was doing.
I have now cut myself with the Bohri clan. It was not as difficult as I had thought initially. I have stopped going to the Bohri masjids, or paying them wajebat etc etc. Although I have not made open declarations most of my Bohri friends know this and call me "total mian bhai" behind my back. So what happens, I really don't care if I am buried in a Bohri graveyard or my kids get married to Bohri etc. Infact I don't want my kids to marry within the Bohra clan or else my whole efforts of pulling out will be wasted.
It was not difficult to pull out as my parents are dead, brother and sister are in the States and they don't care about the Bohri's etc. My wife's family is aware but so far they have not made any formal objections etc.
I am not totally comfortable with my religios beliefs. The lesson I have learnt is that the Bohri's don't care so long as you don't go around criticising their beloved Aqa Moula.
Regards
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
AB,
Perhaps I was not clear in my post. What I want to know is why do you single out Islam as burdened with a lack of personal accountability and not other religions or cults, for that matter. Surely, this deficiency is not unique to Islam. Further, you have to clarify what you mean by a "lack of personal accountability". If you take it mean a tendency to seek identity in extraneous things and beliefs etc. then, in my view, this is a general human malaise - more to do with existential matters than to any one particular religion or culture.
A lack of meaning and purpose in life is at the core of the human condition. People will do anything to fill up this existential emptiness - join religions or motorcycle clubs or whatever so long as they feel they are doing something worthwhile. Even so, it doesn't follow from this that sensible people stop being responsible for their actions. Transferring responsibility to one's faith or beliefs is a trait of extremists. Islamic extremists are as guilty of this as Christian, Hindu, Scientologist and Jewish etc. My point is, it is not fair to single out Islam or its practitioners for lack of "personal accountability".
I'm sorry this line of thought is off-topic for this thread but I simply had to pursue it.
Perhaps I was not clear in my post. What I want to know is why do you single out Islam as burdened with a lack of personal accountability and not other religions or cults, for that matter. Surely, this deficiency is not unique to Islam. Further, you have to clarify what you mean by a "lack of personal accountability". If you take it mean a tendency to seek identity in extraneous things and beliefs etc. then, in my view, this is a general human malaise - more to do with existential matters than to any one particular religion or culture.
A lack of meaning and purpose in life is at the core of the human condition. People will do anything to fill up this existential emptiness - join religions or motorcycle clubs or whatever so long as they feel they are doing something worthwhile. Even so, it doesn't follow from this that sensible people stop being responsible for their actions. Transferring responsibility to one's faith or beliefs is a trait of extremists. Islamic extremists are as guilty of this as Christian, Hindu, Scientologist and Jewish etc. My point is, it is not fair to single out Islam or its practitioners for lack of "personal accountability".
I'm sorry this line of thought is off-topic for this thread but I simply had to pursue it.
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Dear Mumineen and Khan,
I was one of those families in Uganda and know exactly what happened in Kampala and Entebbe. Do not school me on things you have just heard of.
It is by this "monolopization" as you call it that brought all the jamats under one unified front..instead of a bunch of rag tag groups, serving their own methods and ideas of how things are done.
The vast majority of those that revolted against the Dai's wishes are now some of Kothar's strongest supports. The Kenyan community is probably the strongest supporters of the Dai and implentation of the edicts in the world (whether you consider that a good thing or not).
And some of things you pointed out are exactly what was wrong in Africa. Sila fitra (ie zakat ul'fitr) was considered voluntary...when for a muslim it is required or it is considered a sin against the person and his family.
"There were democratic and autonomous Bohri Constitutions all over Kenya, Tanganyika, Uganda and Zanzibar."
--This is the point, each jamat did whatever they wanted and they thought of...whether it was truly islamic or not.
"He was only concerned with the religious ceremonies - such as leading prayers, misaqs, performing marriages, attending funerals. He never interfered with the day to day running of the Jamaat affairs. He never conferred with Kothar in Bombay (Mumbai). The Jamaat workers were all unapid volunteers. Raza was always given by the Jamat's elected Valiul Amar."
--And again this was exactly the problem. The amil...whether knowledgable about fiqh or not just took care of the daily rituals....not instructing if what was being done by the jamat was inline with the Fatimi fiqh or usul. Remember, Islam effect every aspect of life..from how you go to the bathroom to what you spend your money on.
Funny, you say "raza was always given..". I thought the concept of raza was unislamic according to reformists?! In addition, why would the wali mullah not give raza ALWAYS!!! If the guys want to keep his job...what interest does he have to deny raza??!!!
And to say that there was unity is just hog wash. The jamats in various countries of Africa didn't support other jamats in any ways. Each one supported and fended for themselves.
And just a thought, if everything of the jamat is kept locally...supposedly only those that can afford a functioning jamat can have one. Correct?
It's like public education in the US. Every official city in the US must have public schools of some kind provided solely by the state by law, whether the city could afford it or not. This ensures all members of the society have access to schools (rich or poor), which the US consider a public right. The entire state's community funds for all schools in the state..not just the one's in their communities. This is democracy..the government collects from every their due share and distributes for the whole of the society.
In YOUR jamat democracy, only communities that can afford a madarasah, jamat khana, markaz or masjid can have one. Every other community is left to their own to fend. This was exactly the case in Africa.
This is exactly the reason minimal funds were collected in Africa...the communities were wealthy and educated there. This is and was not the case for India, Pakistan, Yemen, etc. These communities cannot afford there own markazs or madarasahs...so other communities through the kothar help the poor communities.
SORRY NO BATIN...JUST THE FACTS. Something the Reformist have always skimmed over.
I was one of those families in Uganda and know exactly what happened in Kampala and Entebbe. Do not school me on things you have just heard of.
It is by this "monolopization" as you call it that brought all the jamats under one unified front..instead of a bunch of rag tag groups, serving their own methods and ideas of how things are done.
The vast majority of those that revolted against the Dai's wishes are now some of Kothar's strongest supports. The Kenyan community is probably the strongest supporters of the Dai and implentation of the edicts in the world (whether you consider that a good thing or not).
And some of things you pointed out are exactly what was wrong in Africa. Sila fitra (ie zakat ul'fitr) was considered voluntary...when for a muslim it is required or it is considered a sin against the person and his family.
"There were democratic and autonomous Bohri Constitutions all over Kenya, Tanganyika, Uganda and Zanzibar."
--This is the point, each jamat did whatever they wanted and they thought of...whether it was truly islamic or not.
"He was only concerned with the religious ceremonies - such as leading prayers, misaqs, performing marriages, attending funerals. He never interfered with the day to day running of the Jamaat affairs. He never conferred with Kothar in Bombay (Mumbai). The Jamaat workers were all unapid volunteers. Raza was always given by the Jamat's elected Valiul Amar."
--And again this was exactly the problem. The amil...whether knowledgable about fiqh or not just took care of the daily rituals....not instructing if what was being done by the jamat was inline with the Fatimi fiqh or usul. Remember, Islam effect every aspect of life..from how you go to the bathroom to what you spend your money on.
Funny, you say "raza was always given..". I thought the concept of raza was unislamic according to reformists?! In addition, why would the wali mullah not give raza ALWAYS!!! If the guys want to keep his job...what interest does he have to deny raza??!!!
And to say that there was unity is just hog wash. The jamats in various countries of Africa didn't support other jamats in any ways. Each one supported and fended for themselves.
And just a thought, if everything of the jamat is kept locally...supposedly only those that can afford a functioning jamat can have one. Correct?
It's like public education in the US. Every official city in the US must have public schools of some kind provided solely by the state by law, whether the city could afford it or not. This ensures all members of the society have access to schools (rich or poor), which the US consider a public right. The entire state's community funds for all schools in the state..not just the one's in their communities. This is democracy..the government collects from every their due share and distributes for the whole of the society.
In YOUR jamat democracy, only communities that can afford a madarasah, jamat khana, markaz or masjid can have one. Every other community is left to their own to fend. This was exactly the case in Africa.
This is exactly the reason minimal funds were collected in Africa...the communities were wealthy and educated there. This is and was not the case for India, Pakistan, Yemen, etc. These communities cannot afford there own markazs or madarasahs...so other communities through the kothar help the poor communities.
SORRY NO BATIN...JUST THE FACTS. Something the Reformist have always skimmed over.
-
Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Humsafar,
I single out Islam because when one questions the fact the Islam has made no contribution to science or society in the last 100 years, absence of Islamic democracies, illiteracy, Muslim-on-Muslim violence, and a myriad of other issues, the discussion inevitably leads to Israel, Palestine and the United States; some external, often unrelated cause is always to blame and happens to shape their future and destiny. The Jews, Christians and Hindus have not let past atrocities stand in the way of progress.
People join motorcycle clubs because they like motorcycles! Its relevance here is beyond me.
I single out Islam because when one questions the fact the Islam has made no contribution to science or society in the last 100 years, absence of Islamic democracies, illiteracy, Muslim-on-Muslim violence, and a myriad of other issues, the discussion inevitably leads to Israel, Palestine and the United States; some external, often unrelated cause is always to blame and happens to shape their future and destiny. The Jews, Christians and Hindus have not let past atrocities stand in the way of progress.
People join motorcycle clubs because they like motorcycles! Its relevance here is beyond me.
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
AB,
I don't think it is a good idea to judge people and their contributions on the basis of their religion. Every society goes through a phase - it's rise and fall and renaissance. The Greeks made major contributions to science and philosophy at one time but what have they done for the last 2000 years? Islam too had its era of glory and fantastic achievements. So did the Romans, Christians etc. But to view today's complex and interdependent world through a filter of religion is, at best, myopic (and to fall into Huntington's silly trap of "clash of civilisation").
Even if we stick to your arbitrary categories (religion) and timeframe ("last 100 years"), let's see what Christians and Jews have achieved: two world wars, massacre, conquest, colonialism, holocaust, economic and cultural domination, environmental destruction led by a rampant, uncontrolled market economy, military-industrial complex, apartheid, occupation etc. etc. Any positive contribution is offset by the preponderance of negatives they have unleashed on the world.
Funny that you blame Islam for blaming the past for their current plight, but forget the Jews. Without wishing to take away from their suffering, it is fair to say that they have turned holocaust into a multi-million dollar industry and monopolised victimhood as if their suffering is supreme over everyone else's.
This is not to say that I condone all that is wrong with Islam (see my previous posts). But to say that it alone has a responsibility to overcome "lack of personal accountability" is simplistic and disingenuous. For every "Islamic ill" there exists an equivalent "Christian ill" "Jewish ill" etc. (Although I do not accept these constructs as valid, yet for argument's sake one can work with it.) There's no more a "Christian atom bomb" than there is an "Islamic autocracy".
As for motorcycle clubs - it was used as a metaphor to illustrate that people would join any organisation (religion, bike clubs etc.) to find meaning and purpose in life.
I don't think it is a good idea to judge people and their contributions on the basis of their religion. Every society goes through a phase - it's rise and fall and renaissance. The Greeks made major contributions to science and philosophy at one time but what have they done for the last 2000 years? Islam too had its era of glory and fantastic achievements. So did the Romans, Christians etc. But to view today's complex and interdependent world through a filter of religion is, at best, myopic (and to fall into Huntington's silly trap of "clash of civilisation").
Even if we stick to your arbitrary categories (religion) and timeframe ("last 100 years"), let's see what Christians and Jews have achieved: two world wars, massacre, conquest, colonialism, holocaust, economic and cultural domination, environmental destruction led by a rampant, uncontrolled market economy, military-industrial complex, apartheid, occupation etc. etc. Any positive contribution is offset by the preponderance of negatives they have unleashed on the world.
Funny that you blame Islam for blaming the past for their current plight, but forget the Jews. Without wishing to take away from their suffering, it is fair to say that they have turned holocaust into a multi-million dollar industry and monopolised victimhood as if their suffering is supreme over everyone else's.
This is not to say that I condone all that is wrong with Islam (see my previous posts). But to say that it alone has a responsibility to overcome "lack of personal accountability" is simplistic and disingenuous. For every "Islamic ill" there exists an equivalent "Christian ill" "Jewish ill" etc. (Although I do not accept these constructs as valid, yet for argument's sake one can work with it.) There's no more a "Christian atom bomb" than there is an "Islamic autocracy".
As for motorcycle clubs - it was used as a metaphor to illustrate that people would join any organisation (religion, bike clubs etc.) to find meaning and purpose in life.
-
Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
You just illustrated my point for me. The discussion inevitably moved to Christians, Jews and the West.
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Hur:
We don't want liers on this site. You are not a Bohra, yet you claim that " I was one of those families in Uganda and know exactly what happened in Kampala and Entebbe. Do not school me on things you have just heard of."
As a non-Bohra how do you know of all the schisms which went on. If at all, it was all heresay. There were only three families in Uganda which were NOT "barrated".
Get of this website if you want to create mischief. And kindly change your pseudo-name
"Hur" as it is a sacrilege using this name of an illustrious martyr from the Karbala Massacre.
We don't want liers on this site. You are not a Bohra, yet you claim that " I was one of those families in Uganda and know exactly what happened in Kampala and Entebbe. Do not school me on things you have just heard of."
As a non-Bohra how do you know of all the schisms which went on. If at all, it was all heresay. There were only three families in Uganda which were NOT "barrated".
Get of this website if you want to create mischief. And kindly change your pseudo-name
"Hur" as it is a sacrilege using this name of an illustrious martyr from the Karbala Massacre.
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
AB,
You are avoiding the issue. My question is simple: why should Islam alone bear the burden of overcoming the "lack of personal accountability", and not others?
You are avoiding the issue. My question is simple: why should Islam alone bear the burden of overcoming the "lack of personal accountability", and not others?
-
Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Humsafar,
Please re-read my previous 2 posts. If you disagree, please provide examples of other religions depicting what I have previously described and defined to be a problem.
Regards,
-AB
Please re-read my previous 2 posts. If you disagree, please provide examples of other religions depicting what I have previously described and defined to be a problem.
Regards,
-AB
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Average Moron,
If Islam/Muslims hadn't achieved anything in the last 100 years, they would not have been such a threat to your Christian, jewish and western masters.
And as far as inventions are concerned (which you are obsessed with), who gives a crap if they haven't invented anything. They have the money to buy what the others have invented so why give a f..k.
If Islam/Muslims hadn't achieved anything in the last 100 years, they would not have been such a threat to your Christian, jewish and western masters.
And as far as inventions are concerned (which you are obsessed with), who gives a crap if they haven't invented anything. They have the money to buy what the others have invented so why give a f..k.
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Fallujah To Be A virtual concentration camp
Of course I do not wish to blame America for something that they have done!!
Of course I do not wish to blame America for something that they have done!!
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Israeli banks profit from Holocaust
But please do not blame Israel for doing something that they have done!!
But please do not blame Israel for doing something that they have done!!
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Feith to 'Post': US action against Iran can't be ruled out
I hope the Iranians learn from Saddam. The poor guy kept saying that he did not have any weapons and still he and his people got screwed. The best way to prevent an American led invasion is apparently not to disable your nuclear ambitions but to achieve them as soon as possible.
But of course I wouldn't want to blame America for doing something that they have done or plan to do.
I hope the Iranians learn from Saddam. The poor guy kept saying that he did not have any weapons and still he and his people got screwed. The best way to prevent an American led invasion is apparently not to disable your nuclear ambitions but to achieve them as soon as possible.
But of course I wouldn't want to blame America for doing something that they have done or plan to do.
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Arab leaders rebuke U.S. policy toward Israel
"Let us face it ... the real bone of contention is the longest conflict in modern history. For too long, the Arabs have witnessed the Western bias toward Israel," Prince Saud al-Faisal, the Saudi foreign minister, told a U.S.-sponsored conference here on political and economic reform.
anajmi to prince Saud al-Faisal - "And what the f..k have you or your government done about it?"
"Let us face it ... the real bone of contention is the longest conflict in modern history. For too long, the Arabs have witnessed the Western bias toward Israel," Prince Saud al-Faisal, the Saudi foreign minister, told a U.S.-sponsored conference here on political and economic reform.
anajmi to prince Saud al-Faisal - "And what the f..k have you or your government done about it?"
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
i have been reading the post and frankly i am still sitting on the fence. (and i ask God to help me never take sides)
But due credit must be given to Hur. He has raised a few though provoking points. Points that are very valid.
I agree that democracy cannot work to expand any religion/organisation/corporation. Islam is a very very young religion. And I feel that every religion should be given its time to evolve. And evolve it must, or perish. And thankfully Islam has evolved. I see it all around me. (call me an optimist)
A couple of thoughts:
1. I personally think we need someone like the syedna (at least for the time being). Without doubt he has developed an aura about himself. Even if its all about money, honey. The reformists may have scholars but they lack leaders with clout and charisma. And that only comes with a certain degree of authoritarianism. We are too young a religion to introduce democracy. People who have read the book "Future of Freedom" will know what I am talking. As adherants of a religion trying grasp its past & present we are still too muddled up to think of our future. So for now we should maintain status quo. We need something or someone to hang on to. No matter what anyone says - WE ARE FACING AN IDENTITY CRISIS!. And I think thats fine.
2. Now, having said that there is no doubt in my mind that as many bohris are distancing themselves from the Syedna just as an equal number are getting drawn by his aura. There are various factors and the primary among them is our illiterate women. (Somehow the massacre of Kerbala strikes a chord with women, i have noticed)
The kothar is top heavy. Every organization begins that way. Splinters form and then the balance becomes more distributed. And things move from a hierarchical distribution to a more a networked distribution. This is a cycle that will keep repeating. The actions of the Kothar will only speed it up. Do i foresee reform in the Bohra theocracy. A big Nopes! Reformists will never fulfill their dream of complete accountability till the time freaks like Hur exist. Sorry Hur, but the strong individual I am your statement "It is not the role of the mustajib to dictate to the mualim what is correctly done or not done." makes me wanna throw up! Reformists will eventually have to separate out. I see no other way. Maybe not this in this generation. These & other transitions can be made less painful if kothar does not try and re-live the fatimid glory. Or try and split off too obviously from mainstream islam (or even the Shiite doctrine). Otherwise things can go sideways very quickly. already we hear talks of succession and regardless of the outcome in the political bloodbath that will follow the kothar will have to become more accomodating. Centralized authority has never worked. Right from ancient rome/egypt, the vatican or the Soviet union. It may create a few wonders of the world but eventually it implodes. Hope someone learns something from history
But due credit must be given to Hur. He has raised a few though provoking points. Points that are very valid.
I agree that democracy cannot work to expand any religion/organisation/corporation. Islam is a very very young religion. And I feel that every religion should be given its time to evolve. And evolve it must, or perish. And thankfully Islam has evolved. I see it all around me. (call me an optimist)
A couple of thoughts:
1. I personally think we need someone like the syedna (at least for the time being). Without doubt he has developed an aura about himself. Even if its all about money, honey. The reformists may have scholars but they lack leaders with clout and charisma. And that only comes with a certain degree of authoritarianism. We are too young a religion to introduce democracy. People who have read the book "Future of Freedom" will know what I am talking. As adherants of a religion trying grasp its past & present we are still too muddled up to think of our future. So for now we should maintain status quo. We need something or someone to hang on to. No matter what anyone says - WE ARE FACING AN IDENTITY CRISIS!. And I think thats fine.
2. Now, having said that there is no doubt in my mind that as many bohris are distancing themselves from the Syedna just as an equal number are getting drawn by his aura. There are various factors and the primary among them is our illiterate women. (Somehow the massacre of Kerbala strikes a chord with women, i have noticed)
The kothar is top heavy. Every organization begins that way. Splinters form and then the balance becomes more distributed. And things move from a hierarchical distribution to a more a networked distribution. This is a cycle that will keep repeating. The actions of the Kothar will only speed it up. Do i foresee reform in the Bohra theocracy. A big Nopes! Reformists will never fulfill their dream of complete accountability till the time freaks like Hur exist. Sorry Hur, but the strong individual I am your statement "It is not the role of the mustajib to dictate to the mualim what is correctly done or not done." makes me wanna throw up! Reformists will eventually have to separate out. I see no other way. Maybe not this in this generation. These & other transitions can be made less painful if kothar does not try and re-live the fatimid glory. Or try and split off too obviously from mainstream islam (or even the Shiite doctrine). Otherwise things can go sideways very quickly. already we hear talks of succession and regardless of the outcome in the political bloodbath that will follow the kothar will have to become more accomodating. Centralized authority has never worked. Right from ancient rome/egypt, the vatican or the Soviet union. It may create a few wonders of the world but eventually it implodes. Hope someone learns something from history
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
AB,
All you have done so far is hedged, fudged and eluded the basic issue that you brought up: "Islam’s need to overcome its lack of personal accountability". My question is why other religions /ideologies shouldn’t be required to do the same.
Here are examples of actions committed in the name of religion/ideology, and which in your book amounts to a lack of personal accountability:
Christianity: Crusades, colonialism as "civilising mission", Spanish inquisition, Ku Klux Klan, the Christian right and its anti-abortion, anti-science, anti-evolution campaigns, it's militias and Oklahoma bombing, apartheid, missionary work to spread the word of god, Catholic church's anti-Semitic role etc. etc.
Judaism: Zionism, claim as the chosen people, occupation of Palestine as "god given" right, murder and assassination of civilian as state policy (which even autocratic Arab regimes have never done)
Hinduism: strident Hindu nationalism leading to murder and massacre of minorities (Muslim, Christians and Sikhs)
Communism: state control, lack of liberty and freedom, torture and persecution of dissidents
Capitalism: appalling social and economic inequality, profit/money as supreme deity, freedom of the rich to destroy environment, poor communities/ nations, crass consumerism
These religions/ideologies are also guilty of countless atrocities (I’ve only mentioned those that readily come to mind). Now answer the question: why should they be exempt from "overcoming their lack of personal accountability"?
All you have done so far is hedged, fudged and eluded the basic issue that you brought up: "Islam’s need to overcome its lack of personal accountability". My question is why other religions /ideologies shouldn’t be required to do the same.
Here are examples of actions committed in the name of religion/ideology, and which in your book amounts to a lack of personal accountability:
Christianity: Crusades, colonialism as "civilising mission", Spanish inquisition, Ku Klux Klan, the Christian right and its anti-abortion, anti-science, anti-evolution campaigns, it's militias and Oklahoma bombing, apartheid, missionary work to spread the word of god, Catholic church's anti-Semitic role etc. etc.
Judaism: Zionism, claim as the chosen people, occupation of Palestine as "god given" right, murder and assassination of civilian as state policy (which even autocratic Arab regimes have never done)
Hinduism: strident Hindu nationalism leading to murder and massacre of minorities (Muslim, Christians and Sikhs)
Communism: state control, lack of liberty and freedom, torture and persecution of dissidents
Capitalism: appalling social and economic inequality, profit/money as supreme deity, freedom of the rich to destroy environment, poor communities/ nations, crass consumerism
These religions/ideologies are also guilty of countless atrocities (I’ve only mentioned those that readily come to mind). Now answer the question: why should they be exempt from "overcoming their lack of personal accountability"?
Re: Checkered Mosaic with checkerd past and checkered future
Dear Mumineen,
Firstly, I have from my first on this site stated I was a shiah and not specifically a bohra. My belief as a shiah as very very similar to the bohras. And all my life, I have associated very closely with both bohras and ismailis. Africawalla knew...why didn't you. Also...DID I SAY ANYTHING THAT WAS INCORRECT.
If you knew anything about Uganda, you'd know that Ismaili, Ithna Asharis, and Bohras lived and associated very closely. And to say the entire community but three families was barated is another lie. I know personally five that were not. Most of the families I still associate with closely are in the US..living in the New York, Illinois, Wisconsin, California, and Texas. All of the ones I knew that were barated went back to fold.
If you knew anything about Uganda, you'd know that all Indians, regardless of sect of muslim, were exiled slowly from there by Idi Amin from 1970-1973. Majority of us settled in those particular states..larger collection in New York and Illinois.
Like I told you, I actually attend their majalis in ashara and ramadhan. And here's a concept, I actually associate with them enough to know. Maybe as a so called bohras...you should do the same before talking about them.
Firstly, I have from my first on this site stated I was a shiah and not specifically a bohra. My belief as a shiah as very very similar to the bohras. And all my life, I have associated very closely with both bohras and ismailis. Africawalla knew...why didn't you. Also...DID I SAY ANYTHING THAT WAS INCORRECT.
If you knew anything about Uganda, you'd know that Ismaili, Ithna Asharis, and Bohras lived and associated very closely. And to say the entire community but three families was barated is another lie. I know personally five that were not. Most of the families I still associate with closely are in the US..living in the New York, Illinois, Wisconsin, California, and Texas. All of the ones I knew that were barated went back to fold.
If you knew anything about Uganda, you'd know that all Indians, regardless of sect of muslim, were exiled slowly from there by Idi Amin from 1970-1973. Majority of us settled in those particular states..larger collection in New York and Illinois.
Like I told you, I actually attend their majalis in ashara and ramadhan. And here's a concept, I actually associate with them enough to know. Maybe as a so called bohras...you should do the same before talking about them.