Post to Admin

[Africawala0000]

Dear Admin,

I have been on this board for sometime, and I am amazed at the kind of posts you allow through. I understand that you cannot monitor as the posts come, but you can stop them by canceling the accounts instead of smooching the Bullies, that they make contribution on this board. These Bullies are the ones who bring out the worst amongst people, that is their only contribution. This should not be your aim, neither is this good contribution. This kind of behavior is a poor reflection of the group you are leading. I am sure if your Board was “cleanâ€

[anajmi]

Africawala

In a previous post you said

Cry, my poor children

Looks like you are the only one crying over here. Did it hurt that bad? oooohh, puchy, puchy, puchy, baby. Don't cry, daddy'll give you a candy!!

[seeker110]

Br. Africawala Thanks for your advise,I will take you up on it.I will check out the sites.I am sorry that bad things are said abuot your Imam.I myself respect Agha Khan and hope MY Dai will learn from him.
Agha Khan won my heart, after I found out he helped my country in infancy,and after the war with India.During the last earth quake in Pakistan.
As far as this site goes,I like some people that I admire and respect.I like the writings of INSAF,Actty and many others who make things easy with style and knowledge.
Some are stuck in the 11th centuary and before.They back each other by being quite and keep druming the same mantra.Life is not a bowl of cheeries,I have always tried to behave the way my parents and teachers taught me.Maybe these folks have had poor teachers and parents.Or maybe the just suffer from some mental disease.May god help them.
Remember ,if somebody is jealous of your Imam means he doesnt have one as good.Why would he spend time on this site.Its obviously not a wahabi site.I dont mind him coming here,maybe they (Wahabi Brothers) have nothing to talk about.After all there is so little about their belief.Imagine what have two Wahabi Brothers have to discus, its all written in stone for them.
To you my brother"Ya Ali Madad"

[Africawala0000]

Dear brother Seeker,

Thanks for your kind words and respectful words for my Imam. I wish you success in your search for answers to your questions. Your posts show you are a refined person and not some raw stuff we have seen on this Board. Salaams.

[anajmi]

Yeah, nice people, people who go against the quran and sunnah, people who think doing wudhu and praying is a waste of time and would instead prefer to go to the beach are refined people.

Need I say more about the Ismaili view point?

Salaams

[Admin]

Dear Africawala,

Thank you for your post. First of all let us clarify that we're not "leading" any group here. All we are doing is providing a forum for discussion and debate primarily on Bohra issues but also on Islam in general. Sometimes this debate is good and at other times no so. This is to be expected in a free public forum, it attracts all kinds of people from differing background, views, experiences and opinions. Some express their views more aggressively than others. Some tend to use anger rather than reason.

We've always appealed to the maturity and sense of decency of participants to state their case without anger and emotion. Most of them understand and respect that. Some don't, but we hope they will, eventually. Just because of these few individuals you cannot condemn and denounce the whole board and its members. We don't think that's fair.

If you think somebody is being a "bully" the best way to deal with him is to ignore him. Why don't you adopt the same attitude that you're commending Br. Seeker for?

Also please understand that discussion under any given topic always tends to veer off into different directions, it is not possible for us to control that. At times, we agree, there's excessive focus on Islamilis and when it gets out of hand we do close that topic.

We do value your participation on this board, as we do of all the others, and encourage you to continue contributing to the discussion.

Lastly, we once again appeal to all of you to keep your language within the bounds of decency and civilty. The opportunity to express ones ideas freely is a privilege, please do not abuse it.

[kalim]

Dear Anajmi: One can be decent in spite of the fact (real or perceived) that the opposite person does not share your exact same understanding of the quran/sunnah. Please understand that even though you seem to think that your understanding is the "perfect" or "correct" one, all Muslims do not share them. Bohras reject significant portion of the sunni hadith literature claiming that they are fabricated. We have gone over this numerous times and obviously there is no need to go into this again. So I would suggest you follow the example of Muslim First and do not resort to abuse however much you may be annoyed.

Africawala: I think that Anajmi has a valid point. You defended "your" Imam simply by showing how much charity he has done. First, this is not the requirement for being an Imam. Second, there are many people who are also philanthropic, yet they do not claim any sort of religious authority. So you need to show why you think "your" Imam is legitimate and not the several other contenders for the post. Maybe it is time for you to do some soul searching and discover if you are not simply attracted to his philanthropy and not to the real theological meaning of Imamat? I suggest you try and see what is left after you leave his wealth and charity out of the picture. It may be also time to brush up your knowledge of your own theology a bit. Honestly, you are quite possibly your own worst enemy. If you want "your" Imam to be judged by your behavior I think you need to improve your knowledge quite a bit.

Also, even though you respect the Aga Khan why do you want others to do so? People have a right to disagree with you, even to the extent of being verbally hostile. As even the worst tyrant or fool can find at least one person who respects him does that mean everyone must do so too? Thousands respect the Sayedna. Does that mean we stop criticizing him and his administration? Honestly, I find your above post analogous to a little child's whining. Even if this is a Bohra forum, it is also a public forum, and people have the right to discuss whatever they feel like. If they abuse your sacred cow you should either ignore them, present better arguments, or just not visit the forum anymore. Its your choice. Do not expect the Admin or anyone else for that matter, to protect your sensitivities by censoring things which you do not like to hear.

[Muslim]

Agree with Kalim and Admin.

This message board is not representative of the progressive movement as a whole. Only a small proportion of Bohras have access to the Internet and even fewer visit this board. Most of the regular contributors are not even Bohras in the traditional sense (nothing wrong with that). So it is wrong to judge the entire Bohra reformist movement on the basis of the message board.

Africawala, you cannot expect the Admin to be vetting posts continuously. The best way to deal with abusive people is to ignore them or use rational arguments instead of responding with the same abuse.

I personally dislike the fact that many topics get diverted to Nizari Ismailism because certain people know that it will wind the Ismailis up. Unfortunately it works, and for that you are partly to blame. This is not a "game". You cannot "win". A year from now, or less, all your posts will most likely be forgotten and the same old arguments will come up again. Perhaps you are overestimating the reach and influence of this board.

You are right, a bully is a bully because he/she is insecure. But to a certain extent I think you are also insecure about your beliefs, otherwise you wouldn't get so emotional so easily - you would be content and confident with your beliefs.

The Aga Khan and Nizari Ismailis are respected by many Bohras, orthodox and progressive alike. It doesn't mean they are going to agree with their beliefs. If you look at the Nizari Ismaili history it is similar to the Bohras. The Bohras are in a state today that the Khojas were 50 years ago with the Aga Khan ripping the community off and amassing a ton of wealth. Of course, many of his brainwashed followers would have argued that the money was handed over willingly, much like the kotharis would be arguing today. Bohras have a lot to learn from Aga Khanis.

The abuse aside, like Kalim, I also don't think you have theological made much of a case (versus anajmi) to show the validity of the Aga Khan being an 'imam'. That doesn't necessarily mean anajmi is right. In fact, have you two considered the possibility that you could BOTH be wrong?

Anajmi and MF are a product of a very rigid and narrow-minded belief system not too dissimilar to kotharis. Like robots in Taleban madrassas they can memorize and repeat centuries-old texts but when it comes to being able to put these texts in context or apply them to the modern world, they fail miserably. Failing to respond to your answers, all they can say is "consult a scholar" or "google it" so that presumably a better robot will give them the answers. The so-called "sunnah" they claim to follow is nothing but a bastardization of Islam, a convenient product of poltical goons of the time and their accomplice fairy-tale writers such as Bukhari & Muslim bin Hallaj. In there you will find some of the most bizzare fabrications from the merits of blind obedience to corrupt leadership to camel urine drinking, stories that would put Sayedna to shame. Not that Shia hadith are much better, but they are rarely regarded with such veneration except when they talk about the Ahlul-Bayt. For them personalities matter more, and it helps that most of them are either no longer with us or "hidden". In their absence, "ijtehad" has filled the void. The Sunni-Wahhabi ideology funded by Saudi petrodollars is a message of hate and intolerance and is in my opinion fundamentally incompatible with any sort of progress. I think most Bohras are sensible enough steer clear of such a dangerous cult. Whatever our conspiracy theories, tragedies such as 9/11 and 7/7 did not happen in a vacuum, they were rooted in an essentially intolerant ideology, a cancer within Islam, which Muslims need to eliminate before they can join the rest of the world in the 21st century.

I don't remember the exact argument about Imam Husein being dead, but I fail to see what the big fuss is about. This is the overall philosophical difference between the Sunni/Wahhabi and the Shia - for whom with some exceptions, we have one side arguing for a more rigid and literal understanding and the other taking into account the spiritual and mystical dimension. The martyrs in the literal sense and as far as this world is concerned ARE dead, i.e. their bodies. The verse you mentioned quite categorically states that you are not think of them as dead, not that really are not dead. A Shia would understand the meaning of this and the importance of the martyrs without creating a storm in a teacup.

I agree with you that this site is not the best place to learn about religion or to learn much actually, with the occasional exception. Humsafar, porus, Kalim, mumineen, tahir & Av Bohra are some of the few people whose posts I look forward to. That is not to say I always agree with them, but their comments usually provoke further thought, always a good sign.

[anajmi]

kalim,

I agree with you and will do my best to refrain from abuses.

Muslim,

Looks like you are the only one living in the Saudi petodollars fantasy land. Most of the times I can be found quoting the quran and not the hadith because I know how much of a hatred you people garner towards people like Bukhari. Unfortunately, in your zeal to oppose the hadith and support anyone opposing it, you are, most of the times going against the quran without even knowing.

Considering the fact that you look forward to posts of people who have rejected religion outright, what more can I have to say about your likings?

[anajmi]

Next time I quote an ayah I would prefer one of you M&Ms (Moderate Muslims) to give me the correct interpretation as against the wahabi interpretation, instead of the rhetoric mode that you turn yourself into. All that I hear coming out from the 21st century muslims is Wahabi, Wahabi, Wahabi and nothing else.

[anajmi]

I have learned more about Islam while participating on this board and researching stuff that anywhere else. The problem is not with the site, the problem is with you. No matter what site you go to, your ignorance will follow you there.

[anajmi]

And what is the harm in "consulting a scholar" or "googling it" unless you are not looking for answers but only for fitna?

[anajmi]

kalim,

Here is another thing. I don't think my understanding is "correct" or "perfect". If that is what I think, then I think everyone on this board thinks the same. If I had been the only one thinking like that then the rest would've agreed with me.

So again, I don't think my understanding is "perfect" or "correct", what I am certain about though is that the understanding of the followers of the living Imam and the Dai is definitely incorrect or imperfect.

[anajmi]

I apologize about the long line of posts but I have to say what I have to say.

The message that both Br. Muslim First and myself have been putting forward is simply this.

1 - Salaah like the prophet did
2 - Zakat
3 - Hajj
4 - Roza
5 - Charity
6 - No gambling
7 - No drinking
8 - No idol worshipping (including human idols like the syedna and Aga Khan)
9 - No adultery
10 - Muslim unity
11 - One muslim voice against tyranny against the muslims.

That is pretty much it.

And what does this get labelled as. Let me give you an example.

very rigid and narrow-minded belief system.
robots in Taleban madrassas
when it comes to being able to put these texts in context or apply them to the modern world, they fail miserably.
The so-called "sunnah" they claim to follow is nothing but a bastardization of Islam.
The Sunni-Wahhabi ideology funded by Saudi petrodollars is a message of hate and intolerance and is in my opinion fundamentally incompatible with any sort of progress.
a cancer within Islam

[accountability]

AFricawala: Your post to admin was an unneccessary excercise. Though I have been at odds with anajmi on some peripheral issues. He sometimes finds it neccessary to use strong language, to get his point through. But I have never responded in the same language.

You and anajmi have a common point, actually more than one common points. One, you were both dawoodi bohras. he chose one way, you did the other way. From your post, I have come to see you as a staunch believer in aga khan. But the same thing confuses me, while you left bohra fold, which is led by a fatimid dai, syedna mohammed burhanuddin saheb, But you chose to believe in another ismaili imam. Both of these have common history of around 500 years.

I would really like to know, how did you come to this decision. It seems that the undercurrent to your conversion was more than ideology. Beacause ideology is almost the same.

Syedna saheb is a practicing muslim, who believe in common basics of islam. His religious vigour was and is never a point of contention among bohras, or broadly speaking among muslims. He prays five times, fasts, has done several hajj etc. On the contrary it is a fact, that aga khan lives in paris, has divorced, his daughters are not practicing muslims. even not married to muslims, or agakhanis.

charitable work, that you admire is really worth mentioning. But then there are lot of people, who are involved in charities. so to speak, charity is not the criterea for being an imam. he is imam, by virtue of his ancestery to Mualana Ali. Even the daim ul islam emphaises on the very basics of islam, including hajj, roza, namaz. sydna mohiuddin sherazi, was a good orator, he used to lead namaz during fatmid period, all fatmid imams used to pray in mosques, not in jamat khanas, and they used to pray in the same prescibed sunnah.

You will appreciate the fact, that nizaris do not
pray according to sunnah. they do not build masajids, they do not fast, for whatever reason. Pardesi once denied that, but i may beg to differ with him.

Let me remind you, that i was the first one to object to the language used against aga khan.

If you would allow me to express my opinion, beside, all the ayahs and ahadiths, which you mention to prove. Aga khanism, like bohra ismailism, is kind of cult. in which religion is being used as a tool to subjugate the ordinary believers. I am buying your claim, (though i have my own reasons to believe otherwise) that aga khanis donate volinturily, but my question is, what is the basis of collection. Is he collecting as an imam, or as a head of a charitable organization. it is an obvious fact, that aga khan collects from aga khanis, and syedna saheb collects from bohras.

so if he is collecting as an imam, then zakat and ushr etc had definitive spending priorities. aga khan cannot invest that money in hotel chains, racing grounds, and horses. regardless of the fact, that prophet did or did not bet.

my simple contention is, your vigorous defence of aga khan, even to limit of abusing and cursing is not so much warranted. I do condemn use of foul language. one should not never leave basic decency.

Having said that, I have a right to believe in whatever is true to my knowledge. I may also differ with anyone.

[tahir]

Originally posted by accountability:

Syedna saheb is a practicing muslim, who believe in common basics of islam. His religious vigour was and is never a point of contention among bohras, or broadly speaking among muslims. He prays five times, fasts, has done several hajj etc. On the contrary it is a fact, that aga khan lives in paris, has divorced, his daughters are not practicing muslims. even not married to muslims, or agakhanis.

Sayedna is not a practicing muslim but a masquerading muslim. He has kept all the basics of Islam at bay. Not only he lets himself being idol worshipped but allows bohras to foresake namaz for his deedar/kadambosi. Forgot the 'Haqiqi Qaba' thing?

I keep Aga Khan many notches above Sayedna. For one, the man doesn't pretend what he is not and is quite open about whatever he does. Behind those long beards and saayas, Sayedna and his family are indulged in more or less the same activities which you all believe Aga Khan is into.

Personally, I have no problem in people living an indulgent life including horse racing, gambling and womenising as long as they are fulfulling their allocated duties. I am just infuriated at hypocricy.

[kabeer19922001]

Africawalla writes

"I have said it before and I am saying it for the last time. The Prophet has said that those who die without knowing the Imam of the Time, will die as Jahaliya. So it does not matter how you pray, how many wudhus you do, how much zakat you pay, etc. YOU WILL DIE AS A JAHALIYA if you have not recognized the Imam of your Time who is supposed to be from Ahle Bayt."

I have asked this several times on this Board to Africawalla and have not got a clear response. Currently there are at least 3 imams, one followed ecah by the Bohri's, Ithna Shri and Agha Khanis.

So the question is which one is the genuine imam or is it possible to have 3 imams at the same time.

Africawalla switched his loyalties from one Imam to another and I am very interested to know his rationale.

Regards

[Muslim First]

The so-called "sunnah" they claim to follow is nothing but a bastardization of Islam, a convenient product of poltical goons of the time and their accomplice fairy-tale writers such as Bukhari & Muslim bin Hallaj. In there you will find some of the most bizzare fabrications from the merits of blind obedience to corrupt leadership to camel urine drinking, stories that would put Sayedna to shame. Not that Shia hadith are much better,----

O that hurts. Such venom!

Here is what Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi in Fatwa on Sunnis & Shiites: Overlooking Differences states;

“It is true that the Shiites do not recognize the Sunni reference books on the Prophetic hadiths, such as Al-Muwatta' by Imam Malik, Imam Ahmad's Musnad, Sahih Al-Bukhari, SahihMuslim, Sunnan Abu Dawud, Sunan Ibn Majah, Sunnan Ad-Daramy. However, most of the authentic hadiths referred to in these books were also regarded as authentic by the Shiites through one of two ways: regarding them as Prophetic hadiths reported by other chains of reporters agreed upon among them as trustworthy, or regarding them as points of view (not Prophetic hadiths) peculiar to their Shiite imams.

Anyway, the most important point to be taken into account is that there is a great deal of agreement between the Sunni jurisprudence and the Shiite one. This is because both depend on the same sources, the Qur’an and the Sunnah, and also because their aims in conducting research on religion are similar, that is, establishing Allah's justice and mercy among people.

Furthermore, if we are to make serious researches on the Sunni opinions, we will find that some Shiite views that seem eccentric to us have been also adopted by some Sunni scholars.â€

[anajmi]

Br. Muslim First,

Apparently that is what the Shias are good at, beating their chests and crying out loud.

[Muslim]

MF,

You conveniently deleted the rest of the paragraph from my quote that explains my stance on Shia hadith, the thrust of which was that ijtehad plays an increasingly greater role.

Secondly, as it is quite clear from my comments, they were directed to you and Anajmi based on the particular brand of religion you promote and not Sunnism as a whole. Al-Qardawi comments are correct because he is referring to the mainstream Sunni view and not the minority Salafi extremists whose ideology he does not agree with.

Its hard to reconcile your above sweet-talk on oh-how-so-united-we-are with your regular abuse against Sayedna, Shias and especially Ismailis and the Aga Khan. Perhaps it has also escaped your memory that in order make yourself look popular you created multiple login IDs, pretended to belong to other sects be interested in your own brand of Islam. You would be continuing with that to this day had you not been stupid enough to mention your name and location on every profile. Is deceiving people also part of your "sunnah"? I suggest you stop being a hypocrite.

anajmi,

Considering the fact that you look forward to posts of people who have rejected religion outright, what more can I have to say about your likings?

That is precisely why I look forward to their opinions. If you only want to talk people who will agree with you and whose ideas are very similar to yours, I suggest you open a forum where you are the only member and talk to yourself.

Allow me to add one more item to your long list of things you are trying to preach:

12 - No resorting to verbal abuse when you cannot debate rationally

You two lovebirds should practise what you preach and then school me on religion.

[anajmi]

Muslim,

That is precisely why I look forward to their opinions. If you only want to talk people who will agree with you and whose ideas are very similar to yours, I suggest you open a forum where you are the only member and talk to yourself.

Now how can I rationally debate with that? You look forward to their opinions not to debate with them but to question yourself. You are, what we refer to as, a weak muslim.

And I practice what I preach, that is precisely the reason why I piss people like you off, who neither preach nor practice, but are good only at mud slinging.

[anajmi]

Maybe next time around you should start looking forward to my posts cause you won't find anybody who disagrees with you more.

[Amicus Mellitus]

MUSLIM says:

you created multiple login IDs, pretended to belong to other sects be interested in your own brand of Islam. You would be continuing with that to this day had you not been stupid enough to mention your name and location on every profile. Is deceiving people also part of your "sunnah"? I suggest you stop being a hypocrite.

Now how ON EARTH and IN THE NAME GOD could you possibly be so sure? Right now one can go and crerate a new identity with the profile of Bill Clinton, so what? If you have concrete evidence all would be interested. We could send a paper to IEEE Transactions on Information Forensics and Security and I GUARANTEE YOU A PRIZE from IEEE for bringing in a revolution in network forensics...come now tell us the secret man


P.S. One can even hijack ALL OF YOUR web belongings and you won't even know what stuck you and here you are telling us this cock bull story about profiles and IPS and routes( Oh you did not mention these).

[Average Bohra]

Amicus,

He didn't bring up IP addresses or routes, just as I didn't when I exposed Anajmi's aliases, and Anajmi did not seek the help of IEEE simply admitted it. Muslim First generally posts as a Sunni in love with or wanting to marry a Bohri girl or vice versa. He posts his location in his profile and then panics when someone pegs his location thinking it is some high tech conspiracy against him. Technology does not replace common sense, simply augments it. In your rush to display your obvious limited knowledge of technology, you have exhibited your ignorance.

IEEE Transactions on Information Forensics and Security does not get involved in such trivial matters nor does it give you prizes for exposing them.

[Muslim]

Anajmi,

You look forward to their opinions not to debate with them but to question yourself.

Both. There is nothing wrong with questioning yourself, thats how your knowledge and faith improve.

You are, what we refer to as, a weak muslim.

Maybe you should stop worrying about how weak or strong other people's religion is and instead concentrate on improving your own religion.

Ok, I will look forward to your posts from now on, since you're feeling so left out

Amicus,

You are such a joker.

[Amicus Mellitus]

ONE: I do not talk to proven bad mouthed abusers.

TWO: I happen to be a reviewer of some IEEE Transanctions and IEEE DOES GIVE various prizes

THREE: Fools and born abusers will do better to SHUT UP

[Amicus Mellitus]

On reflection I think I should address this man Muslim for once:

what you claimed was something BIG. People have been working day and night for years on the problem you seem to have solved in no time, hence my surprise.

Instead of squaring out with a reason you turned to name calling, the simplest way out. I could return the compliment but thats not the way I operate. Abusers simply do not exist for me. I do not see any more communication with you from now on.

[tahir]

Amicus,
When my 5 year old nephew puts on a mask to scare me I am neither scared nor do I need hi tech assistance to know its him. I just know its him.

[Muslim First]

.
Br. Muslim
I do not want to be in personal battle with you. This is not Head Butt contest. Score is already 2-0. So let me apologies for my past indiscretions. Yes I did use 2 more handle but do not remembering pretending to be other than Sunni Muslim. It was not stupidity but lack of computer savvy at that time. I did not know that if you put location then it could be read by pressing a button. I am sorry if I offended you or other Brothers.

You said:
Not that Shia hadith are much better, but they are rarely regarded with such veneration except when they talk about the Ahlul-Bayt. For them personalities matter more, and it helps that most of them are either no longer with us or "hidden". In their absence, "ijtehad" has filled the void.---
(This does not mean I have edited your post. By putting ----, one may continue to read your entire post)

This is my view

Yes, Shias also have Ahadith. They are ‘rarely regarded with such veneration’ may be because many of them contain mundane subjects. They deal with unimportant things like Salah, Fasting, Hajj, and something called TAUHID , Zakah, Marriage, Obligation towards family, Social norms and obligations, Reminders about major and minor sins, Virtues and personal conduct, Vices, Prohibited and undesirable acts (Omens, Grave worshiping, Kadam Bosi etc. etc.), Earning and spending, Invocations and supplications etc., etc. And also have important Ahadit (plural of Hadith) about love Ahlul-Bayt. I want to take a pass on commenting on it.

Camel Urine Hadith has become favorite instrument in the hands of critics of Islam (within and without). They never bother to search and read something like this .

I do not think there will be truce between Shias and Sunnis. Shias want to exercise their right to abuse certain people and Sunnis do not want to ignore it. Scholars like Shaikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi are voices in wilderness. Both sides will ignore them.

Wasalaam

[shabir]

admin

this forum is creating enemity between the different sects of muslims.If this is not its aim than either it should be managed in the porper way or closed