Kalim, are you still out there ?

[Average Bohra]

You haven't participated in a while and I hope you are still lurking, as I appreciate your posts and point of view.

[kalim]

Yes, I am still lurking on this board. I visit it once in a while to catch up with what is happening here. I have become quite busy in the past six months with leading a large scale physics/mathematics modelling project. There are also other reasons for silence, outlined below.

As I see it the board is overrun by prolific Sunnis and rather foul mouthed bohras (both progressives and orthodox). I am not sure of the Sunni people's motives but it seems to me that they take a lot of attention away from core reform and bohra issues and use the board as a shout-box to peddle their virulent beliefs. Their time may be better spent on a truly Sunni message board instead of creating trouble here. They should keep in mind the chastisement in the afterlife meted out to those who create fitnat. Of course, their contribution is sometimes valuable but more often is simply spam. Also, their understanding of bohra fiqh (say as expounded in Dai'm Al-Islam) or Ismaili philosophy is quite lacking. No bohra is interested in what Bukhari or Yusuf Ali says.

I also dislike the extremely hostile rhetoric used by some progressives. I do not see the point discussing the succession dispute or what happened to so-and-so da'i's mother or brother. I know that the movement in general has accepted the present da'i's as a spiritual head and so we should ignore the issue of past successions and family politics.

Actually, in the past few months I had some interesting discussions with some leading members of the orthodox community, some of whom have sincerely served as religious leaders in their respective towns. There are two common themes (a) the extreme corruption of the dawaat administration (b) the various posturing for the succession of the present da'i.

The first theme brings to fore the point made on this board: there are a lot of orthodox bohras who are extremely fed up of the administration but do not have a forum to express their frustration. Can the progressives take advantage of the situation and provide a better model for jamaat management? I think so, and, specially in the West this forum (if it is more focused) can be a good place to air these ideas. Most people I speak to know about the site and visit it often.

The second theme should not be the focus of the movement. We should not care who becomes the next da'i. No need to pick between the camps of the various sons (Muffadul Saifuddin and Qaid Joher Izzudin seem to be leading) or brothers (Mazoon saheb and Qasim bhai saheb lead here). We should focus instead on the narrow agenda of jamaat and social reform.

Anyway, I do follow this board regularly and will try to contribute as time and interest permit.

[porus]

Originally posted by Kalim:
They should keep in mind the chastisement in the afterlife meted out to those who create fitnat.

A point Muslim First should take to heart.

Clearly underlined by ayat 104:1

"waylun li-kulli humaza(tin) lumaza(tin)"

"Woe to every back-biter and defamer"

Since lost of his posts are designed to defame and dishonor the Shia Imams and Dais, and also Shia generally.

[Average Bohra]

Kalim,

Both the Bohra orthodoxy and the progressive movement are static and it is hard to keep a discussion forum interesting or alive, perpetually discussing status quo. I agree with your general assessment of this board as it stands.

In the meantime, an occasional teaser "discussion" with the prolific Wahabis (until the invectives start flying), or those with communist leanings keeps me mildly entertained.

Porus,

Is the statement in the Quran "Woe to every back-biter and defamer" universal or does it pertain specifically to fellow Muslims as in "Woe to every back-biter and defamer {of Muslims}" ? If it is the latter then MF is off the hook scot-free.

[Humsafar]

Originally posted by Average Bohra:
In the meantime, an occasional teaser "discussion" with the prolific Wahabis (until the invectives start flying), or those with communist leanings keeps me mildly entertained.

I'm sure you can find better means to keep yourself "mildly entertained". As for "communist leanings", wake up AB, the Cold War is over and the Russians will not be coming anymore. Even Fukuyama has given up the ghost on his "end of history" fiction, and here you are, hopelessly stuck in the "free market is a natural system" rut.

[anajmi]

Average,

If what you got from the prolific wahabis was entertainment, then you wouldn'tve been looking for kalim's shoulder to cry on. If it was entertainment, and kalim would know, then I am glad to provide it. Keep coming back for more. The pleasure was actually all mine.

[anajmi]

kalim,

If by prolific sunni, you are referring to me, then you are mistaken. I am a reformed bohra, participating in the reform movement and my level of participation is about 50 times more than yours.

[Average Bohra]

Humsafar,

No need to get defensive; the socialist undercurrent in Europe and Asia is still strong and we are witnessing the transformation of Venezuela.

[Humsafar]

So what's wrong with that. Will nothing less than a complete western capitalist domination satisfy you?

[porus]

AB,

104:1, like all Quran, is universally applicable to all 'intelligent' beings on earth and elsewhere. It does not apply to God and I can quote a few verses wherein the Almighty himself engages in back-biting and defaming not only humans, but other Gods too.

If you read beyond the first verse, you might be tempted, like a true Wahhabi, to think that it only applies to those who horde material wealth in the belief that it will be useful to them in the hereafter. But then, who believes that they will take their material wealth with them when they die?

So, Muslim First must change his ways or face God's wrath. If he must preach, the he could start by pondering over verse 16:125.

[anajmi]

Also, their understanding of bohra fiqh (say as expounded in Dai'm Al-Islam) or Ismaili philosophy is quite lacking. No bohra is interested in what Bukhari or Yusuf Ali says.

Actually, I guarantee you that no bohra is interested in Dai'm Al-Islam either. They don't have a clue what it says. You and porus seem to be the only two interested in it. And both of you are from the kuffar!! Besides, I actually don't think you've understood anything that Dai'm Al Islam says. Have we ever seen you quoting from it when relevant? Not once. Bohras probably know more about Bukhari than Dai'm Al Islam or who wrote it!!

What is the reason that more and more bohras are interested in this board and have begun to visit it often? Is it because of you? With your level of participation, I sincerely doubt that. I also doubt that they are a bunch of Average Morons here to entertain themselves.

[makberi]

anajmi,

its not that bohras are not interested in daimul islam, its jus that very few have access to such books. ofcourse the translation of the daimul islam is available, but to get access to the other books, one needs to go thru the kothar.

ur strong faith in ur beliefs is admirable...n ur posts are very helpful...but to be honest with u ...i have to scan thru ur posts deleting a lot of morons n kafirs to get hold of the information that ur tryin to convey......try to avoid that

[porus]

Originally posted by makberi:
ur strong faith in ur beliefs is admirable...

You ought to be careful. Whose faith in what are we talking about? A Zionist faith in superiority of zJews over Muslims and Christians? Afrikaner's faith in superiority of White man over nlack? A neo-aNazi's faith in supriority of the white races? They all have strong faith in their beliefs.

How about the faith of a Hindu in his religion or a Buddhist in his?

Remember Barry Goldwater? He said "Extremism in defence of Liberty is no vice." Even if it means killing millions of innocent who do share your faith in liberty?

Always learn to make a distinction of principled faith from fanatical extremism. There is nothing admirable in a Wahhabi with strong faith unless his lurid actions and words against others who do not hpold his views appeal to you.

[makberi]

to put it simply,
principled faith + intolerance = fanatical extremism

so the problem is not principled faith...but intolerance...i respect n admire anajmi's faith yet his intolerance towards ppl with different views is the problem....i m sure a man of his intelligence can work it out...

[tahir]

Originally posted by porus:
Whose faith in what are we talking about? A Zionist faith in superiority of zJews over Muslims and Christians? Afrikaner's faith in superiority of White man over nlack? A neo-aNazi's faith in supriority of the white races?

And an imperialist power's faith in its own ways of polity and economy. The difference is that Afrikaner doesn't invade other black countries to impose his views, the imperialist does. The latter is most disasterous to the world since the superpower has found ways to justify all its invasions and massacres (much bigger in scale than all those whom you mentioned can inflict together).

[anajmi]

makberi, porus,

I am just as tolerant towards others as others are towards me. For eg. I respect porus' views just as much as he respects mine. And you can go through both our posts to figure that out!! Fanatic extremism is not my personal domain. Its just that, I do not justify my extremism by blaiming that of others.

makberi,

Unfortunately, most of the times I am dealing with kafirs and morons, so I am sorry, but I am working on better utilizing my time.