Qur'an and hadith

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Gursevak wrote in another post "I think any true Muslim would have to admit Bukhari saheb must have got his wires crossed." This got me thinking so I decided to do some research.<p>The Ahl-e-Sunnah say that the hadith explains the Quran and without ahadith Quran cannot be understood. Well I did a little experiment with 5 of my co-workers, 3 Muslims and 2 Christians who have no hostility towards Islam. Of the Muslims two are fom the hanafi school and the other a Dawwodi Bohra who has heard of brother Engineer but claims not to know about the Reform movement. I gave them the following translations of verse 5 of Sura 11;<br>011.005 <br>YUSUFALI: Behold! they fold up their hearts, that they may lie hid from Him! Ah even when they cover themselves with their garments, He knoweth what they conceal, and what they reveal: for He knoweth well the (inmost secrets) of the hearts. <br>PICKTHAL: Lo! now they fold up their breasts that they may hide (their thoughts) from Him. At the very moment when they cover themselves with their clothing, Allah knoweth that which they keep hidden and that which they proclaim. Lo! He is Aware of what is in the breasts (of men). <br>SHAKIR: Now surely they fold up their breasts that they may conceal (their enmity) from Him; now surely, when they use their garments as a covering, He knows what they conceal and what they make public; surely He knows what is in the breasts. <p>All five of them said basically the same thing - nothing is concealed from God no matter how we try to shroud our feeelings/thoughts.<p>Now, brothers, what do you think the ayat says? Not very easy to understand? Perhaps we need to refer to Volume 6 of Bukhari's collection - Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh))- for clarification.<p>Guess what explanation the Prophet(SAW)gave? Here is the hadith:<br>Volume 6, Book 60, Number 203: <br>Narrated Muhammad bin 'Abbas bin Ja'far: <p>That he heard Ibn 'Abbas reciting: "No doubt! They fold up their breasts." (11.5) and asked him about its explanation. He said, "Some people used to hide themselves while answering the call of nature in an open space lest they be exposed to the sky, and also when they had sexual relation with their wives in an open space lest they be exposed to the sky, so the above revelation was sent down regarding them." <p>The whole purpose of this narration was to tell the Sahaba that God could see them defecating and sleeping in the desert! Does this sound plausible?<p>Can you think of any other examples? I am not trying to denegrate the ahadith; in fact we all believe in some of them. What I am trying to explain is that just because a hadith is Bukhari or Muslim's collection does not necessarily mean it is authentic

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The most of the hadiths are pretty ridiculous if you ask me. In Ismailism, the intellect plays a key role in deciding whether to accept or reject a certain hadith.

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The sunni & wahabi creeds are based on these hadeeths/sunnah and thus their name:<br>1)Ahl as Sunnah wal jamaa'h (four sunni sects)<br>2)Ahle Hadeeth (wahabis/Salafis)<p>If these hadeeths are fabricated then their CREEDS are fabricated!<p>If these hadeeths are BLASPHEMOUS then their Creeds are blasphemous.<p>And, the penalty for blasphemy according to their own practise is - DEATH!

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<br>Hafeez<p>Take a look at "Topic: Quranic verse which is called Hadi-se-Qudsi"<p>Care to answer?<p>

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MF<p>I believe the answer is in its thread! Why not REBUT in its appropriate thread. <p>In this thread - RESPOND to why the wahabi creed should not be STONED to death for BLASPHEMING islam & the prophet (naujabillah) - a DIRECT reference to the de-basing hadeeths that are basis of this creed of salafiyya/wahabiyya.

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Muslim First,<p>I believe Nizari and hafeez may have a temporary lapse of memory; no doubt they will rememeber the source. But even if they don't they will not be the first. Here is an example of Bukhari forgetting something:<p>Volume 6, Book 60, Number 50: <br>Narrated Nafi': <p>Whenever Ibn 'Umar recited the Qur'an, he would not speak to anyone till he had finished his recitation. Once I held the Qur'an and he recited Surat-al-Baqara from his memory and then stopped at a certain Verse and said, "Do you know in what connection this Verse was revealed? " I replied, "No." He said, "It was revealed in such-and-such connection." Ibn 'Umar then resumed his recitation. Nafi added regarding the Verse:--"So go to your tilth when or how you will" Ibn 'Umar said, "It means one should approach his wife in .." <p>So why does it not make sense? A footnote completes the picture. The footnote says "Al Bukhary left a blank space here because he<br>was not sure of what Ibn Umar had said !."<p>So you see brother MF, we all suffer from lapses of memory; some of us get criticised for it and some still get treated as heroes.<p>Peace to all mankind

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<br>Ex <p>It seems you are expert in Ahadith<p>Please tell me source of this Hadit-Qudsi<p>"There is a Quranic verse which is called Hadi-se-Qudsi in which Allah told Muhammad.,<br>"Had it not been for thee, I would not have created the world! And, had it not been for Ali, I would not have created thee."<p>Is this hadith correctly queted?<p><p>

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<br>Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith <br>Hadith 6.203<br>Narrated by Muhammad bin Abbas bin Jafar<p>That he heard Ibn 'Abbas reciting: "No doubt! They fold up their breasts." (11.5) and asked him about its explanation. He said, "Some people used to hide themselves while answering the call of nature in an open space lest they be exposed to the sky, and also when they had sexual relation with their wives in an open space lest they be exposed to the sky, so the above revelation was sent down regarding them."<br>********************************<br>Narrator Muhammad bin Abbas bin Jafar heard Ibn 'Abbas reciting: "No doubt! They fold up their breasts." (11.5)<p>What follows is Ibn Abbas's explaination of what 11.5 meant.<p>Where does it say it was Prophet SAW's explaination? or I am missing something!<p>This could be Ibn Abbas's esoteric explaination! May be Ibn Abbas was trying to pull Muhammad bin Abbas bin Jafar's leg.<p>Bukhari was a collector of reported ahidth not a editor. So long as chain of narrators were good he included in his collectin.<p>It is up to us to utilise these for whatever good or evil purpose we have in our heart and mind.<p> <p><p><p>

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<br>Nizari wrote: "In Ismailism, the intellect plays a key role in deciding whether to accept or reject a certain hadith."<p>I think other sects also use 'intellect'<p>

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"I think other sects also use 'intellect'"<p>On the contrary - they use 'Literal Sunnah' a la the 7th century 'Hear & Obey' variety packaged also as HEAR & OBEY!<p>

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<br>Hay Hafeez<p>Care to explain this:<p>"There is a Quranic verse which is called Hadi-se-Qudsi in which Allah told Muhammad.,<br>"Had it not been for thee, I would not have created the world! And, had it not been for Ali, I would not have created thee.<br>In other words, the Prophet owed his existence to that of Ali. If there was no Ali, there would be nq Muhammad, and if there was no Muhammad, there would be no universes. What more do we need "<p>"Just compare the treatment Allah gave to Ali's mother with that which He gave Jesus! mother! Ali's mother was invited inside Kaba's mosque, while Jesus' mother was left alone to solve her ownW-bblem. Ali was chosen to be born in the Kaba while Jesus in a stable. And yet, the Quran has called Jesus Allah's mighty messenger and has endorsed his miracles. Didn't Jesus, according to the Bible, invoke the name of Ali? : "Oh, Effi, why have you deserted me?" All was above all the prophets. The Kaba is exalted only because of Ali."<p>Does this mean Ali RA has higher status then Prophet SAW?<p>How many Aya's revealed to Ali RA? (None)<p>How many times Ali RA mentioned in Quran? (None)<p>"Prophet owed his existence to that of Ali" What is this BS?<p>Who was Prophet and who was first male convert?<p>Does this represent Ismaili Intelect?<p><p><p><p>

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MF<br>Ismaili Islam & the Light of 'Ali is not 1400 years old; it is old as life itself!<p>The hadis is reflecting upon the importance of 'Ali and the Light of Ali,<br>as:<br>"The haq is with Ali and Ali is with haq"<p>Without 'Ali there would be no world nor any of its living creatures incl the prophets & the holy men.<p>Pls refer to:<br>Topic: Ph.D Ismaili Convert interviewed by Christian schoolteacher <br>http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/ubb/Forum ... .html<p>32. Is Ismaili Islam only 1400 years old?<p>No! It is as old as the Creation itself. Excepting Satan, all the other angels that bowed to Adam practised Islam and were Muslims because they submitted to Allah's command. Islam has existed under different labels prior to the advent of Muhammad. What Muhammad preached was Ismaili Islam. What all his predecessors such as Jesus, Moses, David, Abraham, Noah, and Adam preached was Ismaili Islam. The Quran calls them all Muslims. Two of the many verses revealed to this effect were: "He (Allah) hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which He commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. " (chapt 42 verse 13)<p>The Prophet is asked to tell the people:<p>"Say. We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was given unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims to Him" (111: 84)<p>8000 years ago, before the advent of our Biblical Adam, there existed and flourished a civilization on the soil of the Indian sub-continent. At this time in history, Ismaili Islam existed under the divinely inspired Buddha (not Gautama Buddha), and before him under Krishna, and before him under Rama. The Ismaili Islam traces itself further back to the time when there was nothing but aquatic life. There is a verse in the Quran which says: "in the beginning, Allah's throne was on water." (14:7) This further indicates how well Ismaili Islam and Science are in harmony with each other. Christianity claims the Creation is 6000 years old -as old as Adam- which is scientifically inaccurate. Ismaili Islam claims it is billions of years old and that there have been hundreds of Adams before the Biblical Adam, and this Ismaili theory is in agreement with the present scientific data. Adam in Arabic simply means anything made out of clay and water. We are all Adams of our time.<p>Ismaili Islam traces itself back to the Big Bang. And in every age there has been a living guide present to show the right path to those who wished to achieve spiritual salvation. In every age humanitarian work and not prayers have been emphasized as the principal requisite for spiritual salvation. Prayer without action becomes pride and bears no desired fruits. 1400 years ago, the Quran and the the sermons of Imam Ali told us of the Big Bang, describing how the universe came into existence while scientists have just recently confirmed the Big Bang to be the beginning of the universe.<p><br>

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<br>Dear Hafeez<p>I am going to as polite as possible.<p>It is obvious You and I practice 2 different religion.<p>It is also obivious that Islam as understood by whole world is different than your version of Islam.<p>My sincere apology for abusing your religion.<p>Good buy and 'Ya Ali Madad to you'<p>(O allah forgive me)<p>

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<br>Dear Hafeez<br>I am going to as polite as possible.<p>It is obvious that You and I practice 2 different religion.<p>It is also obivious that Islam as understood by whole world is different than your version of Islam.<p>My sincere apology for abusing your religion.<p>Good by and 'Ya Ali Madad to you'<p>(O allah forgive me)<br>

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<br>"At this time in history, Ismaili Islam existed under the divinely inspired Buddha (not Gautama Buddha), and before him under Krishna, and before him under Rama. The Ismaili Islam"<p>Wow!<p>We must tell Hindu's that they are Ismaili Muslims. They will be thrilled to hear that.<p>

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Muslim First<br>=================================<br>"This could be Ibn Abbas's esoteric explaination! May be Ibn Abbas was trying to pull Muhammad bin Abbas bin Jafar's leg."<br>======================================<br>So the most treasured book after the Qur'an itself may be a collection of playful musing between sahabas interspersed with the sayings and teachings of the Prophet (SAW)? And how are we tell when it is leg-pulling and when it is preaching? Ask our local Moulvi? And presumably Allah will forgive us if we mistake leg-pulling and put into practice a sahaba's idea of a joke?<p>As you point out to hafeez, there is a difference in interpretation. I think we all follow the same Deen (Islam), hafeez' madhab is Shia and his tariqa is Nizari, qiyam's madhab is Shia but his tariqa is Bohra. I do not see anything wrong with that. You are welcome to your madhab but please do not insist that anyone not following it is not practising Islam.<p>Peace to all madhabis<p>

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MF<p>Good to know that you have FINALLY realized that Ismailism & Wahabiyaa are different like:<br>DAY & NIGHT<br>LIGHT & DARKNESS<p>That is the point I have been trying to drill into your inflated skull that sunni-wahabiya is not a RELIGION it is a PERVERTED movement based on hate & violence.<p>

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Beavis,<p>The real world is full of hate and violence today. The unreal world, the world of fantasy where the women do not have to be modest and rapists are not stoned to death is good.<p>That is all there is to it. We follow the real Islam a religion which cannot be good to that which is not right.<p>Ali and his light is a fantasy similar to Krishna and his 1600 wives or Siva and his son with the elephant head. At least there are books stating about krishna and shiva but none about Ali and his light. Infact even in Nahjul balagha Ali himself does not mention anything to that effect.<p>Only Allah knows where this Ali and the light came from. Somebody had a wild imagination.

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And what does anajmi (Wahabbi) expect us to follow? His version of Islam (Wahabbism)? LOL Dream on!

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Hi everyone!<p>I see Einstein has come back after some gray cells replacement therapy!<p>Mian Einstein wrote "The unreal world, the world of fantasy where the women do not have to be modest and rapists are not stoned to death is good." So it is the real world where rapists are stoned to death. And how big is this real world? There are no stonings in USA, in Europe, in India.... No doubt in your mind these places don't exist.<p>Now how about using some of the newly acquired gray cells to reply to ExMuslim's points?<p>Fantasy Kid Gursevak