Quran Proofs of Imamat (real discussion, no nonsense)

[Guest]

Present Quranic proofs of Imamat<br>and/or Quranic proofs that refute Imamat.<br>This will hopefully be a rational discussion.<br>Musim First, Anajmi are all welcome as long as you dont start slandering and mud-slinging. Same for Hafeez and anyone else.

[Guest]

Nizari,<p>Are you going to quote any ayah which has not already been quoted and refuted elsewhere? <p>Are you open to the fact that Aga Khan may not be what he says he is? I am open to the fact that he may be what he says he is.<p>If not, then this exercise will end up in slandering and mud-slinging and as you have seen before, nobody is better at it than I am.

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<br>Boy this devient people are persistant!<p>They know there is no Zahiri proof of Imaamat in Quran-al-majid.<p>I guess they like to get beat-up. Let's get the paddle out.<p>Peace<p>

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Nizari,<p>I thought we were going to have a no nonsense discussion. Chicken???? or maybe a duck!!

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<br>Br.anajmi<p>AS<p>Lets get species identification correct. 'Ducks' are the one that go quack-quack. They come in various varities like Sunni, Wahabi, Shia etc. etc.. They perform Arkans of Islam with little variation. Whanabe ducks or chicken with duck feathher stuck on them are likes of 'Nizari Ismailies'. They have abondened the pillers of Islam. Taken other Godlike deities. Yet they pretend to be MUSLIM.<p>So all Muslim are Ducks and they go quack-quack. Rest are wanabe ducks.<p>Wasalaam<p>

[Guest]

<br>2:124 – “And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an IMAM to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (IMAMS) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."<p>It is clear that Allah made Abraham an Imam to mankind and promised Imams from the offspring of Abraham. Thus Imams exist by the covenant of God with Abraham.<br>

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Here is the problem with your translation.<p>Allah said "I will make thee an Imam".<p>Abraham said "And also (IMAMS) from my offspring"<p>Allah said "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."<p>Do you see it?

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Sorry, I dont see the problem.<br>Your logic is horribly flawed.

[Guest]

There is no logic involved. <p>And can you tell me what the flaw is?<p>I am just looking at the translation that you quoted and I don't see Allah making a promise that the offspring of Abraham will be Imams. In fact when asked by Abraham about his offspring been Imams Allah says "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers." The only promise that Allah has made in this translation is that Abraham will be an Imam over the nations. Where is Allah saying that Abrahams offspring will also be Imams?<p>When you say my logic is horribly flawed is it not your duty to explain the flaw?

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<br>I am using Translation by Hilali and Khan and I am breaking down sentences in different lines<p>2:124<p>And (remember) When the Lord of Ibrahim [i.e. Allah] tried him with (certain) Commands, which he fulfilled.<p>He (Allah) said (to him), “verily, I am going to make you an Imaam (a leader) for mankind (to follow you)”<p>[Ibrahim] said, “And of my offspring (to make leaders).”<p>(Allah) Said, “my Covenant (Prophethood) includes not Zalimun (Polytheists and wrong doers)”.<p>(page 42 & 43)<p>- - - - - -<p>It is obivouus that Allah said to Ibrahim that I am going to make you Imaam<p>Ibrihim asked " and my offspring"?<p>Allah responded "my Covenant (Prophethood) does not include wrong doers"<p>Please do not ply with Allah's words.<p>

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<br>Look at the verse again, will you.<p>Muslim First, in your translation, the words Prophethood and leader have been inserted in by the translator. It is clear that Abraham was talking about Imamat not Prophethood.<br>Do not play with Allah's words.<p>2:124 – “And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an IMAM to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."<p>First Allah makes Abraham the Imam of mankind. Then Abraham pleads with Allah to make Imams of his offspring. Allah replies saying that the evildoers will not be Imams. Does Allah ever say NO to Abahram's prayer? Allah simply says that those who do evil will not be Imams.<p>Further Proof of the Covenant:<p>21:72 – “And We bestowed on him Isaac and, as an additional gift, (a grandson), Jacob, and We made righteous men of every one (of them).” <br>21:73 – “And We made them IMAMS, guiding (men) by Our Command, and We inspired them to do good deeds, to establish regular prayers, and to give Zakat; and they constantly served Us (and Us only).”<p>There you have it. The Covenant with Abraham was confirmed and nowhere did Allah say this Imamat would end.

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<br>I have not added Prophethood its in ( )<p>Peace<p><br>

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The word Prophethood is absent from the translations of Yusuf Ali, Pickthall, Sher Ali, Shaykir, and Rashad Khalifa.<p>It was probably added in by your translator.

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I'll try and explain why your argument regarding the verse 2:124 is horribly flawed.<p>Abraham asked "And also (IMAMS) from my offspring"<p>Allah replied "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."<p>Does this imply that all of abrahams offspring were evil-doers?<p>Consider a hypothetical situation - I ask you "Can my children come to your jamatkhana?"<p>You say - "It is not for non Ismailis"<p>Doesn't this automatically imply that my children are non Ismailis? It does.<p>Let us again say that Allah promised that Abraham will have Imams - Isaac was an Imam so was yakub and as Allah says they were righteous men. Allahs promise was fulfilled.<p>Did Allah also say that there will Imams from your offspring forever?

[Guest]

Bottom line - Allah never said that Abraham's offspring will become Imams. He never said they won't either, but then he never said my father's offspring will NOT become Imam either, am I to assume that that automatically means that my father's offspring will be an Imam?<p>Some logic!!

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Anajmi<p>What in the world are you babbling about? <br>The real bottom line is that ALLAH MADE ABRAHAM THE IMAM. ABRAHAM ASKED IF THEIR WOULD BE IMAMS IN HIS OFFSPRING. <br>ALLAH SAID "BuT, my promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."<p>You have no argument against this explicit proof. I dont know where you got the notion that Allah said no to Abraham. <br>I presented the evidence of promise and you couldnt even argue that.<p>The fact of the matter is that Allah promised Abraham Imams from his offspring. And this promise is being fulfilled. <br>This is the everlasting covenant made with Allah and Abraham - the leader of mankind. Therefore, their is always a Divinely Appointed Imam on earth.<p>You dont have to accept it, but it is the truth.

[Guest]

whats the matter guyz, cat got your tongues?<br>or have you finally realized that what you preach is wrong?<br>You cannot argue against the Quran.

[Guest]

You guys have a terrific knack of rewriting Allahs ayahs to suit your own purposes. Allah said "BuT, my promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."<p>And to the aql and reason of Ismaili brains it means that Allah promised Imamat to the offspring of Abraham. Duh!!<p>All I want you to show me is where Allah has promised that Abrahams offspring will be Imams? <p>The above quotation from Allah does not mean that Allah promised Imamat to Abrahams progeny. To claim otherwise is to demonstrate absolutely no aql or reason.

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Nizari,<p>Please do not be impatient. This is not a full time job for us.

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Another thing is about this "EVERLASTING" covenant. Which one is that?

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And let me tell you something about arguing against the quran. We believe that the quran is the absolute truth and that is why in my second post I said "I am open to the fact that he may be what he says he is."<p>You are the one who is a hypocrite for not having replied to the question "Are you open to the fact that Aga Khan may not be what he says he is?"<p>You are the one who is afraid of the quran!!

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My question to you is where does Allah not say Imams will come from Abraham's offspring?<p>You keep denying the Quranic truth of Allah's promise to Abraham.<br>If you dont believe me, then read the commentary of every scholar on the verse and they will say that Allah promised Imams/Leaders from Abraham's offspring.<br>And it is a fact that there were Imams from Abraham's offspring. When did Allah not fulfill Abraham's prayers for anything?<p><br>

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And as for the Hazar Imam not being who he says he is, I am not open to that fact. He has claimed to be the Bearer of Allah's Noor on countless occasions and his guidance has taken our community leaps and bounds. I currently have NO REASON to question the claims of my beloved Hazar Imam.

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So if your community starts having problems, will you desert your leader?

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It really depends. There would have to be something happen that showed he really want the Imam.

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It really depends. There would have to be something happen that showed he really wasnt the Imam.

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<br>Doesn't make much sense to me. Why should faith in a leader be dependant on the material success of the community? Surely if you truly and loyally believe in someone's divine leadership then you should stick by him in good times and tough times.<p>Another question: Logically, how is it possible for the Quran to be used to justify the leader when (according to Nizaris) the leader's word supersedes the Quran?<p>

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Nizari,<p>Since you have a closed mind, then why waste your time and ours for a debate, the outcome of which you will never agree too.<p>I have wasted enough of my time debating with you.

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<br>Here is anothre Interpreted Translation <p>2:124<p>And [remember this:] when his sustainer tried Abraham by [His] commandments and letter fulfilled them (100)<p> He said: “Behold , I shall make the a leader of men.” <p>Abraham Asked: “And [will Thou make leaders] of my offspring as well?”<p>[God] Answered: “My covenant does not embrace evil doers”. (101)<p>Comment 101:<p>This passage, read in conjunction with the two preceding verses, refutes the contention of the children of Israel that by virtue of their descent from Abraham, whom God made “a leader of men”, they are “God’s chosen people”. The Quran makes it clear that exalted status of Abraham was not something that automatically confer a comparable status on his physical descendants, and certainly not on sinners among them.<br>-------<br>Copied from<br>Page 26<p>The Message of Quran-Translated and explained <p>by <p>Muhammad Asad. Dar-al-Andalus, Gibralter<br>-----<p>My Comments:<p>M. Asad's last sentance in his comment "and certainly not on sinners among them."<p>Do you think it would apply to Hazir Imaam, His father and Grandpa.?<p><p><p><p><br>

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Br Muslim First<p>I had objection on Hazir Imam claim for the imamate exactly for the reason cited by you above...<p>"M. Asad's last sentance in his comment "and certainly not on sinners among them."<br>Do you think it would apply to Hazir Imaam, His father and Grandpa.?<p>But after thinking it over thoroughly, I realize something else. It is not easy to find Hazir Imam to have ever committed any sin because Ismailis have a different concept of Sin and Sawab(goodness) and an Ismaili Br explained in one post...that Hazir Imam must be infallible in the matter of religion but not necessarily in his lifestyle.<p>And since anything Hazir Imam says, go in the Ismaili community. I, a non-aga khani person find it difficult to built love and respect for the Hazir Imam without having any intellectual and rational consideration. Maybe the only way to understand their belief is if you are born into it.