Women's lofty & previleged status under Islam

[Guest]

<br>Dear sisters: How many times have you heard this claim "sisters, you should be very happy that you have a very high status and a very privileged position in our religion" by the bearded ones in the mosques? <p>God alone knows what high status and which privileged position they talk about....<p>To be declared in the holy books that we are deficient in intelligence and that most of us will go to hell for being ungrateful to our husbands; and that we will make the big majority of the hell's population?<p>To be told to share the husband with three other wives and many concubines, sex slaves and captive women which his right hand posses? <p>To be divorced by him at the drop of a hat by just his proclaiming 3 times "I divorce you" and we not having the same right to divorce him? <p>Husband getting 72 perpetually virgin beautiful houris with big eyes and swelling bosoms in the paradise and we getting the same old husband and share him with the 72 voluptuous houris? (Believe me sisters; he will be so busy there with the lovely houris that the only time he will see you will be in the hallways when he is going from one houri’s room to another houri’s room). <p>To be disciplined by the husband by being beaten up by him with scourge (lash) and green sticks? (Unless you are into the kinky stuff and actually enjoy the beatings).. Being raped and then be stoned to death for reporting it because you need 4 male witnesses to prove your innocence otherwise you yourself get accused of adultery? (Your only chance of finding 4 male witnesses is that if the attacker was of very low IQ or was really drunk and attacked you in the broad daylight in front of a bunch of degenerate horny men who watched and cheered and are later willing to testify) Being wrongly accused of adultery by a conniving husband and be stoned for it because he does not need 4 male witnesses if he swears 4 times himself? <p>Being married at the age of 9 years to a much older man because it is sunna? To submit to him every time he desires you even if he wants it on the back of a camel, if he gets an untimely urge? <p>Being cursed all night by thousands of angels if you refuse him even for a genuine reason? (What a boring job for angels who are assigned to watch your bedroom, always waiting for the action, unless of course they enjoy watching; in that case they have a reason to be disappointed and pissed by your refusal).<p>To be declared half a person as witness in court or inheriting property? <p>To be asked to stay at home by scriptures and only leave home if husband permits; that too fully covered by a tent like garment even if it is scorching hot (hey, sweating is good for you as it opens skin pores, besides the tent covering protects you from the hot sun and elements which keeps you fair and beautiful; sisters you need all the help you can get to compete with the other wives and concubines). <p>If you want to know more about your great status and privileges please check out Dr. Ali Sina's website "faithfreedom.org", or Parvin Darabi site "homa.org"<br>

[Guest]

Br Hafeez<br>What you mentioned above is not Islam but bad Muslims practice.<p>I do have some comment.<p>To be disciplined by the husband by being beaten up by him with scourge (lash) and green sticks? <br>>> There is nothing In Islam that says Muslim women can't fight (strike) back. <p><br>Being raped and then be stoned to death for reporting it because you need 4 male witnesses to prove your innocence otherwise you yourself get accused of adultery? <br>>> If a women is raped it is not her fault. And if she is pregnant it is also not her fault. And if anyone do not believe her word then that person should find 2 witness who can support his word or the accuser will get 80 lashes himself and if he want to condemn this women to adultery he need to find 4 male witness or he himself will get 80 lashes just making a claim or a rumor. This is how it is supposed to work not the other way round.

[Guest]

>>>What you mentioned above is not Islam but bad Muslims practice.<<<<p>Has any Islamic country have got it right or correct muslim practise? Pls advise!<p>>>>>I do have some comment.<p>To be disciplined by the husband by being beaten up by him with scourge (lash) and green sticks? <br>>> There is nothing In Islam that says Muslim women can't fight (strike) back. <<<<<p>Does the quran or sunah says or confirms that? Or, is it your opinion? What would happen if a women were to fight back? Pls advise.<p>

[Guest]

Has any Islamic country have got it right or correct Muslim practice? Pls advise!<br>>> There is no Islamic country in the world today. Majority of people has always got Islam wrongly. And this might also include me. <p>Does the quran or sunah says or confirms that? Or, is it your opinion? What would happen if a women were to fight back? Pls advise.<p>>> I don't understand this question Br Hafeez. It is very logically to strike back. Al-Quran did mention an eye for an eye, ears for ears and a limb for limb.<p>Did our prophet ever abuse any woman? Do you think it is allowed to abuse any woman? We are not even allowed to beat our children. Woman should have the courage to stand up and fight. They should be educated and have their own professional job. And Muslim man should treat their wife like their equal partner. Prophet (sa) said that the best Muslim man is the one who is best to his wife. And the prophet also said, "Don’t beat your wife like animal!"

[Guest]

Br Hafeez,<br>You have posted a lot of thing that I believe you can find in Islamic books if you search hard enough. Our main source for Islam is Al-Quran and our rational mind.

[Guest]

>>> You have posted a lot of thing that I believe you can find in Islamic books if you search hard enough. Our main source for Islam is Al-Quran and our rational mind.<<<<p>Dear sis jinx,<br>Whatever I 've posted (main post) can be susbstantiated back to the quran or sahih hadeeths; so, when you say all muslims are wrong in their practise - baffles me. Wrong from the inception of islam or, Have the teachings of quran & sunnah re: women, for example, do not hold water anymore and are seriously out-dated?<p>>>>>I don't understand this question Br Hafeez. It is very logically to strike back. Al-Quran did mention an eye for an eye, ears for ears and a limb for limb.<<<<<p>Strike back at the adversary, not at one's husband. Plus - the husband is merely exercising his God-given rights of 'discipling his spouse' under quran & sunnah. Does 'honour-Killing' ring a bell?<p>I am totally with you that women & men should be equal in religion & worldly matter but it will NEVER happen in a theocracy because I do not see an Ijthihad happening that will enable a "re-interpretation of current islamic laws". Equality can only happen in a democratic system where human rights supercede religious laws and that include the Kothari laws.

[Guest]

Islam, like almost all regligions, with a few honourable exceptions, is at its core a system for continuation and legitimization of male dominance. The best part of the whole deal is, after centuries of subjugation the subjugated have been conditioned to believe it is for their own good. Hijab is supposed to be liberating, yeah right, like living in a prison is freedom.<p> Another grand observation about the system is, after a few generations of being in place, it pretty much becomes self perpetuating. Like animals which have always been in a zoo and cant be left in the wild because they do not know how to fend for themselves, women in traditionally Islamic socities cannot handle the freedom any more. Moreover, the biggest subjugators most often happen to be women themselves. They give tacit approval to their sons when they abuse their wives. They are the ones who often are most vocally abusive when a woman does something that challenges the status quo. Again, this isn't something peculiar to Islam, it happens in all patriarchal socities to some extent. Though Islam is among the only greater (as in number of people practicing it) religons which practice discrimination against females on such a large scale. And I believe this is what will lead to its downfall eventually.

[Guest]

nausicaa,<br>what is a kothari bohri women's Status under religion & worldly matters?<p>---Moreover, the biggest subjugators most often happen to be women themselves. ---<p>Yep! Very true!<br>And, the loudest supporters of the sharia'h that suppresses them.

[Guest]

How about it Beavis, now you are fighting with a woman to prove that her status is not good enough in Islam!!! And best of all, beavis blames the woman!!

[Guest]

<br>Beavis wants women half nacked like HI's second.<p>He wants Muslim women to merry like his HI's daughter.<p>He thinks Lesbian women can be practicing Islmaili (non) Muslim.<p>He want woment to date like HI's sisters and daughter. Testing----Testing---- Testing.<p>This is the ideal image for Ismaili Women.<p>Is that so, Beavis.<p><br>

[Guest]

Who's beavis? Is this some kind of an inside joke I am not getting?<p>-N

[Guest]

hafeez,<p><I>What is a kothari bohri women's Status under religion & worldly matters?<?I><br><P>From my rather limited interaction with kotharis I think I can say that their status under religion is pretty low. Though I should also add that most of them seem to be happy with that or if they aren't they certainly dont show it. I didn't get what you mean by second part of your question, "status under worldly matters"?<p>I should mention that my experience with kothari bohri women is very limited so the above comments may be off.

[Guest]

nausicaa<br>Thanks for responding.<p>The only thing I also know about Bohras are from this site and from what i have heard, specially about how the bohri women are treated during the period of "bereavement/mourning" when they are forced into a corner completely cut off from all contacts for 3-4 months. <p>By 'worldly' I mean:<br> are the kothari bohra women allowed to persue careers & education?<br>Can a bohri women become a leader over men in bohri institutions and /or companies?<br>Is bohri women word equal to a man or is it 1/2?<p>By 'religious' - I mean:<br>can they lead prayers or give bayans, waez or lead in dzikr or tasbih. Become religious leaders par excellence!

[Guest]

Hey Beavis,<p>Why don't you ask you HI and see if he will nominate Imamat to his daughter instead of his son? That way we'll know if you can walk the walk or if you just talk the talk.

[Guest]

Nausicaa,<p>Beavis and Butthead - Hafeez and Nizari!!

[Guest]

<br>"Why don't you ask you HI and see if he will nominate Imamat to his daughter instead of his son? That way we'll know if you can walk the walk or if you just talk the talk."<p>Why not? She has HI's seed in her and also Chiristian's seed too.!<p><br>

[Guest]

hafeez,<p><I>are the kothari bohra women allowed to persue careers & education?</I><br><P>I know quite a few bohri women (not many kotharis though) who are quite well educated. I guess this has more to do with the socioeconomic strata that the family belongs to than whether they are Kotharis or not.<br><P><I>Can a bohri women become a leader over men in bohri institutions and /or companies? Is bohri women word equal to a man or is it 1/2?</I><br><P> Given that most bohra institutions are male dominated, they would face more hurdles on their way to the top but in my knowledge there are no formal rules keeping them out. To be fair, the bohra community is pretty large and kotharis come in many beard lengths and rida sizes. To say all of them are obscurantist would be unfair to them. Sometime back, someone told me about a Bohri couple he ran into at a Las Vegas casino, in their topi and rida and everything. So if they can take their wives along when they go to see the Vegas showgirls, I guess some of them are a bit more liberal than the rest of the community. At least among progressives I know of quite a few women leading various causes among the community. Do NOT confuse bohras with the Taliban.<br><P><I>can they lead prayers or give bayans, waez or lead in dzikr or tasbih. Become religious leaders par excellence!</I><br><P>Not allowing women to lead prayers over men is not specifically a bohra practise. Neither Islam, nor its predecessors (Christianity and Judaism) allow it.<br>

[Guest]

Just a side:<br>Majority of the marriage, social, etc committees of the bohras are run by women. Most smaller madrassas are run by women.<p>I would also remind you all that the tasbih you do in salat is a tasbih of the Prophet given to Fatima Zahra.<p><br>The iddah period is the sunnah and is done to determine pregancy and give time for the person to mourn the death of the loved one.<p>"are the kothari bohra women allowed to persue careers & education?"<p>---Majority of bohra women in the West at least go to college. In the East, it is customary for women to go until high school. Few can afford to send their girls to college.<p>"Can a bohri women become a leader over men in bohri institutions and /or companies?"<p>---I know of many bohra women who own their own companies and are charge of men. There is nothing saying they cannot.<p>"can they lead prayers or give bayans, waez or lead in dzikr or tasbih. Become religious leaders par excellence!"<p>---I would remind you that most bohra men are taught the basics of Islam by their mothers. Leading prayers with men in not allowed in Islam. Bayans, wa'az, dhikr, tasbih..yes, typically with a women only group.<p>The current official "book of salat and ibadat" was compiled by Aminasahibah (ra) late wife Sayedna (tus).

[Guest]

correction:<br>Sayedna (tus) late wife was Amatuallahsahibah (ra) not Amina.<p>sorry.