How did the Messiah son of Mary really die???

[Guest]

If he was not crucified then who was the actual person being crucified?<br>Did Jesus die a natural death or was he raised alive?<br>Or was he crucified but not killed on the cross?<br>Or he was physically crucified but his soul and his message were not?<p>Plz express your views...

[Guest]

1. Judas?<br>2. He was raised, not very sure where he is.<br>3. NO<br>4. NO<p>"That they said in boast We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary The Messenger of Allah But they killed him not Nor crucified him. Only a likeness of that Was shown to them." (4:157)

[Guest]

"That they said in boast We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary The Messenger of Allah But they killed him not Nor crucified him. Only a likeness of that Was shown to them." (4:157) <p> - could this just be an allegory? If you think about it, the Jews only crucified and killed Jesus physically, not his soul, and not his message. They thought they had done away with him and humiliated him, but his teachings and his message went on forever.<p>I am not sure. I dont really have an interpretation for this, that is why i am asking.

[Guest]

Jesus christ was neither crucified nor killed by the romans. Only a likeness of that was shown to them. This statement of the quran is crystal clear and we have Nizari raising doubts.<p>His teachings and his message were corrupeted and that is why we had prophet mohammed (pbuh) sent to us.

[Guest]

There is a book by Sheikh Ahmed Deedat called Crucifixion or Cruci - fiction<p>Read it and it will answer your queries. I think it is available free of cost.

[Guest]

I dont want to cause trouble, i am justing posing logical points.<br>The reality of the situation is that there is no other proof that Jesus was not crucified. Other sources apart from the Bible as well as archeological evidence do not show a Cruci Fiction. And the Quran cannot be wrong. God tells us to use our intellects. Therefore what we read in the Quran regarding Jesus can be an allegory.<br>

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That is the difference between a muslim and a munafik. I don't need proof, the quran is enough for me. You need proof.<p>You decide.

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If you still want proof, read the book by Sheikh Ahmed Deedat mentioned above and you will get ample proof. One needs to be open minded though to understand and I know that is one virtue you lack.

[Guest]

Br Nizari<br>"..they killed him not Nor crucified him"<p>What other meaning could this verse be implying?<p>He was not on the cross, and he was not killed, IMHO.

[Guest]

According to Ahmad Deedat's book, Jesus was on the cross, but he did not die.<p>yet the Quran says "Nor crucified him".<br>So what really happened, who was on the cross and what other proof is there?

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Nizari,<p>I will cut you some slack. Go ahead and believe what you want to.

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With due respect, did Ahmad Deedat really said that?<p>I have heard ppl comment that Ahmad Deedat sometimes uses Bible to win his argument/debate not necessarily from Islamic resources.

[Guest]

"..they killed him not Nor crucified him" HQ<p>Here's my two bits:<p>How can you kill the Spirit/Light/Nur of Allah that was in Jesus (Holy Quran)? The Light of Allah is eternal.<p>It was Jesus on the cross but he did not die, his body or outer form died. <br>"His Spirit was lifted up and taken into Allah" (Holy Quran)

[Guest]

Why did the quran have to mention that? If you look at it from the Ismaili point of view then nobody on earth will ever die!! Cause their spirits live on forever!!!!<p>

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Do you really die when you die?<p>According to the Orthodoxy, we shall all be "physically" resurrected and most will go to hell for eternity and some like Muslim First, Qiyam, anajmi will go to heaven to be pleasured for all eternity by 72 perpetual houris.

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72 is the minimum which you can expect to get. I am expecting to get more.

[Guest]

I would tend to go to Hafeez's point of view<p>BUT, would Allah really let the Jews brutally kill and crucify his annointed Messenger Jesus?<br>I hope not.<p>But i remember reading the Bible that when Jesus prayed for one of the last times, Allah sent an angel to strengthen him. Perhaps this is what helped Jesus take the punishment on the cross, and, like according to Deedhat, he lived.

[Guest]

Nizari,<p>You are amazing. First you raise doubts as to whether he was killed or crucified even though the quran says he was neither killed nor crucified. Then because Ahmed Deedat says he was not killed you now believe that he was not killed. The word of the quran was not enough for you. The word of the quran is still not enough for you when it says that he was not crucified.<p>Believe me no hazar Imam is going to save you guys. May Allah have mercy on your souls<p>

[Guest]

Anajmi<p>SHUT THE HELL UP!!! <br>NOOOOOBODY CARES WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY!!!<p>you dont know anything, and you never have anything to contribute to any thread.<p>So just keep your mouth shut and let some more intellectually aware ppl explain their points of view.<p>All you ever do is bud in and annoy everyone.<p>SO KEEP YOUR DAMN MOUTH SHUT!

[Guest]

hafeez posted 04-03-2002 10:57 AM ET (US) <br>-----------------------------------------<br>It was Jesus on the cross but he did not die, his body or outer form died. <p>>> Why do you think it was Jesus on the cross? It could be anyone.<p>Al-Quran says"..they killed him not Nor crucified him" <p>1. No one killed him<br>2. And he was not on the cross.

[Guest]

To add something <p>If you say "his body or outer form died"<br>Then Allah swt in the book will clearly say so. But Allah said "He was not killed" means it ruled out everything outer form dead and also dead in terms of soul. <p>We also know that soul never dies so the only thing left is death in body sense.

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Nizari,<p>I've f--ked people before, but nobody shouted that hard. Man, I must've really given it to you.

[Guest]

Sis Jinx<p>3:7 - He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - AND OTHER WHICH ARE ALLEGORICAL. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.<p> - scholar say that 2/3 of Quran is allegorical. Unfortunately the real knowledge of these is with Allah and the Imams. <br> - The verse concerning Jesus could be allegorical, we simply dont know.<br>

[Guest]

3:7 - He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture WHEREIN ARE CLEAR REVELATIONS - THEY ARE THE SUBSTANCE OF THE BOOK - and other which are allegorical. BUT THOSE IN WHOSE HEARTS IS DOUBT PURSUE, FORSOOTH, THAT WHICH IS ALLEGORICAL seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.<p>

[Guest]

Lo and Behold, the holy Quran has spoken.

[Guest]

<br>Wow br.anajmi<p>Good 'Glass half empty, Glass half full stuff'<p>You can emphasize anything you want. For deviants it is ‘ALLEGORICAL’ which counts and for believers it is ‘CLEAR REVELATIONS’ which counts. <p>

[Guest]

<br>Nizari/asif khan/hafeez wrote: "- scholar say that 2/3 of Quran is allegorical. Unfortunately the real knowledge of these is with Allah and the Imams. <br>- The verse concerning Jesus could be allegorical, we simply dont know."<br>------<p>Why does not Hazir Imaam himself tell us? He is speaking Quran!. Is he Not? He can settle the argument in split second.<p>If he does then his devient followers will have nothing to argue about.<p>"----BUT THOSE IN WHOSE HEARTS IS DOUBT PURSUE, FORSOOTH, THAT WHICH IS ALLEGORICAL seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it."<p><p>

[Guest]

Burn baby burn! Goes one song and appropriately describes the two stooges(who is the third?):anajmi & mf. I 've never come across such pathetic morons in my life.<br>All they care, on this board, is to spoil any intellectual discussion. Is it any wonder that most of their kind look & represent the ummah as being the "lowest of the low"!<p>To DEAR JInx,<br>Well, the quran in UNCLEAR or incomplete on this topic! Maybe, it should have taken 'care' to explain it further! Since, it doesn't do then all we can do is hypothesize! <p><br>

[Guest]

<br>hafeez/a k/nizari wrote:- "Well, the quran in UNCLEAR or incomplete on this topic! Maybe, it should have taken 'care' to explain it further! Since, it doesn't do then all we can do is hypothesize !"<br>-----<br>Why hypothesize?<p>Ask Hazir Imaam. He is Quran-e-natiq. Is he not? He should tell you.<p><p> <br>

[Guest]

<br>"All they care, on this board, is to spoil any intellectual discussion"<p>----<p>All nizari's do on this board is extoll their demi-god (Hazir Imaam). Depth of their "intellectual discussion" leads to 'Hazir Imaam'.<p>