he may enjoy long life

[incredible]

Huzurala (tus) delivered waaz mubarak on this historic visit to Yemen 50 years on from his first visit as Mazoon after which Syedna Taher Saifuddin (ra) bestowed the honorific of ‘Mansur al-Yemen’.

In those 50 years there has been a sea-change in the Mumineen of Yemen in every facet of their lives including both their worldly and spiritual affairs. Despite hundreds of years in which no Dai had visited this land, Huzurala’s (tus) repeated visits and benevelont eye have led to their material and religious fortunes having marched forward in keeping with those of al of the rest of Aalam-e-Imaan.

All of Huzurala’s (tus) visits to Al-Yemen have seen remarkable, nay miraculous events take place that were hitherto unthinkable. From that very first visit in 1961 (1381) which in itself was deemed not possible even to take place, the subsequent revealing of previously hidden qabr mubaraks of certain Duat Mutlaqeen (ra), the building of qubbas, roads, providing electricity and water in the remote mountains of the Haraaz, schools, masjids etc to this visit which has been marked by the completion and ifititah of the qubba mubaraka of Syedna Idris Imaduddin (ra) 19th Dail Mutlaq. Found near the top of the highest peak in the Haraaz, some 9000 feet above sea-level, Syedna Idris’s (ra) resting place is near a strategic military point. Time and again the qabr mubarak has suffered destruction, ziyarat has often been restricted and the road has only just been levelled out yet on the 15th of Shawwal nearly 8000 Mumineen are estimated to have congregated there for the iftitah of the resplendent Qubba Mubarakah. With its signature dome and golden spires the milk white structure was a shining beacon atop the Haraaz mountains.

Then, on Saturday 17th Shawwalul Mukarram, Huzurala (tus) addressed the congregated Mumineen in Al-Hutaib al-Mubarak In his waaz mubarak Molana (tus) cited the verses of Surah Al-Nahl (The Bee) in which it speaks of the bees that find their dwelings in various places including mountains. Amirul Mumineen (as), Molana Ali (as) is the ‘Yasuub al-nahl’ (Queen Bee) whom the rest of the hive follow wherever she goes. Similarly Mumineen follow the Duat wherever they go to dwell and here in the Yemen the Duat Mutlaqeen found abode in the mountains- indeed the Duat are those mountains mentioned in the Quran and it is in them, in their hearts, that Mumineen have been given sanctuary.

Huzurala (tus) spoke of the miracle shown by Molana Ali (as) in which he tells a mountain to turn to silver, then to gold, then an army then back to stone. Like the mountain in this miracle the Duat follow the command of Imam ul-Zaman and manifest themselves howsoever he wishes them to. Elaborating on the army Molana (tus) told us to hold true to the values of unity as found amongst soldiers rather than divisiveness and to . In this context Huzurala (tus) related the battle of Uhud and how Amirul Mumineen (as) declined to leave Rasulallah’s (sa) side even after the rest of the army had taken flight. Molana Ali (as) then single handledly repelled the enemy forces and the legend of ‘La fata illa Ali la saifa illa Zulfiqar‘ was heralded from the heavens.

Molana (tus) spoke of the ‘waves like mountains’ referring to the huge suffering and aversities that Awliyullah (as) have faced in order to ensure our salvation. Molana (tus) related the suffering of Molatena Fatema (as) – the door slammed upon her, the lashes and the blows rained upon her, the shahadat of Molana Ali (as) and Imam Hasan (as) and then the ultimate sacrifices made by Imam Husain and the shohadaa kiraam in Karbala.

As Nuh nabi’s (as) Ark came to rest upon Mount Juudi so too does Imam Husain’s (as) ’safina’ finally land at ‘Juudi’ – the word ‘juud’ meaning altruism, this being the selfless giving of Imam Husain (as) and the shohodaa.

Huzurala’s (tus) waaz mubarak had been entirely in Arabic until the final few minutes in which he spoke in Lisan-ul-Dawat and to end he briefly repeated Imam Husain’s (as) shahadat once again.

During the course of the waaz Molana (tus) prayed that he may enjoy long life to which we can reply, in chorus with the angels; “Aameen!”

http://akhbar.mumineen.org/2010/09/26/w ... f-duat-ra/

simply mind blowing I thought for a momeen this life is a torture and hereafter life is true everlasting enjoyment.

is there any hadis from ahlul bayt or any imammain or dai saying "they may enjoy long life on earth"?

[aqs]

simply mind blowing I thought for a momeen this life is a torture and hereafter life is true everlasting enjoyment.

is there any hadis from ahlul bayt or any imammain or dai saying "they may enjoy long life on earth"?

his(tus) every breadth is Najaat of Mumineen, till now it was jamaat, kothar and Qasre ali you were questioning, now you have directly started with Syedna(tus). Still you are scared of your conscience to directly accuse things so doing it in the thin veil of asking for justification from Hadis and Seerate Ahle bait, gradually you will come out of this guilt and their will be no difference between you and your new masters.

[incredible]

I have nothing to do with wahabis or progs or who ever they are but it just made me laugh for a second and then it made me wonder how come a religious identity like syedna pray to enjoy worldly life.this is so against the teaching of quraan.but any ways things does not looks good from my point of view.

[aqs]

I have nothing to do with wahabis or progs or who ever they are but it just made me laugh for a second and then it made me wonder how come a religious identity like syedna pray to enjoy worldly life.this is so against the teaching of quraan.but any ways things does not looks good from my point of view.

you missed the first line of my post

his(tus) every breadth is Najaat of Mumineen

now you can only understand this line when you believe in him(tus) other wise be happy that you have also found the slip in religion like your brethren

[anajmi]

According to popular tradition, the prophet was given a choice before he passed away. Did he want to live a life of glory or did he want to return to his maker. He chose to return to his maker. Imam Hussain, according to bohra tradition, was given a similar choice and he chose to return to his maker too. All great people have chosen the hereafter over the life of this earth except those that are afraid of the hereafter.

[Humsafar]

now you can only understand this line when you believe in him(tus) other wise be happy that you have also found the slip in religion like your brethren

What exactly do you mean by "believe in him". Is he a deity? Islam asks you to believe in Allah. Period. And what is this "najaat for mumins with every breath"? Even the Prophet did not claim such a thing. These kind of things are talked about by people who have faith in their guru or bhagwan - which, I might add, is not wrong in the context of their beliefs. But here we are talking about Islamic faith and tradition where magic and miracle are as far removed as from our doctrine as idol-worshipping. Maybe it's time you took a pause and wondered how far your sabaks have taken you from the basic tenets of Islam or even that of Ismaili/Mustalian faith.

[aqs]

now you can only understand this line when you believe in him(tus) other wise be happy that you have also found the slip in religion like your brethren

What exactly do you mean by "believe in him". Is he a deity? Islam asks you to believe in Allah. Period. And what is this "najaat for mumins with every breath"? Even the Prophet did not claim such a thing. These kind of things are talked about by people who have faith in their guru or bhagwan - which, I might add, is not wrong in the context of their beliefs. But here we are talking about Islamic faith and tradition where magic and miracle are as far removed as from our doctrine as idol-worshipping. Maybe it's time you took a pause and wondered how far your sabaks have taken you from the basic tenets of Islam or even that of Ismaili/Mustalian faith.

salaam,

I have taken a pause long back, i think its time progs take a pause and that too a very long one.

I will give you few points to ponder upon

1) In your(official position of Progs) if Dai is corrupt, why has Allah played such a cruel joke on you.
2) why has Hidden Imam not come out to help you against the tormentors.
3) with all the new technologies available at your fingertips why are you not able to bring more people in your fold on the contrary people are leaving you by hordes.
4)though you have cried yourself hoarse on the all the corruption in dawat but still people are lining up to pay more and more. Where have you gone wrong.
5) why is second generation of progs not coming in front to give any fight which their forefathers started.
6)almost every one in the fold believes that you guys dont exist any more, dont get delusional by few sympathizers who write on this website under diff pseudonyms.
7) why the reform movement is a spent force as compared to when you guys started.
8 complete loss of religious identity for your people

these will be enough for you to take up in your next annual meeting attended by few oldies

[SBM]

Welcome back Aqs.

[ghulam muhammed]

In your(official position of Progs) if Dai is corrupt, why has Allah played such a cruel joke on you.

And you think that Allah (swt) has not played a much more cruel joke on you ?

why has Hidden Imam not come out to help you against the tormentors.

The concept of a hidden Imam itself is questionable and the logic behind it is difficult for abdes to understand bcoz in the final version of the brain washing sessions (sabaks), the dai claims that he in fact is the actual Imam. I know you will rubbish this claim bcoz what happens in the closed door sessions is highly secretive just like what is prevailant in some other cults, hence the cults dont have the official stand on such matters.

with all the new technologies available at your fingertips why are you not able to bring more people in your fold on the contrary people are leaving you by hordes.

The same yardstick applies with regard to the dai's followers. The type of new technologies that are available to the dai are much much more then what is available to the progs, what with the the type of money power and muscle power that kothar has at its disposal. Even then the dai has failed miserably in his prime duty of inviting people to his faith. The numbers speak for themselves, kothar has been claiming since a decade that it has over a million followers although e-jamat records show much less. How many people have embraced bohraism in the last 100 years ? Tally this figure with that of progs and you will see that the dai is way behind.

)though you have cried yourself hoarse on the all the corruption in dawat but still people are lining up to pay more and more. Where have you gone wrong.

Not only the people but even the media has exposed corruption of international religous leaders like Asaram bapu, Sathya sai baba, swami aseenanand etc etc and yet people still keep flocking to them so as per your logic there is nothing wrong with them. Where have the media and anti-corruption crusaders gone wrong ?

almost every one in the fold believes that you guys dont exist any more, dont get delusional by few sympathizers who write on this website under diff pseudonyms.

Almost everyone accross the globe believe and have statistics to prove that bohras are an INSIGNIFICANT lot with a population of hardly 0.00001% of the Islamic world so you dont get disillusioned by a few dumb, cowardly and scared slaves in the community who have no say in the international arena.

why the reform movement is a spent force as compared to when you guys started.

Why is the dawoodi bohras a spent force as compared to when it started some 900 years ago? If the dai can boast of having ONLY 6 lakh followers in 900 years then what is the average number of converts on a yearly basis ? Compare that with the percentage of the population that has grown in the last 900 years in this world. Also state the number of converts during the era of the last 2 dais and also the ones who have left the fold and you will find that the number of people who have left are much much more then the ones who have embraced bohraism. Although I doubt if there was even a single person who embraced bohraism during the rule of the 51st and 52nd dai.

complete loss of religious identity for your people

Due to the mockery of the solemn month of Mohurrum, due to the financial exploitation of bohras in the name of zakat and wajebat, due to the qadambosi and idol worshipping of the dai, due to the selling of so called religous titles like Mulla, Sheikhs, NKD and MKD, due to the compulsion of accepting the 'bond of slavery' (misaq), due to issuing 'jannat permits' (ruku chitthi), due to selling masalla space in the house of God, due to not giving religous sanctity to Masjids unless hefty sums are paid to dai, due to selling Mohurrum sermons to the jamat which bids the highest amount (running into crores)... there is COMPLETE LOSS OF RELIGOUS IDENTITY FOR YOUR ABDE SYEDNAS.

these will be enough for you to take up in your next annual meeting attended by few oldies

These will be enough for you take up in your next darees/majlis/bayan attended by the oversized zaadas.

[aqs]

@GM,

In haste of replying you missed the point which i am sure Hamsafar will not, if you go through them again they were lased with a genuine concern as i am against corruption of any form at any level and believe that this movement could have been a whistle blower for corruption but its in a sorry state to say the least

[guy_sam2005]

GM,
Out of 7 children,which 1 do u find oversized?

[Al Zulfiqar]

1) In your(official position of Progs) if Dai is corrupt, why has Allah played such a cruel joke on you.
in fact the joke is on blind fanatics like you that you have such a corrupt dai and his even more corrupt family
2) why has Hidden Imam not come out to help you against the tormentors.
reformists are no longer tormented. its abde slaves like yrselves who are being insulted and looted left and right and from whom salaam is being collected in the name of hidden imam. in which invisible account btw, is this amaanat of imam being deposited??
3) with all the new technologies available at your fingertips why are you not able to bring more people in your fold on the contrary people are leaving you by hordes.
let me play the typical abde card on you, do you have any statistics to support yr claim? btw, which site are you on? an abde sycophantic site or a free and fully active reformist site, which allows bigots and syedna apologists like you to come and freely advance yr views?
4)though you have cried yourself hoarse on the all the corruption in dawat but still people are lining up to pay more and more. Where have you gone wrong.
which people? morally corrupted and brainwashed people who have been cleverly indoctrinated to believe in the cult propaganda they are being bombarded 24/7? immoral and unethical people who are buying false titles to prop up their egos and wash their guilt? can you show us one really aalim sheikh from such buyers of titles? majority dont even know arabic, cannot lead prayers or be upheld as persons of integrity.
5) why is second generation of progs not coming in front to give any fight which their forefathers started.
attend one of the reformist jamaats, then pass judgement.
6)almost every one in the fold believes that you guys dont exist any more, dont get delusional by few sympathizers who write on this website under diff pseudonyms.
your statement what 'everyone in the fold' believes, doesnt matter, esp. when the majority are fools and kafirs who do sajda and sing sajda tujhe waji hai, refer to dai as haqiqi kaaba and attribute to him powers over and above Allah.
7) why the reform movement is a spent force as compared to when you guys started.
if it doesnt matter, why are you wasting yr time on a reformist site, trying to justify yr defense of criminals?
8 complete loss of religious identity for your people
the pot calling the kettle black? what is the religious identity of bohras? a cult that worships in syedna and indulges in kufr? a pseudo muslim cult which misuses the name of islam to hide its sinister agenda?

these will be enough for you to take up in your next annual meeting attended by few oldies

these slaps will be enough for you to ponder upon while having yr next 2 kharas, 2 mithas jaman after doing purjosh maatam.

[ultofanatic]

Physically when you compare the Abdes with Progressives, there may be a huge difference. You have not counted those who have been mentally pushed towards the progressive doctrine. Go to the different cities and towns - talk to the ordinary bohras. Everyone has a sob story. Everyone has suffered at the hands of the local jamaat or Aamil. Outwardly things look hunky dory. But there is so much frustration in peoples' minds and most of the populace is so agitated that there will be a revolt once the balance tilts.

The only thing standing between these frustrated bohras and a revolt is the love and admiration they have for Aqa moula (TUS). Another thing that can tilt the scales are the women folk. Most bohra men are kept in check by the fear of having to fight with their wives, mothers & sisters at home. Most of them care a damn about attending dareeses, majlises and the umpteen chest beating sessions.

Now, there are murmurs of women too complaining in fits and starts. Once they come out with their anger, things are really going to get hot. The kothar would surely have learned their lessons from what happened in Udaipur. Imagine this on a larger scale and you have a proper revolution.

Don't push the bohras too far.

[Humsafar]

aqs, welcome back. Thank you for giving us the points to ponder. And I can see that it was nice way deflect discussion off track so that you won't have to answer difficult questions. One of that questions is how can you justify "sajada" to dai in terms of the Quran and our source books. And more importantly, how can the Dai even allow it (considering he is an enlightened man and enlightened men should be suffused with humility).

Now, to your distractions (points to ponder), Brs GM and Al Zulfiqar have responded excellently. But here are my thoughts...

1) In your(official position of Progs) if Dai is corrupt, why has Allah played such a cruel joke on you.

What joke! As AZ says, the joke is on you. The Sultan and his family are laughing all the way to the (swiss) bank!!

2) why has Hidden Imam not come out to help you against the tormentors.

The Sultan is in commune with the Imam, so he should know better. From a realistic and common sense point of view, it would seem that the Imam is also colluding with the Sultan to torment abdes.

3) with all the new technologies available at your fingertips why are you not able to bring more people in your fold on the contrary people are leaving you by hordes.

By hordes? Technology has nothing to do with any of this. Why abdes don't join reformists is oft discussed here - and the reason are many and the chief among them is apathy and lack of courage. My friend "bohri" has brilliantly captured the bohra reality in just two words "su karsoo". So long as Bohras keep saying that and feel hopeless and helpless nothing will change.

And just to make it clear, reformists do not want Bohras to join them as such. The objective of the movement is to create awareness among bohras and awaken them so that they themselves can become the vehicles of change. The reform movement does not intend to take over the management of the community. Our aim is to encourage every Bohra and every jamat to challenge the kothar and take charge of their own affairs.

4)though you have cried yourself hoarse on the all the corruption in dawat but still people are lining up to pay more and more. Where have you gone wrong.

Yes we have cried ourselves hoarse, and the reason we are not heard is because abdes are paralysed by "su karsoo". You ask us "Where have we gone wrong?" If you had any intellectual or moral honesty you would direct that question to yourself and abdes. Where have you all gone wrong? What's wrong with you people that day after day you keep submitting to your tormentors!!! Nowhere in history will you find a people so spineless and so frightened, unable to lift a finger against ritual humiliation and day light robbery. What the hell is wrong with you people????

5) why is second generation of progs not coming in front to give any fight which their forefathers started.

How many progs do you know? But the larger point is, corruption and injustice will never go unchallenged.

6)almost every one in the fold believes that you guys dont exist any more, dont get delusional by few sympathizers who write on this website under diff pseudonyms.

If they believe we don't exist then it's clear who is delusional. Like they can't hear us they can't even see us. The sympathisers are our great hope and support, they will ultimately be the trigger for change. The funny thing is that you still feel the need to come here and challenge the sypathisers whom you don't consider important.

7) why the reform movement is a spent force as compared to when you guys started.

You would like it to be a spent force, but it is not. Our effort and our momentum is the same but we can do little against the Great Wall of "Su karsoo"!!!

8 complete loss of religious identity for your people

AZ has given you a fitting reply, have nothing more to add.

[ghulam muhammed]

i am against corruption of any form at any level

Bro aqs,

So you admit that there is corruption in the religous establishment and you are against that in "any form at any level". Even a layman will admit that the dai is at the helm of affairs and by virtue of that HE is totally responsible for any wrongs done on his name. The only reason that he cannot name the perpetuators is that either he himself is a party to it or either he is too weak a dai. In either of the case he seems unfit for the job. And to have fear of any mortal human being other then Allah (swt) speaks volumes about his faith in Allah(swt).

I know that abdes will come out with a lame excuse "daawat ne chalava maate chup rehvu padhe chhe", so I think that Imam Hussain (a.s.) had a far bigger following but inspite of that He raised his voice against the evil powers and fought until death. Why cant the dai follow his example and the learn from the lessons of karbala, a historical event which he encashes upon by fooling/looting his followers. Please dont give the stereo typed argument of the 3 khalifas bcoz there is enough material to prove as to how history was twisted and distorted to justify the clergy's evils.

The dai's position is no better then that of Dawood Ibrahim bcoz if at all dawood wants to mend his ways and lead an honest life, he cannot do that due to the fear that his gang members wont approve of it and they will kill him bcoz he has reached a stage wherein the evil seeds sown by him have grown into tough trees, its like "sher ki savari", "agar sher ke upar se utre to sher khaa jayega".

[Al Zulfiqar]

bro. gm,

now watch this glib politician apologist try to gloss over your argument of the final blame resting at the door of syedna.

now he will say the usual crap of how he is supposed to know, he is 95 yrs old, he tries his best etc etc.. ad nauseum. when the sycophantic bohra sites and all the jamaats spread false miracles like syedna calling out to a sleeping african bohra to wake up and hide his money from robbers, when he called out to a bohra on the ground at the wtc on 9/11 to run, when he can see his abdes behind massive concrete pillars, and can cure cancers, heal gangrene infected legs and prevent blindness etc., then he is superman, a divine angel akin to allah, but when it comes to corruption, and that too from his own parasitic family and his hired goons (amils), then suddenly he is a feeble old man..???

all this mouthing of platitudes.. "will not tolerate corruption of any form at any level"., is as hypocritical as the syedna's exhortations to be faithful to the country you live in, blah blah blah ..crap. all this while his establishment not only concocts elaborate schemes to avoid paying taxes in every country that bohras reside in, but indulge in money laundering and extortion. people like aqs are true disciples of the syedna and his corrupt establishment.

their tactics are: confuse, obfuscate, divert, gloss over, use clever rhetoric and make double speak with forked tongues. goebbels had nothing on our wily clergy, even moawiyah was stupid not to realise as much as the last 2 syednas have done while exploiting the bankability of the martyrdom of imam hussain.

its easy to pick the pockets of fools while they senselessly beat themselves silly. thats called 'sensory diversion' in the lingo of professional pickpockets.

[aqs]

aqs, welcome back. Thank you for giving us the points to ponder. And I can see that it was nice way deflect discussion off track so that you won't have to answer difficult questions. One of that questions is how can you justify "sajada" to dai in terms of the Quran and our source books. And more importantly, how can the Dai even allow it (considering he is an enlightened man and enlightened men should be suffused with humility).

i have replied to this sajdah thing umpteen times and last time also you accused me in the end that for justifying it i am scratching the end of barrels, while conveniently ignoring the books i mentioned.

Now, to your distractions (points to ponder), Brs GM and Al Zulfiqar have responded excellently. But here are my thoughts...

1) In your(official position of Progs) if Dai is corrupt, why has Allah played such a cruel joke on you.

What joke! As AZ says, the joke is on you. The Sultan and his family are laughing all the way to the (swiss) bank!!

i had thought you to be intellectuality more forthcoming then the other individual nevertheless, we dont consider him corrupt its you so thats why the question why the joke of a corrupt dai by Allah on you as officially you believe in the position of Dai

2) why has Hidden Imam not come out to help you against the tormentors.

The Sultan is in commune with the Imam, so he should know better. From a realistic and common sense point of view, it would seem that the Imam is also colluding with the Sultan to torment abdes.

again if its wrong why is Imam not coming out to help you guys (your official position is to believe in a hidden Imam)

3) with all the new technologies available at your fingertips why are you not able to bring more people in your fold on the contrary people are leaving you by hordes.

By hordes? Technology has nothing to do with any of this. Why abdes don't join reformists is oft discussed here - and the reason are many and the chief among them is apathy and lack of courage. My friend "bohri" has brilliantly captured the bohra reality in just two words "su karsoo". So long as Bohras keep saying that and feel hopeless and helpless nothing will change.

that is so lame of an excuse to hide your reform movements failure of not attracting any new blood, you cant blame Abdes for your ineptitude.

And just to make it clear, reformists do not want Bohras to join them as such. The objective of the movement is to create awareness among bohras and awaken them so that they themselves can become the vehicles of change. The reform movement does not intend to take over the management of the community. Our aim is to encourage every Bohra and every jamat to challenge the kothar and take charge of their own affairs.

this particular para is nobel in content, but i dont know how much you guys really mean it

4)though you have cried yourself hoarse on the all the corruption in dawat but still people are lining up to pay more and more. Where have you gone wrong.

Yes we have cried ourselves hoarse, and the reason we are not heard is because abdes are paralysed by "su karsoo". You ask us "Where have we gone wrong?" If you had any intellectual or moral honesty you would direct that question to yourself and abdes. Where have you all gone wrong? What's wrong with you people that day after day you keep submitting to your tormentors!!! Nowhere in history will you find a people so spineless and so frightened, unable to lift a finger against ritual humiliation and day light robbery. What the hell is wrong with you people????

we are already in discussion that where does the wrong lies.

5) why is second generation of progs not coming in front to give any fight which their forefathers started.

How many progs do you know? But the larger point is, corruption and injustice will never go unchallenged.

I dont know many, but how many abdes you know who have tried to talk to you, i have walked my miles and have stated many a times that i want to see that their is no divide between us, but its you(and your ilk except husain Bhai) who have shown only contempt if not down right hatred.

6)almost every one in the fold believes that you guys dont exist any more, dont get delusional by few sympathizers who write on this website under diff pseudonyms.

If they believe we don't exist then it's clear who is delusional. Like they can't hear us they can't even see us. The sympathisers are our great hope and support, they will ultimately be the trigger for change. The funny thing is that you still feel the need to come here and challenge the sypathisers whom you don't consider important.

the only reason i dont consider them important is that these same guys will be laping around the amils of their jamat at the first chance they get, you guys have taken a stand and stand by it but these so called sympathizers are not worth to comment much

7) why the reform movement is a spent force as compared to when you guys started.

You would like it to be a spent force, but it is not. Our effort and our momentum is the same but we can do little against the Great Wall of "Su karsoo"!!!

Nup i dont like it to be a spent force, i have already stated that it could have been a whistelblower for corruption but in the end its dying

[aqs]

i am against corruption of any form at any level

Bro aqs,

So you admit that there is corruption in the religous establishment and you are against that in "any form at any level". Even a layman will admit that the dai is at the helm of affairs and by virtue of that HE is totally responsible for any wrongs done on his name. The only reason that he cannot name the perpetuators is that either he himself is a party to it or either he is too weak a dai. In either of the case he seems unfit for the job. And to have fear of any mortal human being other then Allah (swt) speaks volumes about his faith in Allah(swt).

I have agreed to corruption charges in the past also, but we differ over here as you blame Syedna for corruption whereas i and others believe that its more of an administrative problem, now we are not running a democracy as Humsafar would have liked

I know that abdes will come out with a lame excuse "daawat ne chalava maate chup rehvu padhe chhe", so I think that Imam Hussain (a.s.) had a far bigger following but inspite of that He raised his voice against the evil powers and fought until death. Why cant the dai follow his example and the learn from the lessons of karbala, a historical event which he encashes upon by fooling/looting his followers. Please dont give the stereo typed argument of the 3 khalifas bcoz there is enough material to prove as to how history was twisted and distorted to justify the clergy's evils.

Nup i will not say that corruption can be justified in any way and any form for whatever reasons, the money kothar has got is from Mumineen and should be used for only the welfare but you will agree that due to weakness of few individuals behavior they go for savoring money which is meant for welfare purposes, now this is a administrative issue and is takeled in the same way

[Aarif]

i have replied to this sajdah thing umpteen times and last time also you accused me in the end that for justifying it i am scratching the end of barrels, while conveniently ignoring the books i mentioned.

Is there any book above the holy Quran for a muslim? Quran clearly instructs a muslim to bow down before Allah and NO one else. The prophet (pbuh) never encouraged people to perform sajda to him or any other human beings. If it would have been so than muslims all over the world would have been following this practice. Which book is above Holy Quran and the prophet of Islam? And even if a particular book justifies sajda, would you give it more importance than the teachings of Quran???

[anajmi]

aqs,

Your replies are getting more and more non-sensical.

we dont consider him corrupt its you so thats why the question why the joke of a corrupt dai by Allah on you as officially you believe in the position of Dai

It is not a question of whether you consider him corrupt or not. If he is corrupt, then the joke is on you and not the reformists. If he is not corrupt then the joke is on the reformists. But the fact is that he is corrupt.

again if its wrong why is Imam not coming out to help you guys (your official position is to believe in a hidden Imam)

As per your logic, the Imam needs to come out of hiding either to help the reformists, if they are right, or to help the abdes, if they are right. But he isn't coming out is he? Now please don't tell me that you do not need him as the Dai is taking care of the abdes. That would mean you do not need the Imam. That would mean that the abde enslavement is complete!!

[Humsafar]

Aqs, I see no worth in point by point tit for tat. If you are interested in any meaningful conversation let us focus on specific issues and deal with them with reason and facts. But given your inbred biases and willful blindness we can't go very far with that either. But it would be worthwhile if you actually understood the objective of the reform movement. Most of your arguments against it stem from misconceptions.

The first thing that you and your fellow adbes must understand is that this reform movement is not a power struggle - we are not interested in taking over the control of the bohra community. Getting people over to our side is not our objective. Our objective is to end the religious and financial corruption in the community, and our strategy of achieving that is to a) spread awareness about all this and b) encourage bohras to do something about it. In places where reformists are in substantial numbers we have shown how we Bohras can manage our affairs with mutual respect, dignity and democracy, without the constant fear, gouging and humiliation. Our services - education, health and religious - are exemplary (and guy_sam, these are the things we can proudly boast of ). If abdes want to know what will be life like without the Kothar, they can look at us and possibly learn from us. Sure, we are not perfect but we are doing very well under the circumstances.

Now, for a moment consider that there is no reformist movement. Does that mean that there is no problem with our community? Of course not. We did not create the problems, we're just making people aware of them. Reformists are just a symptom of the disease that is plaguing us. The problem with you guys is that you are always attacking the symptom.

[aqs]

Humsafar,

as you accuse me of inbred bias and willful blindness the same yardstick applies to you also, as i cant see much wrong in the present setup you cant see any thing good, what you see is only problems.

present and last Syedna has done a lot for the community and that can be discussed and debated to no end, only problem is you dont want to acknowledge the positive changes and give any credit whatsoever and want to maintain the status quo of 50's and 60's era.

your reform movements objective are good but tell me honestly if you were running such a nice setup why the whole Udaipur episode was never copied any where else. You people could have helped more by remaining in the fold and doing the same stuff you do now, but by declaring animosity towards the Dai you created a divide with common Mumineen who treat you as Munafiq(though i dont agree with the word)

constructive criticism with solutions can serve much better then mindless attack on clergy which is serving no purpose which you might have realized now

[guy_sam2005]

bro humsafar,
Get this point very straight ,u might be able to convince many if u say reforms till local admisnistrative level,or even till shazadas(i dont agre might be some will though),but once u raise a finger at dai himself u wont have even 1 sympathiser,
we dont consider u above dai that we will let u question him............

[guy_sam2005]

and wat things u boasting bout is peanuts compared to wat moula(tus)has given us............we dont care bout wat u teach in schools or so...

[JC]

WHY, WHY, Why he wants the Life Till Qayamat???? Why even to 'ask' for it or 'pray' for it??? God has decided NOT to give immortality to ANY ONE, not to any Prophet, not to any one. Every one HAS TO DIE - as simple as that. Yes, you can say he may have healthy life but to constantly and on such a huge scale and level ask for his LONG LIFE is 'pushing' God to corner!!

NO GREAT man has wished to live longer, all wanted to meet their Creator sooner than later. So this abundantly proves how SMALL current Dai is, how ungreatful his sh**zadas are.

Mind you, God has only given liberty to Shaytan to misguide His Ummah and prmised to save Ummah Himself (and via his prophets who were mortals). So other than God, Shaytan has long life.

[Humsafar]

Aqs, I'm really at a loss to find anything that is good about the current setup (based on corruption and coercion). Will be glad know if you could point out the good things. However, there are quite a few good things about our community, namely social cohesion, unique culture and identity but unfortuantely most of this is achieved through fear and pressure. We as a people and as a community have a lot of good things - but the setup run by the Kothar to manage and control the community is a separate entity which is totally corrupt, perverse and plain evil, and is actually destroying all that was good about us - such as tolerance, liberal outlook etc.

The reason why people have not been able to emulate Udaipur is because the masters have become smarter since that revolt and have learned well to manage mass psychology. The other reason is the famous bohra funk: su karsoo. After the Galiakot incident and ensuing riots we still chose to remain in the fold but were not allowed. We were forced out. Please read up on the history of the udaipur movement. The "animosity towards the Dai" is not intentional, it's part perception and part propaganda (by the kothar). When people look at the corruption and fraud it is difficult for them to separate the prolem from the Dai. All fingers tend to point at the Dai. The buck stops with him, this is what people interpret. And they are not wrong.

Reformists have always offered constructive criticism - and we have shown what an alternative system can be like. Mindless attack - mainly on this site - is often a result of frustration and helplessness. You should cut some slack for persecuted people. They have to vent their spleen somewhere.

[Humsafar]

bro humsafar,
Get this point very straight ,u might be able to convince many if u say reforms till local admisnistrative level,or even till shazadas(i dont agre might be some will though),but once u raise a finger at dai himself u wont have even 1 sympathiser,
we dont consider u above dai that we will let u question him............

I take it that you're open to reforms at the local level. Now the question is how are you going to accomplish that? Will the Shahzada allow it? Probably not. So what do you do next? Go to Dai? In this setup is there a way to speak directly to the Dai, get his private audience? Is there a way that people can approach him directly without go-betweens and talk to him about their complaints and greivances? Can you talk to the Dai one on one? If not, why not? Think about these issues, and don't always jump to emotional and angry responses.

[Humsafar]

and wat things u boasting bout is peanuts compared to wat moula(tus)has given us............we dont care bout wat u teach in schools or so...

And what has Maula given you in terms of social services - services which are open to all, especially to the poor at a minimal rate. Besides, you have to undertand that what maula has, has been extorted from the community. You're right, what refromists have done is peanuts because our resources are limited. If had the kind money of that Maula has, we would have done wonders. Maula too can do the same and probably more if he wants. But he won't. And there lies the rub.

[like_minded]

In short.... This community has gone to dogs!!!! and I hope sooner or later people realize this!

[ghulam muhammed]

and wat things u boasting bout is peanuts compared to wat moula(tus)has given us

A typical example of "Kuva me Medak", doing tarrr tarrrr in a tiny pond as it doesnt know that there are vast oceans in existence.