Infallibility of DAI (for those who believe in him)

[profastian]

The bohra doctrine about the infallibility of the DAI, as I understand it
* Imam is infallibility and DAI is like infallible(masoom jewa, masoom ni tarah).
* Imam is intrinsically infallible. He is born infallible. He is made of 'infallible stuff'.
* The infallibility of the DAI is extrinsic or external. He derives his infallibility from the Imam, an infallible. He is not born a masoom like the Imam. (hence masoon jewa)
* Mufaddal Maula is not masoom. But he will be when/if he ascends to the throne of Dawat. (I do not get why people find this so hard to digest, people believe that the Prophet was infallible because he did everything as commanded by Allah (the infallible). DAI is infallible because he every action is by the command of the Imam(an infallible)).

[Humsafar]

Faustian, who the heck cares if the Dai is intinsically or extrinsically infallible. The fact is inspite of all this tall claims to 'infallibility' the Bohras are in a royal bloddy mess. If this is the result of infallibility, I dread to imagine the result of a fallible dai.

[profastian]

Faustian, who the heck cares if the Dai is intinsically or extrinsically infallible. The fact is inspite of all this tall claims to 'infallibility' the Bohras are in a royal bloddy mess. If this is the result of infallibility, I dread to imagine the result of a fallible dai.

Well, you should have read the topic of the thread. This is only for those who care if the dai is infallible or not

[Muslim First]

The bohra doctrine about the infallibility of the DAI, as I understand it
* Imam is infallibility and DAI is like infallible(masoom jewa, masoom ni tarah).
* Imam is intrinsically infallible. He is born infallible. He is made of 'infallible stuff'.
* The infallibility of the DAI is extrinsic or external. He derives his infallibility from the Imam, an infallible. He is not born a masoom like the Imam. (hence masoon jewa)
* Mufaddal Maula is not masoom. But he will be when/if he ascends to the throne of Dawat. (I do not get why people find this so hard to digest, people believe that the Prophet was infallible because he did everything as commanded by Allah (the infallible). DAI is infallible because he every action is by the command of the Imam(an infallible)).

What, they mix weed in dabba food?
This guy is getting whakey!!!!

[Rationalist]

The bohra doctrine about the infallibility of the DAI, as I understand it
* Imam is infallibility and DAI is like infallible(masoom jewa, masoom ni tarah).
* Imam is intrinsically infallible. He is born infallible. He is made of 'infallible stuff'.
* The infallibility of the DAI is extrinsic or external. He derives his infallibility from the Imam, an infallible. He is not born a masoom like the Imam. (hence masoon jewa)
* Mufaddal Maula is not masoom. But he will be when/if he ascends to the throne of Dawat. (I do not get why people find this so hard to digest, people believe that the Prophet was infallible because he did everything as commanded by Allah (the infallible). DAI is infallible because he every action is by the command of the Imam(an infallible)).

Where is it mentioned in the Bohra literature? Can you please cite authentic sources? Qadi al Noman narrates in Majalis al Musayraat some accounts of duat of Imam Moiz who had gone astray. How can an infallible go astray?

[bohri]

Mufaddal Maula is not masoom. But he will be when/if he ascends to the throne of Dawat.

prof - how will he ascend to the throne - will he walk, take an elevator, be lifted up or levitate. can you please ask at your next sabak? thanks!

[profastian]

The bohra doctrine about the infallibility of the DAI, as I understand it
* Imam is infallibility and DAI is like infallible(masoom jewa, masoom ni tarah).
* Imam is intrinsically infallible. He is born infallible. He is made of 'infallible stuff'.
* The infallibility of the DAI is extrinsic or external. He derives his infallibility from the Imam, an infallible. He is not born a masoom like the Imam. (hence masoon jewa)
* Mufaddal Maula is not masoom. But he will be when/if he ascends to the throne of Dawat. (I do not get why people find this so hard to digest, people believe that the Prophet was infallible because he did everything as commanded by Allah (the infallible). DAI is infallible because he every action is by the command of the Imam(an infallible)).

What, they mix weed in dabba food?
This guy is getting whakey!!!!

God help those idiots who think Islam is only about Namaz, roza and zakat.

[humanbeing]

Hi Profastian and Abdes

Dai being Like Infallible (masoom jewa), what exactly do you mean by this title ?

If I understand correctly, Dai being infallible externally, means in matter of faith, knowledge and judgment he is error free and sin free by meticulous efforts ! Follows and leads word of Islam as preached by Imam inspired from Quran (Words of God). Further If we shall not hold him liable for the corrupt actions of his appointed administrators (amils) and only consider in discussion Dai’s personal actions. Then I have just one query !

Is Hunting of Animals for pleasure, justified in Islam; by Quran or Sunna of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) or by virtues of mercy and humanity ?

[anajmi]

God help those idiots who think Islam is only about Namaz, roza and zakat.

And God help idiots who bow down before bent humans and kiss his feet.

[Rationalist]

Waiting for your reply brother profastian..

[profastian]

Qadi al Noman narrates in Majalis al Musayraat some accounts of duat of Imam Moiz who had gone astray. How can an infallible go astray?

If you had read the Majalis well, you should have known that there is a difference between the Duats during the Imam's presence and the Duat Mutlaq during Satr. No one is infallible except the Imam. And the Duats of Satr derive their infallibility because the occupy the seat of the Imam. They are infallible only because all their actions are guided by the Imam( an infallible) .

[humanbeing]

Qadi al Noman narrates in Majalis al Musayraat some accounts of duat of Imam Moiz who had gone astray. How can an infallible go astray?

If you had read the Majalis well, you should have known that there is a difference between the Duats during the Imam's presence and the Duat Mutlaq during Satr. No one is infallible except the Imam. And the Duats of Satr derive their infallibility because the occupy the seat of the Imam. They are infallible only because all their actions are guided by the Imam( an infallible) .

Does it mean that, Dais during the times of Imam’s presence, could be fallible ? although they obeyed orders from Imam and were groomed / guided by present Imam themselves. But after the seclusion of Imam, Dai becomes infallible although Dai are still guided by Imam in seclusion.

Imam has always been present and known on face of the earth to the Dai. Imams have been guiding since inception of Dais. So Imam-in-presence or Imam-in-seclusion doesn’t matter to Dai. Its only the commoners who are not privileged to know identity of Imam-uz-zamans.

So in that case, how come some Dai in presence of Imam could be fallible .. and some in seclusion of Imam are infallible !!!

[profastian]

If you had read the Majalis well, you should have known that there is a difference between the Duats during the Imam's presence and the Duat Mutlaq during Satr. No one is infallible except the Imam. And the Duats of Satr derive their infallibility because the occupy the seat of the Imam. They are infallible only because all their actions are guided by the Imam( an infallible) .

Does it mean that, Dais during the times of Imam’s presence, could be fallible ? although they obeyed orders from Imam and were groomed / guided by present Imam themselves. But after the seclusion of Imam, Dai becomes infallible although Dai are still guided by Imam in seclusion.

Imam has always been present and known on face of the earth to the Dai. Imams have been guiding since inception of Dais. So Imam-in-presence or Imam-in-seclusion doesn’t matter to Dai. Its only the commoners who are not privileged to know identity of Imam-uz-zamans.

So in that case, how come some Dai in presence of Imam could be fallible .. and some in seclusion of Imam are infallible !!!

A teacher(Imam) could guide a student(Dai-Zuhoor) as best as he could but he might still not be able to prevent him from erring. The relationship between the Duat-ul-Mutlaq(Satr) and the Imam is much more than that of a guide and a student. There is a one to one correspondence between the actions of the Dai(Satr) and the Imam. Every action of the DAI is the action of the Imam, who is an infallible, hence the DAI cannot err.
Of course, all of this is relevant if you believe in the Imam and the DAI, and the hierarchy of ranks in the bohra theology, in the first place.

[anajmi]

Can you quote an ayah from the Quran that says that your Dai is infallible? Can you also quote an ayah from the Quran that the Imam is in hiding and that he is also infallible?

[Rationalist]

Qadi al Noman narrates in Majalis al Musayraat some accounts of duat of Imam Moiz who had gone astray. How can an infallible go astray?

If you had read the Majalis well, you should have known that there is a difference between the Duats during the Imam's presence and the Duat Mutlaq during Satr. No one is infallible except the Imam. And the Duats of Satr derive their infallibility because the occupy the seat of the Imam. They are infallible only because all their actions are guided by the Imam( an infallible) .

There is no mention of Duat of Satri in Al Majalis Musayraat.
What evidence you have to prove the infallibility of Duat of Satr, ofcourse from bohra literature?
Shias usually prove the infallibility of Aimat from the Quranic Verse: Allah only desires to keep away uncleanness from you, O People of the House, and to purify you with a thorough purification. 33:33
Moreover, Qadi al Noman has numerous times mentioned it in his books, like, in the beginning of the book Sharh al Akhbar he says:
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم الحمدلله رب العالمين، والصلاة والسلام على أفضل رسله و اشرف بريته أبي القاسم محمد، وعلى آله الطيبين الطاهرين المعصومين

And is this infallibility strictly limited to the Duat of Imam Tayyeb? What about the Duat of three Imams after Imam Ismail who went into seclusion, did they have this infallibility too?

Also how does the Imam guide the dai, is it in physical form or spiritual?

Please do mention your sources.

[humanbeing]

Hi Profastian

Thanks for taking part in the discussion.

all of this is relevant if you believe in the Imam and the DAI, and the hierarchy of ranks in the bohra theology, in the first place.

In my knowledge, what I have understood the hierarchy of ranks in Bohra theology from history is :

Imam-Uz-Zaman
(King / Monarch / Ruler)
|
Dai Dai Dai Dai
(Finance) (Justice) (Proselytize Missionary) (Education)
/ \
Mazoon Mukasir

Committee of Dai are allotted geographical regions to preach Islam, control, regulate and administer affairs under the guidance / obedience / allegiance of Imam.

Depending on the Qualification and grooming of the Dai by Imam, portfolios of responsibilities are allotted such as Education, Secular Rituals, Proselytizing Mission, Finance, Justice, etc.

Each Dai have assistant as Mazoon and Mukasir, helping Dai to conduct mission (proselytise) to Islam and administer converted / existing populace.

Please correct me if I m wrong in my understanding.

A teacher(Imam) could guide a student(Dai-Zuhoor) as best as he could but he might still not be able to prevent him from erring. The relationship between the Duat-ul-Mutlaq(Satr) and the Imam is much more than that of a guide and a student. There is a one to one correspondence between the actions of the Dai(Satr) and the Imam. Every action of the DAI is the action of the Imam, who is an infallible, hence the DAI cannot err.

As I mentioned earlier,

Imam-in-presence or Imam-in-seclusion doesn’t matter to Dai. Its only the commoners who are not privileged to know identity of Imam-uz-zamans. How does relationship of Imam and Dai become much more than guide and a student ! if it is much more:

Than how do you define much more relationship ?

Did Dai and Imam-in-presence did not have one to one correspondence earlier ?

[progticide]

Imam-in-presence or Imam-in-seclusion doesn’t matter to Dai. Its only the commoners who are not privileged to know identity of Imam-uz-zamans. How does relationship of Imam and Dai become much more than guide and a student ! if it is much more:

Than how do you define much more relationship ?

Did Dai and Imam-in-presence did not have one to one correspondence earlier ?

During the period of Zuhoor (Kashf) of the Imam, the Dai (at various levels) is the representative of the Imam while final authority in matters of dawat is solely with the Imam of the time.

During the period of Satr (when Imam is in seclusion), Dai-e-Mutlaq is not merely representative but the proof (Hujjat) of the Imam in public and also holds complete authority in matters of dawat delegated to successive dais through the process of Nass.

Hope this answers.

[humanbeing]

Hi Progiticde

Yes ! that answers my query to some extent.

Dai holding complete authority at the time of Imam-in-seclusion, this authority is downward towards commoners in managing their affairs in religious beliefs.

However final authority remains in the hands of Imam-uz-Zaman in Seclusion. So as said earlier, every action of Dai is guided / instructed / approved by Imam-in-seclusion.

I m no expert or pious in religious tenets, so expressing my queries limited to administrative and justice issues in the community. Imam is considered a righteous, compassionate, learned and just ruler of his followers. Any atrocity, crime and injustice in matters of finance, ethics and treatment is dealt and justice shall be done by Imam publicly to express the wisdom and righteousness of Ruler Imam. This principles are also groomed into Dai, and on behalf of Imam, shall represent this values in dealing with administrative issues in the community today.

I don’t know what happened in day to day lives of Fatimid shiaas in last 800 years. But what I know and will have queries is what is happening in front of my eyes today.

Accepting the concept of Infallibility of Dai, without error and without sin, which would be judged as per guidelines in the Quran. Also accepting the immunity from actions of corrupt amils appointed in good faith by Sayedna Saheb and considering only personal actions of Sayedna Saheb Please justify my following queries :

• Hunting of Animals for Pleasure / sport / decoration acceptable ?

• What does Inaction on reported cases of Religious fund embezzlement express ? If this is untrue, please enlist steps of justice and punitive measures taken by sayedna saheb to provide justice.

• Act of kadambosi is reserved for Authority of Dai and above, then shehzadas of sayedna saheb are allowing their kadambosi under what justification? Shehzada of Sayedna saheb are addressed as Maula Maula by euphoric public during the majlis, how does Sayedna Saheb allow distorting of such titles ? Please note Shehzada of Sayedna Saheb does not hold any supreme leadership position other than as appointed amils by sayedna saheb.

Please provide your views !

[progticide]

Hi Progiticde

Accepting the concept of Infallibility of Dai, without error and without sin, which would be judged as per guidelines in the Quran. Also accepting the immunity from actions of corrupt amils appointed in good faith by Sayedna Saheb and considering only personal actions of Sayedna Saheb Please justify my following queries :

• Hunting of Animals for Pleasure / sport / decoration acceptable ?

• What does Inaction on reported cases of Religious fund embezzlement express ? If this is untrue, please enlist steps of justice and punitive measures taken by sayedna saheb to provide justice.

• Act of kadambosi is reserved for Authority of Dai and above, then shehzadas of sayedna saheb are allowing their kadambosi under what justification? Shehzada of Sayedna saheb are addressed as Maula Maula by euphoric public during the majlis, how does Sayedna Saheb allow distorting of such titles ? Please note Shehzada of Sayedna Saheb does not hold any supreme leadership position other than as appointed amils by sayedna saheb.

Please provide your views !

Human Being,
Your problem is that you are asking right questions, but at a wrong place. No one here (including me ) can provide any authoritative answers to your questions. I m neither a media manager for DBs nor hold any authority on dawat and religious matters, so posing question to me or any other person on this forum is futile. But still let me answer your questions in my own right with compulsorily my own views. Other mainstream DBs may too try if they like:
• Hunting of Animals for Pleasure / sport / decoration acceptable ? Yes, acceptable to me, Period. If you have a problem with this hunting then I suggest next time you take a placard yourself and start a protest march to the UN office.



• What does Inaction on reported cases of Religious fund embezzlement express ? If this is untrue, please enlist steps of justice and punitive measures taken by sayedna saheb to provide justice. Tu to aise ro raha he jaise kisine teri jeb se paisa nikaal liya ho. Before asking for accountabiity ask yourself have you paid every penny due on you as per the Shariat viz: wajebat, sabeel, silah-fitra, khums, silatul Imam etc.. Dusre ke paap ka hisaab maangne se pehle apne ghirebaan mein jhaakon.


• Act of kadambosi is reserved for Authority of Dai and above, then shehzadas of sayedna saheb are allowing their kadambosi under what justification? Shehzada of Sayedna saheb are addressed as Maula Maula by euphoric public during the majlis, how does Sayedna Saheb allow distorting of such titles ? Please note Shehzada of Sayedna Saheb does not hold any supreme leadership position other than as appointed amils by sayedna saheb. Who has asked you to do kadambasi of any other person. If you dont want to do, dont do. No one is pushing you into feet-kissing. It is a matter of personal choice. And for your information, the word "Maula" meaning "Master" is not reserved for any specific person or entity. For example, God could also be addressed as Maula, Prophet can also be addressed as Maula and any saint can also be addressed as Maula.

[humanbeing]

Yes, acceptable to me, Period. If you have a problem with this hunting then I suggest next time you take a placard yourself and start a protest march to the UN office.

Thanks ! I appreciate your response ! Very Profound.

. Tu to aise ro raha he jaise kisine teri jeb se paisa nikaal liya ho. Before asking for accountabiity ask yourself have you paid every penny due on you as per the Shariat viz: wajebat, sabeel, silah-fitra, khums, silatul Imam etc..

Good Morning Progiticide ! I pay Sabeel, wajebaat and other hoobs (masalla space, muharam seatings, development schemes) exhorted out of me. I have paid in good faith that, this money is going in better / bigger good of the community Instead its gone into the bigger / fatter tummy of the corrupt amil and sheikh appointed by sayedna saheb,

Dusre ke paap ka hiasab maangne se pehle apne ghirebaan mein jhaakon.

Please give this piece of advise to your masters too !! before they emotionally blackmail, brain wash and cajole to pay wajebaats as arbitarily demanded by your masters.,

. Who has asked you to do kadambasi of any other person. If you dont want to do, dont do. No one is pushing you into feet-kissing. It is a matter of personal choice. And for your information, the word "Maula" meaning "Master" is not reserved for any specific person or entity. For example, God could also be addressed as Maula, Prophet can also be addressed as Maula and any saint can also be addressed as Maula.

Whether I do feet kissing or not … is not the essence of discussion at this forum, Niether I expressed or agreed that I was forced for any kadambosi, I presented my query as observing the state of affairs in the community.

So Shehzada are your masters ? by what virtue, qualification and position you consider Shehzada as your master !!

Please enlighten me, So that I don’t miss out on the shanaat of shehzadaa and not miss out next time, I get an opportunity to kiss their feet and shout maula maulaa ! Please enlighten me, I take back my query !!! please …

[anajmi]

Yes, acceptable to me, Period.

That is a true sign of moral decay. When that which is haraam becomes halaal, the community becomes cursed. We can see that state of the abdes and cannot think of anything other than them being cursed.